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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => LAB Subwoofer FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: lawrencemueller on July 10, 2008, 03:54:18 pm

Title: Finished my LABs
Post by: lawrencemueller on July 10, 2008, 03:54:18 pm
Thanks a TON (actually, about one-half ton of bass) for all the kind, patient advice on the build and the setup. Kevin Pippen, especially. We launched them two days ago and the results were exactly what I was hoping for.

Drum N Bass is awesome with these, but will be better once we get the super mid-bass that we'll get from the X-TROs that I'm about to build. I will need help understanding how they are wired and amped. After seeing the build pics with 4+4 speakon plugs on the back, my head started to spin. (I have just learned how to calculate impedance and wire accordingly for the LABs, this is a bit more complicated and dependant on a few variables.)

We're powering them with one QSC PL380, but I realized that I can run each pair of off one of these, so we're planning to buy one more to get the full effect.

I think if I had it to do again, I would use a black veneer instead of liquid finishes, at least for the inside of the mouth, where it's likely to gather dust and start looking rough. I used Duratex speaker coating on the outside, and it is really nice. I was able to extend it by first priming with flat black latex and letting it dry for 12 hours. On a test sample, dry-to-touch (1 hour) latex caused crackling and lift-away when coated with duratex, but fully cured latex (12 hours) worked as a primer and extender without reducing adhesion of the duratex. (Duratex isn't cheap.)

Heavy duty handles, two on the top and two on the bottom, along with four heavy-duty casters on the back is a GREAT combination. You can pull on the handle with your foot at the fulcrum point and all 250 lbs goes right onto two of the wheels. (This can be made easier with 3/4" rubber feet on the bottom, which I thought of beforehand.) It's easy to maneuver without any help at all. You can lower it onto all four caster to move it longer distances. Tha handles help for loading or stacking them on their sides.

Notes on mounting the wheels:
1. Inset them enough so that the wheels will never pass the edge of the box at any position. I made a template for consistency.

2. I used 4" caster (swivel and/or fixed) with 1/4-20 deluxe T-nuts from parts express.

3. Before you assemble the outer box, (but you've got the pieces routed and ready to go) mount the T-nuts on the back panel with some epoxy where the teeth go in. Then bolt the wheels on and torque them down. You can avoid a few problems this way, and it's nice to have the wheels so early on.

Thanks again!


index.php/fa/16748/0/
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: lawrencemueller on July 10, 2008, 03:54:57 pm
more pics:
index.php/fa/16749/0/
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: lawrencemueller on July 10, 2008, 03:56:00 pm
more pics:
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Rain Jaudon on July 11, 2008, 12:24:16 am
They look GREAT but I think you need more tie downs before you can fit them in that car. HAHA!
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Josh Billings on July 11, 2008, 05:57:00 am
They look awesome man

a few suggestions

lose the corner pieces and get them sprayed with bed liner. May seem expensive now, but worth every dime in 2-5 years. SPRAYED with bed liner though, not roll on (not nearly as good).

I like the handles for sure, but think about cutting out the bottom corner. Makes it really easy for one person to set up. Just tilt back on corner and then put back on wheels and roll.

The way your brace is cut really looks good though, probably my favorite touch.

-Josh Billings
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: lawrencemueller on July 11, 2008, 09:36:20 am
Thanks! The braces took some work - filler and sand, repeat - ad nauseum.

I wanted to get spray on bedliner, but this set didn't have the budget for it. I did settle for Duratex, which got some high reviews on this forum. Definitely the next best thing, but not even close to the durability and overall awesomeness of spray-on bedliner, for sure. BTW, those corners don't crack (as many people complain) if you seat them properly by routing out the edges of the box where they mount.

I explored cutting the lower back cavity to put wheels there, but decided to keep it.

Besides, with rubber feet on the bottom and casters on the back, mine have the same functionality you're talking about - pull it back onto two of the wheels and roll it around. I moved these things between the shop and the carport probably 7 times while building them, and I didn't need assistance a single time, even though the entrance to the shop is elevated by a foot or more, followed by a tight 90 degree turn.

