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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Larry Jedik on February 10, 2017, 10:20:14 AM
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I'm seeing more and more rack mount mixers hit the market. I understand why someone would want this, but having to solely rely on a tablet device or computer to access my interface would personally scare the heck out of me.
I use my iPad to run shows all the time once sound check is done, but still find myself using the board with physical faders when I need to make deeper adjustments to compressors, gates & EQ.
Just looking to see what other opinions are in this popular trend, will it last or is it a fad and everyone will end up back to mixing desks?
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I'm seeing more and more rack mount mixers hit the market. I understand why someone would want this, but having to solely rely on a tablet device or computer to access my interface would personally scare the heck out of me.
I use my iPad to run shows all the time once sound check is done, but still find myself using the board with physical faders when I need to make deeper adjustments to compressors, gates & EQ.
Just looking to see what other opinions are in this popular trend, will it last or is it a fad and everyone will end up back to mixing desks?
Absolutely not a fad.
What I can possibly see in the future is bigger tablet mix surfaces. (like the Slate Raven).....but I think that may be a ways away.
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I'm seeing more and more rack mount mixers hit the market. I understand why someone would want this, but having to solely rely on a tablet device or computer to access my interface would personally scare the heck out of me.
I use my iPad to run shows all the time once sound check is done, but still find myself using the board with physical faders when I need to make deeper adjustments to compressors, gates & EQ.
Just looking to see what other opinions are in this popular trend, will it last or is it a fad and everyone will end up back to mixing desks?
I find myself using tablet only more and more. Some things are easier to use on the tablet. Still prefer the desk whenever possible, however in club land, it is becoming less of an option.
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A Soundcraft SIE 1 is rackmountable and doesn't NEED a tablet to make it work, as are several others. Just depends on what you are prepared to pay and what you are willing to forgo.
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I see rack mount (and smaller) mixers becoming more and more popular. I do have concerns with mixers that MUST have control by another device, such as the Behringer X-air mixers. The problem is, if your network connection breaks, you're screwed. With the X32 Rack, you have access to all controls on the rack device.
For live mixing, a tablet offers the convenience of being able to roam the space, but does not offer the tactile feedback of a physical surface. With a physical surface, you can operate the basic functions without looking at the unit. With a tablet, you simply can't. Until tactile feedback is available on a tablet, I'll always prefer mixing on a full surface.
As far as rack mixers go, I see more going in that direction, and I really hope that more players get into the physical surface controlling said rack units. A&H iLive has it, and does it quite well. ALL of the processing is in the rack, and the mixer is just a dummy controller. disconnect the mixer, and sound still passes. It's what others have with tablet control, but with a physical surface involved. I'm surprised that isn't a more common approach.
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I can see the rack mounted "mixers" are here to stay but the whole wireless "your device here" control has it's limitations.
Possibly, there will be physical, tethered control surfaces that are more compact but still have the "touch" of a regular fader and knob console.
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They have their place, and they're definitely here to stay. I like my Qu-Pac and it has its niche in my inventory, but I wouldn't try mixing a full-blown musical on it. The tactile feedback is just too important for things like that - when I'm adjusting a half dozen faders at a time, or I need to kill a channel NOW. To me, rack mixers are more applicable to the band/bar/club group that are only mixing a handful of channels (read as 16 or less) and don't need much adjustment after sound check. I use mine for corporate work when I'm only mixing a single mic or two and maybe some filler music... I'm in the same boat too that any rack mixer I must rely on needs to have an actual interface (such as the Qu-Pac, X32 Rack, etc.). In all, it's just another tool in the box and it's up to you to weigh the pros and cons when considering purchase!
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As others have stated, for bar venues, I can see no future for the full console. The space and weight consideration of those moving around from bar to bar (and up and down the basement stairs) is an insurmountable advantage for the wireless rack mixer.
For larger venues which are specifically designed for musical entertainment, consoles will remain the norm IMO. As pointed out, larger and more complex shows get difficult on a tablet. I would guess that even some of these shows will be infiltrated with rack mixers, but I would think it would be the minority.
For touring acts, only digital consoles will be present IMO.
Rack mixers are here to stay for sure. A&H are ahead of the game with the concept of a dedicated rack mixer and an independent head console. It may well be that all mixers gravitate this direction so that rack mixers are the only thing out there in any venue. The only thing that would be optional would be the remote physical console.
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Hi Larry,
It appears you are addressing mixers like the
A&H QU-Pac/SB, Behr X32R, Mackie DL32R, Presonus RM16/32AI, Soundcraft Ui24R, Yamaha TF-Rack??
Much of my work is dances.
Years ago this meant a mixer at the back or side of the hall, and this worked ok.
Being able to mix with a tablet and go out on the dance floor has made my sound better.
I also do quite a few weddings and other events where years ago sometimes this meant mixing from behind the band.
Now I'm out in the hall.
I'm now doing almost all my really small shows on a Mackie DL1608, and anything larger on DL32Rs.
Mackie now has the Axis surface with real faders, but there's no place for one on a dance floor.
For some concerts and other events real faders would be handy, but to be honest, I'm now pretty quick and comfortable on the tablet.
If the router(carry a spare, and tablet, and mixer) totally goes, I can
dock a tablet in the DL1608, and
have setup the wired adapters to tablet for the DL32R just in case at larger events.
The Apple adapters work, but the
Rebotnix RB-Connect is simpler: https://rbconnect.rebornix.com
(A new unit with pass-through power is in the works.)
At a concert in a soft-seat venue a motorized fader on a bigger digital mixer almost failed.
Every layer change had it struggling to get in position, with me helping as best possible,
accompanied by lots of noticeable whirring noise. No fun.
Not cleaning and replacing motorized faders is fine with me.
Every choice is a compromise.
Choose what works best for you.
Thanks and good health, Weogo
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I'm seeing more and more rack mount mixers hit the market. I understand why someone would want this, but having to solely rely on a tablet device or computer to access my interface would personally scare the heck out of me.
I use my iPad to run shows all the time once sound check is done, but still find myself using the board with physical faders when I need to make deeper adjustments to compressors, gates & EQ.
Just looking to see what other opinions are in this popular trend, will it last or is it a fad and everyone will end up back to mixing desks?
Rack mount mixers are a fad that started decades ago...
They will fade away when racks go away too...
JR
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After a couple gigs with a rented mackie dl1608, I thought I might prefer real faders.
now, after a couple gigs with a rented soundcraft qu 16 using my laptop, including one with wifi connection issues, I might buy a midas mr18 this year.
If I was doing bigger shows, I might think otherwise, but I'm not, and the first qu16 gig was one of my best ever mixes. Not running a multicore is huge
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... Not running a multicore is huge
My back certainly thinks so ;)
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Rack mixers are here to stay for sure. A&H are ahead of the game with the concept of a dedicated rack mixer and an independent head console. It may well be that all mixers gravitate this direction so that rack mixers are the only thing out there in any venue. The only thing that would be optional would be the remote physical console.
I agree the iLive is the right solution I just wish it was better executed.
