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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => Archived Threads => Topic started by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on March 11, 2008, 01:33:26 pm

Title: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on March 11, 2008, 01:33:26 pm
I've noticed that there isn't very much information "out there" about the people whose contribution to our business has been foundational. I have been editing Wikipedia as a means to counteract the shortfall but the effort needs a lot more than I have to offer. It would be great if LABsters could kick down some photos and facts to help flesh out the articles about audio industry pioneers. Especially photos!

Articles that need your help:
Acoustical engineers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Ballantine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Bozak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_D%27Appolito
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vance_Dickason
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Dudleston
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Fanger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kenneth_Hilliard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomlinson_Holman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_W._Kellogg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Wilbur_Klipsch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Kloss
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vern_Oliver_Knudsen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bullough_Lansing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siegfried_Linkwitz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Joseph_Lodge
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Marshall_%28New_Zealand_ acoustician%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_F._Olson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Bozak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Raphael
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_W._Rice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Shearer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Sibul

Electronic engineers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_E._Blackmer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Blumlein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Dolby
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hafler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Massenburg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_M._Poniatoff
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Putnam, Sr.

Live sound guys:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Healy_%28Soundman%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mick Hughes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutch_%28sound_engineer%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Rat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owsley_Stanley

Important engineers that don't yet have Wikipedia articles about them:
John F. Blackburn (Altec)
Herbert Keroes
Ed Laurent
Saul Marantz
Frank McIntosh
Roger Russell
Dan Dugan (once had an article but he deleted it)
Al Kahn (cofounder of EV)
Lou Burroughs (cofounder of EV)
Don Davis
Carolyn Davis
Edgar Villchur (cofounder of Acoustic Research Corp.)
Fritz Sennheiser
Georg Neumann
Carl Countryman
Dr. Don Pearson

And many more...

-Bink
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Lee Brenkman on March 11, 2008, 02:40:09 pm
A worthy endeavor Binkster

One more that you left out - after all he did record AND do live sound for "The King"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Porter_(audio)

And Fred Catero and Abe Jacobs need to be added to the list as well

Fred, not only because he did great work, but because he was one of the first engineers at Columbia to insist that engineers get credits on liner notes.

Abe because he revolutionized theater sound and pretty much INVENTED the job description "sound designer.

And maybe Bob Cohen and Charlie Butten, if for no other reason that they made it easier for tech crews to actually TALK to each other at loud live shows.  Can you imagine a world WITHOUT ClearCom or the equivalent?

Cheers,
Lee
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on March 11, 2008, 03:41:23 pm
Lee Brenkman wrote on Tue, 11 March 2008 11:40

A worthy endeavor Binkster

One more that you left out - after all he did record AND do live sound for "The King"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Porter_(audio)

And Fred Catero and Abe Jacobs need to be added to the list as well

Fred, not only because he did great work, but because he was one of the first engineers at Columbia to insist that engineers get credits on liner notes.

Abe because he revolutionized theater sound and pretty much INVENTED the job description "sound designer.

And maybe Bob Cohen and Charlie Butten, if for no other reason that they made it easier for tech crews to actually TALK to each other at loud live shows.  Can you imagine a world WITHOUT ClearCom or the equivalent?

Cheers,
Lee



Good ones, Lee. I've always like Fred Catero's blustery personality aside from his excellent work. And yeah, ClearCom can't be overlooked.

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Carver
Gordon Gow (McIntosh)
Ron Wickersham (Alembic)
Susan Wickersham (n
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on March 11, 2008, 04:22:09 pm
Quote:

There's still many more...

-Bink
Tru dat, Binkster.

Where's Greg Mackie? (I know, I know, but he put a bunch of us ankle biters in the game).
And Tony Hoffman, the "H" in KLH, and author of the eponymous "Iron Law."

Perhaps Uli gets "honorable" mention for reverse engineering.  Laughing
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Brad Nelson on March 11, 2008, 05:33:02 pm
I would also include Stan Miller on that list. I think he was among the first if not the first to safely "fly" speaker cabinets, among many other accomplishments.
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Michael Prasuhn on March 11, 2008, 11:00:13 pm
Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Tue, 11 March 2008 13:41

[snip]
Bob Cavin (McCune, Apogee, Furman; console designer, digital amplifier control; first "blackbox" amp/crossover/limiter; first monitor mixer; first multi-angle stage wedge)



So is he the one responsible for that pair of prototype SM6s that everyone tried to hoard all the time?

They had a vertical orientation with the horn appearing above the woofer, instead of beside it. I don't believe they could pole mount. Probably number ASM6001 and ASM6002. Supposedly they sounded way way better than the standard SM6s.


Last time I was in the Anaheim they were trying to figure out how to keep 'em around and not ship them back to the main office.

-Mikey P
Title: Bob Cavin and stage wedges
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on March 12, 2008, 12:01:35 am
Michael Prasuhn wrote on Tue, 11 March 2008 20:00

So is he the one responsible for that pair of prototype SM6s that everyone tried to hoard all the time?

They had a vertical orientation with the horn appearing above the woofer, instead of beside it. I don't believe they could pole mount. Probably number ASM6001 and ASM6002. Supposedly they sounded way way better than the standard SM6s.


Last time I was in the Anaheim they were trying to figure out how to keep 'em around and not ship them back to the main office.

