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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => DJ Forum => Topic started by: Fernando Lopez on March 05, 2011, 12:49:50 pm

Title: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Fernando Lopez on March 05, 2011, 12:49:50 pm
So I was at a local DJ Store and the guy offered me a new chinese laserthey just got

He shoots some fog in the store and tells me to stand in front of it to see the full effect

I agreed (stupid of me) and as soon as he turned it on got out of the way

Than I asked him to point it at the speker next to the laser:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZlj_j6oZQQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZlj_j6oZQQ)


So be very careful!! only you can know about laser reesponsability not the guy at the DJ Store


Stay Safe!!!
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: David Elsbury on March 05, 2011, 05:10:48 pm
So what's your point? If the laser is half decent, it would have a label stating the minimum distance between the source and the nearest object.
Even if it doesn't, why would anyone in their right mind point it at anything at a range of a metre or less? (what the video looks like at least)

And why, when you see it burning/melting the speaker, why would you leave it running for over 10 seconds? 0.o
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Fernando Lopez on March 05, 2011, 05:32:44 pm
So what's your point? If the laser is half decent, it would have a label stating the minimum distance between the source and the nearest object.
Even if it doesn't, why would anyone in their right mind point it at anything at a range of a metre or less? (what the video looks like at least)

And why, when you see it burning/melting the speaker, why would you leave it running for over 10 seconds? 0.o

my point is that DJs are buying unsafe lasers and pointing them at people's eyes and these things are dangerous
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Ivan Beaver on March 05, 2011, 06:43:15 pm
my point is that DJs are buying unsafe lasers and pointing them at people's eyes and these things are dangerous
As if killing the ears wasn't enough-now they are going for the eyes HA-HA 

Sorry couldn't resist-what's next-smell/taste?
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Randy Pence on March 06, 2011, 03:36:26 pm
my point is that DJs are buying unsafe lasers and pointing them at people's eyes and these things are dangerous

Knives are sharp




shouldnt this be in the lighting forum, anyway?  In 11 years of doing dj systems, I have never had to do anything more than provide power for a laser.
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Tim Talbot on March 08, 2011, 07:45:07 pm
Theres some very strict laser regs coming into the UK very soon.... be a shame as at the moment we get ''away'' with quite alot ...
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Fernando Lopez on March 08, 2011, 07:59:41 pm
Knives are sharp




shouldnt this be in the lighting forum, anyway?  In 11 years of doing dj systems, I have never had to do anything more than provide power for a laser.


Right to my point, people know knives are sharp, but do they know what type of lasers are safe and what type are not?

IIIA
IIB
3R

Which of these are safe?
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Tim Talbot on March 08, 2011, 08:48:59 pm
None of them
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Fernando Lopez on March 08, 2011, 08:58:06 pm
None of them

Are Class IIIa laser pointers dangerous?
Class IIIa or IEC Class 3R lasers can be dangerous. Class IIIa lasers can cause temporary visual effects such as flash blinding, which could distract or startle the person exposed. The risk of injury is very small when Class IIIa pointers are used responsibly because natural body motion of a person holding the pointer or motion of a person who might be exposed makes it difficult to expose the eyes for a long period of time. People also have a natural aversion to bright lights and are likely to close their eyes and turn their heads if exposed.


What are class IIIb lasers and are they dangerous?
Lasers that emit between 5mW and 500mW output power are in Class IIIb or IEC Class 3B. Class IIIb lasers cannot legally be promoted as laser pointers or demonstration laser products. Product labels and user instructions must describe the hazard classification of the product and its output characteristics.
 With any laser product, the potential for injury depends both on the product itself and how the product is used. Higher powered Class IIIb or IEC Class 3B lasers are dangerous and can cause either temporary visual effects or an eye injury.


People who operate Class IIIb portable laser systems should be familiar with the above ANSI standards for safe use of lasers. This ANSI series of standards includes specific information for the safe use of such laser products in their applications of use.