(Thick rubber feet provide traction so that it's not sliding around on the corner of the box as you're getting it up to the equilibrium point.)

Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Josh Billings on July 12, 2008, 10:51:52 pm
No i mean cut out the corner and put 4 wheels on the back.

I originally did it like that (cerwin vega style wheelbarrow design) but i hated having to keep it balanced the whole time and it was a bit of a pain. I stumbled across the awesomeness of having that back corner cut out though

It makes it AMAZINGLY easy to tilt them back and move them by yourself. Seriously so glad i did it with mine and will definitely do it in the future.

Well if you're sticking with paint, do as many coats as you can afford / have time for. It's just one of those things you wish you would have done a year or two down the line

They look super good man, you should be proud. I could see them selling for $2,500-3,000 or so. Just loving that cross brace Smile

-Josh Billings
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: lawrencemueller on July 13, 2008, 12:42:08 pm
You're right, cutting out the corner AND putting four wheels on the back is probably the best way possible for maneuverability.

In hindsight, I really do wish I had some truck bed liner sprayed on 'em. They would definitely look perfect, then...

I'm going to consider getting some sprayed on over the current finish later on, if they think it's compatible. Hopefully so!

I bet truck bed liner completely covers the grain of b-grade plywood - you know, where the density of the wood fibers varies, so the texture of the paint on top of it varies in sheen level as a result... probably doesn't happen at all with truck bed liner

I'm thinking a truly professional look could be achieved by using black veneer on the inside of the visible parts of mouth and truck bed liner on the outside of the entire box, along with black anodized access panels. Of course, I'd have to have the cross brace and the motor panels CNC'd in order to achieve the necessary precision for a surface treatment like that.

Man, this makes me want to build some more!

Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney) on July 13, 2008, 05:22:49 pm
Nice... Have you ever heard 6 of them?? That is truley the magic number for your type of music.

get back in the shop!
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: lawrencemueller on July 13, 2008, 05:50:32 pm
Yessir, I will! and I'll run one PL380 per pair.

If you're into bass, Klute sounds amazing on these. There's lots of really low stuff, and it's got all kinds of interesting variations in the way the bass resonates. It's some of the cleanest, clearest bass around...
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Brian Alleyne on July 13, 2008, 07:59:53 pm
Very happy to see them,try some dancehall reggae and soca on them.Would like to find out your impression on those two musical genres.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on July 13, 2008, 08:58:15 pm
jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney) wrote on Sun, 13 July 2008 17:22

Nice... Have you ever heard 6 of them?? That is truley the magic number for your type of music.

get back in the shop!




Have you ever heard 8 or 12 of them. Now thats when things start getting interesting. Smile




Evan
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: lawrencemueller on July 14, 2008, 10:28:38 am
Actually, being an American, MORE is the magic number for me.   Twisted Evil
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on July 14, 2008, 12:15:01 pm
Yes 12 will be the magic number  Twisted Evil
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Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: lawrencemueller on July 14, 2008, 12:31:16 pm
Yeah, I've seen that pic. I forwarded it to the guy that funded this project. He loved it so much that he made it his desktop image.

Speaking of 'American' isn't this setup in the UK? Or am I thinking of a different huge stack of 12 labhorns that are painted blue?

Makes me think of that song that Trent Reznor did with David Bowie. I think it's weird that you don't hear at least a sample of it anywhere these days.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: leon douven on July 14, 2008, 04:20:41 pm
does anybody know what midbass and highend cabs are on the picture. would love to hear this stack... who's is it??
regards
Leon
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Josh Billings on July 14, 2008, 06:32:42 pm
I just think these get better the more you add, however in stacks of LESS than 4 you won't understand what the big deal is.