-Mikey P



Cool

Yeah, those ones rocked. I don't know if Bob designed them. I, too, think the wooden cabinet on that revision sounded better. In my memory, they were modified McCune SM5s, not SM6es. Last time I used those was on a Black and White Ball gig back in the early '90s. Jeez, that was a long time ago.  Rolling Eyes

Before the SM6 was the SM4... a multi-angle bi-amped monitor that used an Altec 604B co-axial. It sounded great at medium volume but it was big, its center of gravity was lopsided, it was awkward for one guy to lift, its seams tended to crack and leak air and it was not at all suited to the louder customers. Ernie Heckscher loved 'em.  Confused

The SM3 was a boxy lightweight mid-high bi-amped pup and the SM2 was a very compact passive design with a 10" and a piezo horn. Neither of them had monitor wedge pretensions apparent in their construction, though someone had fabbed a few collapsible wooden cradles that tilted them up for stage usage. I don't know what the SM1 was; I never saw one. Or if I did, I didn't know what I was seeing. There was a lot of dusty stuff in the way back.  Very Happy

You might want to write Bob Cavin and ask him if there was some multi-angle monitor speaker predating the SM4. Maybe the first multi-angle stage wedge was a single prototype. I sure don't know! Bob's website: http://bobcavin.com/

-Bink
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Chad Johnson on March 12, 2008, 12:22:29 am
Back when I got into live sound I used a lot of Apogee, so Ken DeLoria would be worthy of a designer entry. The early Apogee stuff was cutting edge. Maybe Jeff Berryman for application? I'm sure there are lots of Japanese engineers that I've never heard of. The SPX crew? It would be an interesting thread to know the pedigree of specific designers, ie as they've changed companies over their careers what products are they reponsible for.
--Chad
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on March 12, 2008, 10:46:32 am
I applaud this effort.

I don't think a few hour session at an AES show could do justice to even a small fraction of this list.

This strikes me as perhaps a good longer term project for local AES chapters. First to identify important contributions made by people in their region and then to document that. These local efforts could be consolidated into a larger whole. Certainly AES efforts could be cross linked to WIKI, etc.

I regret that some of these individuals are already gone so they can't be interviewed but associates and subordinates may still be findable. This should be an ongoing project, not just a one time deal. The IEEE from time to time published a historical overview along similar lines across the broader category of electronics.

There was (is?) an Audio Museum that IIRC was associated with the AES, but this was more old hardware than "engineer" organized. Perhaps a more logical organization of this is by tracing the progress of technology and people associated with those technology milestones can be cross linked. Many companies also have corporate museums either formal or informally, that could be documented by willing employees.

This is a potentially massive project and you will get different short lists from different people, but that's fine. It's better to have too many entries than not enough.

In many cases the historical individual will be associated with one major series of products or technology, like Dan Dugan with his automatic mixing invention, so this alternate organization may be academic, the people and what they do/did is inextricably linked together.

JR
Title: AES Historical Committee
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on March 12, 2008, 01:11:19 pm
John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Wed, 12 March 2008 07:46

I applaud this effort.

I don't think a few hour session at an AES show could do justice to even a small fraction of this list.

This strikes me as perhaps a good longer term project for local AES chapters. First to identify important contributions made by people in their region and then to document that. These local efforts could be consolidated into a larger whole. Certainly AES efforts could be cross linked to WIKI, etc.

I regret that some of these individuals are already gone so they can't be interviewed but associates and subordinates may still be findable. This should be an ongoing project, not just a one time deal. The IEEE from time to time published a historical overview along similar lines across the broader category of electronics.

There was (is?) an Audio Museum that IIRC was associated with the AES, but this was more old hardware than "engineer" organized. Perhaps a more logical organization of this is by tracing the progress of technology and people associated with those technology milestones can be cross linked. Many companies also have corporate museums either formal or informally, that could be documented by willing employees.

This is a potentially massive project and you will get different short lists from different people, but that's fine. It's better to have too many entries than not enough.

In many cases the historical individual will be associated with one major series of products or technology, like Dan Dugan with his automatic mixing invention, so this alternate organization may be academic, the people and what they do/did is inextricably linked together.

JR



AES has its Historical Committee; they do some mighty fine activities such as assembling vintage gear for demos.  In 2000, they hosted "When Vinyl Ruled" with a rotary-knob Putnam remote recording mixer, a pair of Ampex 300 tape recorders and three Altec 604s for playback. There was a vintage microphone demo in 2001. Before that, Jack Mullin would bring all the oldest gear he could find and demonstrate each one by itself.

AESHC also invests effort in organizing scraps of the past; they're improving digital online access to historic patents, for instance. They have a lot on their plate.  Smile

Bill Wray and Gene Radzik co-chair the AES Historical Committee and John G. "Jay" McKnight (Magnetic Reference Laboratory) is Chair Emeritus. Check it out here:
AES Historical Committee (AESHC) website. Volunteers don't have to be members!

I agree that this should be a long-term project. Our most important pioneer engineers are sometimes lauded in popular media but more frequently given only a few paragraphs of PR copy or a final "In Memoriam" in an industry publication. I would like to see more of a public face put to what we do and who we are.

JR, you mention people linked to their hardware inventions: in many cases, important new hardware developments were put forward by a team of clever cats who remained relatively nameless following the effort. My organization of this list by individuals will miss these stories but that doesn't mean the stories shouldn't be told. It would be great to read about the various team development efforts at Bell Labs, for instance.

