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Title: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Cliff Adams on November 27, 2008, 07:13:43 am
I am assembling a new PA rig: I have 4 EV Sx300s and a Crown Xti 2000 to drive them. Need a pair of subs that are not horrendously heavy! I want to maintain a healthy volume so that people can converse as they enjoy the music, BUT feel motivated to dance. The point is - I care!

Personally, I've always liked the sound of bass guitar speakers on a PA, because you get lots of warm tone. But many consumers/dancefloor pedestrians seem to want piled-up bass frequencies that loosen building mortar and chase older audience members - my beloved Baby Boomers - out of the joint.

Group is bass, drums, guitar, synth, boy singer, girl singer. Volume 110db-ish.

Let's do the physically impossible; have bass that snaps instead of flaps, with a pair of compact subs, with power for my synths and kick to support my vocalists. Suggestions?  Smile
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 27, 2008, 09:49:08 am
Is budget an issue-or what did you have in mind price wise?

How heavy/big is to much?  What are you transporting them in? (car/trailer/box truck etc)

Do you need to be able to stack the rest of your system on top?

Just some basic questions that help give guidance to choices.  Very often one will dictate a proper choice for you, while there may be better cabinets for sonic performance, it may not fit your particular situation
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Cliff Adams on November 27, 2008, 08:56:31 pm
Budget certainly IS a consideration. If I blow the budget on subs then I won't get the new PreSonus Livesound 16.4.2.

As to size - I drive a Pacifica, so cargo space is limited. I am looking into a shelf style trailer that might hold 2 smaller subs.

As to weight - I bought theEV  SX300s because they weigh 32 lbs each. (Great sound is a given). Subs that weigh more than 70 lbs are not welcome! I am 59 years old, for goodness sake! (No, ROADIES are not the answer; I still have to store them at home between gigs).

Array - I was hoping to use EV's array brackets AND have the arrayed pairs up on poles. I asked EV if this was possible, but they just sent me a .pdf of the brackets that did not address using poles as well.

I can deal with these logistics; it's getting adequate bass that I am most concerned about. I mean, when you have a 2-way system crossed over at 200 and you shut off the top end, all you have left is 'bumpy brown noise' on the low side. Just how much of this audio lumpy gravy do we need??

I'm in pursuit of a beautiful musical sound. Say! Now, wouldn't THAT be different?

Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Antone Atmarama Bajor on November 28, 2008, 06:17:38 am

    Uh only few "sub"ish things that have high output quality bass that I know of that weighs bellow 70lbs.

    That would be a Danley sound labs TH-mini or the TH-28.
Those hit the mark and are loud enough for live use.

    If you go up to ~100lbs there is the JTR growler.

    I don't think you should confuse bass guitar speakers with either a sub-woofer, or a PA speaker.

    And extra "warm" tone coloration is not really desirable in a PA speaker.  Added tone tends to clutter the sound.

    I think you maybe a little confused about what a sub-woofer is.  A true sub-woofer will not Snap, or flap.  Sub bass is by nature slow, and long wavelength.  It should be tight and controlled.

    I've never heard of anyone crossing a real sub-woofer over to mains at 200Hz.  Normally 80Hz is the more typical range.

    What sort of venues are you playing?

    The bands play 110dB at what distance?

    If you don't want lumpy response, you are going to need to optimize your system for the environment you are playing in.  If you have amazing ears, knowledge of sound, accoustics, EQ and support gear maybe you could attain magic sound without specialized test equipment.

    But if your playing at little dive bars and old boomy Vets halls.  Sometimes Less PA is more.

Antone-
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on November 28, 2008, 07:30:04 am
Single 18 bass reflex sub will do just fine.
Make it around 150-160 lit and you will be in that weight limit.
Do you already have an amp and crossover?
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 28, 2008, 07:37:42 am
But would it be loud enough for him?  That is where horns really start to shine.
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 28, 2008, 07:48:42 am
Regarding budget-everything else you provided is helpful, a NUMBER or range would be helpful.

When looking at a car (let's say not new)some people think 5K is high, while other think 25K is just fine.

Everybodys budget is different and their conception of an actual number.

Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Jeff Babcock on November 28, 2008, 10:12:08 am
Cliff Adams wrote on Thu, 27 November 2008 20:56



Subs that weigh more than 70 lbs are not welcome!


Well that removes the vast majority of your sub options.  I suggest Danley TH-Mini.