This is from the FDA

My point is IIIB lasers are easily avalaible to DJs and are being pointed at dance crowds

This is the link:
http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-EmittingProducts/RadiationEmittingProductsandProcedures/HomeBusinessandEntertainment/LaserProductsandInstruments/ucm116373.htm (http://www.fda.gov/Radiation-EmittingProducts/RadiationEmittingProductsandProcedures/HomeBusinessandEntertainment/LaserProductsandInstruments/ucm116373.htm)
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Tim Talbot on March 08, 2011, 09:15:38 pm
So i was right then ;)
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Fernando Lopez on March 08, 2011, 09:20:46 pm
So i was right then ;)


Not really, personal opinion, IIIA and 3R you can use to point at people as long as the beams keep moving, what is dangerous is to leave it pointed at someones eye for a period of time

Just read as how they refer to IIIb and above
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Tim Talbot on March 09, 2011, 10:17:51 am
Am i right in thinking your not aloud a crowd scan in the states ?
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Fernando Lopez on March 09, 2011, 10:24:03 am
Am i right in thinking your not allowed a crowd scan in the states ?

I have exchanged emails with the owner of a laser company in the states and I asked him to recommedn me a laser that I can point at my crowds and he suggested a type IIIA laser, with the corresponding small letters regarding that the FDA states that I posted previously

In my personal case I do not work in the States, but I still follow those rules to protect the eyes of the people at my gigs where I rent or where I play.

Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Randy Pence on March 09, 2011, 03:38:14 pm

Right to my point, people know knives are sharp, but do they know what type of lasers are safe and what type are not?

IIIA
IIB
3R

Which of these are safe?

all of them if used correctly and none of them if incorrectly
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Tim Talbot on March 10, 2011, 12:06:14 pm
lol good answer Mr Pence ;)
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Chris Gruber on May 10, 2011, 12:21:53 am
Generally a quality laser will have PPS(points per second) rating of more than 20,000. At that speed the beam doesn't stay in one spot long enough to cause any damage. Combine the fast laser and the human blink response and eye problems won't be an issue.
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Pascal.Pincosy on May 15, 2011, 08:40:13 pm
Generally a quality laser will have PPS(points per second) rating of more than 20,000. At that speed the beam doesn't stay in one spot long enough to cause any damage. Combine the fast laser and the human blink response and eye problems won't be an issue.
This is completely and thoroughly bull-shit! The safety of audience-scanning is ascertained by using a rather complex formula that takes a number of different factors into account. Computing the safety of audience-scanning is not a simple manner and your advise here could lead to someone being permanently injured!!! You might as well be advising that people hang heavy speakers over the audience using bungie cords >:(

And even if you are careful to use a low enough wattage, carefully plot every aspect of your show in a given venue, and follow every guideline regarding audience-scanning, should your scanners (or whatever is creating movement of the laser beam) lock up while the laser is scanning the crowd, then the potential for permanent eye damage is great. Similar to randomly throwing sharp knives into the audience. And should your laser system be unattended or not be equipped with the proper shut-off switches, then it might be throwing those sharp knives into the crowd for a long time.

Those that want to learn more about lasers and laser safety should visit one of the excellent discussion boards. http://www.photonlexicon.com is a good one to start with.
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Chris Gruber on May 22, 2011, 01:46:33 am
This is completely and thoroughly bull-shit! The safety of audience-scanning is ascertained by using a rather complex formula that takes a number of different factors into account. Computing the safety of audience-scanning is not a simple manner and your advise here could lead to someone being permanently injured!!! You might as well be advising that people hang heavy speakers over the audience using bungie cords >:(

And even if you are careful to use a low enough wattage, carefully plot every aspect of your show in a given venue, and follow every guideline regarding audience-scanning, should your scanners (or whatever is creating movement of the laser beam) lock up while the laser is scanning the crowd, then the potential for permanent eye damage is great. Similar to randomly throwing sharp knives into the audience. And should your laser system be unattended or not be equipped with the proper shut-off switches, then it might be throwing those sharp knives into the crowd for a long time.