Non-hardware conceptual and methodological developments are important, too. There's software pioneers, too. It's not just voicecoils and formers.  Very Happy

A big challenge moving forward will be to sort the classic EE engineers from the much larger list of recording and mixing engineers. At this point on Wikipedia they're all jumbled together.  Mad

I'm going to ping the AESHC guys and let them know we're mounting this effort. Perhaps they'll be interested in putting a generous helping of AES information out on Wikipedia; perhaps they'll opt to play it closer to the chest.

-Bink

P.S. More engineers worthy of an article or expansion:

William J Halligan (Hallicrafters)
Lincoln Walsh (Bozak) transmission-line loudspeaker
Harold Rhodes (electric piano)
James Edward Maceo West (electret mic)
Gerhard M. Sessler (electret mic)
Wally Heider (concert remote recording)
John M. Eargle (JBL)
Sidney Harman (JBL)
John G. "Jay" McKnight (MRL, AMPEX)
Myron Stolaroff (AMPEX)
John Leslie (AMPEX)
Jack Mullin (tape recorders)
John Herbert Orr (magnetic tape)
Walter Weber (1907-1944) (Reichs-Rundfunk-Gesellschaft (RRG)) or German Broadcasting Company. Bias implementation and stereophony in magnetic recording.
Hugh Knowles (miniaturized transducers)
Lee DeForest (triode "Audion")
Heinz K. Thiele
Willi Studer
Dick Heyser (TDS)
Avery Robert Fisher (hifi)
Herman Hosmer Scott (hifi)
Leo Fender (Stratocaster)
Tom Dowd (recording engineer and innovator)
Peter Baxandall (tone control)
Jim Gamble (mixing console)
Title: Re: AES Historical Committee
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on March 12, 2008, 02:09:09 pm
This is a massive undertaking but perhaps technology is catching up to the task with it's ability organize and cross reference information so this can be saved for posterity.

Just looking at your list I learned about connections I was previously unaware of.

I still see a technology or product focus as a more logical organizing theme. Organized by names requires knowing who you are looking for. Of course the data could be indexed  any number of ways once in a searchable data base.

Now such an index might link to the same people from different directions. IIRC Baxandal was also active in RADAR design for the military prior to WWII. I didn't realize "that" Walsh as in Ohm loudspeaker drivers worked at Bozak earlier. Another probably coincidental connection, Bruce Zayde who designed the time aligned OHM bookshelf speakers also design some bookshelf speakers for Bozak in '80s

Audio is a small world indeed.

 
JR

Title: Re: AES Historical Committee
Post by: Lee Brenkman on March 12, 2008, 09:49:14 pm
John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Wed, 12 March 2008 11:09



Audio is a small world indeed.

 
JR





And a world with some surprising participants

As this segment of actress Hedy Lamarr's Wikipedia biography demonstrates:



Avant garde composer George Antheil, a son of German immigrants and neighbor of Lamarr, had experimented with automated control of instruments. Together, they submitted the idea of a Secret Communication System in June 1941. On 11 August 1942, U.S. Patent 2,292,387  was granted to Antheil and Hedy Kiesler Markey. This early version of frequency hopping used a piano roll to change between 88 frequencies and was intended to make radio-guided torpedoes harder for enemies to detect or jam.
The idea was impractical, ahead of its time, and not feasible due to the state of mechanical technology in 1942. It was not implemented in the USA until 1962, when it was used by U.S. military ships during a blockade of Cuba,[4] after the patent had expired. Neither Lamarr nor Antheil (who died in 1959) made any money from the patent. Perhaps due to this lag in development, the patent was little-known until 1997, when the Electronic Frontier Foundation gave Lamarr an award for this contribution.[1]
Lamarr's and Antheil's frequency-hopping idea serves as a basis for modern spread-spectrum communication technology used in devices ranging from cordless telephones to WiFi Internet connections, namely CDMA.[5] Similar patents had been granted to others earlier, like in Germany in 1935 to Telefunken engineers Paul Kotowski and Kurt Dannehl who also received U.S. Patent 2,158,662  and U.S. Patent 2,211,132  in 1939 and 1940.

Who'd a thunk it watching her in the movies...
Title: Writing about the history you know
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on March 17, 2008, 09:34:38 pm
One thing you all can do is write a little bit about the experiences you have had in live sound. If you write and publish in a magazine or online then you are a quotable reference that I can use. If you write the exact same stuff in a Wikipedia article about, say, David Blackmer, then you are interjecting original research and it won't stick. Please sharpen your pencils and write what you know about. Then get it up and out in public.

It's even fair game to scan old product brochures and put them up online. Blow the dust off your old files and get scanning!

Everybody wins if we all start recording our history.

-Bink

Scanned Altec brochures:
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/altec/catalogs/1976-ho me/page09.jpg

Scanned Bozak brochures:
http://www.hifilit.com/hifilit/Bozak/1950-2.jpg

Scanned EV38N/D microphone photos, specs, graphs and brochure:
http://www.coutant.org/re38/index.html

Lots of scanned microphone, amplifier and tape recorder ads from 1965:
http://reel2reeltexas.com/vinAd65.html

I love this stuff!
Title: Re: Writing about the history you know
Post by: Dave Barnett on March 18, 2008, 02:29:16 pm
On the EE side, don't forget Dick Burwen (or is it Burwin...?), who came up with a lot of nifty EQ circuits.
Title: Re: Writing about the history you know
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on March 18, 2008, 02:40:16 pm
Dave Barnett wrote on Tue, 18 March 2008 11:29

On the EE side, don't forget Dick Burwen (or is it Burwin...?), who came up with a lot of nifty EQ circuits.



