ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => Archived Threads => Topic started by: Weogo Reed on January 14, 2010, 08:31:08 pm

Title: the little wedge that could
Post by: Weogo Reed on January 14, 2010, 08:31:08 pm
Hi Y'all,

For almost a year now I've been using a wedge with a 15" BMS 15C682 coax imported by Jack Arnott at Assistance Audio.
The box is from Assistance Audio's Live Sound Division, and only the components are available for purchase, not the boxes.

http://www.assistanceaudio.com/02_coaxials.html

It has an excellent, low-loss, passive crossover designed by Curtis List "Too Tall".  
The crossover design comes with the coax, or Curtis can build crossovers for you.

The complete wedge weighs about 35#.  The 15" neo coax is about 11.5#, and the crossover is over 7#.
The box has a dual-angle design with 35 and 55 degree tilt angles.
The foam-backed stainless steel grill is a nice touch.

This wedge is a monster.
It goes quite loud on modest power.(Am regularly using a QSC CX404 for four monitor mixes, 250 watts/channel.)
I can put this wedge in front of deaf Louisiana Accordion players, bring it up and have them smile.
A local Mandolin player who is hard of hearing loves this box.  He plays with a pickup and a mic, and I can get lots of pickup AND mic in the wedge.
This wedge requires very little, if any EQ.

Coverage is fairly tight, but the 'sweet spot' of best sound isn't a tight bullet.
The wedge will cover two musicians who are close together.

The box is smaller, and much lighter, than some 12" wedges I have used.
Being passively crossed and only needing one amp channel also contributes to the lightweight theme.

For those looking for a high-clarity, high-output box in a compact, lightweight package, I suggest you consider this.


Continuing the BMS theme, I will soon have a pair of boxes with the 12" BMS 12CN680 coax from Jack Arnott,
with
crossovers designed by Curtis List,
and
boxes by John Halliburton.    j_challiburton@sbcglobal.net    cell:  847-971-0462
John's main objective is to help develop cabinet designs, prototype them, and then
offer production at a fully outfitted CNC shop he has been working with: WW Displays:  
http://www.ww-speakercabinets.com/

I'll report on these boxes after using them for a while.

http://bmsspeakers.com/cone-speaker-compression-driver/bms-c oaxial-transducers/bms-coaxial-neodymium-transducer/bms-12cn 680-coaxial-transducer/12cn680-coaxial-transducer-intro/


Thanks to Jack Arnott, Curtis List and John Halliburton for their commitment to high quality audio!

Good health,  Weogo Reed
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Lee Brenkman on January 14, 2010, 09:38:19 pm
Weogo,

You say that John Halliburton is designing the cabinets for the 12 inch coax monitors and it would appear that the same folks who fabricate JTS speaker cabinets will build them.

But...

Who designed the boxes for your 15 inch monitors and where did you get the cabinets made?

cheers,
lee
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Grant Conklin on January 14, 2010, 09:49:18 pm
Do you have any pics of the monitors?
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: John Halliburton on January 14, 2010, 10:38:20 pm
Grant Conklin wrote on Thu, 14 January 2010 20:49

Do you have any pics of the monitors?


I took some of the new 12" protoype shipping to Weogo:
index.php/fa/27393/0/

A bit of a detail view at a 3/4 angle.  Speakons on both ends, dual angle for sitting or standing performers, pole cup for use as a small main speaker, and the single large metal edge mounted handle.  A metal grill can be mounted on the front, and it will have a gentle arc.

It's a compact little brute, and surprised me with the warm low end response.  It does have a great midrange characteristic that should make it very nice for a monitor.

There are two of them shipping out tomorrow to Weogo for beta testing.  

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Weogo Reed on January 14, 2010, 11:38:06 pm
Hi Lee and Grant,

The 15" is in a short-run box from Jack Arnott at Assistance Audio.

I need a place to post pics....
Can snap them and e-mail to anybody interested.

weogoreed at bellsouth dot net

Thanks and good health,  Weogo
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Charlie Zureki on January 15, 2010, 06:44:54 am
  I think I want to purchase a pair.

 Let me know when you start shipping.

  Thank You,

  Hammer
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: John Halliburton on January 15, 2010, 08:41:14 am
Charlie Zureki wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 05:44

  I think I want to purchase a pair.

 Let me know when you start shipping.

  Thank You,

  Hammer


Thanks Hammer, Curtis will have a prototype back at his shop in a week or so.  Jack has a working unit but not an exact match to the beta unit pictured, and I'll probably be building one for him as well.