-Josh Billings
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: jeffhtg (Jeff Kenney) on July 14, 2008, 06:41:12 pm
I  have 8 at my baby project club.. For about 2 months we ran on 4 while the other 4 were being funded. There was a HUUUGE difference between 4 and 8 in low end extension Smile   that is why I say 6 is the magic number Smile
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on July 14, 2008, 07:11:53 pm
Midbas are Martin 215 (or was it ASS 215). I will check and the tops are Turbosound Floodlights.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: lawrencemueller on July 14, 2008, 07:16:13 pm
Josh Billings wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 17:32

I just think these get better the more you add, however in stacks of LESS than 4 you won't understand what the big deal is.

-Josh Billings



Yeah, I don't know how many times I've had to explain why they won't get split into two sets. It's one of the first things my friends start talking about when they see 'em.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: lawrencemueller on July 14, 2008, 07:21:39 pm
Anybody hear labs with xtros before?

What ratio of xtros to labhorns do I need? 2:4, 4:6 and 4:8 is how I was thinking of scaling as we go...


Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Mike Maki on July 14, 2008, 07:26:59 pm
Marjan Milosevic(MarjanM) wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 00:11

Midbas are Martin 215 (or was it ASS 215). I will check and the tops are Turbosound Floodlights.


Actually the tops look like Flashlights.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on July 15, 2008, 05:53:08 am
Yeah, my mistake.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: peter.golde on July 15, 2008, 10:05:03 am
I think only a small handfull of people have actually built and use the xtro, most not in the US. To me the box has yet to be proven or used by any substantial number of people, but it still gets recommended highly by some. It is a heavy, non arrayable box, very complicated and expensive to build from where I sit. If your going the DIY route, try checking out some top offerings from Bill Fitzmaurice, as good as anything out there for your uses. I would recommend DR280's over Labs, awesome true horn loaded bass to 80hz, clean, clear and LOUD.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on July 15, 2008, 11:54:11 am
Unlike the DR290, X-tro uses top of the line drivers and hardly needs any EQ to sound good.
You will have to play a lot with the EQ settings in order to get DR290 sound good.
And if you say X-tro is a complicated build, than you didn't actually see the inside of the DR290.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: peter.golde on July 15, 2008, 08:45:26 pm
Marjan Milosevic(MarjanM) wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 11:54

Unlike the DR290, X-tro uses top of the line drivers and hardly needs any EQ to sound good.
You will have to play a lot with the EQ settings in order to get DR290 sound good.
And if you say X-tro is a complicated build, than you didn't actually see the inside of the DR290.


Yes I agree the DR290 is complicated, I built some, but the efforts are not wasted, you can load premium drivers in it as well. The results are an efficient, lightweight, arrayable box,  and with some eq, (the hard work done and results posted) sound damn good. I have heard these side by side against JBL SRX dual 15 tops playing EDM and the DR's shined, to where the owners of the JBL's came over to take measurements and scratch their heads, and ultimately compliment the system.
I built on faith, because I enjoy the process, but I would expect any end user to demo the boxes first before deciding.
Peace



Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Chris Gruber on July 17, 2008, 02:37:57 am
I agree on the brace cut. It has this stealth look and imho makes it look like a totally different sub. Sweet!
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Jeff Woodford on July 22, 2008, 11:20:19 am
lawrencemueller wrote on Mon, 14 July 2008 17:31

Yeah, I've seen that pic. I forwarded it to the guy that funded this project. He loved it so much that he made it his desktop image.

Speaking of 'American' isn't this setup in the UK? Or am I thinking of a different huge stack of 12 labhorns that are painted blue?

Makes me think of that song that Trent Reznor did with David Bowie. I think it's weird that you don't hear at least a sample of it anywhere these days.


Hello there, that big pile of blue lab's is mine. Great to hear that someone has that picture as their desktop image. It's been mine for a while too!!

