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Church and H.O.W. – Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Mark McFarlane on October 14, 2013, 09:17:54 AM
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Any ideas for new speakers for this room?
Usage is a multi-purpose church room that acts as a chapel twice a week. Has various events all day and night every day. Primary use for the speakers is for a Contemporary Christian band twice a week. Band is not too loud (I don't have SPL levels, but not very loud). Band PA is typically vocals, some keys and acoustic guitar.
Currently they are using some cheap Yamaha 8" or 10" speakers, so anything will be an improvement.
Budget is $2,000 for the speakers and amp, I could donate another $1K if necessary. Nice but not necessary to have a sub.
Guy who runs the room is thinking passive for ease of wiring, but he only has an old QSC MX 700 amp (250W @ 4 Ohm, 150W @ 8 Ohm).
Floor plan has some 70 degree pies draw as reference. Ceiling is ~9 foot tall , but there are some columns that get in the way. There is also a projector and screen dead center in the room, so any center cluster would need to hug the ceiling, like maybe 10 inches of max hang.
Gear would likely be shipped from the USA. Local repair service available for Mackie and QSC, but probably won't be needed for passive speakers.
Any ideas?
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$2000.00 (new/used)?
Can't tell from the photos, but the speakers do look like some cheap Yamaha's.
I don't think you would need something too expensive (or elaborate) for that type of setup. I use the C (and CM) line of Yamaha's (12" w/horn) that sound pretty good for small vocal/acoustic acts that I occasionally work. The 15" version would probably work pretty good for your needs.
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/live_sound/speakers/passive_speakers/concert_club_vc_series/c112v/?mode=model
The QSC KW112 would probably do well.
For what you are needing and what the demands are, there should be plenty of options.
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$2000.00 (new/used)?
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Used probably isn't a good option, these will be internationally shipped.
I am hoping someone can come up with a creative center cluster solution that only hangs down 8-10" and covers 160 degrees. I really more interested in an install system, not speakers on sticks.
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If the QSC is local; why not a pair of their powered speakers and add a sub when money allows?
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If the QSC is local; why not a pair of their powered speakers and add a sub when money allows?
Thanks Mike for he suggestion. Anything bought locally would be 220V only, but the venue is 110V. Getting power to the speakers will be problematic. Local prices are also 30-40% above MSRP, so its cheaper to ship by air than to buy locally. Local stock would also be limited to maybe 1 or 2 models. Buying local is basically a non-starter.
If I wasn't clear before, I'm not really interested, at this point in time, in a speaker on a stick solution, I'm looking for a permanent wall mount, or better yet low profile ceiling mount that can go in front of the podium/band, and hit the front and back rows while being as invisible as possible.
I am more interested to hear about some fit-to-purpose architectural speakers. Peavey used to have something like this but I don't see it on their web site today.
It doesn't need to be a 2 speaker solution. Could be 1, or 5.
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Maybe like this...
http://omnisistem.com/products/beta-3-r4r8/
Saw something similar to this (w/out a bass module - and was all white) at a small bar. Sounded pretty good, but lacked low end. You could probably get the "elements" individually.
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Thanks Mike for he suggestion. Anything bought locally would be 220V only, but the venue is 110V. Getting power to the speakers will be problematic. Local prices are also 30-40% above MSRP, so its cheaper to ship by air than to buy locally. Local stock would also be limited to maybe 1 or 2 models. Buying local is basically a non-starter.
If I wasn't clear before, I'm not really interested, at this point in time, in a speaker on a stick solution, I'm looking for a permanent wall mount, or better yet low profile ceiling mount that can go in front of the podium/band, and hit the front and back rows while being as invisible as possible.
I am more interested to hear about some fit-to-purpose architectural speakers. Peavey used to have something like this but I don't see it on their web site today.
It doesn't need to be a 2 speaker solution. Could be 1, or 5.
I just heard these things at the WFX loudspeaker demo. They are very good bang for the buck. 2 of them would do you just fine and could be stacked as a mono center cluster, or spread out as left and right. They are powered and would stretch your budget a little bit, but not too much.
http://www.elipsisaudio.com.mx/producto.php?id=114
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Any ideas for new speakers for this room?
