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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => LAB Subwoofer FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: Matt Harris on January 28, 2009, 02:02:24 pm

Title: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Matt Harris on January 28, 2009, 02:02:24 pm
I have a pair of each that i unloaded just to do this test. Since i have received a lot of help with smaart i though i would run this test for you guys. I am not giving my opinions on either sub at the moment, just the facts. I will post my review later.

The setup macbook, 48k pink noise, fasttrack pro, DBX meas mic, miz wiz directly into 1 input of a CrestPro 9200. The measurements were taken outdoors at 10ft. I used the lines in my driveway as reference position because the ground was wet and tape would not stick. Mic was directly on axis for the single cab test and directly in between the cabs for the double cab tests.

As you all know i am new to Smaart so take this FWIW. The Danleys are the 8ohm versions and the Deuces are 4 ohm. I adjusted the Danleys for 3db on the traces.

The first tests i had the gain just over -12db for the single deuce. Of course when i ran two cabs things got a bit hotter. Not wanting to touch anything, I just went through with all of the measurements as is.  I then retested everything starting with the pair of deuces at -12db. I know this probably does not make much of a difference but i didnt want to do this wrong. Also, for each test the Auto LG was used before hand.

Here are the results



EDIT: I should also add that i angled the mic down a little bit more for the 2nd test and for some reason, test 2 phase for the danley was thrown off. Thats why i posted both, so take your pick.

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Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Matt Harris on January 28, 2009, 02:02:46 pm
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Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Matt Harris on January 28, 2009, 02:03:14 pm
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Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Matt Harris on January 28, 2009, 02:03:37 pm
Edit: to insert pics in body, pictures annotated.


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Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Matt Harris on January 28, 2009, 02:13:48 pm
Here is a picture of the test conditions. I realize the ground is wet, the mic ws not in contact with the ground, just close. The Deuce pics were taken after the test, hence the unplugged speaker cable.


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Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 28, 2009, 02:23:49 pm
Matt-

Which traces are for which speakers?

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Matt Harris on January 28, 2009, 02:29:29 pm
it says right there in the screen shots tim, whatever cab is mentioned in the trace notes, the other cab is the other color.

Test 1: Danley = Orange/ Deuce= Blue
Test 2: Danley = Green/ Deuce - Purple/magenta
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 28, 2009, 02:41:11 pm
Matt Harris wrote on Wed, 28 January 2009 14:29

it says right there in the screen shots tim, whatever cab is mentioned in the trace notes, the other cab is the other color.

Test 1: Danley = Orange/ Deuce= Blue
Test 2: Danley = Green/ Deuce - Purple/magenta

The labels on the Smaart screen are not readable though. It would help a lot if you add into each post a description of what we are looking at.

Mac
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Matt Harris on January 28, 2009, 03:28:48 pm
Ok i fixed the pics. Also the delay times were re-adjusted for each measurement but smaart does not store that in the traces. Thats why they all appear t be the same.
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 28, 2009, 03:38:30 pm
Thanks for the notations, but wouldn't have been simpler to just add the notes to the body text of the post?

Mac
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Matt Harris on January 28, 2009, 03:54:22 pm
simpler yes, but not as pretty.  Very Happy
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Art Welter on January 28, 2009, 04:57:11 pm
Matt,

Your test of the TH115 looks far more similar to the published specs than the Bassmaxx Deuce do, at least in test one.

From what I see, doubling the Deuce does not seem to lower the LF corner as they claim, the whole spectrum goes up by 6 dB.

The TH115 does have a very slightly lower LF corner with two, although they don’t claim it in their specs IIRC.

The Deuce has a long horn, but a small mouth. By the looks of the response, it would take a lot more of them to get the LF corner that they claim. Interesting that the spec sheet says +/-3dB 40 to 140 HZ for two Deuce, then the frequency response graph below is for three cabs, and it shows +/-3 DB (6 dB variation) from 40-140.

Perhaps that test was with a wall and a floor...

Looks like the reality for two Deuce is more like +/- 6 dB (12dB range) from 40-140.

Curious as to what SMAART found as the path length difference between the two types of cabinets.
Could you look up the delay times between the two cabinets in the various tests?

Art Welter
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Matt Harris on January 28, 2009, 06:30:11 pm
Actually the spec sheet is for 3 deuces. I own three and things get nicer from there, but i couldn't talk the wife into helping me pick another one up and i dont have a dolly at the house.
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on January 28, 2009, 06:36:07 pm
I haven't been to the Bassmaxx site in a long time, but I do know that 3 Deuces (or 2 Trips) is the minimum number needed for a smooth response. I own both TH-115's and Trips, and I'll usually use my TH-115's for events needing a smaller sub array. The Bassmaxx subs really start to shine when you stack 4 or more cabinets together, just like most other horn-loaded subs.
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Art Welter on January 28, 2009, 07:51:05 pm
Pascal,

I’m sure the Bassmax would shine with 4 units. The same could be said going from one of any sub to four of any sub, horn loaded, tapped horn, ported, sealed.