Perhaps you can audition the one at Curtis' place first.  I am not sure what the game plan is for the beta pair once Weogo has them, but I would hope they make the rounds.  Here's another shot straight on looking at the baffle.  The dimensions 18.5" x 15.5".
index.php/fa/27402/0/

Best regards,

John

Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Grant Conklin on January 15, 2010, 09:12:27 am
I'm a fan of this design.  There are very few speakers out there that incorporate all of these design elements, particularly with a real horn.  If it were powered and under $1000, it would have even more applications.  
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 15, 2010, 11:01:58 am
Is there a regular woofer that matches these coax woofers? I'm thinking a PAS style drum fill would be kickin'.....

Or, for that matter it could be a FOH cabinet too. A double 12 plus horn where the top driver is a coax would definitely be an eye opener.
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Bennett Prescott on January 15, 2010, 11:38:24 am
Weogo,

The 12" that we got to play around with at the Wedge-Fest a century ago (or was it 2006?) was very impressive. Considering the same people are involved, the 15" is surely fantastic bang for the buck.

Here's Trace taking one apart to find out how they fit all that noise in that little box...
http://www.bennettprescott.com/images/wedgefest/index-Thumbnails/56.jpg

I know I'm not supposed to talk about boxes, but hopefully I'm allowed to praise the work of some fellow LABsters...
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Adam Whetham on January 15, 2010, 12:16:03 pm
Wow, John do you have some spec's like weight and dimensions on these guys?? I'm interested in the 12" for across the front of our bands stage and the 15 for our drummer who has a digital kit.

Whats the power rating on the 15 and 12 respectively?

Do you have some pricing lined up? If you need to please PM me. I love the Coax design.
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 15, 2010, 12:36:44 pm
Link was in the OP...

http://www.assistanceaudio.com/02_coaxials.html
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: John Chiara on January 15, 2010, 12:44:38 pm
Bennett Prescott wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 11:38

Weogo,

The 12" that we got to play around with at the Wedge-Fest a century ago (or was it 2006?) was very impressive. Considering the same people are involved, the 15" is surely fantastic bang for the buck.

Here's Trace taking one apart to find out how they fit all that noise in that little box...
http://www.bennettprescott.com/images/wedgefest/index-Thumbnails/56.jpg

I know I'm not supposed to talk about boxes, but hopefully I'm allowed to praise the work of some fellow LABsters...


Please note the high tech screw driver!
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: John Halliburton on January 15, 2010, 01:11:39 pm
Adam Whetham wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 11:16

Wow, John do you have some spec's like weight and dimensions on these guys?? I'm interested in the 12" for across the front of our bands stage and the 15 for our drummer who has a digital kit.

Whats the power rating on the 15 and 12 respectively?

Do you have some pricing lined up? If you need to please PM me. I love the Coax design.


The front dimensions I gave in the earlier post.  Overall depth at the longest point is just under 15".  The height when on stage as a monitor is about the same at the highest point.

Weight was just shy of 40lbs on a UPS scale.  This cabinet is all 18mm Baltic Birch and shot with Line-X.

Jack will have to chime in with the differentiation of the driver models to confirm or correct me, but I believe the 15" Weogo has now is a prior design, without the molded horn.

Adam, thanks for the interest.  I'm working on production estimates and tweaking the drawing a bit today, and should have some idea on cabinet costs in a week or two.  I had suggested to others via pm to see about getting these beta units circulating on a road test for a few weeks while the production work gets organized.  I'd like to be able to get an initial run of cabinets done as opposed to building singles by hand(fun for the prototypes, not fun for production).

Bennett, thanks for the compliment.

Stay tuned,

John
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Weogo Reed on January 15, 2010, 02:01:29 pm
Hi John,

To clarify, the 15" I have has a 60 degree horn.

I believe it is the same or very similar to the 15CN682:
http://bmsspeakers.com/cone-speaker-compression-driver/bms-c oaxial-transducers/bms-coaxial-neodymium-transducer/bms-15cn 682-coaxial-transducer/15cn682-coaxial-transducer-intro/

The older AA12 coax does not have a horn,
the new, all-BMS ones have a 60x80 horn.

Thanks and good health,  Weogo
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Weogo Reed on January 15, 2010, 02:22:03 pm
Hi Bennett and All,

High praise indeed from Mr. Eona/ADR!