Quote:



I was hoping to use EV's array brackets AND have the arrayed pairs up on poles. I asked EV if this was possible, but they just sent me a .pdf of the brackets that did not address using poles as well.




Pick up a pole mount adapter that converts from 1 to 2.  Several manufacturers make them.

Quote:


.....have a 2-way system crossed over at 200



That seems to be a very strange and much too high crossover point.
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Winston Gamble on November 28, 2008, 01:07:47 pm
Decide what you want this sub to do and then order your priorities. When we were looking to upgrade, small size was my number one need due to trailer space followed by weight and then SPL. Cost didn't really make a difference for us unless it would have been signigicantly higher.

We do small venue live blues rock, so extended low frequency isn't as important for us as it could be for others. If you haven't already, learn how to decypher spec sheets and compare measured response charts when possible as one company's -3dB point or peak SPL will be figured differently than anothers.

Here's the list of options I wound up with for my criteria. Note that I roughly calculated the SPL figures back to a program power level when the spec sheets published peak power level figures. Later we decided to limit our choices to a max weight of 80lbs as I too carry an AARP card and the rest of the crew (the Band) is all female.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/lifeloverwg/Sublist.jpg

We had rented the SRX previously and listened to the MRX in a store setting. The only other model that we demoed was the TH-Mini which was what I wanted as long as we like the sound of it and it lived up to it's specs. We are now very happy with our two TH-Mini's, but they wouldn't be the right subs for others I know.

Good luck choosing, Winston

PS. Does your "baby boomer" crowd really like it at 110dB? Where/how is that measured? Must be the Metal head boomers, Twisted Evil  95-98dBa at FOH in small venues is about our usual.
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Andy Peters on November 28, 2008, 01:28:19 pm
Cliff Adams wrote on Thu, 27 November 2008 05:13

I want to maintain a healthy volume so that people can converse as they enjoy the music

Volume 110db-ish.


I suppose this makes sense, if by "converse" you mean "scream into the ear of the person standing next to you."

Quote:

Let's do the physically impossible; have bass that snaps instead of flaps


Bass doesn't "snap." "Snap" comes from the top boxes.

-a
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Jeff Babcock on November 28, 2008, 02:07:39 pm
Winston Gamble wrote on Fri, 28 November 2008 13:07


http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/lifeloverwg/Sublist.jpg




I call bull on some of those specs.  For instance compare SRX718 to LS608.  Both have an 18" driver.  The LS608 also is partially horn-loaded AND does not go as low, but the JBL is still claiming to have more output.  Sure.... Rolling Eyes  

I happen to trust Danley measurements since they are done by a 3rd party and they actually try to be accurate within the intended usable frequency range.  I'd bet some of the other numbers you see are from a frequency you'd rather not hear a subwoofer produce.
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Cliff Adams on November 28, 2008, 04:57:26 pm
CROSSOVER POINT -- On paper the crossover point IS too high, but try it. In the 60s we had no subwoofers. In the 50s they had no bass! And it did not sound strange! When I got back into playing live I bought the 1990s esentials and began playing with them. My system sounded 'pretty' and got lots of compliments, one of which was, "Hmmm. Hollywood."

INTENSITY -- My db measurement was taken using a meter perched on my keyboard. I got a consistent stage volume of 90 - 108 (that's why I had earplugs made). But please, tell me what the intensity should be at say, 12 feet?

Ok, NOW tell me again why I need subwoofers. ...buncha cramped up waveforms looking for a way out...rumble... rumble...rumble...old people falling over each other trying to get out of the place...

Cliff
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Cliff Adams on November 28, 2008, 05:01:04 pm
Hmm, yes, you have a point there; someone said a person yelling is 108db. So, then, if -3db is half the volume, then members of my assumed huge crowd can be heard above the glorious 105db din if they shout? --Cliff
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Cliff Adams on November 28, 2008, 05:08:58 pm
Andy's right - again - about the 'snap' coming from the top boxes. Guys, I'm just going to have to audition a 410 front-vented box and compare to an 18. I'm thinking that subs are for home theaters and discos. And disco sucks! Or did...