The point I made is the LF corner on a small mouth long horn sub should change from one to two, if they are acting like one larger mouth horn, or conforming to the published claims Bassmaxx made.

That is not happening with the two Deuce in the test that Matt posted.

Art Welter
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Matt Harris on January 28, 2009, 07:51:28 pm
Yea, when I moved from a pair up to three Deuces there was a pretty big difference felt. In multiples im sure they are great. Im running a 3 man show though so having the TH-115's makes it much easier for a small setup. I can literally move 2 of them at the same time.
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on January 29, 2009, 12:31:24 am
Hey Art,

I hear your point loud and clear. The point that I'm making is that the Deuces were not designed to be used with less than 3 cabinets in an array. With less than 3 cabinets, you are dealing with an insufficiently-sized horn mouth. And I'm sorry, but the same issue does not apply to tapped horns, ported, or sealed subs. Picking away at the response of an undersized array of horn-loaded subs just makes no sense to me.

I don't have the pics to prove it as my laptop recently died, but I have taken measurements of 2, 4 and 8 Trips and I can tell you that with 4 or more Trips the measurements are ruler-flat to below 40Hz with exception of a +3dB hump at 80Hz, and EQ-ing in a flat response from 25Hz up is possible. When I tried to do the same with a block of 12 TH-115's I lost drivers to overexcursion.

All that being said I have no comment on the published specs on the Bassmaxx site except that I hope that any misconceptions or errors are quickly corrected.
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Michael Hedden Jr. on January 29, 2009, 07:43:55 am
Matt Harris wrote on Thu, 29 January 2009 00:51

. Im running a 3 man show though so having the TH-115's makes it much easier for a small setup. I can literally move 2 of them at the same time.


Matt represents the core customer we were thinking of with the TH115.  Big low bass out of a very manageable cabinet. From the ground level I can load and unload 115's by myself into my pickup. Also please notice per Matt's comparative measurements, the TH115 has 6dB more in the actual sub region i.e., below 50Hz.  Try getting that difference with your power amplifiers and see how big the hole in your wallet is!
For the folks wanting even more bass than the TH115 please stand by as there are two new models that will do that with spades, but you'll definitely need a ramp and something bigger than a shortbed pickup! Cool

Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Tom Danley on January 29, 2009, 04:17:04 pm
Hi Art, Pascal Matt,all

“Your test of the TH115 looks far more similar to the published specs /snip-”

Yes exactly the point of doing measurements in a standard way that another person can repeat, makes them useful.
You also asked about extension and horn mouth size.

I guess we should publish a curve for multiple units as the th115 looks nicer with more units too.    I asked Ivan to double check the set up and repeat it when he sent me the first measurements of 4X early  TH-115’s.  
Attached is the measure of one, two and four TH-115’s at 10 meters (-20dB re 1M) and driven at 100W (+20dB re 1W) into the nominal load equaling a conservative 1W1M system sensitivity.  It reaches it’s nominal maximum efficiency of about 50% at 109dB 1w1m.      Adding more units produces a further on axis increase in sensitivity but not from raising efficiency but increasing directivity via the shape of the array.

The lower cutoff one sees with a multiple low frequency horn is due to the path length being increased by having multiple close coupled horns.  While the area of the mouth is obviously increased, how the length is increased in less obvious.  
If one imagines a single large horn and keeps in mind that sound travels as a molecule to molecule change in force which travels at the speed of sound, one finds a curved wave is produced.
At the point the edge of the wave is contained by the final bit of the horn walls, one finds that the center of the wave is out in front of the horn.    The acoustic length is partly related to the size of the mouth and appears to be an added length of about ¾ of the mouth radius more or less.  Some geometry’s are less like a single horn and have less of an effect that the rule of thumb.

One place where the Tapped horn is different than regular horns in that they normally become “flat” when the radiation resistance is satisfied.    Adding more units produces a further on axis increase but not from raising efficiency but increasing forward directivity via the shape of the array.
All the regular bass horns I have made still had a drooped off low end even in large numbers.    The reason is that at the low corner of a bass horn, the length is a quarter wavelength and the horn driver doesn’t become efficient until the horn is a half wavelength or longer, in other words at about 2X the low corner F.



Pascal,

“flat response from 25Hz up is possible. When I tried to do the same with a block of 12 TH-115's I lost drivers to overexcursion.”

If you look at the response curve for say the four TH-115’s, you can see that 25Hz is far below the system’s low corner and below where one could eq  to at least  the power level your running.     Normally for very high power use one would high pass the TH-115 around 30Hz.