In addition to the 15" box, I have also been trying the older AA12 boxes you heard with the custom Ciare 12" and BMS 1".  As you note, very impressive.  
On paper(well mostly in e-mails) the new all-BMS 12" wedge looks even better - more power, goes lower.

1) For a wedge, my first concern is sound quality.
With better wedges, musicians hear themselves clearly at lower overall volume, everybody wins.
The BMS 12" and 15" woofers have triple shorting rings and very low mid-range distortion.
The 1" HF drivers have an excellent reputation for clarity.

2) I want a box with an analog crossover to eliminate the delay of DSP processing.  Am already adding some delay with a digital mixer.
Too Tall's crossovers with excellent design and high quality materials have a chance to shine with this driver.

3) Modest size and weight, in a well-built box, are obvious pluses.
John went through SEVERAL prototypes to get to a box that of modest size, with a useful, pleasing design.

}
Adam, I have used the 15" as a drum-fill.  If I did more R&R I would definitely want one of these for that purpose.


}
For Tim, asking about mating the BMS coax to a BMS woofer for more low-mid output:
BMS does have similar Neo 12" and 15" woofers.  Jack will have the best information on the best matches.
The triaxial BMS 15CN860F has to be a contender for the ultimate in high-output in a very compact, lightweight package.
Can you imagine this driver in a wedge?!?!
I wonder about this driver in a symmetrical, Danley SH50-style box, that would allow constructive left/right and up/down arraying...
Since the 1" BMS can be crossed so much lower than most other 1" drivers, a coax can meet my wedge needs.

Thanks and good health,  Weogo
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 15, 2010, 02:56:27 pm
Does Assistance carry the 12CN680 yet? And at what price?
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Adam Whetham on January 15, 2010, 04:03:27 pm
Tim Weaver wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 10:01

Is there a regular woofer that matches these coax woofers? I'm thinking a PAS style drum fill would be kickin'.....

Or, for that matter it could be a FOH cabinet too. A double 12 plus horn where the top driver is a coax would definitely be an eye opener.


I see i'm not the only one that had some love for the 2.2's design with coax components... their little SW2.2 was a killer little guy with the built in amp also.

Thanks for the info John, Didn't see the previous dimensions. That is a nice compact guy...
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Too Tall (Curtis H. List) on January 15, 2010, 05:29:37 pm
Adam Whetham wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 12:16

Wow, John do you have some spec's like weight and dimensions on these guys?? I'm interested in the 12" for across the front of our bands stage and the 15 for our drummer who has a digital kit.

Whats the power rating on the 15 and 12 respectively?

Do you have some pricing lined up? If you need to please PM me. I love the Coax design.


Hi,
Here is the 12" coax that Weogo will be beta testing soon-

http://www.bmspro.info/

http://bmsspeakers.com/cone-speaker-compression-driver/bms-c oaxial-transducers/bms-coaxial-neodymium-transducer/bms-12cn 680-coaxial-transducer/12cn680-coaxial-transducer-intro/

No pricing till the beta testing is done.
Thanks
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Greg Cameron on January 15, 2010, 07:06:44 pm
How do you propose dealing with covering/protecting the driver with that waveguide protruding? Seems like it sticks out quite a bit.

Greg
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Art Welter on January 15, 2010, 07:20:16 pm
Greg Cameron wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 17:06

How do you propose dealing with covering/protecting the driver with that waveguide protruding? Seems like it sticks out quite a bit.

Greg


Makes it easier to know where to drop your beer Laughing

John Haliburton said in a previous post:
"A metal grill can be mounted on the front, and it will have a gentle arc."

   
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Greg Cameron on January 15, 2010, 07:27:26 pm
The problem with just a basic grill with an arc is that it will need to be reinforced as if someone stands on it, it's going to press against the waveguide when it flexes. And you know someone is going to stand on it Wink It seems like some type of perpendicular ribbing would be required on the to make it really strong. It will be interesting to see can be done.

Greg
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Weogo Reed on January 16, 2010, 10:05:37 am
Hi Greg,

You point out a real concern.
A bit hard to see in the pictures, but there are arced supports either side of the speaker to support the grill.

The grill for the 15" sits in top and bottom grooves, and has never been flexed down near the 60 degree horn.

I built an, ahem, 'custom' tool of plywood with properly spaced finish nail heads protruding a little bit to grab and remove the grill so I could look inside!