That pic was taken at the Notting hill Carnival last year, we will be doing the same pitch this year with 12 labs again but with our new Turbosound Aspect 880s for mid tops..

pictures to follow in a month or so...
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Jeff Babcock on July 22, 2008, 03:24:06 pm
peter.golde wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 20:45

Marjan Milosevic(MarjanM) wrote on Tue, 15 July 2008 11:54

Unlike the DR290, X-tro uses top of the line drivers and hardly needs any EQ to sound good.
You will have to play a lot with the EQ settings in order to get DR290 sound good.
And if you say X-tro is a complicated build, than you didn't actually see the inside of the DR290.


Yes I agree the DR290 is complicated, I built some, but the efforts are not wasted, you can load premium drivers in it as well. The results are an efficient, lightweight, arrayable box,  and with some eq, (the hard work done and results posted) sound damn good. I have heard these side by side against JBL SRX dual 15 tops playing EDM and the DR's shined, to where the owners of the JBL's came over to take measurements and scratch their heads, and ultimately compliment the system.
I built on faith, because I enjoy the process, but I would expect any end user to demo the boxes first before deciding.
Peace





The X-tro is a nice looking design, and I have spoken with one person who is extremely happy and whose opinion I trust.  However, it is heavy, not cheap to build, not arrayable, and tri-amp.  Not exactly simple or cheap once you take amps, cabling, and processing into consideration.  NL8 cables ain't cheap these days.

The fitz DR's are not easy to build, although Lab subs are not that simple either, so if you built labs you will probably be OK.  They are very cheap in terms of material costs, but if building 290's I would never consider the recommended Eminence HF.  Loaded with something like a pair of BMS 4552 drivers (which are a great driver for the price) crossed at about 1K they would be more serious boxes IMHO.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Jeff Babcock on July 22, 2008, 03:25:52 pm
One other thing... keep in mind that homebrew cabs like Xtros and DR's and even Lab Subs have much poorer resale value than a commercial box.  This may or may not matter to you.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Brian Alleyne on July 22, 2008, 09:47:19 pm
Put your company logo on the cabinets and say they are proprietary cabs that should help the resale value.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on July 23, 2008, 05:35:09 am
Jeff Babcock wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 21:24




The X-tro is a nice looking design, and I have spoken with one person who is extremely happy and whose opinion I trust.  However, it is heavy, not cheap to build, not arrayable, and tri-amp.  Not exactly simple or cheap once you take amps, cabling, and processing into consideration.  NL8 cables ain't cheap these days.

The fitz DR's are not easy to build, although Lab subs are not that simple either, so if you built labs you will probably be OK.  They are very cheap in terms of material costs, but if building 290's I would never consider the recommended Eminence HF.  Loaded with something like a pair of BMS 4552 drivers (which are a great driver for the price) crossed at about 1K they would be more serious boxes IMHO.


What do you mean they are not arrayable?
Just because they are not trapezoidal does not means you cant use more than one per side. They are 60 degree horizontal dispersion.
Just you cant tight pack them and should splay them a bit. Just like any Turbosound Floodlight or Flashlite.

Also they can be biamp if you put passive crossover between the 8" and 1".

In terms of shire output you can not compare DR290 and Xtro.
It is like comparing Volvo and Porsche. Much more HP in the Xtro.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Sean Perryman on July 24, 2008, 03:44:32 am
Anyone have a link to plans for the X-Tro? Have seen it talked about alot, but haven't found plans yet. What is everyone's opinion of BF's DR300? When he says on there "Vertically Arrayable" does he mean in a hanging fashion, or in ground stack form?
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on July 24, 2008, 08:03:33 am
You can find everything here

http://speakerstore.nl/index.php?pg=11&c=23

And you have a forum section dedicated to the Xtro and Punisher on the speakerplans.com

http://www.speakerplans.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=19

Have a nice reading

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Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Josh Billings on July 24, 2008, 09:06:53 am
I've heard all the DR Tops suffer from a muffled midrange / midbass area because of the bent horn. I can't see how he can overcome trying to fold frequencies like 900 hz

-Josh Billings
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: peter.golde on July 24, 2008, 10:05:14 am
Josh Billings wrote on Thu, 24 July 2008 09:06