Usage is a multi-purpose church room that acts as a chapel twice a week. Has various events all day and night every day. Primary use for the speakers is for a Contemporary Christian band twice a week.
You know, there is a Church Sound forum for this stuff here at PSW...
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It doesn't need to be a 2 speaker solution. Could be 1, or 5.
I am not sure on the pricing (couldnt find it with a google search) but perhaps something like Renkus Heinz TRX82? Fairly slim, flyable, and couple of horn options. 990 x 60 and 120 x 60, rotatable).
http://www.renkus-heinz.com/trx82
Instead of center cluster would 3 of them work (one for each section of seating) mounted on the ceiling? I have no idea if this is a good idea or not, just pondering it myself.
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You know, there is a Church Sound forum for this stuff here at PSW...
My bad, should have posted there. Perhaps an admin will move this.
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Mark-
You are in the same position that we consultant/designers occasionally find ourselves: the budget is simply not workable.
For $2-3k you can find something that probably (this depends largely on bass content and overall SPL) has the potential to be loud enough but given the architecture and layout of seating, you will not get anything that sounds good and does not feedback.
Regardless of whether you buy bottom-of-barrel or the most expensive speakers on earth, you need DSP to ensure that the speakers work well in this space and with one another. This doesn't have to cost a lot, but you better include it. This pushes the budget up more.
In these situations you are doing the client a disservice by going along with the budget that they have come up with. Who will care if you donate your own money if it sucks ? Far better to tell them to come up with more in order to not waste money.....and time.
Also, you say that you do not want speakers on sticks. Fine. How are you advising (and overseeing) them as far as rigging safety ? Just because these are not 30-40 feet in the air does not mean they will not seriously hurt someone if they come down.
FWIW
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My quick thought on this is 3 White EV ZX1i's bolted to the roof covering a section each. Ideally I would go with something wooden, but the ZX series are pretty inexpensive and don't sound that bad. I have used ZX1s in a few small rooms/overflow spaces at my last two churches and I still think they are an ok all purpose 8" plastic cabinet.
I would pay attention to the DSP suggestion from Tom and prioritise this over the speakers.
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My quick thought on this is 3 White EV ZX1i's bolted to the roof covering a section each. Ideally I would go with something wooden, but the ZX series are pretty inexpensive and don't sound that bad. I have used ZX1s in a few small rooms/overflow spaces at my last two churches and I still think they are an ok all purpose 8" plastic cabinet.
I would pay attention to the DSP suggestion from Tom and prioritise this over the speakers.
I love the Zx1's and agree that they could work, coverage-wise. What bothers me is the absence of subs versus the unknowns of the praise band: how loud and how low do they need to go ? The Zx1's can handle a lot, but not with uncontrolled LF levels.
The Zx1's would be well-suited also because of their low weight. But you still need someone who knows how to determine suitable rigging points up in the ceiling and how to correctly fashion bridles. Etc, etc.
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I love the Zx1's and agree that they could work, coverage-wise. What bothers me is the absence of subs versus the unknowns of the praise band: how loud and how low do they need to go ? The Zx1's can handle a lot, but not with uncontrolled LF levels.
The Zx1's would be well-suited also because of their low weight. But you still need someone who knows how to determine suitable rigging points up in the ceiling and how to correctly fashion bridles. Etc, etc.
Thanks Tom for the ideas. In the OP it says 'vocals, acoustic guitars, keys' at low SPLs. 100db (C) peak at the back of the room (20' from the ceiling mount) should be adequate (95 is probably OK). A sub would allow bass to be played through the system, but it's not required, there is a bass amp in the room.
I went through the Zx1's specs and available mounts, they're not really designed for hanging horizontally, they have a mount for vertical wire hangs and a mount for pole hangs (still vertical), that's it. Initially I'd like to find a low profile box that has proper mounting hardware for horizontal mounting. If such a device can't be sourced, then something like Zx1's (or 10s or 12s) on a stick will be fine.