1 - Backup PS connection is great
2 - The encoders are very nice and visible
3 - The screen is 10 years behind current technology, looks terrible
4 - UI is even worse
5 - You can get two M32's and DL32's for the price of just the iLive-80
6 - The software on the iPad is usable but so far behind the X32/M32 app anyone who has ever used the other product is going to be very frustrated. It's a giant step backward
The Mackie Axis stuff is interesting. The Mackie app is very good but the surface is all wrong IMHO. It just doesn't work for me.
If MG would gut an M32 and make it a control surface so you could control a Core and a stage box from it would hit on all points for me. Having an HA option for a pair of cores would be even more awesome.
BTW I was with another IT geek last night and we commented on running two 5Ghz wireless networks with a second wireless NIC on a tablet and using a routing protocol for failover. That would be slick. Some kind of dock for an iPad that is easy to carry, has two industrial grade nics, an all day battery, a couple of audio interfaces for cueing would be really slick.
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I agree the iLive is the right solution I just wish it was better executed.
1 - Backup PS connection is great
2 - The encoders are very nice and visible
3 - The screen is 10 years behind current technology, looks terrible
4 - UI is even worse
5 - You can get two M32's and DL32's for the price of just the iLive-80
6 - The software on the iPad is usable but so far behind the X32/M32 app anyone who has ever used the other product is going to be very frustrated. It's a giant step backward
The Mackie Axis stuff is interesting. The Mackie app is very good but the surface is all wrong IMHO. It just doesn't work for me.
If MG would gut an M32 and make it a control surface so you could control a Core and a stage box from it would hit on all points for me. Having an HA option for a pair of cores would be even more awesome.
BTW I was with another IT geek last night and we commented on running two 5Ghz wireless networks with a second wireless NIC on a tablet and using a routing protocol for failover. That would be slick. Some kind of dock for an iPad that is easy to carry, has two industrial grade nics, an all day battery, a couple of audio interfaces for cueing would be really slick.
Haven't worked with the iLive so I can't comment on the implementation of the GUI ;) I was referring to the architecture. Of course, many a great architecture has been over-shadowed by a poor implementation.
As far as a dual band wireless for fail-over, the problem is that the current wireless implementation of 802.11 requires a separate NIC for each connection. Most tablets and laptops (all of them that I know of anyway) have only a single NIC inside them. Some PC's have more.
What you are describing seems to be more like what might be found on a safety system where redundancy is critical to the FEMA. Perhaps some day.
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The end all be all? Absolutely not. They are a tool that will be more acceptable for certain types of shows where mission critical is not a problem. I think you will see them more and more for bands, lower end corporate and dare I say mid level concert events where space is at a premium. It is not a fad that is for sure though. Until the box itself can be replaced, they will always have a home. I own one, love it and wouldn't mind expanding on it. When things are mission critical though, I still prefer a hard surface to work on.
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Haven't worked with the iLive so I can't comment on the implementation of the GUI ;) I was referring to the architecture. Of course, many a great architecture has been over-shadowed by a poor implementation.
As far as a dual band wireless for fail-over, the problem is that the current wireless implementation of 802.11 requires a separate NIC for each connection. Most tablets and laptops (all of them that I know of anyway) have only a single NIC inside them. Some PC's have more.
What you are describing seems to be more like what might be found on a safety system where redundancy is critical to the FEMA. Perhaps some day.
I should add we are IT geeks so a rooted android tablet with an external NIC running OSPF.
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I agree the iLive is the right solution I just wish it was better executed.
1 - Backup PS connection is great
2 - The encoders are very nice and visible
3 - The screen is 10 years behind current technology, looks terrible
4 - UI is even worse
5 - You can get two M32's and DL32's for the price of just the iLive-80
6 - The software on the iPad is usable but so far behind the X32/M32 app anyone who has ever used the other product is going to be very frustrated. It's a giant step backward
The Mackie Axis stuff is interesting. The Mackie app is very good but the surface is all wrong IMHO. It just doesn't work for me.
If MG would gut an M32 and make it a control surface so you could control a Core and a stage box from it would hit on all points for me. Having an HA option for a pair of cores would be even more awesome.
BTW I was with another IT geek last night and we commented on running two 5Ghz wireless networks with a second wireless NIC on a tablet and using a routing protocol for failover. That would be slick. Some kind of dock for an iPad that is easy to carry, has two industrial grade nics, an all day battery, a couple of audio interfaces for cueing would be really slick.
The ilive is 10 years old. Of course the screen is old tech.
It was replaced 2 years ago with the dLive.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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If MG would gut an M32 and make it a control surface so you could control a Core and a stage box from it would hit on all points for me. Having an HA option for a pair of cores would be even more awesome.
IOW, the Behringer/Midas version of a PreSonus Cs18ai. I think they'd say, the current X32/M32 line is inexpensive to the point that they wouldn't save you a lot of money if the preamps and mic inputs were stripped out to create a "control surface only" module.
http://www.presonus.com/products/studiolive-cs18ai
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The ilive is 10 years old. Of course the screen is old tech.
It was replaced 2 years ago with the dLive.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
I did not know about the D-live C Class. I had thought the dLive was way above the iLive. I see a C Class C2500 and a CDM32 can be had for about 10k. I have only seen one dLive and frankly it was the most approachable big boy console I have ever touched. Any time I have been in front of a large Digico or Midas (especially the Midas, what a steep learning curve) alway needed a lot of help getting around. The dLive was very approachable. I think someone with small digital mixer experience would fell quite comfortable on the C-Class.
I had been looking at an Digico SD-9 but had been holding back as I was concerned who would be able to use it except for a few folks. I am going to give the C-Class a really hard look.
Timely post thank Rob!
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I had been looking at an Digico SD-9 but had been holding back as I was concerned who would be able to use it except for a few folks. I am going to give the C-Class a really hard look.
A church I mix at irregularly just switched from the SD-9 to a GLD for their contemporary worship space because they were constantly having trouble getting people that could mix on it. I had gotten reasonably competent on it before they switched, but it took a while. The GLD I was mixing on just fine very quickly and was mixing a service barely having seen the board before. I realize the 2 consoles are in different classes, but I do feel that someone who wasn't familiar with Digico would have a hard time with the SD-9.
Rack mount mixers are a fad that started decades ago...
They will fade away when racks go away too...
JR
I recently moved my XR18 out of a rack case into a pelican style one to save space and protect it better. ;D Guess the racks are already on the way out at least on the small end of things.
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My back certainly thinks so ;)
I've let wheels and reels do much of the work for me, but its more of the time and stress factors routing them around without interfering with where the audience will flow
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I've let wheels and reels do much of the work for me, but its more of the time and stress factors routing them around without interfering with where the audience will flow
Had wheels on my MixWiz rig, but I still had to lift up and down stairs. The box was still as big as any 15" 3 way speaker..... and as you mention, the 100' reel snake wasn't light either.
Another advantage of digital mixing in general is that I find my starting point for the mix is always very good since no knobs get moved about.
I also don't get the occasional unplugged cable inside the instrument rack causing various hard to diagnose issues (that have to be fixed in the dark corner of a bar with a flashlight under the gun trying feverishly to get the system ready for an on-time sound check).