In other words, subwoofer freqs are effects, not music. Did they pass new regs while I was out of circulation? Is it now required that bands all sound like Genesis in Madison Square?
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Winston Gamble on November 28, 2008, 05:12:05 pm
Jeff Babcock wrote on Fri, 28 November 2008 19:07

Winston Gamble wrote on Fri, 28 November 2008 13:07


http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/lifeloverwg/Sublist.jpg




I call bull on some of those specs.  For instance compare SRX718 to LS608.  Both have an 18" driver.  The LS608 also is partially horn-loaded AND does not go as low, but the JBL is still claiming to have more output.  Sure.... Rolling Eyes

I happen to trust Danley measurements since they are done by a 3rd party and they actually try to be accurate within the intended usable frequency range.  I'd bet some of the other numbers you see are from a frequency you'd rather not hear a subwoofer produce.


I think it's pretty healthy habit to question most specs you see.
However, seeing as I enjoy playing the devil's advocate I'll point out that the SRX is rated 800w continuous 1600w program and publishes a measured frequency response that pretty closely backs up its sensitivity rating. While Yorkville tells us that the 608 has a sensitivity of 103dB, they give us zero information as to how or where that rating was attained. As for it's power handling, we get "LF program power 800w". I probably should have noted that for my list in an attempt to have apples to apples comparisons, I normalized the SPL ratings to half space numbers in addition to program power. While I tried to be careful, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn of a mistake I made in collecting/calculating the numbers.
I've never measured what either sub will actually do at program power, but the math basicaly works and it makes sense to me that double the power might just make up for the efficiency gains of semi horn loading.

Having never heard any Yorkville products outside of an ancient pair if Traynor tops that one of the local Coffee House concert series uses, I included them in my consideration mostly based on their favorable reputation here on PSW despite their IMO inadequate spec sheets.

YMMV, Winston.
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Winston Gamble on November 28, 2008, 05:33:13 pm
Cliff Adams wrote on Fri, 28 November 2008 22:08

Andy's right - again - about the 'snap' coming from the top boxes. Guys, I'm just going to have to audition a 410 front-vented box and compare to an 18. I'm thinking that subs are for home theaters and discos. And disco sucks! Or did...

In other words, subwoofer freqs are effects, not music. Did they pass new regs while I was out of circulation? Is it now required that bands all sound like Genesis in Madison Square?


Man, you may be out of touch. Razz
 You need to start with what you are trying to accomplish with adding "subs". The band and I needthe subs we have to reproduce the low frequencies in the PA produced by the Bass guitar and kick drum. If your stage levels are that high, maybe you are already getting all you need out of your backline although I'm pretty sure your kick drum must be damn near inaudible out front without some low frequency reinforcement.

Some people here wouldn't really consider my "subs" to be true subs, but rather bass boxes since they pretty much are done at 45hz but that's all I really need for our application.

Just what are you looking to accomplish?  Winston
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Art Welter on November 28, 2008, 06:18:31 pm
Cliff,

-3 dB is half the power.

-10 dB SPL sounds half as loud.

Direct sound generally drops at 6 dB per doubling of distance, although in a reverberant room the overall sound may hardly drop at all from front to back.

The low E on a bass guitar is around 40 HZ, the low B is around 32 HZ. I don’t know how long you were “out of circulation”, but most folks consider those notes to be musical, not effects. The SX300 makes it down to 60 HZ,(-3dB) so there are still two octaves of music below them.

If your subs are going to be on the floor,(a good place, for them, and with a pole makes a good base for your SX300s) you really don’t want frequencies higher than about 100 HZ coming through them, as those frequencies will be muddied up by the assumed huge crowd dancing in front of them.
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Cliff Adams on November 28, 2008, 08:05:46 pm
Ok. Suppose I put one Radian 18-inch speaker in as small a cabinet as specs will permit.

http://www.usspeaker.com/radian%202218-1.htm

I should hear solid freqs down to 30Hz and have a "sub" that weighs less than 60 lbs. Right? And a pair of them for under $1k.


CRITERIA?
In order of importance:


Hey, I haven't been away THAT long.
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Art Welter on November 28, 2008, 09:36:23 pm
Cliff,

If you use good plywood, like Baltic Birch, a box that size will weigh about 75 pounds with a 26 pound speaker in it. You might save 10 or 15 pounds with a lightweight type of wood, but at a reduction in the “sound fantastic” department.

Notice the frequency response of that Radian speaker in a 5.6 Cubic foot box, it is 10 dB down at 30 HZ from 60 HZ.

It has a small X-Max, which means the cone can’t move very far without the voice coil going out of the gap and the speaker distorting. According to the frequency chart, with 1000 watts input (+30 dB from 1 watt), it could only do 115 DB at 40 HZ. It probably would be exceeding it’s X-max long before 1000 watts, however. It’s a dog.