Good call. A search at the AES e-library finds him here:
Automatic Noise Filter for Telephone Lines by Burwen, Richard S. (1974)
A Wide Dynamic Range Program Equalizer by Burwen, Richard S. (1975)

-Bink
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Jake Scudder on March 18, 2008, 02:47:00 pm
Abe has his book that is being released officially at USITT, I believe.  Judging from the pictures and stories he was sharing and sorting through late last year I assume it will have a lot of historical information, not only about himself, but about McCune, Meyer, etc.
Title: Re: Writing about the history you know
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on March 18, 2008, 03:12:22 pm
Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Tue, 18 March 2008 13:40

Dave Barnett wrote on Tue, 18 March 2008 11:29

On the EE side, don't forget Dick Burwen (or is it Burwin...?), who came up with a lot of nifty EQ circuits.



Good call. A search at the AES e-library finds him here:
Automatic Noise Filter for Telephone Lines by Burwen, Richard S. (1974)
A Wide Dynamic Range Program Equalizer by Burwen, Richard S. (1975)

-Bink


+1

I seem to recall a commercial product from him. A single ended NR sold by Burwen in early '70s (IIRC?). It was too expensive for consumer use but predated later cheaper systems by several years.

------

Another big name conspicuously missing is Amar Bose... While it may not be clear which category he belongs in, (Acoustic, Electronic, Marketing?) success on that scale deserves some notice.
-------

Modern power amp guys, Pat Quilter, Jack Sondermeyer, Gerald Stanley, etc.. list is much longer than that.  
-----

TD, Gunness, and a bunch more to put on speaker list...  
-----

Hopefully corporate websites will do some historical documentation for posterity.

JR


Title: Re: AES Historical Committee
Post by: Mike {AB} Butler on March 18, 2008, 04:45:11 pm
Bink,
On your Ampex list, you forgot Harold Lindsay, founder of modern magnetic recording, Emilar, and general all-around great accoustician..
SM4.. used an awful lot of those on gigs. Hey, they just needed something more than 100W / ch to wake them up.. haha..  Twisted Evil Nice sounding, though!
Regards,
Title: Ampex History Project
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on March 18, 2008, 05:12:57 pm
Mike {AB} Butler wrote on Tue, 18 March 2008 13:45

Bink,
On your Ampex list, you forgot Harold Lindsay, founder of modern magnetic recording, Emilar, and general all-around great accoustician..
SM4.. used an awful lot of those on gigs. Hey, they just needed something more than 100W / ch to wake them up.. haha..  Twisted Evil Nice sounding, though!
Regards,




Man, you could write down some of your Ampex stories! Flesh out details to include the things you saw. Get in touch with AES Historical Society Ampex History Project. Larry Miller's the guy to contact.  Smile

Thanks for the name drop! On my own I don't have much hope of figuring out all the who's whos of sound.

-Bink
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on March 18, 2008, 07:47:48 pm
Jake Scudder wrote on Tue, 18 March 2008 11:47

Abe has his book that is being released officially at USITT, I believe.  Judging from the pictures and stories he was sharing and sorting through late last year I assume it will have a lot of historical information, not only about himself, but about McCune, Meyer, etc.


Sign me up for a copy.  Cool

I've got Harry McCune stories of my own but not Harry McCune, Sr.--he passed before my five years at the company.

McCune used a bunch of amps including Haflers, Crests, BGWs and Carvers. Hopefully Abe will have something on Brian G. Wachner of BGW. I read on DIYAudio that Wachner was the kind of patriotic guy who would only design with parts made within his country (USA). He'd be pretty stymied trying to sustain that commitment today.  Confused

-Bink
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Milt Hathaway on March 18, 2008, 09:03:32 pm
Gary Snow - Wheatstone/Audioarts Engineering

Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Scott Raymond on March 20, 2008, 10:33:20 am
Brad Nelson wrote on Tue, 11 March 2008 16:33

I would also include Stan Miller on that list. I think he was among the first if not the first to safely "fly" speaker cabinets, among many other accomplishments.


Seems like another big one was on-stage monitor systems.
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Art Welter on March 20, 2008, 11:25:10 pm
Got to use a Stanel system in Kearny Nebraska in 1978 using aux-fed subs, don't know for sure if Stan was the first to use them, but they had the concept well sorted out at that time, 30 years ago.

Helped that he already had a prototype Yamaha PM-2000, while many of the rest of us were slogging along on PM-1000s or the like with only 2 aux sends.

Art Welter
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Scott Raymond on March 21, 2008, 02:25:04 am
Art Welter wrote on Thu, 20 March 2008 22:25

Got to use a Stanel system in Kearny Nebraska in 1978 using aux-fed subs, don't know for sure if Stan was the first to use them, but they had the concept well sorted out at that time, 30 years ago.

Helped that he already had a prototype Yamaha PM-2000, while many of the rest of us were slogging along on PM-1000s or the like with only 2 aux sends.

Art Welter


Did you have a show at the college back then?

Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on March 21, 2008, 08:13:59 pm
Art Welter wrote on Thu, 20 March 2008 20:25

Got to use a Stanel system in Kearny Nebraska in 1978 using aux-fed subs, don't know for sure if Stan was the first to use them, but they had the concept well sorted out at that time, 30 years ago.