Ahhhh.... the good ole days ;)
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Had wheels on my MixWiz rig, but I still had to lift up and down stairs. The box was still as big as any 15" 3 way speaker..... and as you mention, the 100' reel snake wasn't light either.
Another advantage of digital mixing in general is that I find my starting point for the mix is always very good since no knobs get moved about.
I also don't get the occasional unplugged cable inside the instrument rack causing various hard to diagnose issues (that have to be fixed in the dark corner of a bar with a flashlight under the gun trying feverishly to get the system ready for an on-time sound check).
Ahhhh.... the good ole days ;)
The only mixer I ever bought for myself was an original 01V, so I've never been much into outboard, but at this point, I can't even be bothered to run a cat5 cable to a digital surface if I don't have to
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IOW, the Behringer/Midas version of a PreSonus Cs18ai. I think they'd say, the current X32/M32 line is inexpensive to the point that they wouldn't save you a lot of money if the preamps and mic inputs were stripped out to create a "control surface only" module.
http://www.presonus.com/products/studiolive-cs18ai (http://www.presonus.com/products/studiolive-cs18ai)
I don't want them to gut it, I want them to enhance the firmware so the x32 has the option of just being a control surface and sends the instructions out through the ethernet port. The X32 rack on the other end would receive these instructions the same as if they came from a PC, iPad, or whatever.
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As far as rack mixers go, I see more going in that direction, and I really hope that more players get into the physical surface controlling said rack units. A&H iLive has it, and does it quite well. ALL of the processing is in the rack, and the mixer is just a dummy controller. disconnect the mixer, and sound still passes. It's what others have with tablet control, but with a physical surface involved. I'm surprised that isn't a more common approach.
This is what I do with my Presonus RM32AI/CS18AI combination. When mixing other bands I opt for my iPad to control the rack mount mixer on stage. When in playing with my band the physical controls are easier to use during a gig while I'm playing. I don't want an iPad attached to my mic stand. The CS18AI is handy as heck for this purpose.
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This is what I do with my Presonus RM32AI/CS18AI combination. When mixing other bands I opt for my iPad to control the rack mount mixer on stage. When in playing with my band the physical controls are easier to use during a gig while I'm playing. I don't want an iPad attached to my mic stand. The CS18AI is handy as heck for this purpose.
This ^
I don't want them to gut it, I want them to enhance the firmware so the x32 has the option of just being a control surface and sends the instructions out through the ethernet port. The X32 rack on the other end would receive these instructions the same as if they came from a PC, iPad, or whatever.
And this ^
I will NEVER and I repeat NEVER like running sound from a touch screen device. I want physical faders that I can put my hands on and watch the stage without having to look down to make sure I'm moving the right fader, there's too much looking down already with the infinite amount of DSP to play with.
I love the idea of a rack mixer that has a physical surface that can automatically switch processing; redundancy!
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Hey Nathan,
I hear you, but ....
For small to medium clubs, there is rarely a dedicated FOH position. In the past, most people just put the mixer on the side of the stage. You just end up running out front, running to the mixer, tweaking, running out front, rinse, repeat ....
Compared to that work flow, the tablet at a table with a beer sure seems like a pretty good deal ;)
I can't even give my 100' reel snake away. It is still gathering dust in my basement storage :(
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When I started building my own "lounge level" rig (my work is mostly cover bands and up-and-coming original bands, no theatre or talking heads stuff for the most part), I bought into the DL1608 because it was the cost of an analog snake, and I got to dump the Mackie VLZ analog I'd been using in my band rehearsal room. Sold all my TC and DBX racks, and LOVED being able to walk the room and mix from wherever I wanted. Everything is at my fingertips; I don't miss crouching below the mixer to adjust a compressor and then standing up to listen.
After about 20 gigs, I realized that having the preamps on the other end of the room was annoying, and although I got quite good with the iPad, I still couldn't manage 16channel 6 monitor shows very fluidly. Plus I was running out of channels constantly. Flipping through screens on the tablet to see or access what I want feels absolutely blind, and that darn tap tempo menu that flies out so you can adjust it, just happens to land right over the permanent home of the MUTE button for the main mix, so when it disappears again you do NOT want to be tapping there. Nothing more embarrassing than muting everything (more than once) by accident because your 80's cover band was playing another Journey tune.
Coming from an analog world at the company I used to work for (Soundcraft K2/Midas Venice/A&H GL and MixWiz) I missed the tactile feeling of a fader under my hand or a dedicated encoder that's always in the same spot. Swiping and tapping a tablet with sweaty fingers trying to get to where you need to be (quickly) takes practice and is no doubt cumbersome at times.
At outdoor events I found myself stationary under a tent most of the time so the sun didn't make my iPad unreadable..... then let's talk about iPad battery life for a moment. If that's your only control surface, you'd better have two, and a portable charger for long events. Oh and if your venue happens to have a busy WiFi environment, you might experience some surprises like I did. Say, bringing up an acoustic guitar fader in the monitor via the iPad, and not realizing it has disconnected itself momentarily, but when it reconnects moments later, my finger is a few inches higher on the fader and suddenly there is screaming feedback.... it's a great way to make an impression :(
So I started shopping.....didn't want an X32, I've mixed on a number of them and every one had at least one physical item (input jack, encoder, etc) broken, which didn't make me feel very good about build quality. I have a friend who runs his X32 on the side of the stage for monitors and as a snake, and mixes FOH exclusively from his tablet which certainly packs a lot of punch in setup for the money but I just can't get behind the B name for spending my own money.
I thought about the Midas M32, Pro1 or Soundcraft Si series, but then I found the A&H GLD series and fell in love with the features and flexibility of setup. Just before pulling the trigger I found a second-hand iLive rig for what a GLD80/AR2416 would have set me back new, and am now in paradise. Thanks Ted! I can roll my iDR32 rack into the venue for small gigs, patch in some powered speakers and be mixing with double the I/O of the Mackie in basically the same footprint (in fact less since I can stack things on top of it). Throw the rack in one stage corner with it's router, and run three 8-channel sub-snakes to the other three corners, and I now have 8 inputs in each corner, or 7 plus a DMX out for a very clean stage.
For bigger events I haul in my amp rack and the larger surface. There are certain things you need a laptop or surface for on the iLive platform that you can't do from the iPad, but in the package I got both an R72 and a T112 surface, so it's scalable depending on the event, and so far I've always brought the R72 at a minimum (because let's not forget why I wanted faders in the first place). Both surfaces have excellent visual feedback including meters for the layer you're on. I don't find the GUI to be challenging in any way, but after years of guitar FX processor menus on dark stages I guess I'm easy to please.
One cat5 snake plus power and I'm ready to go at FOH. I can have one hand on a vocal fader, the other tapping in a tempo or adjusting FX through the touchscreen, and still have one-knob-per-function encoders to grab on the fly (with the t112 anyway). I can still use the iPad to dial in quick monitors standing next to the talent and hearing what they hear, or if the surface isn't in an ideal mixing position I can walk the room and make adjustments to FOH. The iPad app for the iLive has the ability to display faders AND parametric EQ at the same time..... what a breathe of fresh air!