Regarding mounts, I still have to determine the ceiling material. Based on local construction, it may be concrete, there may be studs and wallboard
Someone's suggestion of using one element of a line array is interesting, but I don't think it will work well. Even though there are usually only 5 rows of seats, due to the low ceiling and shallow room we'll need something like 70 degree vertical to cover the front and back rows, both standing and sitting.
All the church is asking for is an incremental improvement over <$200 Yamaha speakers.
Hopefully someone makes some decent speakers designed for this application. For example, something with the profile of a Bose L1, but designed to be mounted horizontally (speaker alignment and hardware), seems like it would work great.
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I just heard these things at the WFX loudspeaker demo. They are very good bang for the buck. 2 of them would do you just fine and could be stacked as a mono center cluster, or spread out as left and right. They are powered and would stretch your budget a little bit, but not too much.
http://www.elipsisaudio.com.mx/producto.php?id=114
Thanks Tim. It looks like these are designed for vertical mount applications. I also didn't see any polar plots, or even a mention of pattern.
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I understand that you are not interested in the active QSC speaker on a stick (K or KW). However, I think if you read their user manual it will describe most of what you say you need. There is local QSC support and I'm guessing that you are not at the actual location.
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QSC AD282-HT, probably in white for that room. We just did a pair of these with a cheap GX5 amp in a similar sized room. These do great I you don't need the low program. They also have an inexpensive wall mount that is easy to install and would be relatively safe for anyone to install following the manual.
Run them mono and you can use their current amp to have $ for DSP and sub
Add a sub and DSP for better LF response.
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I understand that you are not interested in the active QSC speaker on a stick (K or KW). However, I think if you read their user manual it will describe most of what you say you need. There is local QSC support and I'm guessing that you are not at the actual location.
Thanks Mike. It's not clear from the docs if the k10 yoke can be used for a ceiling mount , the only picture is a rear mount, but a phone call can resolve this. Is there a passive version of the k10s?
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Any ideas for new speakers for this room?
Usage is a multi-purpose church room that acts as a chapel twice a week. Has various events all day and night every day. Primary use for the speakers is for a Contemporary Christian band twice a week. Band is not too loud (I don't have SPL levels, but not very loud). Band PA is typically vocals, some keys and acoustic guitar.
Currently they are using some cheap Yamaha 8" or 10" speakers, so anything will be an improvement.
Budget is $2,000 for the speakers and amp, I could donate another $1K if necessary. Nice but not necessary to have a sub.
Guy who runs the room is thinking passive for ease of wiring, but he only has an old QSC MX 700 amp (250W @ 4 Ohm, 150W @ 8 Ohm).
Floor plan has some 70 degree pies draw as reference. Ceiling is ~9 foot tall , but there are some columns that get in the way. There is also a projector and screen dead center in the room, so any center cluster would need to hug the ceiling, like maybe 10 inches of max hang.
Gear would likely be shipped from the USA. Local repair service available for Mackie and QSC, but probably won't be needed for passive speakers.
Any ideas?
Mark,
If there is availability nearby check out the Yamaha IF2112AS. Decent sound quality, asymmetrical horn that can be quite handy in trying to accommodate a low ceiling longer throw situation.
Price once you include an amp may be too high though.
Lee
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Mark,
If there is availability nearby check out the Yamaha IF2112AS. Decent sound quality, asymmetrical horn that can be quite handy in trying to accommodate a low ceiling longer throw situation.
Price once you include an amp may be too high though.
Lee
Thanks Lee.
Have you heard the IF2208's? These seem to be the largest speakers they have ceiling mounts for... Those 12's with 3" compression drivers look pretty nice, though, but I think we'd have to mount them on the back wall, behind the podium, which is problematic. They are too big to hang in the middle of the room, in front of the projector.
The beams combined with the projector in this room really mess with options. Center mount speakers are in the way of the projector, and the beams lower the effective ceiling height to 8' if you want to hang on the beams. Three ceiling mounted speakers might be the best solution, on each side of the beam.
Do you know if Yamaha's modeling software is free?
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QSC AD282-HT, probably in white for that room. We just did a pair of these with a cheap GX5 amp in a similar sized room. These do great I you don't need the low program. They also have an inexpensive wall mount that is easy to install and would be relatively safe for anyone to install following the manual.