I've heard all the DR Tops suffer from a muffled midrange / midbass area because of the bent horn. I can't see how he can overcome trying to fold frequencies like 900 hz

-Josh Billings


Frequencies much higher than 900 are "folded" and mutilated in different phase plug designs. The way it is done in the DR's is the driver fires into a short vertical diffraction horn, then split horizontally very close with a rounded hard smooth, small radius bend, which has a built in expansion to match the correct horn expansion for lower frequencies. Sort of like a modified w bin.
There are tradeoffs in all designs, these boxes are lightweight and super efficient and the high quality true horn loaded bass and mid bass that they produce is quite impressive at any size or weight.
The short bandpass horn of the xtro must be pretty impressive with the dual 15's as well, should be louder closer in, more like direct radiators. You would have to demo the boxes for yourself to figure whats best for your application.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Nimrod Webber on July 24, 2008, 10:51:50 am
Josh Billings wrote on Thu, 24 July 2008 16:06

I've heard all the DR Tops suffer ...


Josh,

Don't listen to people,
Have a listen to some DRs first hand...  Surprised  

Razz
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Jeff Babcock on July 24, 2008, 04:45:16 pm
Marjan Milosevic(MarjanM) wrote on Wed, 23 July 2008 05:35

Jeff Babcock wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 21:24




The X-tro is a nice looking design, and I have spoken with one person who is extremely happy and whose opinion I trust.  However, it is heavy, not cheap to build, not arrayable, and tri-amp.  Not exactly simple or cheap once you take amps, cabling, and processing into consideration.  NL8 cables ain't cheap these days.

The fitz DR's are not easy to build, although Lab subs are not that simple either, so if you built labs you will probably be OK.  They are very cheap in terms of material costs, but if building 290's I would never consider the recommended Eminence HF.  Loaded with something like a pair of BMS 4552 drivers (which are a great driver for the price) crossed at about 1K they would be more serious boxes IMHO.


What do you mean they are not arrayable?
Just because they are not trapezoidal does not means you cant use more than one per side. They are 60 degree horizontal dispersion.
Just you cant tight pack them and should splay them a bit. Just like any Turbosound Floodlight or Flashlite.

Also they can be biamp if you put passive crossover between the 8" and 1".

In terms of shire output you can not compare DR290 and Xtro.
It is like comparing Volvo and Porsche. Much more HP in the Xtro.



Marjan,
I never said the Xtro was not a higher-end design.  It would certainly have more output than DR's.  Re the arrayability, if I recall correctly, it was Walt or somebody similar in the forums saying while you could splay them, they weren't really designed with arraying in mind.  I suppose in the real world they would array about as well as a lot of other 60deg boxes.

Back to the OP's original post.... be VERY careful running a PL380 into only 2 Labs.  You could very easily see the magic smoke if you are not taking proper precautions.
Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: lawrencemueller on July 24, 2008, 04:57:30 pm
[quote title=Jeff Babcock wrote on Thu, 24 July 2008 15:45][quote title=Marjan Milosevic(MarjanM) wrote on Wed, 23 July 2008 05:35]
Jeff Babcock wrote on Tue, 22 July 2008 21:24



Back to the OP's original post.... be VERY careful running a PL380 into only 2 Labs.  You could very easily see the magic smoke if you are not taking proper precautions.



Thanks for the caution. I really want to run it with as much as some of the folks on this forum have mentioned - 2000 watts per box. I'll have my own version of heatsinks in place, and we won't be running them with everything turned up, I just want to have lots of headroom and good reproduction of sound.

Title: Re: Finished my LABs
Post by: Josh Billings on July 24, 2008, 06:50:10 pm
Yeah with an 800 watts RMS box i'd get nowhere near the clip light at 2500 watts. You CAN do peaks at 2500 watts, but it's a fine line and you better have those cabinets AIR TIGHT! The suspension will shred with an air leak.

-Josh Billings