I don't think I need to mention this, but the sound quality between these two isn't comparable. Obviously they are in separate leagues, but WOW the iLive sounds incredible. Reminds me of the first day I mixed on the Midas Venice after years on an A&H GL series. One day IF I ever hire a helper and need a second mixer to grow my business, I'd probably go to the D-Live and put the T112/iDR on monitor duty, but for what I'm doing right now I'm happy as a clam. Oh, and my clients happily pay for the difference, and my mixes are better (which helps me rationalize my GAS I suppose).
To bring this back to the point, I could see the tablet-only thing being OK for small input channel counts or where you are only running a few mixes, but from my experiences they are no replacement for a desk for my needs.
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When I hear the term "rack mountable" it brings back some fond memories...
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@Jeremy Young,
Quite an upgrade from a DL1608 to an iLive ;)
The GLD is also a huge step up from the entry level Mackie.
I would like to say that I have never had a single fader problem with my X32 Rack ;)
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@Jeremy Young,
Quite an upgrade from a DL1608 to an iLive ;)
The GLD is also a huge step up from the entry level Mackie.
I would like to say that I have never had a single fader problem with my X32 Rack ;)
Well you know what they say around these parts: Buy Once Cry Once. Happy owner here.
Side question, is there such a thing as a non-entry level Mackie? ;)
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I have a friend who runs his X32 on the side of the stage for monitors and as a snake, and mixes FOH exclusively from his tablet ...
I like to put the desk in FOH position for soundcheck only, and roll it back beside the stage, and mix from the ipad. Owners seem to like that, but band members too. Easy for soundcheck, and easy to communicate during performance for, let's say monitor adjustments. Easy for me, because i don't have to worry about the desk suffering from separation anxiety and getting splashed. Easy for cable management too. Saves a lot of time. But still i want (need) faders and knobs for soundcheck.
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So I started shopping.....didn't want an X32, I've mixed on a number of them and every one had at least one physical item (input jack, encoder, etc) broken, which didn't make me feel very good about build quality. I have a friend who runs his X32 on the side of the stage for monitors and as a snake, and mixes FOH exclusively from his tablet which certainly packs a lot of punch in setup for the money but I just can't get behind the B name for spending my own money.
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It's fine you don't like the brand but I find this really hard to believe. We have four x32 racks and we do 6-10 gigs a week for the last almost three years without a single issue. We beat the shit out of them too and they just keep on working.
There are so many of these things out there and I have not seen a single post from the user base of broken inputs. The jacks are very high quality and clearly the build of the whole box is awesome.
The iLive is a dying platform compared to the x32. It's 10 years old the processing bower and application maturity can't compare to the x32.
The Dlive is a whole different story.
I am glad that you are happy with your rig and it works so well for you but you don't have to make statements like this that run completely opposite of a huge body of operational experience.
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Scott, I didn't mean to offend on the X32 comment. I'm in a geographically isolated area and that's taken from a rather small sampling. What I read on these forums backs up your sentiments on its reliability, and I shouldn't be speaking ill to that.
I had other parts to that paragraph but I scrapped some due to the whole post getting long in the tooth; I should have edited better. I lurk here daily but don't post often; I wouldn't say I have anywhere near the experience of the vast majority of those who contribute here (yourself included), so take my comments for what they are. Those owners (of the aforementioned roughly-handled X32's) are still happily making a good living keeping their boards out working 7-days a week on a multi-person crew. If someone tripped on a cable and broke a locking XLR input jack, I doubt the owner would come to a public forum and complain about the outcome. Unreported damage can still happen, so let's not go so far as to say that it's untrue, but it really wasn't relevant to my post so I can edit it out if you desire.
The DL1608 was one of my first purchases in building this rig. Before that I was an A2 with a reputable sound tech with touring experience in the analog heydays of "bands you've heard of". He left us suddenly, and I was out of a job and a rig. If he only knew what I was "trusting to a computer" on a gig haha. Our split snake trunk was the size of a fridge. I'm trying to build my rig back to the event sizes we used to handle, no larger, but with lighter, more efficient equipment. In the meantime I do the occasional tech-only work for other small operators in town.
I've made a lot of good mixes on X32's, physically as well as iPad only. It would have satisfied my immediate needs of the remote preamp/better app/more inputs shortcomings that I was struggling with on the DL1608. [size=78%]But there were parts about the operation and workflow that I found to my personal dislike. This purchase set me back more than a new X32 in a road case with casters and a remote ethernet stage box would have cost me, and I'm ok with that. The mixing experience is the whole reason I drag these darn speakers and amp racks around in the first place.[/size]
As for the iLive, the platform may be 10 years old but not all of the hardware is. I expect Allen & Heath will still provide replacement parts for enough years for my needs. As a value purchase now that it has been superseded by the (shiny, new!) dLive, larger operators with deeper pockets than I may be making the switch which makes it an opportunity for folks in my particular situation. I believe the QU and GLD series both boast the "iLive effects engine" in their current marketing. The T-112 is a serious mixing machine, I don't even need to touch the (generously sized) screen during the mixing portion of most events, it's very analog-esque. It's also very flexible and customizable, which plays well for me since I'm the only one operating it. I mix 99% of the events I provide equipment for, and my rig is compact to suit my minimal man power (just me). The purchase was based suited to my particular tastes and cashflow, not any form of rider friendliness, familiarity to other techs, or promise of more features than what it currently has to offer.
Had I gone the GLD-112 route, it would have been a tradeoff of perfectly useful encoders for a "handy place to leave a tablet" that I don't need, and there's no way to use it without the Stagerack, and the limited onboard I/O at the surface means the opposite is also true. The iLive format is pretty slick, and when I don't have the space to mix on the T-112, the R72 still gives me buttons, encoders, real faders, and some great touchscreen real estate for it's size.
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Scott, I didn't mean to offend on the X32 comment. I'm in a geographically isolated area and that's taken from a rather small sampling. What I read on these forums backs up your sentiments on its reliability, and I shouldn't be speaking ill to that.
I had other parts to that paragraph but I scrapped some due to the whole post getting long in the tooth; I should have edited better. I lurk here daily but don't post often; I wouldn't say I have anywhere near the experience of the vast majority of those who contribute here (yourself included), so take my comments for what they are. Those owners (of the aforementioned roughly-handled X32's) are still happily making a good living keeping their boards out working 7-days a week on a multi-person crew. If someone tripped on a cable and broke a locking XLR input jack, I doubt the owner would come to a public forum and complain about the outcome. Unreported damage can still happen, so let's not go so far as to say that it's untrue, but it really wasn't relevant to my post so I can edit it out if you desire.
The DL1608 was one of my first purchases in building this rig. Before that I was an A2 with a reputable sound tech with touring experience in the analog heydays of "bands you've heard of". He left us suddenly, and I was out of a job and a rig. If he only knew what I was "trusting to a computer" on a gig haha. Our split snake trunk was the size of a fridge. I'm trying to build my rig back to the event sizes we used to handle, no larger, but with lighter, more efficient equipment. In the meantime I do the occasional tech-only work for other small operators in town.