Thanks and good health,  Weogo  
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on January 16, 2010, 06:07:46 pm
Greg Cameron wrote on Sat, 16 January 2010 01:27

The problem with just a basic grill with an arc is that it will need to be reinforced as if someone stands on it, it's going to press against the waveguide when it flexes. And you know someone is going to stand on it Wink It seems like some type of perpendicular ribbing would be required on the to make it really strong. It will be interesting to see can be done.

Greg


Wouldn't this be very close in design to the Microwedge?  
They are stand-proof.
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: John Halliburton on January 16, 2010, 06:32:10 pm
There are, as Weogo pointed out, cleats on the sides of the driver to attach the grill.  If I need more, I'll incorporate some extra acnhoring points along the other two sides.  As the grill will only be about 15" square, if made in a sufficient guage, I'm anticipating it will be strong enough as it sits.

If not, then that's why these are beta test units.

Best regards,

John
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Greg Cameron on January 16, 2010, 06:51:08 pm
Kristian Johnsen wrote on Sat, 16 January 2010 15:07

Greg Cameron wrote on Sat, 16 January 2010 01:27

The problem with just a basic grill with an arc is that it will need to be reinforced as if someone stands on it, it's going to press against the waveguide when it flexes. And you know someone is going to stand on it Wink It seems like some type of perpendicular ribbing would be required on the to make it really strong. It will be interesting to see can be done.

Greg


Wouldn't this be very close in design to the Microwedge?  
They are stand-proof.


The waveguide in the MicroWedge is very small and under the dust cap of the woofer. It uses the cone as a continuation of the guide. So in that case, there is no protrusion of the waveguide. The profile is the same as a plane woofer.

Greg
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on January 16, 2010, 07:15:17 pm
Greg Cameron wrote on Sun, 17 January 2010 00:51

Kristian Johnsen wrote on Sat, 16 January 2010 15:07

Greg Cameron wrote on Sat, 16 January 2010 01:27

The problem with just a basic grill with an arc is that it will need to be reinforced as if someone stands on it, it's going to press against the waveguide when it flexes. And you know someone is going to stand on it Wink It seems like some type of perpendicular ribbing would be required on the to make it really strong. It will be interesting to see can be done.

Greg


Wouldn't this be very close in design to the Microwedge?  
They are stand-proof.


The waveguide in the MicroWedge is very small and under the dust cap of the woofer. It uses the cone as a continuation of the guide. So in that case, there is no protrusion of the waveguide. The profile is the same as a plane woofer.

Greg



That's all fine, but also kinda theoretical, since the grille on the Microwedge is designed especially to be stood on without buckling.  So my point was that if they found a way to manage that, so should the OP  Smile
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Jim McKeveny on January 17, 2010, 08:15:57 am
Arched metal alone is orders of magnitude stronger than flat metal. If the end-user needs "boot-proof" grilles, a step up to 14 gauge perforated sheet should do the trick. "Mook-proof" is another story...
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Jack Arnott on January 25, 2010, 01:19:41 pm
Tim Weaver wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 09:01

Is there a regular woofer that matches these coax woofers? I'm thinking a PAS style drum fill would be kickin'.....

Or, for that matter it could be a FOH cabinet too. A double 12 plus horn where the top driver is a coax would definitely be an eye opener.


Hello Tim,
The BMS 12N620 is a close match to the coaxial.
I have a friend who has done the drum monitor thing with 2 12" + 12"/1" coaxial. It was quite fun.

The potential down side to this coaxial and the 12N620 is that they have 3" VCs. So more appropriate might be the coaxial full range, and another cone that is on a separate aux for drum subs.
I have done that, but not with all the components in one box.

Regards, Jack
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Jack Arnott on January 25, 2010, 01:43:20 pm
Bennett Prescott wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 09:38

Weogo,

I know I'm not supposed to talk about boxes, but hopefully I'm allowed to praise the work of some fellow LABsters...


Hello Bennett,

I see this quite differently.
(You are allowed to flap your gums, figuratively speaking, about guns and alcohol, so why not contribute in you live sound field of expertese?) Laughing

No, really. If that is your thought then I think you are being too passive. I think that if you let people know up front that you represent ADRaudio, and you do on your tag line, that you can even pipe in on anything that would be appropriate for others use.
(What is the best sounding rig for my kick drum?)

So your experience with using and selling boxes makes you an invaluable contributor to this forum. Share it.