Run them mono and you can use their current amp to have $ for DSP and sub
Add a sub and DSP for better LF response.
Thanks Eric, I'll have a look at these tomorrow.
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Thanks Tim. It looks like these are designed for vertical mount applications. I also didn't see any polar plots, or even a mention of pattern.
They are a very new product from a smaller company. I walked the pattern and it is very wide. 100+ degrees horizontal. They are 10 degrees vertical when used in singles. The street price would be about 2 grand each, but I don't know what shipping and taxes may be to you.
1 cabinet would suffice as a starter. The box gets quite loud.
Also, there is the Toa HX5 system. Those things are very cheap and have a ton of rigging options. Combine 2 of those with a powered sub and you'll be in business. They are around 500-ish street price last time I checked. Your current amp would work fine for them.
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Thanks Lee.
Have you heard the IF2208's?
Do you know if Yamaha's modeling software is free?
Yes, they sound quite good for the size and price.
The software is free.
Lee
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You might consider using a "column" type "line array" system here, mounted on the front or more likely side walls. The Bose MA-12 has worked very well for me in difficult (very wide) rooms not needing huge SPL's. With the flat floor, only 1 unit per side could work here, although a stacked pair per side, with a sub for the lows would be better. TOA makes quality column arrays, as does Tannoy. Here's video on Community's Entasys series (although it really does give much useful info you can see different sizes):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8nUTbBOCG0&feature=youtu.be
Most of them are designed to be painted to match the room.
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They are a very new product from a smaller company. I walked the pattern and it is very wide. 100+ degrees horizontal. They are 10 degrees vertical when used in singles. The street price would be about 2 grand each, but I don't know what shipping and taxes may be to you.
1 cabinet would suffice as a starter. The box gets quite loud.
Also, there is the Toa HX5 system. Those things are very cheap and have a ton of rigging options. Combine 2 of those with a powered sub and you'll be in business. They are around 500-ish street price last time I checked. Your current amp would work fine for them.
The TOA Hx5 looks very interesting, but the standard 4-box hang is going to be at least 24" with rigging. That won't work very well 'in front of the band' with a 9 foot ceiling. Along the back wall they might be OK, but then the pattern is getting in the mics.
I may need to try some speakers on sticks along the back wall (one directly behind the podium) and see how much GBF we can get. That will help determine if that position is workable or not. My preference is to have the speakers ceiling mounted 6' out from the wall (with screen), but I can't handle more than 12" of hang, and 6" would be better.
The current room speaker setup (see photo), although asymmetrical, I guess works fairly well. THe vocalists are all on the right side of the room (marked Band) while instrumentalists are on the other side of the room (also marked Band).
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Thanks Tom for the ideas. In the OP it says 'vocals, acoustic guitars, keys' at low SPLs. 100db (C) peak at the back of the room (20' from the ceiling mount) should be adequate (95 is probably OK). A sub would allow bass to be played through the system, but it's not required, there is a bass amp in the room.
I went through the Zx1's specs and available mounts, they're not really designed for hanging horizontally, they have a mount for vertical wire hangs and a mount for pole hangs (still vertical), that's it. Initially I'd like to find a low profile box that has proper mounting hardware for horizontal mounting. If such a device can't be sourced, then something like Zx1's (or 10s or 12s) on a stick will be fine.
Regarding mounts, I still have to determine the ceiling material. Based on local construction, it may be concrete, there may be studs and wallboard
Someone's suggestion of using one element of a line array is interesting, but I don't think it will work well. Even though there are usually only 5 rows of seats, due to the low ceiling and shallow room we'll need something like 70 degree vertical to cover the front and back rows, both standing and sitting.
All the church is asking for is an incremental improvement over <$200 Yamaha speakers.
Hopefully someone makes some decent speakers designed for this application. For example, something with the profile of a Bose L1, but designed to be mounted horizontally (speaker alignment and hardware), seems like it would work great.
Mark,
I think you were looking at the specs for the ZX1 and not the ZX1i. We have a pair of ZX1i installed in our college room at our church, in the basement. They are mounted horizontally using the supplied mounting arms. I can get you some pictures tonight of what we have.