I've made a lot of good mixes on X32's, physically as well as iPad only. It would have satisfied my immediate needs of the remote preamp/better app/more inputs shortcomings that I was struggling with on the DL1608. [size=78%]But there were parts about the operation and workflow that I found to my personal dislike. This purchase set me back more than a new X32 in a road case with casters and a remote ethernet stage box would have cost me, and I'm ok with that. The mixing experience is the whole reason I drag these darn speakers and amp racks around in the first place.[/size]
As for the iLive, the platform may be 10 years old but not all of the hardware is. I expect Allen & Heath will still provide replacement parts for enough years for my needs. As a value purchase now that it has been superseded by the (shiny, new!) dLive, larger operators with deeper pockets than I may be making the switch which makes it an opportunity for folks in my particular situation. I believe the QU and GLD series both boast the "iLive effects engine" in their current marketing. The T-112 is a serious mixing machine, I don't even need to touch the (generously sized) screen during the mixing portion of most events, it's very analog-esque. It's also very flexible and customizable, which plays well for me since I'm the only one operating it. I mix 99% of the events I provide equipment for, and my rig is compact to suit my minimal man power (just me). The purchase was based suited to my particular tastes and cashflow, not any form of rider friendliness, familiarity to other techs, or promise of more features than what it currently has to offer.
Had I gone the GLD-112 route, it would have been a tradeoff of perfectly useful encoders for a "handy place to leave a tablet" that I don't need, and there's no way to use it without the Stagerack, and the limited onboard I/O at the surface means the opposite is also true. The iLive format is pretty slick, and when I don't have the space to mix on the T-112, the R72 still gives me buttons, encoders, real faders, and some great touchscreen real estate for it's size.
I wasn't offended, this isn't an emotional situation. Just wanted to make sure that operational experience is framed properly so the 1000's of people that read these posts without commenting have a picture.
I too was attracted by the low pricing on the iLive and Rob Spence, a very experience Allen and Heath dealer set me straight that you can't go from an x32 to a iLive without the glaring limitations of the old platform rearing their head. It's not that there is not new hardware, the platform and software don't have the features that are demanded in the market.
I do find it interesting, that the value leader, the x32, by far has the best software though some could argue Mackie's master fader app is as good. The remote control of the big boy consoles is clearly an afterthought and as such has been quite a disappointment.
The dLive has it all, incredibly modern interface, great remote app. Ability to run stage box without the control surface. It hits on all the points.
The C series pricing is great also.
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The remote control of the big boy consoles is clearly an afterthought and as such has been quite a disappointment.
Remote control of big-boy consoles is less of an issue because in most of the situations they are used in, there is no hissy fit about FOH taking a 4-top table space (bar gig) or "does that ugly thing have to go THERE?" like in a wedding reception. I'm sure any A-list FOH person would give a polite "fuck you" if a PM suggested he/she mix a national-level acct on a remote device exclusively.
I use the VNC viewer with our AVID Venue consoles to do the same things I use the M/X32 Mixing Station for - to set fill levels, tweak zone EQ, etc. I don't use it to mix the show.
The only gigs I use a tablet 100% are EDM events where I want to spend time in the audience and I'm not worried about hitting a FX cue or boosting/taming a guitar solo...
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......set me straight that you can't go from an x32 to a iLive without the glaring limitations of the old platform rearing their head. It's not that there is not new hardware, the platform and software don't have the features that are demanded in the market.
Hi Scott,
I'm sort of intrigued by this. I've spent hundreds of hours behind an iLive system, and many with the X/M32. I don't have a horse in that race anymore, but I'd absolutely have the opposite view, that whilst the iLive platform has reached the end of it's development (I suspect the X32 may well have done too with the last major software update but who knows), it is a more powerful and flexible system. Whilst I would agree that the iPad app is slightly behind the competition and doesn't offer complete control, the desktop editor I always found excellent. Along with the iDR control panels that could be added it's ability to have custom MIDI maps in the editor enabled huge flexibility in creating workflows and installed systems.
Just interested really what you think the glaring limitations are as I MAY be in the market for a lower end desk soon, and a used iLive would fit the bill reasonably, especially as there are a fair few available with people upgrading to dLives. The X32 may also fit, but I'd prefer to go slightly upmarket from either option funding allowing.
FWIW I've seen a few broken X32s (well damaged is probably a better word) but given the environments that lower end kit finds its way into thats no surprise.
Richard
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Hi Scott,
I'm sort of intrigued by this. I've spent hundreds of hours behind an iLive system, and many with the X/M32. I don't have a horse in that race anymore, but I'd absolutely have the opposite view, that whilst the iLive platform has reached the end of it's development (I suspect the X32 may well have done too with the last major software update but who knows), it is a more powerful and flexible system. Whilst I would agree that the iPad app is slightly behind the competition and doesn't offer complete control, the desktop editor I always found excellent. Along with the iDR control panels that could be added it's ability to have custom MIDI maps in the editor enabled huge flexibility in creating workflows and installed systems.
Just interested really what you think the glaring limitations are as I MAY be in the market for a lower end desk soon, and a used iLive would fit the bill reasonably, especially as there are a fair few available with people upgrading to dLives. The X32 may also fit, but I'd prefer to go slightly upmarket from either option funding allowing.
FWIW I've seen a few broken X32s (well damaged is probably a better word) but given the environments that lower end kit finds its way into thats no surprise.
Richard
+1
My experience mirrors yours. I had a T112/idr48 and R72/idr32 for many gigs, have downsized my co to X32 system, and can only say that the prior statement was fatuous at best.
-Tim T
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+1
My experience mirrors yours. I had a T112/idr48 and R72/idr32 for many gigs, have downsized my co to X32 system, and can only say that the prior statement was fatuous at best.
-Tim T
Fatuous, at least you used a word I had to look up. Anytime someone can insult me with a word I don't know it has to be a decent comment.
We all speak from our own perspectives. Mine was driven by speaking completely of the live sound H.O.W. space, the only place I have used both an iLive 80 and an SC-48. MIDI automation and complex patching are not part of my usual workflow.
I found the screen on the 80 disorganized and hard to scan. Hard to read too. The effects seemed less intuitive to deploy than the x/m32 and not as powerful and varied.
In contrast, I walked up to an SC-48 and was working as easily as the x-32. It was an easy board to get around.
Then someone I trust, Rob Spence, further underscored my expereince with his own. I incorporated his opinion in to mind. That certainly makes it hearsay but this is a forum not a court of law.
So the core of my statement is that I would not spend money on an iLive today. I stand by that.
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Fair enough, everyone's workflow is different, as is their implementation and application. That's what makes mixers so personal I think.
I find your statement incredibly bold, but then again I have owners' bias that you have to sift through as well. ;)
I've always thought of Behringer as a feature-heavy brand for better or worse, and there's no questioning that the X32 is a serious platform that has made an impact in our industry.
That said, comparing it's features to the iLive and putting it on top is laughable (to me), based SOLELY ON MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES MIXING ON BOTH, IN DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENTS BUT FOR THE SAME ACTS.