Helped that he already had a prototype Yamaha PM-2000, while many of the rest of us were slogging along on PM-1000s or the like with only 2 aux sends.

Art Welter



What was Stan's full name? I can't seem to find out in an online search.

-Bink
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on March 21, 2008, 08:44:23 pm
Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Fri, 21 March 2008 19:13

Art Welter wrote on Thu, 20 March 2008 20:25

Got to use a Stanel system in Kearny Nebraska in 1978 using aux-fed subs, don't know for sure if Stan was the first to use them, but they had the concept well sorted out at that time, 30 years ago.

Helped that he already had a prototype Yamaha PM-2000, while many of the rest of us were slogging along on PM-1000s or the like with only 2 aux sends.

Art Welter



What was Stan's full name? I can't seem to find out in an online search.

-Bink


perhaps this stan?
http://www.prosoundweb.com/live/articles/diamond/stan.shtml

JR
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Lee Brenkman on March 21, 2008, 11:13:19 pm
John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Fri, 21 March 2008 17:44

Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Fri, 21 March 2008 19:13

Art Welter wrote on Thu, 20 March 2008 20:25

Got to use a Stanel system in Kearny Nebraska in 1978 using aux-fed subs, don't know for sure if Stan was the first to use them, but they had the concept well sorted out at that time, 30 years ago.

Helped that he already had a prototype Yamaha PM-2000, while many of the rest of us were slogging along on PM-1000s or the like with only 2 aux sends.

Art Welter



What was Stan's full name? I can't seem to find out in an online search.

-Bink


perhaps this stan?
http://www.prosoundweb.com/live/articles/diamond/stan.shtml

JR


Yep that's the guy.

As early as the late 60s Stan Miller and Stanal sound had re packaged their Altec Voice of the Theater components into boxes that set up fast, mounted on tripod stands, held up on the road and sounded pretty darn good for those times.

It was while playing a gig in the Great Plains region that Neil Diamond first encountered Stan, and the rest is as they say, history...

Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Jake Scudder on March 24, 2008, 04:19:04 pm
John Roberts  {JR} wrote on Fri, 21 March 2008 18:44

Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Fri, 21 March 2008 19:13

Art Welter wrote on Thu, 20 March 2008 20:25

Got to use a Stanel system in Kearny Nebraska in 1978 using aux-fed subs, don't know for sure if Stan was the first to use them, but they had the concept well sorted out at that time, 30 years ago.

Helped that he already had a prototype Yamaha PM-2000, while many of the rest of us were slogging along on PM-1000s or the like with only 2 aux sends.

Art Welter



What was Stan's full name? I can't seem to find out in an online search.

-Bink



perhaps this stan?
http://www.prosoundweb.com/live/articles/diamond/stan.shtml

JR


We played the tiny PAC in Big Bear Lake, CA a couple months ago.  I asked if he ever came around and they said he was involved in getting them going but not around too much.  The only trace was a stanchion holding open the stage door stenciled with "Neil Diamond Tour".
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Brad Nelson on March 24, 2008, 05:44:46 pm
Thats not surprising. Stan has a thriving bed and breakfast resort in Big Bear. He really prefers his privacy when he is "off the road" so you usually don't hear too much from him, unless Neil Diamond is out touring. It would be great if Bink or someone could sit down with him sometime and do an extensive interview about the history of live audio, and his many contributions. I'd love to hear the stories of how he came up with, the first monitor rig. flying his speaker cabinets for the first time, and more recently his input on digital mixers. {Yamaha in particular} A friend reminded me the other day that he was the first to put together a digital mixing system based around the Yamaha Promix O1. Rumour has it that Neal may be going out on tour again and if he does it will be interesting to see what Stan decides to try this time out. Best regards Brad.
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on March 24, 2008, 06:52:49 pm
Brad Nelson wrote on Mon, 24 March 2008 16:44

Thats not surprising. Stan has a thriving bed and breakfast resort in Big Bear. He really prefers his privacy when he is "off the road" so you usually don't hear too much from him, unless Neil Diamond is out touring. It would be great if Bink or someone could sit down with him sometime and do an extensive interview about the history of live audio, and his many contributions. I'd love to hear the stories of how he came up with, the first monitor rig. flying his speaker cabinets for the first time, and more recently his input on digital mixers. {Yamaha in particular} A friend reminded me the other day that he was the first to put together a digital mixing system based around the Yamaha Promix O1. Rumour has it that Neal may be going out on tour again and if he does it will be interesting to see what Stan decides to try this time out. Best regards Brad.


That's a good idea but I'm not so comfortable volunteering more of Bink's time.

Here's another thought... How about we task Mark Herman with maybe arranging for the interview. It seems like a good fit. Maybe do a series of interviews with under appreciated sound pioneers. He could publish the interviews in his magazine.

Another possibility is bring back the moderated chat format, that was used several times in the past. We would even get to submit the questions. The results of this chat could be edited and published by Mark, if interesting enough.  

JR

PS: Speaking of pioneers William F. Ludwig II,  RIP. 1917-2008. Not SR but definitely S.
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Scott Raymond on March 25, 2008, 09:57:20 am
Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Fri, 21 March 2008 19:13

Art Welter wrote on Thu, 20 March 2008 20:25

Got to use a Stanel system in Kearny Nebraska in 1978 using aux-fed subs, don't know for sure if Stan was the first to use them, but they had the concept well sorted out at that time, 30 years ago.