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Mark,
I think you were looking at the specs for the ZX1 and not the ZX1i. We have a pair of ZX1i installed in our college room at our church, in the basement. They are mounted horizontally using the supplied mounting arms. I can get you some pictures tonight of what we have.
You are correct Mike, I was looking at the wrong one. Thanks.
I can't tell from the i version documents if it can get the angle I need with a ceiling mount. All of the pics I looked at show it pointing 'down' too much. Can you mount horizontally and get it tilting down only 20-30 degrees?
It looks like I could use the 90*50 version and optimize the position for 'standing'. When people are sitting it will be mostly spoken word so the pattern isn't quite as important.
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When people are sitting it will be mostly spoken word so the pattern isn't quite as important.
When intelligibility is most critical is often when the pattern may also be the most critical. You may not worry as much about the pattern at the extremes of the response but throughout the speech range the pattern may indeed be important.
You might want to look at something like some of the EAW UB series products or other 'under balcony' speakers that are designed for horizontal mounting.
Be aware that if you use a nominal vertically oriented box in a horizontal orientation with the horn rotated then rotating the horn can change the interactions of the horn with the woofer through crossover and can result in a different and typically not identified horizontal pattern at those frequencies.
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You are correct Mike, I was looking at the wrong one. Thanks.
I can't tell from the i version documents if it can get the angle I need with a ceiling mount. All of the pics I looked at show it pointing 'down' too much. Can you mount horizontally and get it tilting down only 20-30 degrees?
It looks like I could use the 90*50 version and optimize the position for 'standing'. When people are sitting it will be mostly spoken word so the pattern isn't quite as important.
Here are a few pictures I snapped with my phone last night.
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/4soundman/church/IMAG05321.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/4soundman/media/church/IMAG05321.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/4soundman/church/IMAG05331.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/4soundman/media/church/IMAG05331.jpg.html)
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/4soundman/church/IMAG05341.jpg) (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/4soundman/media/church/IMAG05341.jpg.html)
As you can see the mounting arms are attached to a 10' piece of Uni-Strut, via + shaped plate, spring nuts in the channel and standard nuts and bolts attaching the bracket to the plate outside of the channel. The Uni-Strut channel is supported from the floor joists above via threaded rod and L brackets attached to the floor joists with bolts and nuts.
The horns on our speakers are rotated so that they are 90 deg horizontal in this position. I think our down tilt on them is roughly around 30 deg. I can probably check on that later.
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Here are a few pictures I snapped with my phone last night.
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Thanks mike, that relieves my fear of getting hem close to the ceiling. These look like a good solution. Do the i's sound as similar to the Zx1A's that everyone has been raving about? I assume they use the same drivers.
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When intelligibility is most critical is often when the pattern may also be the most critical. You may not worry as much about the pattern at the extremes of the response but throughout the speech range the pattern may indeed be important.
You might want to look at something like some of the EAW UB series products or other 'under balcony' speakers that are designed for horizontal mounting.
Be aware that if you use a nominal vertically oriented box in a horizontal orientation with the horn rotated then rotating the horn can change the interactions of the horn with the woofer through crossover and can result in a different and typically not identified horizontal pattern at those frequencies.
Thanks Brad. WIth 6 rows of chairs I didn't think intelligibility of speech would be a problem, but we an certainly play with aim and tilt.
I'll have a look at the EAW UB series.
Is the problem rotating the horn typically in a changing phase response in the crossover region, or just that the rotated pattern isn't measured by the manufacturer?
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Thanks mike, that relieves my fear of getting hem close to the ceiling. These look like a good solution. Do the i's sound as similar to the Zx1A's that everyone has been raving about? I assume they use the same drivers.
Same drivers as the ZX1 and the ZXA1. We have these 2 ZX1i speakers, and 6 of the Passive ZX1 that we use as floor monitors in our sanctuary. The ZXA1 shows that is is biamped with an 800watt amp, with a crossover point of 1.8KHz where the passive speakers are crossed over at 1.7KHz. That is the only difference I see in the specs, however I assume EV did some optimization on the Powered unit, since the specs say that it gets its amp tech from their TG series amps it may have a preset DSP built into the amp. We power ours with Crown XTI 2000 amps and absolutely love the sound we get from them. I want more of them for other rooms in our church.