Regards, Jack
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Jack Arnott on January 25, 2010, 01:45:35 pm
Tim Weaver wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 12:56

Does Assistance carry the 12CN680 yet? And at what price?


Hello Tim,
Yes we do have it.
Cost is $411.00 ea.

Regards, Jack Arnott
Assistance Audio
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Jack Arnott on January 25, 2010, 01:49:19 pm
Art Welter wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 17:20

Greg Cameron wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 17:06

How do you propose dealing with covering/protecting the driver with that waveguide protruding? Seems like it sticks out quite a bit.

Greg


Makes it easier to know where to drop your beer Laughing
   



Agreed, Art!

Recently there was a person on the radio talking about mental nudges. EG, painting spiders on the back side of urinals, so that subconsciously the user will have a target.

In this case just a cone alone would have more surface area to collect the beer, but with the added benefit of the horn, I'm sure that even drunk, more beer could be "collected".

Regards, Jack
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Winston Gamble on January 25, 2010, 05:06:33 pm
We have been extremely happy with the 3 wedges I built using the original Assistance Audio 12" coaxial and Too Tall's crossovers. While you can see that not as much skill went into box design and construction in my case... Confused
I can report that everyone that stands in front of them praises their sound which supports the notion that by buying complimentary and well designed components, even a part time DIYer like me can wind up with high quality sound for a very reasonable price.
Winston
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/lifeloverwg/AssistanceCoaxMonitor.jpg
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Chris Van Duker on January 25, 2010, 05:16:27 pm
Wow, funny. I built 8 coax wedges that look almost exactly like Winston's. I used B&C 15CX40's, though.

-Chris
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 25, 2010, 06:15:04 pm
Hi Winston-

Jack took a side trip to Wichita while crossing the USA on the Assistance Audio Roadshow, and I got to hear several products.

I liked the wedge a lot.  It had a voicing I liked, and I found it very clear without being too in-your-face.

If you get a chance, listen to Jack's other speakers.  I think you'll like them.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Too Tall (Curtis H. List) on January 25, 2010, 07:32:02 pm
Tim Weaver wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 11:01

Is there a regular woofer that matches these coax woofers? I'm thinking a PAS style drum fill would be kickin'.....

Or, for that matter it could be a FOH cabinet too. A double 12 plus horn where the top driver is a coax would definitely be an eye opener.



Tim Weaver wrote on Fri, 15 January 2010 11:01

Is there a regular woofer that matches these coax woofers? I'm thinking a PAS style drum fill would be kickin'.....

Or, for that matter it could be a FOH cabinet too. A double 12 plus horn where the top driver is a coax would definitely be an eye opener.


When you add drivers so you have two or more woofers you have some design choices to make.
Do you want the extra driver to add SPL output with the same low end extension?
Or the same or less SPL output, but lower frequency response?

If you add a “similar” woofer you can gain as much as 6dB, as long as you do not exceed the output of the compression driver and horn.
You would cross both woofers over at the same frequency (4th order 1kHz to 2kHz)

To get more low frequency extension the woofer you’re adding will not have as high a sensitivity.
So the entire speaker goes down in sensitivity.
In this case one woofer might be crossed as low as 100Hz. Or if you use a 2nd order or 1st order as high as 500Hz. It depends where the mid woofer rolls off naturally.

Note that the actual solution might be much more complicated. These are just some examples in principle.

In other words louder or lower, but not both.

You can get more low end out of paralleled woofer pair (both at 1kHz) just because each driver is seeing half the load. You might be able to EQ in some lows, but you must know and respect where the box is tuned if it happens to be ported. Keep the EQ above the tuning.

The 12680 box is tuned very low for that driver and how small the box volume is.

If you blow into a vocal mic the driver will not jump. I tried this with a SM58 and a Audix OM-7vocal mic.

But when I switched to a wide band condenser that goes below 30Hz (AT-813) when I blew into the mic the driver jumped like you expect.
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Winston Gamble on January 25, 2010, 07:36:08 pm
Tim McCulloch wrote on Mon, 25 January 2010 23:15

Hi Winston-

Jack took a side trip to Wichita while crossing the USA on the Assistance Audio Roadshow, and I got to hear several products.

I liked the wedge a lot.  It had a voicing I liked, and I found it very clear without being too in-your-face.

If you get a chance, listen to Jack's other speakers.  I think you'll like them.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

I get to hear them somewhat regularly since we are both in SLC. Sometimes I'm just listening and sometimes mixing and listening.