A speaker that sounds quite good, and costs less, is the Eminence Definimax 15 (4015LF) which has an F3 of 35 HZ in a 6.3 (gross) cubic foot box tuned to 39 HZ. It can do 125 dB with 600 watts. That means it would sound twice as loud at 40 HZ as the Radian using only 60% of the power.

In a 4.4 cubic foot box tuned to 40 HZ, it has an F3 of 40 HZ, and could do about 126 dB with 700 watts.

I have been using one for a drum monitor sub, (3.4 cubic feet tuned to 38 HZ) and it is super clean, detailed and solid to about 35 HZ.

Make sure you high pass any sub just below the F3 to keep frequencies below the box cut off from over excurding the cones. The high pass will also keep your subs sounding cleaner.

Art Welter
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Antone Atmarama Bajor on November 29, 2008, 03:14:35 pm
     It sounds like your accustomed to hearing really distorted subwoofers.

    What DB scale do you use to measure band, what kind of music.

    Thats awfully Quiet for a live band with a drummer unless your playing Jazz Fusion.

    A couple of my bands were pushing 115-120dB on stage (Mostly Drummers pushing the levels).
 
   
Quote:

CRITERIA?
In order of importance:

   * fits in the car
   * can be lifted without injury
   * sound fantastic
   * cost no more than necessary



    Sorry I'm just a Danley Fan since I bought my Bass tech 7s years back (And built my own 22Hz Tapped horn).

    I don't know the cost but, I think the TH-mini or TH-28 from Danley sound labs is the only thing that is going to fit your criteria.  You might be able to get away with just 1 since the ting is so efficient.  You will not be able to make anything comparably small or light that will out perform them.  Not unless you reverse engineer his box and find a source for his drivers.

    There are only a few really great 18's out on the market, I don't think putting them in an undersized box will do you any favors.

    Your drums will benefit, keys will benefit and Bass.

    Instruments that wont benefit are vocals unless your (Bary White, or a beat boxer), acoustic guitar etc. So if have Aux buses available don't send to subs.

    A side note on the topic of bass guitar reproduction.

    Bass guitar does not have massively strong fundamental on its open strings, due to the practical placement of pickups.  The pickup proportionally less fundamental to 2nd harmonic ~10dB.

   So a standard E bass really needs a strong 80Hz to represent its open string, and a 5 string tuned to low B needs 60Hz to represent its 2nd Harmonic.

    Unless you have a bass with a pickup at the 12 Fret, you are going to need a hefty EQ curve to shift the spectral balance toward the fundamental (which sounds cool if you have a sub that will do it).

    I've built a tapped horn so I'm a believer, the concept works incredibly well.

    Good luck whatever you choose.  

Antone-
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Mike Pyle on November 29, 2008, 08:40:31 pm
The TH-Mini would be good. There are also a number of small lightweight powered subs that would work to supplement the bass in your system. These include the EV Sb2a, which has a cabinet similar to the SX300, the FBT Jolly Sub 12a, 10a and Verve 15sa (also available unpowered at 62 lbs), the RCF TTS12A (pricey, as Winston noted), the Yorkville NX720S/LS720P and NX200S/LS200P. I think the heaviest cabinet in this list are ~75 lbs.
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Gene Hardage on November 30, 2008, 02:05:54 pm
Cliff Adams wrote on Thu, 27 November 2008 07:13

I am assembling a new PA rig: I have 4 EV Sx300s and a Crown Xti 2000 to drive them. Need a pair of subs that are not horrendously heavy! I want to maintain a healthy volume so that people can converse as they enjoy the music, BUT feel motivated to dance. The point is - I care!

Personally, I've always liked the sound of bass guitar speakers on a PA, because you get lots of warm tone. But many consumers/dancefloor pedestrians seem to want piled-up bass frequencies that loosen building mortar and chase older audience members - my beloved Baby Boomers - out of the joint.

Group is bass, drums, guitar, synth, boy singer, girl singer. Volume 110db-ish.