The screen on the iLive is a touchscreen, which the X32 is not. It's also quite a bit larger on the T-series surfaces (8.5" diagonally on my R72, don't have an X32 handy to measure). When you say "hard to read" was it the font, the brightness, the layout, the colours.....? How was the dimmer set? Mine is great. But so is my eyesight. Both desks had lamps when I used them, and my T-112 had the screen updated by the previous owner with one that reportedly works better in direct sunlight. Having never used it prior to that, I can't comment on the difference it made, but the screen is not an issue for me. I've yet to use the R72 outdoors, but the angle is easier for me to see than the flat X32.
The T-112 offers less button-pushing to get your encoders to do what you want versus the X32, which was VERY (I'll say it again) VERY important to me, being brought up on analog with a boss who only trusted analog. There are also more LED's for each channel for quick channel metering (11 plus peak, versus 5). Again, coming from analog and feeling "lost" on my DL1608 this is comforting to me.
If I want to adjust the ratio on a compressor on the X32, can you show me where that encoder is? Whats with manufacturer's only giving us a threshold encoder? How many button presses does it take to get there? How about sends on faders? I'm a button press ahead there too. Unless I've been wasting a step, I have to hit "select" on the X32 mix bus I want, and then hit "sends on faders". On the iLive I simply hit the "mix" button on the mix I want. Or I hit mix on the channel, and the mix faders become your send levels for that channel. How about channel EQ? The T-112 has a soundcraft-esque single encoder per function, so I don't have to hit more buttons to get to the high-mids before I can "spin the wheel of misfortune".
How's the de-esser sound on the channel strips of the X32? oh wait, it's not there. ;) I have one on every input (that's 64 DSP channels, not 40, and I have 32 buses, not 20). I can also re-arrange and assign inputs/outputs/faders more freely, and because I have more DSP than physical inputs, I can copy inputs to multiple strips for different processing (monitors from FOH, for example, which is my bread and butter).
Sorry this is a total topic swerve, comparing these is just not practical, so I'll stop.
Rob knows his stuff, (and is a GLD/LS9 user if I recall correctly), and I'm still new to the iLive platform, so for the sake of those thousands of people reading without posting (like me usually), GO OUT AND TRY ONE AND STOP READING THIS! haha. Read the manuals, download the apps and test them in demo mode, watch the youtube videos, and get a demo if you can so you can actually put your hands on it and try it.
When I did my research before buying, I found three things about the iLive I wasn't thrilled about:
1) lack of onboard recording facilities, which is pretty standard these days (which I've remedied with a Dante card, opening up further opportunities). It also transfers 64 channels over Dante, unlike the X32 expansion cards which are limited to 32 channels.
2) iPad app requires swiping left to right to access more channels (similar to my DL1608) unlike the "group of 8 selection" based method employed on the X32 and Yamaha TF series (and probably more). This was remedied when I discovered the two customizable fader layers, so I can put 16 of my most used faders on the screen at once and suddenly swiping wasn't a problem. And since I'm only using the app for adjustments while walking the room and temporarily away from the console, 16 is plenty considering it can include any combination of VCA's, FX returns, etc. No more swiping for me. It wasn't so much the swiping, but the stopping at the right channel that irked me. I was always afraid I'd accidentally hit a mute button or hard-pan something.
3) What started as a negative went positive. I thought initially that the faders were too short on the app for high resolution adjustments (A&H split the screen lengthwise so you can adjust channel parameters up top and still adjust faders down below, or just do two rows of faders). However, a few youtube videos later I found the sneaky "move your finger to the side and gain more resolution" feature which actually gives me more control than the Mackie DL series. Pretty cool and intuitive once you know it's there.
Are rack mountable mixers the future or a trend? Tune in next week!
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Fair enough, everyone's workflow is different, as is their implementation and application. That's what makes mixers so personal I think.
I find your statement incredibly bold, but then again I have owners' bias that you have to sift through as well. ;)
I've always thought of Behringer as a feature-heavy brand for better or worse, and there's no questioning that the X32 is a serious platform that has made an impact in our industry.
That said, comparing it's features to the iLive and putting it on top is laughable (to me), based SOLELY ON MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES MIXING ON BOTH, IN DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENTS BUT FOR THE SAME ACTS.
The screen on the iLive is a touchscreen, which the X32 is not. It's also quite a bit larger on the T-series surfaces (8.5" diagonally on my R72, don't have an X32 handy to measure). When you say "hard to read" was it the font, the brightness, the layout, the colours.....? How was the dimmer set? Mine is great. But so is my eyesight. Both desks had lamps when I used them, and my T-112 had the screen updated by the previous owner with one that reportedly works better in direct sunlight. Having never used it prior to that, I can't comment on the difference it made, but the screen is not an issue for me. I've yet to use the R72 outdoors, but the angle is easier for me to see than the flat X32.
The T-112 offers less button-pushing to get your encoders to do what you want versus the X32, which was VERY (I'll say it again) VERY important to me, being brought up on analog with a boss who only trusted analog. There are also more LED's for each channel for quick channel metering (11 plus peak, versus 5). Again, coming from analog and feeling "lost" on my DL1608 this is comforting to me.
If I want to adjust the ratio on a compressor on the X32, can you show me where that encoder is? Whats with manufacturer's only giving us a threshold encoder? How many button presses does it take to get there? How about sends on faders? I'm a button press ahead there too. Unless I've been wasting a step, I have to hit "select" on the X32 mix bus I want, and then hit "sends on faders". On the iLive I simply hit the "mix" button on the mix I want. Or I hit mix on the channel, and the mix faders become your send levels for that channel. How about channel EQ? The T-112 has a soundcraft-esque single encoder per function, so I don't have to hit more buttons to get to the high-mids before I can "spin the wheel of misfortune".
How's the de-esser sound on the channel strips of the X32? oh wait, it's not there. ;) I have one on every input (that's 64 DSP channels, not 40, and I have 32 buses, not 20). I can also re-arrange and assign inputs/outputs/faders more freely, and because I have more DSP than physical inputs, I can copy inputs to multiple strips for different processing (monitors from FOH, for example, which is my bread and butter).
Sorry this is a total topic swerve, comparing these is just not practical, so I'll stop.
Rob knows his stuff, (and is a GLD/LS9 user if I recall correctly), and I'm still new to the iLive platform, so for the sake of those thousands of people reading without posting (like me usually), GO OUT AND TRY ONE AND STOP READING THIS! haha. Read the manuals, download the apps and test them in demo mode, watch the youtube videos, and get a demo if you can so you can actually put your hands on it and try it.
When I did my research before buying, I found three things about the iLive I wasn't thrilled about:
1) lack of onboard recording facilities, which is pretty standard these days (which I've remedied with a Dante card, opening up further opportunities). It also transfers 64 channels over Dante, unlike the X32 expansion cards which are limited to 32 channels.