Winston
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Too Tall (Curtis H. List) on January 25, 2010, 08:29:53 pm
Weogo Reed wrote on Thu, 14 January 2010 20:31

Hi Y'all,

For almost a year now I've been using a wedge with a 15" BMS 15C682 coax imported by Jack Arnott at Assistance Audio.
The box is from Assistance Audio's Live Sound Division, and only the components are available for purchase, not the boxes.

http://www.assistanceaudio.com/02_coaxials.html

It has an excellent, low-loss, passive crossover designed by Curtis List "Too Tall".  
The crossover design comes with the coax, or Curtis can build crossovers for you.

The complete wedge weighs about 35#.  The 15" neo coax is about 11.5#, and the crossover is over 7#.
The box has a dual-angle design with 35 and 55 degree tilt angles.
The foam-backed stainless steel grill is a nice touch.

This wedge is a monster.
It goes quite loud on modest power.(Am regularly using a QSC CX404 for four monitor mixes, 250 watts/channel.)
I can put this wedge in front of deaf Louisiana Accordion players, bring it up and have them smile.
A local Mandolin player who is hard of hearing loves this box.  He plays with a pickup and a mic, and I can get lots of pickup AND mic in the wedge.
This wedge requires very little, if any EQ.

Coverage is fairly tight, but the 'sweet spot' of best sound isn't a tight bullet.
The wedge will cover two musicians who are close together.

The box is smaller, and much lighter, than some 12" wedges I have used.
Being passively crossed and only needing one amp channel also contributes to the lightweight theme.

For those looking for a high-clarity, high-output box in a compact, lightweight package, I suggest you consider this.


Continuing the BMS theme, I will soon have a pair of boxes with the 12" BMS 12CN680 coax from Jack Arnott,
with
crossovers designed by Curtis List,
and
boxes by John Halliburton.    j_challiburton@sbcglobal.net    cell:  847-971-0462
John's main objective is to help develop cabinet designs, prototype them, and then
offer production at a fully outfitted CNC shop he has been working with: WW Displays:  
http://www.ww-speakercabinets.com/

I'll report on these boxes after using them for a while.

 http://bmsspeakers.com/cone-speaker-compression-driver/bms-c  oaxial-transducers/bms-coaxial-neodymium-transducer/bms-12cn 680-coaxial-transducer/12cn680-coaxial-transducer-intro/


Thanks to Jack Arnott, Curtis List and John Halliburton for their commitment to high quality audio!

Good health,  Weogo Reed



Here are the polars for the two speakers.

index.php/fa/27629/0/


The top is the 15C680 with a 60 degree conical horn.
The xover point is 1400Hz. You can see a flare from 1500Hz to 2400Hz where it goes from about 60 degrees to 120 degrees.
A good guess is the horn can no longer support it.

I could have made the xover point higher, but I like it as low as possible since the BMS compression driver sounds better then any cone woofer.

The bottom is the 12CN680 that Weogo just received for beta testing.

The specs are a 80 and 60 degree.
The polar above is for the horizontal 80 degree. My polar says -6dB at about 70 degrees.
It is very consistent from 1800Hz to 12.5kHz.
The "flare" is very narrow and not a great increase of dispersion.

I admit to spending more time on the xover to make that flare as small as possible.
The xover point ended up at 1400Hz with fewer parts then typical.
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Art Welter on January 25, 2010, 08:55:55 pm
Too Tall,

Interesting charts!

Could you post charts for frequency response and phase for the two coax monitors?

Art Welter
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Guy Johnson on January 26, 2010, 09:39:25 am
Interesting about all these BMS comments — my 12" wedges use OEM BMS concentric drivers, and I love'em to bits. They go from subtle, to very loud and clean. Surprising amount of bottom-end. I know of some that regularly get abused and they're still fine after a couple of years. I'd love to hear some of the new ones!
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Too Tall (Curtis H. List) on January 26, 2010, 03:09:11 pm
Art Welter wrote on Mon, 25 January 2010 20:55

Too Tall,

Interesting charts!

Could you post charts for frequency response and phase for the two coax monitors?

Art Welter



Hi Art,

By rights I should not have posted the 12CN680 coax since it has just started beta. It could change and then I have two versions out there.

The 15C682 is set in stone so I can post some on that.

index.php/fa/27647/0/

The top is a pic of it setting on some milk crates putting the speaker about 4 feet in the air and the mic 1 meter from the baffle.