Those that want to learn more about lasers and laser safety should visit one of the excellent discussion boards. http://www.photonlexicon.com is a good one to start with.

Wow Pascal, way to be nice about it. All you had to say was I disagree. I never said anything about hanging speakers, but maybe you shouldn't either.
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Pascal.Pincosy on May 22, 2011, 02:39:29 pm
Wow Pascal, way to be nice about it. All you had to say was I disagree. I never said anything about hanging speakers, but maybe you shouldn't either.
Hi Chris. You suggested that it's safe to do something that is in fact very dangerous. Sorry I didn't coddle you while making sure that it was well understood by everyone who ever reads this forum that what you suggested was not safe and could cause permanent blindness.

ps thanks for the nice PM. I'll be sure to get right on that.
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Chris Gruber on May 22, 2011, 10:21:19 pm
Hi Chris. You suggested that it's safe to do something that is in fact very dangerous. Sorry I didn't coddle you while making sure that it was well understood by everyone who ever reads this forum that what you suggested was not safe and could cause permanent blindness.

ps thanks for the nice PM. I'll be sure to get right on that.

My info was obviously wrong. I don't need to be coddled but you didn't have to be a jerk about it. Lots of people post info that's not safe on here and nobody else blasts them for it. Your welcome. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Pascal.Pincosy on May 26, 2011, 04:12:55 am
My info was obviously wrong. I don't need to be coddled but you didn't have to be a jerk about it. Lots of people post info that's not safe on here and nobody else blasts them for it. Your welcome. Enjoy!
You obviously have not been around here long have you? Were you posting about rigging or electrical in another section of the forum besides the DJ section, you would have had a ton of people jumping down your throat for posting about something so dangerous. And what you see as "being a jerk" I see as unabashedly and extremely clearly pointing out how wrong and dangerous the advise you gave was.
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 29, 2011, 12:34:06 pm
Wow Pascal, way to be nice about it. All you had to say was I disagree. I never said anything about hanging speakers, but maybe you shouldn't either.

He calls you out for unmitigated bullshit and you have the temerity to respond all fucking offended?

Puhlease.
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: MisrilDean on May 31, 2011, 06:24:13 am
How will I know which laser is harmful??? any suggestions.
Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: Fernando Lopez on May 31, 2011, 06:48:36 am
How will I know which laser is harmful??? any suggestions.

Lasers are rated

The least powerful ones are IIIA and IIIR

Next up is IIIB and beyond. All of these need a license. Any rating that is not IIIA or IIIR will need a variance (license)

If you see a laser that does not have this classification, don't buy it

Chauvet and American DJ make lasers that do not need a license to operate, ergo those are the least harmful

Title: Re: Be wary of lasers
Post by: carlos lopez on May 31, 2011, 09:31:29 pm
Lasers are rated

The least powerful ones are IIIA and IIIR

Next up is IIIB and beyond. All of these need a license. Any rating that is not IIIA or IIIR will need a variance (license)

If yo see a laser that does not have this classification, don't buy it

Chauvet and American DJ make lasers that do not need a license to operate, ergothose are the least harmful


The lasers sold at your local DJ store, are o.k. to point at the dance floor, they are supposed to be 5mW max output, some do have a slightly bit higher power laser inside, but the beam will then be split up via diffraction grating , so that any single beam exiting the aperture, will still be 5mW or below.
It is legal to point those things anywhere, allthough, it may cause some people to panic.
This is the reason you are allowed to purchase it without a variance/ permit.

The lasers you can purchase illegally , through ebay, or out of country, are typicall higher power, and require a variance, those you CANNOT operate unless it is certified by the CDRH, and you better have your variance in order, otherwise, the fine is Up to 300,000 USD, plus your opening yourself up to injury / liabilty !

Lasers are extremely hazardous in the wrong hands PERIOD!