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Mark,
Have you considered that you likely have a fair amount of space above the T-Grid Ceiling? I've been thinking about that a little bit and I think you could rig the back end of your box above the grid and have just the face of the speaker below the grid. We work with grid ceilings all the time and, at least here, I could get my grid guy to patch it all up and work the ceiling tiles around the speaker for a couple hundred bucks.
Just a thought, you may not be on as tight of a space constraint as you thought...
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Mark,
Have you considered that you likely have a fair amount of space above the T-Grid Ceiling? I've been thinking about that a little bit and I think you could rig the back end of your box above the grid and have just the face of the speaker below the grid. We work with grid ceilings all the time and, at least here, I could get my grid guy to patch it all up and work the ceiling tiles around the speaker for a couple hundred bucks.
Just a thought, you may not be on as tight of a space constraint as you thought...
Ryan,
I think you are confusing my pictures with Mark's. It looks like his pictures have a drywall ceiling, especially since his florescent light fixtures hang down from the ceiling.
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Mark,
Have you considered that you likely have a fair amount of space above the T-Grid Ceiling? I've been thinking about that a little bit and I think you could rig the back end of your box above the grid and have just the face of the speaker below the grid. We work with grid ceilings all the time and, at least here, I could get my grid guy to patch it all up and work the ceiling tiles around the speaker for a couple hundred bucks.
Just a thought, you may not be on as tight of a space constraint as you thought...
Hi Ryan,
I think you are confusing Mike's pics with my pics in the OP. I have a solid ceiling to deal with.
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It appears I have confused Mikes Pics with Marks. ;)
as you were...
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I went back to the room today to refine some measurements. A new floor plan is attached.
Basically, hanging anything between the projector and the screen isn't going to work, we need to use the top inches of the screen.
Also, the beams that cut the room in thirds are 12" thick, so the ceiling at those locations is down from <9' to <8'. Hanging on the beams (i.e. a 12" cabinet would hang down to 7') isn't really going to work in this multipurpose room.
In the diagram below I've shown a 3 90-degree speaker solution as an example. Two horizontally mounted 'big speakers' to cover the left and right sides of the rooms and one smaller speaker to cover the hole in the middle.
We have a couple 5" Tannoy speakers that sound amazingly good and might be useful as the center sections fill(s), although matching tonality may be a challenge..
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I went back to the room today to refine some measurements. A new floor plan is attached.
Basically, hanging anything between the projector and the screen isn't going to work, we need to use the top inches of the screen.
Also, the beams that cut the room in thirds are 12" thick, so the ceiling at those locations is down from <9' to <8'. Hanging on the beams (i.e. a 12" cabinet would hang down to 7') isn't really going to work in this multipurpose room.
In the diagram below I've shown a 3 90-degree speaker solution as an example. Two horizontally mounted 'big speakers' to cover the left and right sides of the rooms and one smaller speaker to cover the hole in the middle.
We have a couple 5" Tannoy speakers that sound amazingly good and might be useful as the center sections fill(s), although matching tonality may be a challenge..
Mark,
Would it be feasible to adjust the projector, maybe just get it to hang lower with a new mount? something like this:
any of the mounts form Omni mount
http://www.omnimount.com/products/ceiling_and_projector_mounts/projector_mounts/
and a pipe extension like this
http://www.omnimount.com/products/ceiling_and_projector_mounts/projector_mounts/accessories/npt_pipes/
That would maybe allow you to hang the projector lower and project under the speaker cabinet and still use the entire screen.
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I went back to the room today to refine some measurements. A new floor plan is attached.
Basically, hanging anything between the projector and the screen isn't going to work, we need to use the top inches of the screen.
Also, the beams that cut the room in thirds are 12" thick, so the ceiling at those locations is down from <9' to <8'. Hanging on the beams (i.e. a 12" cabinet would hang down to 7') isn't really going to work in this multipurpose room.