This shows the true absolute sensitivity. (About 95dB)
The one ground wedge is wrong since the mic was further away. Also no compensation for 1 volt input.

On the ground wedge you can see the cancellation from the floor reflection in the 150Hz to 300hz range. You can plainly see it on the phase response.

NOTE: I have heard some people put some foam or other sound absorption material in front of the box to soak up the floor bounce.
At a wavelength of over 45 inches for 300hz you can forget about it having any useful effect.The most it can do is delay the sound a bit. It won't soak it up enough to make a difference.
Now if some 3kHz finds its way around the side that would make a difference, but the baffle or horn with stop that from happening.
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Too Tall (Curtis H. List) on January 26, 2010, 03:19:55 pm
Art Welter wrote on Mon, 25 January 2010 20:55

Too Tall,

Interesting charts!

Could you post charts for frequency response and phase for the two coax monitors?

Art Welter


Speaking of absorbing reflections here are some pictures of the driver and box for the 15C682 (60-degree conical horn).

Here is the driver by itself, the speaker sitting on its side 48 inches in the air and sitting as a wedge on some milk crates.

index.php/fa/27648/0/

I would have to dig some, but the foam we put behind the horn has a HUGE effect on frequency response and clarity.
Without the foam the best xover design (active DSP or passive) sound mediocre at best. All the digital delay or EQ in the world will not fix it.
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Art Welter on January 26, 2010, 03:56:10 pm
Too Tall,

Yep, that blue foam on the UREI co-ax horn wasn’t there just to make them look good.
That extra reflected/delayed 1K stuff off the back of the HF horn really does not “enhance the presentation”.

Thanks for posting the graphs. Makes me feel better about my 2x8” with tweeter monitors to see some real world tests that have not been massaged flat.

What is the stuff you are using on the back of the 40x80 horn? Kind of looks like a knitting project  Laughing .

Art Welter
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Too Tall (Curtis H. List) on January 26, 2010, 04:39:35 pm
Art Welter wrote on Tue, 26 January 2010 15:56

Too Tall,

Yep, that blue foam on the UREI co-ax horn wasn’t there just to make them look good.
That extra reflected/delayed 1K stuff off the back of the HF horn really does not “enhance the presentation”.

Thanks for posting the graphs. Makes me feel better about my 2x8” with tweeter monitors to see some real world tests that have not been massaged flat.

What is the stuff you are using on the back of the 40x80 horn? Kind of looks like a knitting project  Laughing .

Art Welter



It was.
BMS ships the 12CN680 coax that a knit sausage (No, Really!) to knock down the reflections from the woofer. The trouble was the material is not thick enough to do the entire job.

I tried several different materials, but nothing worked.
The problem is the horn is too short so there is very little space to get a thick piece of foam behind the horn like I did with the BMS 15C682.
In that I used 1" foam.
If I tried 1" foam with the 12" coax it would hit both the horn and the driver cone.

the only real solution is for BMS to make a deeper horn that created more space behind the horn.

So I tried many types of material hoping to get lucky, and I did.
leave the knit material and open it up so you can stuff the inside with the batting they use for the inside of quilts.

So  for every driver that comes in Jack opens up the knit material, stuffs it with batting and closes it back up.
Works like a charm.
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Michael Strickland on February 03, 2010, 08:58:11 pm
I was just going to make a post asking why I don't see these BMS drivers around. Looks like they're finally getting some attention. On paper, these things look like beasts! High power, high efficiency, low weight, complete phase coherency...

What's the pricing on the 15" Triaxial? Do they sound as good and get as loud as they spec out?
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Jack Arnott on February 04, 2010, 05:24:18 pm
Michael Strickland wrote on Wed, 03 February 2010 18:58

I was just going to make a post asking why I don't see these BMS drivers around. Looks like they're finally getting some attention. On paper, these things look like beasts! High power, high efficiency, low weight, complete phase coherency...

What's the pricing on the 15" Triaxial? Do they sound as good and get as loud as they spec out?


Hello Michael

Cost on that is $950.00.

I have not used this unit. I do use the mid high unit extensively, and have just started to use the coaxial 12".
And I sell it too, so my (very high) opinions are open to interpretation/scrutiny.

On to BMS/Attention.

I started a long (not for me) reply to this part, but it seemed pointless. Short answer (for me), they are doing good. Both in the US, and more so abroad. Even last year my BMS sales were up. The one exception is this very (LAB readers/individual providers) market. Which used to be a surprise to me, as I thought this would be my big in when I started in sales. If you want more explanation, ask.