Helped that he already had a prototype Yamaha PM-2000, while many of the rest of us were slogging along on PM-1000s or the like with only 2 aux sends.

Art Welter



What was Stan's full name? I can't seem to find out in an online search.

-Bink


As the others have said Stan or Stanley Miller.  It's Stanal Sound, maybe that's what tripped you up.  Here's a little read about the Stanley Screamer.

Audioheritage.org

Another link that is actually a book review has a couple of photo's of the fly systems back in the day.

John Denver Concert Rigging

Page 161 and 163

Lots of interesting tidbits and trivia if you google Stanal Sound
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on March 25, 2008, 05:09:13 pm
Scott Raymond (Scott R) wrote on Tue, 25 March 2008 06:57

...Lots of interesting tidbits and trivia if you google Stanal Sound


Thanks for the links and the spelling correction! That'll get me a lot farther.  Very Happy

-Bink
Title: BGW Systems
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on March 25, 2008, 07:48:41 pm
Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Tue, 18 March 2008 16:47

...Hopefully Abe will have something on Brian G. Wachner of BGW. I read on DIYAudio that Wachner was the kind of patriotic guy who would only design with parts made within his country (USA). He'd be pretty stymied trying to sustain that commitment today...


I didn't have enough on Wachner to write a good bio but there's a larger amount of reference material out there to get a fair BGW Systems article going. Here's the BGW page as it stands so far:

BGW Systems (page on Wikipedia)

Thanks go out to Milt Hathaway for sharing some good anecdotal material. You're alright, man.  Cool

PLEASE, somebody send me a nice and sharp straight-on photo of an old BGW logo as painted on the chassis of an amplifier or something. Or upload the photo yourself and put it in the article. I'd like to have the old, familiar logo represented on this page as well as the flashy new corporate one. Actually, any pictures or scans of BGW stuff will add value.

Of course, everybody should feel free to get in there and change the article wherever they see room for new facts or fact corrections.

-Bink (ratcheting this thing along between gigs and other projects)
Title: Re: BGW Systems
Post by: Milt Hathaway on March 26, 2008, 07:54:06 am
Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Tue, 25 March 2008 18:48

PLEASE, somebody send me a nice and sharp straight-on photo of an old BGW logo as painted on the chassis of an amplifier or something. Or upload the photo yourself and put it in the article. I'd like to have the old, familiar logo represented on this page as well as the flashy new corporate one. Actually, any pictures or scans of BGW stuff will add value.


I've got some older brochures, including one with a nice picture of the older "original" line-up (85, 250, 750, etc.). I just haven't had the time to get one of my three #$*(& scanners to work. Now that I've gotten the Gig From Hell behind me, I'll see what I can do.
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Art Welter on March 26, 2008, 09:04:59 pm
Scott,

The show was Sha-Na-Na at the State Fairgrounds.

Sorry for misspelling Stanal sound, guess the old Standel (could also be misspelled) from that era partially swamped the memory banks.

The Stanley Screamers were good stuff!
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Scott Raymond on March 27, 2008, 11:55:56 am
Art Welter wrote on Wed, 26 March 2008 20:04

Scott,

The show was Sha-Na-Na at the State Fairgrounds.

Sorry for misspelling Stanal sound, guess the old Standel (could also be misspelled) from that era partially swamped the memory banks.

The Stanley Screamers were good stuff!


No biggie Art, It could go either way.  I can't remember if there was a story behind the al in the name or not. When you do a search you also get a lot of hits on German websites.  At first I though maybe stanal meant sound but I believe it is "stand" or "stood".  Stan grew up in Holdrege where I spend a lot of time and if you go to McDonalds the house is just down the block.

I can remember of Sha-Na-Na being in Lincoln at the State Fair but I can't remember if it would have been the old open air aauditorium or the new Devaney Center. (UNL Arena)  The Devaney Center opened in 1976 so hopefully you didn't have to deal with the accoustics and raked stage of the open air auditorium.   Laughing
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Art Welter on March 27, 2008, 03:17:18 pm
Scott,

Just looked in my August 1978 calendar and found that the gig I was thinking of must have been the Columbus Ohio state fair, August 17, 1978, 4:30 and 8:30 show.

The Stanal equipment probably was stenciled Kearney, Nebraska, or someone told us the company was from Kearney, and rolling out of the Dodge Travco we used as the crew bus, that’s what stuck in my memory of the day.

Art Welter
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Scott Raymond on March 28, 2008, 01:18:43 am
Wow!!! That's something to have your info from back in the 70's.  Must be interesting to go back and look up old times.
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Warrick Moore on March 31, 2008, 06:07:52 pm
Lets not forget master acoustician Russell Johnson from Artec.
index.php/fa/15068/0/
Title: Re: BGW Systems
Post by: Ian Hunt on April 08, 2008, 12:00:23 am
Found this.. from a 750a

index.php/fa/15176/0/

edits: for general sloppiness
Title: Universal Audio, UREI and Teletronix
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on April 21, 2008, 05:40:21 pm
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/69/UREI.png/180px-UREI.png

I recently added an entry for Universal Audio on Wikipedia. Before I got around to editing it, there was an album by The Delgados squatting there.  Rolling Eyes

I don't know a ton about Universal Audio, UREI and Teletronix and I bet I got a couple of things wrong as well as failing to include important bits.