In the diagram below I've shown a 3 90-degree speaker solution as an example. Two horizontally mounted 'big speakers' to cover the left and right sides of the rooms and one smaller speaker to cover the hole in the middle.
We have a couple 5" Tannoy speakers that sound amazingly good and might be useful as the center sections fill(s), although matching tonality may be a challenge..
Your drawing is nice and geometrically pretty but, as was pointed out to me once and now have learned by experience, the 90 degrees may not be 90 degrees at all frequencies and at all distances. Best to get more information on the dispersion patterns to verify that they will be good for this particular room. You might already have taken this into account but, I thought I would bring it up.
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Mark, I can't give you any product recommendations, but I've been thinking about a different approach to deployment. You've basically got a split stage, so a center cluster is going to create a problem for half the people in the room in that the sound will be coming from the wrong place.
Your budget may not allow this, but what about a left cluster and a right cluster? Stuff on the left stage would feed to the left cluster, and stuff on the right stage would feed to the right cluster.
This does add another problem: coverage. People on the left side of the room may not get adequate coverage from the right cluster, and vice versa. You might be able to overcome this by adding a delayed signal from the right stage to the left speaker of the left cluster (and vice versa). But at that point, you're probably way over $3K, and it complicates the situation when you're playing back video with audio on the screen, or if you've got musicians playing on both stages at the same time.
EDIT: Duh, I just looked over your last post again and basically that's what your most recent concept is. Sorry 'bout that!
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The whole problem of the ceiling, the beams, and the projector goes away if you mount column arrays to the side walls near the front of the room, basically where the speakers on stands are located. Here's another good one:
http://slsaudio.com/SLS%20Audio%20LS6593v2%20Ribbon%20Line%20Array%20Column.htm
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Your drawing is nice and geometrically pretty but, as was pointed out to me once and now have learned by experience, the 90 degrees may not be 90 degrees at all frequencies and at all distances. Best to get more information on the dispersion patterns to verify that they will be good for this particular room. You might already have taken this into account but, I thought I would bring it up.
Thanks Kent, I fully understand the frequency-dependent pattern issues. The 90 degree pies are just provided as reference points.
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Mark,
Would it be feasible to adjust the projector, maybe just get it to hang lower with a new mount? something like this:
any of the mounts form Omni mount
http://www.omnimount.com/products/ceiling_and_projector_mounts/projector_mounts/
and a pipe extension like this
http://www.omnimount.com/products/ceiling_and_projector_mounts/projector_mounts/accessories/npt_pipes/
That would maybe allow you to hang the projector lower and project under the speaker cabinet and still use the entire screen.
Nice idea, but I think to project under a 12" hung box and still hit the top of the screen the projector would need to hang close to 2 feet below the ceiling, putting it a little under 7' off the floor. Probably not going to fly in this room, but a good idea. If we can find some speakers that only hang 6 inches when tilted, then it may be a solution.
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The whole problem of the ceiling, the beams, and the projector goes away if you mount column arrays to the side walls near the front of the room, basically where the speakers on stands are located. Here's another good one:
http://slsaudio.com/SLS%20Audio%20LS6593v2%20Ribbon%20Line%20Array%20Column.htm
Thanks Scott. Anything with decent pattern control would work where the current speakers are. In fact, that has an advantage in that sometimes the room setup is rotated 90 degrees, and the wall locations would still cover the room fairly well. My only real concern about those positions is the imaging, but it may be a decent compromise.
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Is the problem rotating the horn typically in a changing phase response in the crossover region, or just that the rotated pattern isn't measured by the manufacturer?
It is a phase reponse issue but due to the degree of interaction between the drivers changing. Say you had a nominal 90 degree horizontal by 60 degree vertical horn in a typical two-way box with the horn over the woofer, in that case the interactions between the horn and woofer through crossover are related to the smaller vertical pattern. But if you rotate the horn now you have a wider horn pattern interacting with the woofer and thus different interactions through crossover. That can result in a different vertical pattern through crossover and in some cases some significant lobing and nulls. Unfortunately, manufacturers rarely provide pattern information for speakers with the horn rotated.