At times I feel that this board can run a bit heavily populated, eastern USA seaboard centric. One of my favorite TV shows a couple of years ago was the ill fated Studio 60. In one episode a cast member is being detained in a rural Nevada jail. The supposed rube sheriff is played by John Goodman. He has a line to the show producer how, "You TV types think that nothing exists between Madison Avenue and Hollywood Blvd." And that rang heavily to me. Both from an entertainment standpoint; the X-Files was the one show where they were constantly going to rural areas, and the residents were always typical TV hicks. And from a business standpoint. It's not that I don't ship to LA and NYC, but from a population density standpoint the numbers are low.

But home hifi, home entertainment, speaker company, paging, movie editing, noise testing, even car and boat systems, etc. markets keep moving forward.

Regards, Jack Arnott
Title: An Ode to Curtis List
Post by: Jack Arnott on February 04, 2010, 05:46:19 pm
While I am proud to represent BMS, and think that they are the best sounding drivers in my small world, in reality I do nothing in this project other than import and sell. So lest this turn into a BMS love fest, I would like to tout the abilities of Curtis.

Who is the best practical use crossover designer in the (my small) world. (With apologies to Tom.)
So when Weogo and I are going to our gigs with no EQ for the monitors, and running from our board to amp to speaker. And not needing to deal with any controllers, or making sure the highs match the lows, only that we have signal; it is not because BMS has the flattest frequency response. It is because of Curtis' crossover designs, and his due diligence. So, more than to just toot his horn on this project, you should know that although he is my crossover guy, he could also be your crossover guy.
Not a very thought of person in the live audio chain, but keep it in your mind for future projects.

Regards, Jack
Title: Re: An Ode to Curtis List
Post by: Al Limberg on February 04, 2010, 06:04:09 pm
+2

?;o)
Al
Title: Re: An Ode to Curtis List
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 04, 2010, 08:30:47 pm
Jack Arnott wrote on Thu, 04 February 2010 16:46

While I am proud to represent BMS, and think that they are the best sounding drivers in my small world, in reality I do nothing in this project other than import and sell. So lest this turn into a BMS love fest, I would like to tout the abilities of Curtis.

Who is the best practical use crossover designer in the (my small) world. (With apologies to Tom.)
So when Weogo and I are going to our gigs with no EQ for the monitors, and running from our board to amp to speaker. And not needing to deal with any controllers, or making sure the highs match the lows, only that we have signal; it is not because BMS has the flattest frequency response. It is because of Curtis' crossover designs, and his due diligence. So, more than to just toot his horn on this project, you should know that although he is my crossover guy, he could also be your crossover guy.
Not a very thought of person in the live audio chain, but keep it in your mind for future projects.

Regards, Jack


I don't want to jinx brother List by calling him an 'audio treasure', so I won't.  Nope, didn't do it. Wink

The gear you demo'd for me sounded very good, very hi-fi in a non-hyped way.  The crossovers were something I didn't think about until you showed me Curtis' work: robust as well as spot on for the drivers.

Your collaboration with Curtis works well.  It will be interesting to hear your next project.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: the little wedge that could
Post by: Weogo Reed on February 05, 2010, 12:58:47 pm
Hi Y'all,

Here are some pics of the BMS 12" coax wedges at a small Contra dance gig:

http://tinypic.com/useralbum.php?ua=mlfN44TZSRpDiTH9Ac33Iw%3 D%3D

Thanks and good health,  Weogo
Title: Re: An Ode to Curtis List
Post by: Weogo Reed on February 05, 2010, 01:02:55 pm
Hi Jack,

With several boxes here with Too Tall's crossovers in them I can very much agree with your asssesment of his crossover design skills!

Additionally, Curtis is a wonderful human being, and willing to share his wealth of knowledge and experience as to what does or does not work and why.

Thanks Curtis!

Good health,  Weogo
Title: Re: An Ode to Curtis List
Post by: Too Tall (Curtis H. List) on February 07, 2010, 11:39:02 am
Weogo Reed wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 13:02

Hi Jack,

With several boxes here with Too Tall's crossovers in them I can very much agree with your asssesment of his crossover design skills!

Additionally, Curtis is a wonderful human being, and willing to share his wealth of knowledge and experience as to what does or does not work and why.

Thanks Curtis!

Good health,  Weogo



Thanks Weogo.

(The check will be in the mail Monday)
Embarassed