2) iPad app requires swiping left to right to access more channels (similar to my DL1608) unlike the "group of 8 selection" based method employed on the X32 and Yamaha TF series (and probably more). This was remedied when I discovered the two customizable fader layers, so I can put 16 of my most used faders on the screen at once and suddenly swiping wasn't a problem. And since I'm only using the app for adjustments while walking the room and temporarily away from the console, 16 is plenty considering it can include any combination of VCA's, FX returns, etc. No more swiping for me. It wasn't so much the swiping, but the stopping at the right channel that irked me. I was always afraid I'd accidentally hit a mute button or hard-pan something.
3) What started as a negative went positive. I thought initially that the faders were too short on the app for high resolution adjustments (A&H split the screen lengthwise so you can adjust channel parameters up top and still adjust faders down below, or just do two rows of faders). However, a few youtube videos later I found the sneaky "move your finger to the side and gain more resolution" feature which actually gives me more control than the Mackie DL series. Pretty cool and intuitive once you know it's there.
Are rack mountable mixers the future or a trend? Tune in next week!
I am sure everything you said is true. My eye sight is the usual for a mid 50's guy, I need 1.5 readers to see just about anything.
I am very much used to the sends on fader workflow so that doesn't bother me. The EQ is exactly as you stated, selecting the band is cumbersome. I always use the tablet (running Android not Apple) for those adjustments and that is my touch screen interface. In fact I could not imagine using an x32 without a tablet as a side car adjunct.
Back to the screen. Everything you said and more. The color palette is bland, the screen layout doesn't pop. The display looks washed out. Just plain looks like something written almost 10 years ago before Google spent billions on material design. They sure got it right with the Dlive and I can't wait to get some real stick time on one.
As far as the compressor, same deal. I like using the Android App (Granted it's 3rd part too) with the compression gain histogram. However that being said when you hit view on the compressor the rotary encoders below the screen are available to you.
Let me approach this a different way, as the thread is about rack mounted mixers and it has veered into an iLive thread. Would you buy a used iLive today or spend the cash on something else?
BTW, sure I am making bold statements. You are an articulate debater. I choose a side in this debate and am going to defend it to the end. We both learn quite a bit with the adversarial process.
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I think we all can agree that rack mixers have their place, as do control surfaces. It all depends on the user(s) and the intended usage. There is no right or wrong.
5-10 years ago it just wasn't possible. Now it is, and affordable. I do think that splitting the input, processing and control surface is the way to go. Your choice to use the tablet or the surface.
Do i think it is smart to buy a 8-10 year old digital system at this moment in time? Hmmm...
The digital revolution has not settled yet. Dropping 8-10k on such a system is really writing that money off in 3 years or so. If you buy a new system for 20-25k, and sell it after 3 years you get halve of that back, but don't have to worry about the drawbacks of the older system, and will probably get you business opportunities.
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Have you guys spotted the Behringer Xtouch?
Looks like a nice little portable surface that can control desks over wired network. Neat.
Almost tempting to get an X32 rack + one of those.
Chris
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I'm confused. When you hit the view button for the compressor all the 1st layer controls come up on encoders beneath the functions on the screen....including ratio.
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I'm confused. When you hit the view button for the compressor all the 1st layer controls come up on encoders beneath the functions on the screen....including ratio.
No, I'M consfused. Who are you replying to, John?
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FYIW, you can use the assign encoders on the X32 to adjust any part of the compressor you desire for the selected channel.
The use of "Sends on Fader" makes send mix adjustments quite simple .... at least to me.
Like Scott H said, I find I much prefer the graphical multi-touch approach for shaping channel eq and setting compressor variables.
If you come from an analog point of view, most of the more advanced modern digital mixers will require some flight time and tutorials to get the most out of them.
The X32 rack mixer has really bitten off quite a bit of functionality compared to the direct comptetition IMO. This necessarily makes it a bit harder to get a handle on.
Some digital rack mixers have moved toward the "easier to use" side of the spectrum. They don't have near the routing and other capabilities, but nearly anyone can get them setup correctly. Unfortunately, if you want to do something fancy on them (like drive a set of delayed speakers, or a video feed separate from the FOH sound as a couple of examples), they simply don't have the capabilities to do it.
I think that less capable rack mount mixers are going to greatly increase in popularity, and that more complex ones (like the X32 Rack) will become less popular.
Most people that do events that need the higher complexity, will likely want a physical interface. Most people that do events that DON'T need the higher complexity will want the simplicity of setup.
Either way, rack mixers are here to stay (thank God ;) ).
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No, I'M consfused. Who are you replying to, John?
Jeremy's question..
"If I want to adjust the ratio on a compressor on the X32, can you show me where that encoder is? Whats with manufacturer's only giving us a threshold encoder?"
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FYIW, you can use the assign encoders on the X32 to adjust any part of the compressor you desire for the selected channel.
The use of "Sends on Fader" makes send mix adjustments quite simple .... at least to me.
Like Scott H said, I find I much prefer the graphical multi-touch approach for shaping channel eq and setting compressor variables.
If you come from an analog point of view, most of the more advanced modern digital mixers will require some flight time and tutorials to get the most out of them.
The X32 rack mixer has really bitten off quite a bit of functionality compared to the direct comptetition IMO. This necessarily makes it a bit harder to get a handle on.
Some digital rack mixers have moved toward the "easier to use" side of the spectrum. They don't have near the routing and other capabilities, but nearly anyone can get them setup correctly. Unfortunately, if you want to do something fancy on them (like drive a set of delayed speakers, or a video feed separate from the FOH sound as a couple of examples), they simply don't have the capabilities to do it.
I think that less capable rack mount mixers are going to greatly increase in popularity, and that more complex ones (like the X32 Rack) will become less popular.
Most people that do events that need the higher complexity, will likely want a physical interface. Most people that do events that DON'T need the higher complexity will want the simplicity of setup.
Either way, rack mixers are here to stay (thank God ;) ).
Exactly! I did a 3 day Dance Flurry this past weekend with all kinds of different instruments, and tons of last minute changes for input sources, monitors and matrix setups.
Lots of really eccentric folks...and EVERYTHING I needed to do was possible. I really like the X32 rack.
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Exactly! I did a 3 day Dance Flurry this past weekend with all kinds of different instruments, and tons of last minute changes for input sources, monitors and matrix setups.
Lots of really eccentric folks...and EVERYTHING I needed to do was possible. I really like the X32 rack.
We built our business around the device. It's not optimum for the larger shows but in a pinch I have used the s16 with it and mixed some fairly large shows from a couple of tablets and a computer.
We have four X32r's, Two XR18's and an XR12, X32C and Full Size X32 and an M32 in rental inventory. I have lost count of the installs.
The nice thing about the x32 is it gives a clear transition for the techs to the Compact, the full size and now the M32. For now that portfolio is working well for us.
I have tried the Touchmix and the DL1608 and prefer the X32. I really want to try the Mackie Axis system. It may be the next step with it's remote control surface. The surface looks like it doesn't have enough knobs. I just need to play with one.
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I'm confused. When you hit the view button for the compressor all the 1st layer controls come up on encoders beneath the functions on the screen....including ratio.
For clarification: My point was not that the ratio control was not a part of the dsp. It was that it takes an extra step to access it, as you mentioned, pressing the view button. Whereas the other surface in question has a dedicated encoder for that. In the heat of the moment, the less buttons I have to press to access something, the happier I am.