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I think you will find that the SPL throughout the room will be so even that it will be hard to find the source! The Bose MA12 will require the Bose digital processor ($500). The SLS, TOA, or Community Entasys, etc. will need a DSP or active crossover.
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I think you will find that the SPL throughout the room will be so even that it will be hard to find the source!
But the intelligibility and gain before feedback may not be so great. The problem I see with most column speakers is that they may have too great a horizontal pattern for being in the locations of the existing speakers. You seem to end up potentially balancing too much level at the microphones versus too much energy hitting the rear wall. And if the system is stereo you still have distance affects to address for coverage, for example the pulpit being in the pattern and closer than many listeners, while if mono you seem to have tremendous overlap in coverage in the center of the room. Good coverage is not just lots of coverage but coverage where you want it and not where you don't.
Mark, matching tonality of any center fill may not be as much of an issues as it seems. Because the left and right mains have less directionality at low frequencies you may want to roll off the low end of the center fills and let the mains carry that. You may also want to EQ any center fills differently due to their relationship to the stage and pulpit microphone. So it would be nice for them to have dedicated processing or EQ but actually matching response may not be as critical.
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Thanks Lee.
Have you heard the IF2208's? These seem to be the largest speakers they have ceiling mounts for... Those 12's with 3" compression drivers look pretty nice, though, but I think we'd have to mount them on the back wall, behind the podium, which is problematic. They are too big to hang in the middle of the room, in front of the projector.
The beams combined with the projector in this room really mess with options. Center mount speakers are in the way of the projector, and the beams lower the effective ceiling height to 8' if you want to hang on the beams. Three ceiling mounted speakers might be the best solution, on each side of the beam.
Do you know if Yamaha's modeling software is free?
Mark,
Another great sounding option that sounds much more like something far larger is the Martin DD6. Astounding bass response for the size, output capability more like an 8". May be out of your budget.
Lee
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But the intelligibility and gain before feedback may not be so great. The problem I see with most column speakers is that they may have too great a horizontal pattern for being in the locations of the existing speakers. You seem to end up potentially balancing too much level at the microphones versus too much energy hitting the rear wall. And if the system is stereo you still have distance affects to address for coverage, for example the pulpit being in the pattern and closer than many listeners, while if mono you seem to have tremendous overlap in coverage in the center of the room. Good coverage is not just lots of coverage but coverage where you want it and not where you don't.
Mark, matching tonality of any center fill may not be as much of an issues as it seems. Because the left and right mains have less directionality at low frequencies you may want to roll off the low end of the center fills and let the mains carry that. You may also want to EQ any center fills differently due to their relationship to the stage and pulpit microphone. So it would be nice for them to have dedicated processing or EQ but actually matching response may not be as critical.
THanks Brad, as always, a thoughtful and helpful response.
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Mark,
Another great sounding option that sounds much more like something far larger is the Martin DD6. Astounding bass response for the size, output capability more like an 8". May be out of your budget.
Lee
Lee, the Martin DD6 does look like good option. The differential pattern (particularly the asymmetrical vertical SPL output they claim) is interesting and would probably work well if it works as advertised. But would require rotating the horn which some claim is less than ideal. Good size, decent mounting options. At around 1K/box it is pushing the budget, but I think I can deal with that.
I also just learned that we may need to be able to connect two different sources to this system, one an existing 'full console', the other an existing 8 channel 'simple mixer' that is used by many groups through the week for speech only or video presentations. Another option is to keep the existing Tannoys hooked to the simple mixer, in which case we need to purchase a center fill speaker for the new system (since we can't repurpose the Tannoys if they stay connected to the current room system). That is probably the simplest solution.
Considering the budget, could I be publicly executed using a Behringer DCX 2496 DSP with Martins? 3in*6out would theoretically give us the crossovers and parametric EQ needed to voice a center channel and add a sub later. Another option would be running in true mono and using a DRPA (2*6). This is assuming both DSPs allow a 'route any combination of inputs to any combination of outputs' without any stupid built in restrictions. I have really researched either DSP. Actually, aux-fed subs is probably not going to be adopted by the people that use this room, so a one-in DSP might be fine.