If 25-30Hz were needed, then the TH-215 or possibly TH-50 would be a better bet as the raw (un-eq’d) efficiency down there is higher.
For example, at 30Hz, a single TH215 has a sensitivity that is about 10 dB higher than one  TH-115 (while in the midband, is a little less )
I would say try some TH-215’s if you want lower bass, you can compare the measured curves for the TH-115 and TH-215 and get a feel for how they would sound.
They are a little less sensitive than the th-115 but they go lower without eq..
They are nearly the same size as the duce but 20lb lighter and easy to move.
Best,
Tom
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Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on January 29, 2009, 08:08:46 pm
Tom Danley wrote on Thu, 29 January 2009 13:17

Pascal,

“flat response from 25Hz up is possible. When I tried to do the same with a block of 12 TH-115's I lost drivers to overexcursion.”

If you look at the response curve for say the four TH-115’s, you can see that 25Hz is far below the system’s low corner and below where one could eq  to at least  the power level your running.     Normally for very high power use one would high pass the TH-115 around 30Hz.

First, I need to make a correction to my statement: I said "EQ-ing in a flat response from 25Hz up is possible. When I tried to do the same with a block of 12 TH-115's I lost drivers to overexcursion." and that was incorrect. Forgive my memory but this all happened over 2 years ago. In fact I never tried to EQ in more low end on the TH-115's. What I did do was run a 25Hz high pass filter as recommended in the Danley literature and also by Ivan. With 1250 watts of power per cabinet, I lost several drivers to overexcursion in both blocks of 6 and 12 subs. My only point in mentioning this is that the Bassmaxx subs were capable of handling the added low end in sufficiently sized arrays, while with the TH-115's I don't really feel comfortable going much below 40Hz. Granted the drivers that broke were several years old.

There's much frequent comparison between the TH-115's and the Trips/Dueces, mostly because they're the two best-regarded underdog competitors to the mainstream manufacturers. It's kinda too bad that it's always the 2 little guys duking it out while the big guys avoid the fray and laugh all the way to the bank. I've worked with subs from all the big guys outside of D&B (who are certainly breaking the laws of physics if their supporters are to be believed) and none of those companies subs come close to either the TH-115 or the Trips/Deuces in sound quality or output.

For small shows I much prefer the TH-115's due to their small size and excellent response with smaller arrays, though I have used big blocks of them as well and they definitely perform well in those circumstances. The TH-115's have a very clear sound that sounds great with certain styles of music, but seem a little thin with others.

For bigger shows I think the Trips/Deuces are the best-sounding high-output subs on the market today, but you need to have the capabilities to handle the weight and size of them. I'm honestly surprised that there aren't more medium/large providers using them as they're the perfect rock and roll sub, with excellent rear rejection, and despite their weight, they are pretty easy to move around on their dolly plates. I can load and array my 350lb Trips by myself as long as my truck has a lift gate and I'm working on level ground. Plus they stack perfectly in front of a stage, taking up little space and leaving more room for seat or bodies.

I'm definitely looking forward to hearing the new Danley monstrosities that Mike and Ivan keep talking about as I'm still shopping for some subs with raw low end response in the mid-high 20's for the new rig I'm designing. Hopefully they come with plenty of handles and good wheels Cool
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on January 29, 2009, 08:10:28 pm
Michael Hedden Jr. wrote on Thu, 29 January 2009 04:43

From the ground level I can load and unload 115's by myself into my pickup.

Can you explain how you do that? I haven't ever tried doing the same without 2 people, but it might come in handy sometime...
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: John Chiara on January 30, 2009, 01:04:57 am
Pascal Pincosy wrote on Thu, 29 January 2009 20:10

Michael Hedden Jr. wrote on Thu, 29 January 2009 04:43

From the ground level I can load and unload 115's by myself into my pickup.

Can you explain how you do that? I haven't ever tried doing the same without 2 people, but it might come in handy sometime...

I would think just back them up to the tailgate and lift..they should slide right in. The TH 115 is by far the most easily managed sub I have ever used. You can literaly push them around with one hand.
John
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 30, 2009, 07:47:19 am
John Chiara wrote on Fri, 30 January 2009 01:04

Pascal Pincosy wrote on Thu, 29 January 2009 20:10

Michael Hedden Jr. wrote on Thu, 29 January 2009 04:43

From the ground level I can load and unload 115's by myself into my pickup.

Can you explain how you do that? I haven't ever tried doing the same without 2 people, but it might come in handy sometime...

I would think just back them up to the tailgate and lift..they should slide right in. The TH 115 is by far the most easily managed sub I have ever used. You can literaly push them around with one hand.
John

That is how you do it.  Easy-unless you have a monster truck-and then it is a different story Laughing .  But "normal" full sized pickups are no problem.