Let's do the physically impossible; have bass that snaps instead of flaps, with a pair of compact subs, with power for my synths and kick to support my vocalists. Suggestions?  Smile


It's been a while since I've tossed any ideas at anyone.  This forum tends to have it's favorites so at the risk of being heckled for my opinions - here - look at these...

http://www.ramsdellproaudio.com/products/subs/FL-1-18.html

http://www.ramsdellproaudio.com/images/products/largehiq/subs/FL-1-18-FlylitePortable_lrg.jpg


http://www.ramsdellproaudio.com/products/subs/TL18_2.htm

http://www.ramsdellproaudio.com/images/products/largehiq/subs/TL-18_2_lrg.jpg

Get a Crown XTi4000 and you could configure it to power the subs AND your tops and then use your XTi2000 for monitors.
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Ales Dravinec 'Alex' on November 30, 2008, 04:23:02 pm
Cliff Adams wrote on Sat, 29 November 2008 01:05


... cost no more than necessary ...


Uf, that one is really something. I don't think many products cost more than absolutely necessary.

... or do they ?  Confused
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Cliff Adams on November 30, 2008, 06:11:32 pm
Nooow, you're talkin.
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Cliff Adams on November 30, 2008, 06:13:05 pm
Uf? Uf, indeed. You, sir, have never shopped for a new car with my WIFE!!
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Cliff Adams on November 30, 2008, 06:18:31 pm
Ok, I pulled the old TDM crossover off the shelf and dusted it off. It was crossed over at 90, NOT at 200 Hz. Still sounds good after a 14-year rest.
Cliff
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Cliff Adams on November 30, 2008, 06:44:34 pm
Ramsdells DO look good. I enjoyed the videos on your web site, too!!! Check it out, guys, he can PLAY!
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Jeff Babcock on December 01, 2008, 10:09:03 am
Cliff Adams wrote on Fri, 28 November 2008 17:08

I'm just going to have to audition a 410 front-vented box and compare to an 18. I'm thinking that subs are for home theaters and discos.


...subwoofer freqs are effects, not music.



Cliff, it seems that you have a considerably different idea about what you want your PA to sound like than what might be considered normal these days, or should I say in the last 30 years.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to sound different, but I for one am thoroughly confused as to your intentions.

Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: drewgandy on December 01, 2008, 12:38:06 pm
Jeff Babcock wrote on Mon, 01 December 2008 09:09

Cliff Adams wrote on Fri, 28 November 2008 17:08

I'm just going to have to audition a 410 front-vented box and compare to an 18. I'm thinking that subs are for home theaters and discos.


...subwoofer freqs are effects, not music.



Cliff, it seems that you have a considerably different idea about what you want your PA to sound like than what might be considered normal these days, or should I say in the last 30 years.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to sound different, but I for one am thoroughly confused as to your intentions.




My Dad doesn't appreciate anything more than AM radio bandwidth.  And I can understand where he is coming from.  Extended bass that is done poorly might not be better than well done bass that only extends to 75hz.  Most musical instruments don't need low bass to be appreciated.  As Antone wrote, electric bass guitar (especially the old motown types) is actually pretty deficient in the fundamentals but rich in harmonics.  Fat bass doesn't necessarily have to go low.  And when it comes to extended treble.... if you are an american over 60, can you even hear above 8khz?  

Without hearing what the original poster does musically, I'm not sure what to recommend.  

drew
Title: Re: subs that SNAP instead of FLAP
Post by: Andy Peters on December 01, 2008, 06:49:52 pm
Cliff Adams wrote on Fri, 28 November 2008 15:08

Andy's right - again - about the 'snap' coming from the top boxes. Guys, I'm just going to have to audition a 410 front-vented box and compare to an 18. I'm thinking that subs are for home theaters and discos. And disco sucks! Or did...


A 4x10 box is good if you're playing a bass through an SVT head. The 8x10 box? Doubly so.

But the 18" drivers in a proper enclosure will play much lower.

Quote:

In other words, subwoofer freqs are effects, not music. Did they pass new regs while I was out of circulation? Is it now required that bands all sound like Genesis in Madison Square?


I suppose there's an argument to be made that modern kick drum sounds (bass punching you in the chest) are indeed effects. But sure, a lot of that punch is actually from the lows in the box, and the infamous Metallica CLICK is all 2" compression driver. And some people think that we put subs on an aux send because using subs is an "effect." But really -- if you want that bottom octave that is de rigeuer for what the kids these days call ROCK AND ROLL, you need subs.

Now I have no problem with bands sounding like Genesis, as long as Steve Hackett is playing guitar and Peter Gabriel is singing. That Collins guy's voice and his solo records, I have no use for, though his drumming is solid (though he's no Bruford).

I did a show with (one of) the School Of Rock All-Stars, and this 11-year-old kid sang "The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway" like nobody's business.

-a