I certainly didn't give the modern second generation re-introduction of Universal Audio enough ink. I don't know them very well. They deserve a more fully realized treatment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Audio

Help me out here.

-Bink
Title: Re: Universal Audio, UREI and Teletronix
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 21, 2008, 07:11:06 pm
thank you once again...

JR
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Charlie Zureki on April 22, 2008, 01:43:32 pm
  Don't forget:

 Dr. Amar Bose
 Dr. F. Alton Everest
 Dr. Eugene Patronis, Jr.
 Dr. Robert (Bob)Carver
 Mr. Mahlon D. Burkhard
 Thomas Edison
 William Sabine
 Leo Beranek
 Craig Anderton
 Harry Olson
 Richard Heyser
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on April 22, 2008, 06:15:56 pm
Charlie Hammer wrote on Tue, 22 April 2008 10:43

  Don't forget:

 Dr. Amar Bose
 Dr. F. Alton Everest
 Dr. Eugene Patronis, Jr.
 Dr. Robert (Bob)Carver
 Mr. Mahlon D. Burkhard
 Thomas Edison
 William Sabine
 Leo Beranek
 Craig Anderton
 Harry Olson
 Richard Heyser


Wiki Got Bose. Wiki Got Beranek, Carver, Edison, Sabine.

Olson has only a couple of lines of text. Sad

-Bink
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Charlie Zureki on April 22, 2008, 07:55:07 pm
 Yeh,
Thanks Bink
I read only your first posting, I'm killing time (between Projects) and have been reading a lot of posts but, my failure to catch-up ... has caught up it seems.
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on April 22, 2008, 08:24:32 pm
Charlie Hammer wrote on Tue, 22 April 2008 16:55

 Yeh,
Thanks Bink
I read only your first posting, I'm killing time (between Projects) and have been reading a lot of posts but, my failure to catch-up ... has caught up it seems.



http://www.sheltonbrothers.com/images/beers/Bink_Blond.jpg

No sweat. Have a brew while you peruse.  Cool

The past hour somebody using an anonymous IP address from the Costa Mesa area has been greatly expanding the QSC page. Other manufacturing folks could take a tip from that.  Very Happy

-Bink
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Bob Lee (QSC) on April 23, 2008, 01:27:02 pm
Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Tue, 22 April 2008 17:24


The past hour somebody using an anonymous IP address from the Costa Mesa area has been greatly expanding the QSC page. Other manufacturing folks could take a tip from that.  Very Happy

-Bink


Crap, I thought I was logged in when I added that stuff.
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Bonnie Lackey on May 21, 2008, 03:50:59 pm
I am having a luncheon at my house this summer with all the production company owners that can "qualify for the Denny's senior menu" and have my son video tape their history of providing production in the Northwest.

We have already lost so much history with owners either very ill or passing.  I want to get their road stories in a form that those that follow us can know where they came.

It should be a very fun lunch as most of the owners are over 60 and little by little are retiring or going to desk jobs.

Play it safe out there over Memorial Day weekend.  Bonnie
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Tom Young on June 07, 2008, 08:02:19 am
Bink-

Wonderful idea !

Here is an article on the history of EV, with photo's of Al Kahn ,etc.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/install/commentary/kc/ev/timecaps ule.shtml

I would not overlook these folks:

Gene Cerwiniski (not sure about that last name spelling) who founded Cerwin Vega.

Cal Perkins

Dr Oskar Heil, of AMT (air motion transformer) fame

Ron Wickersham

Ed Long (father/inventor of PZM and "time align")

Don Keele

Terry and Bill Hanley (one of these brothers did Woodstock and Beatles at Shea).

Karlson Coupler website: http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/

http://www.historyofpa.co.uk/

http://www.navyrelics.com/tribute/bellsys/westernelectric_hi story.html

The guys who founded and designed for Sound Workshop

and see this website:

http://www.audioannals.com/bio-k-l.htm

..... more to come.
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on June 07, 2008, 03:14:26 pm
Great list of links and guys.

Oskar Heil's already got a pretty good article.

Here's a link to the WikiProject Professional sound production list of articles still to be written.

When I get home from my road gig I'll add your suggestions of Ed Long, the Hanleys, John Karlson and Cal Perkins to the list.  Cool

-Bink
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on June 11, 2008, 10:52:28 am
I see several mentions of Ampex in this thread, but none about Alexander Michael Poniatoff, who was literally the A.M.P. of Ampex, and a multi-talented engineer in his own right.
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Mike {AB} Butler on June 11, 2008, 11:53:59 am
Mike,
I worked at Ampex from 1980 to 1990. You are correct about Alexander Poniatoff being the founder, but his real expertise was in stepping back.. and letting the experts shine. The 401 Broadway works were the birthing grounds for so many technologies, ideas and companies it's really hard to pin down how huge his contributions were. Ampex, for all their expertise, though, had a hard time succeeding long term in pro audio. But prior to that, they impacted just about all early implementations of studios, Theatres, and even consumer products. The fact that I worked alongside the guy who reinvented the german Magnetophone into the father of all studio tape recorders, the guy who invented longitudinal scanning for the first viable Video recording system, and the guy who first conceptualized and proto'd the helical scan system (RCA beat them to that patent), as well as 2 of the guys who went on to do THX at Dolby labs (don't forget that Ray Dolby even started at Ampex).
Ampex started out as an electric motor manufacturer for all the radar systems, BTW.
Too many stories.. too little time.  Mad
Regards,
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Guy Nix on July 24, 2008, 12:13:05 pm
Hey Bink, I may have missed it, but I didn't see Bob Heil mentioned here. I'm sure he has a lot more pictures than the ones he already posted here:http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/23816/0/

Sorry if I missed it, or it doesn't belong here.
Guy
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on July 28, 2008, 01:55:10 pm
Guy Nix wrote on Thu, 24 July 2008 09:13

Hey Bink, I may have missed it, but I didn't see Bob Heil mentioned here. I'm sure he has a lot more pictures than the ones he already posted here:http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/23816/0/

Sorry if I missed it, or it doesn't belong here.
Guy


Heil most certainly deserves a page on Wikipedia.