I can also stack them 3 high by myself.  I don't like doing it-it is safer to have another person help, but it can be done.

2 people can stack them 4 high fairly easily-assuming they are not short people.
Shocked
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Michael Hedden Jr. on January 30, 2009, 02:39:28 pm
What I did do was run a 25Hz high pass filter as recommended in the Danley literature and also by Ivan. With 1250 watts of power per cabinet, I lost several drivers to overexcursion in both blocks of 6 and 12 subs. I don't really feel comfortable going much below 40Hz. Granted the drivers that broke were several years old.
[/quote]

Pascal,
It could have been a driver surround issue.  By way of background, 12 TH115's do all the sub work at Cirque's Love Show in Vegas.  After being in place for over a year we had a driver failure or two.  When I asked where the high pass was set, I was told there wasn't one!  If you've seen the Love Show there is a WWII bombing raid and the subs really get pushed deep and loud.  Anyhow, we examined the drivers that failed and it appeared to be a defective surround which to their credit B&C replaced with new units utilizing a new surround material and we now have several hundred shows behind us with no driver failures. Remember this is a show that runs two or three shows a day,six days a week (I know, it should be eight days a week) Laughing  

Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on January 30, 2009, 02:57:19 pm
Michael Hedden Jr. wrote on Fri, 30 January 2009 11:39

Pascal,
It could have been a driver surround issue.  By way of background, 12 TH115's do all the sub work at Cirque's Love Show in Vegas.  After being in place for over a year we had a driver failure or two.  When I asked where the high pass was set, I was told there wasn't one!  If you've seen the Love Show there is a WWII bombing raid and the subs really get pushed deep and loud.  Anyhow, we examined the drivers that failed and it appeared to be a defective surround which to their credit B&C replaced with new units utilizing a new surround material and we have now have several hundred shows behind us with no driver failures. Remember this is a show that runs two or three shows a day,six days a week (I know, it should be eight days a week) Laughing  

Mike Hedden
Danley Sound Labs, Inc.

I wish I'd known that before I spent all that money on recones  Crying or Very Sad I'll be sure to call you when I blow up some more  Twisted Evil I'm very good at killing sub drivers.
Title: So they started slinging Danley TH-115's off the truck
Post by: Kemper Watson on February 09, 2009, 05:24:56 pm
I had the pleasure of meeting Mat Harris and hearing/teching/harassing/ his band Fly By Radio weekend before last at the club I work at, the now infamous Peachtree Tavern.
 The rig at the club is the SoundPower series by JBL and is a very good sounding rig. So I was kinda surprised when they started bringing in PA, then I saw the Danleys. Now I'd heard the 115's before at the Masquerade gig with Evan but they were being used along with the newer boxes Ivan brought so I didn't hear the 115's by themselves.
 So Matt gets the rig fired up and immediately my plans change. I own JBL SRX 728's and was planning on two more but after hearing and moving the 115's around, well not anymore. The boxes go low, are tight and the low end consumes you without sounding annoying, like double 18's can.
 Later, Mats band goes on and the PA is awesome (Matt, you've done your homework) and his crowd is the largest I've seen so far at the venue.
So when you guys coming back?  
Title: Re: So they started slinging Danley TH-115's off the truck
Post by: Matt Harris on February 09, 2009, 09:12:39 pm
It was kind of a surprise meeting. He recognized the TH-115's and I recognized the name "Kemper". We quickly figured out that we were fellow LABsters. It was great working with Kemper, he has a very good ear. We are going to be back in Atlanta in mid-March.

And yes, I still love the Danley's, even though the "newness" has worn off. We just did an 850+ capacity club in Birmingham, AL where the owner said "You're shaking everything off the walls in my office, thats never happened before!"
Of course right after that he said turn it down Mad


Title: Re: Th115 vs Deuce
Post by: David J Lee on May 26, 2009, 05:28:08 pm
Sorry to revive this after so long but I just got the chance to check out the Deuces that Matt measured.  I am refurbishing them as they transition between Matt and their new owner.  

They are way off spec.  The drivers were loose, bleeding pressure between the rear chamber and the horn throat.  The driver clamps had broken and/or bent and were no longer holding the driver firmly to the baffle. Also the NL4 panels were loose, missing screws and bleeding pressure to the outside air.  There was evidence of moisture inside the cabinet and the gasket tape on the cover panel over the drivers was missing some pieces.  

The inconsistency in their measured performance was most likely due to the broken driver clamps and the absence of a good seal on the exterior of the rear chamber.  

Matt had to replace the drivers more than once and these broken clamps and the resulting air leaks go a long way toward explaining why.  Matt had the earliest boxes and these clamps have long since been eliminated from production.  

Best regards,

David Lee
BASSMAXX