-Bink
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on July 28, 2008, 03:25:15 pm
Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 13:55

Guy Nix wrote on Thu, 24 July 2008 09:13

Hey Bink, I may have missed it, but I didn't see Bob Heil mentioned here. I'm sure he has a lot more pictures than the ones he already posted here:http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/23816/0/

Sorry if I missed it, or it doesn't belong here.
Guy


Heil most certainly deserves a page on Wikipedia.

-Bink

Dang, yeah! You volunteerin'?
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Ed McFarland on August 25, 2008, 02:42:11 pm
Article on Bill Hanley in Sept. 2006 FOH magazine.  He lives a coupla towns over from me.  Saw many a show with Hanley providing sound.

Ed
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Tom Young on August 25, 2008, 04:00:51 pm
Thanks for the heads up. I will make sure to look this article over.

I just rented "Monterey Pop" on DVD and there is a brief scene where they pan across the "orchestra" seating section with the stage in the background, then they zoom in closer and go from the HR stack to the HL stack. Per side there is an Altec VOT with a multicell HF horn on top, an Altec 15" direct radiator cabinet with a 2-cell HF horn on top and (2) Altec 604 cabinets.

Shortly after that, they show John Philips listening and commenting while they test the FOH system and then they zoom in on David Crosby, who is on stage and has just spoken or hummed through the system and he turns to his muso buddies and says (soomething like): "Wow ! Incredible sound for a change !"

Unbelievable !

Now in this film (as well as in the Woodstock movie) you cannot really tell what the sound quality was like for the audience other than observing that everyone appears to be "grooving". You can certainly hear when there is feedback, which doesn't occur often at all. And the soundtrack audio was not that bad. But based on (again) crowd response, plus that of the bands, etc..... I suspect that the sound (from both the Monterey Pop and Woodstock systems) was not that bad at all and especially when you consider the low power, inefficient loudspeakers, complete lack of system alignment, lack of microphone processing, etc, etc, etc. And then also consider that there are no stage monitors.

sheesh.
Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Kevin Rusch on August 27, 2008, 02:05:46 pm
I might have missed it but I have yet to find These names in the post on the topic.  But quite frankly the list should not even be started without the following names.

Richard H. Small
A. Neville Thiele
E. C. Wente
Harry Nyquist
Dr. Harry F. Olson
Benjamin B. Bauer
Don Keele

Title: Re: Historical audio engineers
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on August 27, 2008, 09:08:26 pm
Kevin Rusch wrote on Wed, 27 August 2008 11:05

I might have missed it but I have yet to find These names in the post on the topic.  But quite frankly the list should not even be started without the following names.

Richard H. Small
A. Neville Thiele
E. C. Wente
Harry Nyquist
Dr. Harry F. Olson
Benjamin B. Bauer
Don Keele




Olson recently got an expanded treatment at Wikipedia. Did you know the guy worked on video recording gear, too? I think the most amazing thing he did was chart the dynamical analogies between electrical, acoustical and mechanical systems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_F._Olson

A helluva dude.

Your other guys don't have a good showing: Thiele is only mentioned in relation to Thiele/Small, Small has his own mini page, Wente's got nothing, Bauer is MIA and Keele is AWOL.

Get in there and make an article. Or two or three or four.  Cool

-Bink
Title: More sound history at Wiki
Post by: Michael 'Bink' Knowles on January 24, 2009, 11:15:56 am
Some new articles I placed on Wikipedia deserve further attention from LABsters who have knowledge about the companies and technologies:

Yorkville Sound - the article goes into the early founding and a few of the notable products but needs some more detail. Unfortunately, the article's saddled with a big, sloppy list of current Traynor products carried over from a poorly thought-out Traynor page written by somebody who thought there was a Traynor company as opposed to it being a Yorkville brand.

Renkus-Heinz - the article needs a whole lot more about their technologies, especially recent stuff. Also: when did Jonas A. Renkus die?

Crown International - the product timeline is incomplete--it doesn't cover their development of a digital audio network codec and doesn't have anything about their digital sound gear.

LARES - Steve Barbar actually jumped in to help with some corrections. This article totally lacks a section describing how the technology works and it stops short of full disclosure about the most recent changes related to the 2008 company reformation into E-coustic Systems.

Sweetwater Sound - Since writing this article, I've been happy to see other editors jump in to 'own' it. My personal knowledge of Sweetwater is nil.

Horn speaker - I added a history section to this article with a timeline of development encompassing cones, exponential horns, tractrix horns, CD horns including Mantaray and Bi-Radial, R-H and Danley horns that have multiple driver bandpasses entering the same horn and a paragraph about Quadratic-Throat Waveguides. Companies and inventors are listed. Any horn technologies that are under-represented should be added or expanded.

FYI -

-Bink