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For clarification: My point was not that the ratio control was not a part of the dsp. It was that it takes an extra step to access it, as you mentioned, pressing the view button. Whereas the other surface in question has a dedicated encoder for that. In the heat of the moment, the less buttons I have to press to access something, the happier I am.
It's no different on most any compact digital mixer, even my Yamaha 01v96. And frankly I can't imagine a "heat of the moment" issue where not having a grab-able knob for ratio is a big deal. You still have to select a channel, and if you were in the dynamics view mode already, that's all you'd need to do.
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I am sure everything you said is true. My eye sight is the usual for a mid 50's guy, I need 1.5 readers to see just about anything.
I am very much used to the sends on fader workflow so that doesn't bother me. The EQ is exactly as you stated, selecting the band is cumbersome. I always use the tablet (running Android not Apple) for those adjustments and that is my touch screen interface. In fact I could not imagine using an x32 without a tablet as a side car adjunct.
Back to the screen. Everything you said and more. The color palette is bland, the screen layout doesn't pop. The display looks washed out. Just plain looks like something written almost 10 years ago before Google spent billions on material design. They sure got it right with the Dlive and I can't wait to get some real stick time on one.
As far as the compressor, same deal. I like using the Android App (Granted it's 3rd part too) with the compression gain histogram. However that being said when you hit view on the compressor the rotary encoders below the screen are available to you.
Let me approach this a different way, as the thread is about rack mounted mixers and it has veered into an iLive thread. Would you buy a used iLive today or spend the cash on something else?
BTW, sure I am making bold statements. You are an articulate debater. I choose a side in this debate and am going to defend it to the end. We both learn quite a bit with the adversarial process.
But I didn't even use any words you had to look up! Lol. Thank you for the screen clarification and context. I can concede that the iLive GUI won't win a beauty contest.
Would I buy an iLive today? I think we know what I did and would do it again in the same position, but everyone's business/capital/clients/equipment turnover is different. For my current business, I simply don't do enough gigs in a year for a $40k investment in anything technological like a hot new digital mixer. Then again I buy my cars 5 years old after they've taken the largest depreciation. My clients are NOT demanding the best gear, they're buying the best results, from me, and I bring the tools I need to deliver that. something that sounded "world class" 10 years ago, I would argue, still does to my ears (provided it's still in good working condition). I'm the only one handling, operating and storing my gear, which generally keeps equipment operational longer, but per-use ROI slower since it's not out every day.
Another disclaimer, I read the manual start to back 6 times before putting my hands on the mixer. So your experiences walking up to it blind (that wasn't an eyesight joke) are very relevant and something I can't comment on. Heck, I don't even like plugging into an amp without knowing its gain, let alone something as complex as a mixer, but I'm a research junkie.
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It's no different on most any compact digital mixer, even my Yamaha 01v96. And frankly I can't imagine a "heat of the moment" issue where not having a grab-able knob for ratio is a big deal. You still have to select a channel, and if you were in the dynamics view mode already, that's all you'd need to do.
Honestly neither can I. Ratio was clearly a poor example but the original context of that comment was comparing two "full sized" surfaces. Not the x32 compact or x32 producer, but the largest surface currently available in that family. I get it, we need to remove knobs to make them smaller, but that wasn't what I was trying to express. It just seems like I find more surfaces these days with a neat spot to rest a tablet (looking at you Gld-112) than using that space for something not as easily replaced by table space. Gimme knobs!
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Honestly neither can I. Ratio was clearly a poor example but the original context of that comment was comparing two "full sized" surfaces. Not the x32 compact or x32 producer, but the largest surface currently available in that family. I get it, we need to remove knobs to make them smaller, but that wasn't what I was trying to express. It just seems like I find more surfaces these days with a neat spot to rest a tablet (looking at you Gld-112) than using that space for something not as easily replaced by table space. Gimme knobs!
The main thing is 'remove the knobs, they cost money.' John Roberts has brought this up before, from his time in Meridian, MS working for the sharpest pencil in the MI biz.
Behringer or Yamaha or whoever could add more buttons & rotary controls and maybe a bigger, higher res screen too, but those things cost money. Ultimately each product has to hit a price point within a given category. This is why you tend to see very similar products in a given price range; it's not so much copying a concept as it is 'this is how much of xyz you get for your dough-re-mi'.
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With the X32, I have found that there isn't much I can't setup in such a way that the work flow can be made quite simple for any given venue/act.
I think that the device is pretty complex though, and most people don't take the time to learn how to use the tools the ecosystem provides to do things with.
The complaint about the channel PEQ knobs is certainly valid. If you are used to using physical knobs for channel eq, the layout of the X32 is no where near as neat as something like the Soundcraft Expression. Personally, I have really grown attached to pinching my Q and raising and lowering the gain via touch while having a RTA in the background that I can tweak before and after the eq .... while standing on stage ringing out a monitor.... pretty darned cool.
Of course I am getting fatter since I don't get all that exercise running back and fourth to the mixer and the stage ;)
Using "Sends on Fader" from channel to busses, and then busses to channels ..... a little ray of sunshine. Its like a microwave oven man. Don't know how people ever mixed without this :)
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Have you guys spotted the Behringer Xtouch?
Looks like a nice little portable surface that can control desks over wired network. Neat.
Almost tempting to get an X32 rack + one of those.
Chris
I do most smaller gigs on a tablet. I've been using an X-Touch for about a month with both an X32 rack and an M32C. It's a game changer! I find a good seat with a nearby outlet, use a 5GHz wireless bridge to connect to the Wi-Fi network, and I've got tactile control of the mixer. I still have the iPad with me too. One thing that would make it so much better is if Behringer allowed my tablet to "follow" the selected channel on the surface.
I'll note that this is also a great hardwired backup to keep at the stage for when your network goes down or your tablet dies. I use static IP addresses for everything (Thanks, Bob Leonard!) so I can connect it through my router/switch or just connect it directly to the mixer.
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The main thing is 'remove the knobs, they cost money.' John Roberts has brought this up before, from his time in Meridian, MS working for the sharpest pencil in the MI biz.
Sometimes I think I was born too soon, or too late. The technology to finally deliver on the promise of class D amplification (smaller, lighter , cheaper) finally arrived too late for me to take advantage of it. :'( Another thing I have been seeing in my crystal ball (a little dusty these days) is not just eliminating knobs but eliminating the entire mixers with the computing power built into stage boxes or speaker boxes for smaller systems.
Apple just announced a AR (augmented reality) programming kit at their developers conference. So the next level for sound control can get hipper... I joke about "squeezing the performers heads" to increase compression, but interfaces can get more literal and perhaps more intuitive. To bring a performer up or down in a mix, just point to them on the screen and swipe up or down (left -right for pan). or not. 8)
Behringer or Yamaha or whoever could add more buttons & rotary controls and maybe a bigger, higher res screen too, but those things cost money. Ultimately each product has to hit a price point within a given category. This is why you tend to see very similar products in a given price range; it's not so much copying a concept as it is 'this is how much of xyz you get for your dough-re-mi'.
Not just the cost of controls but panel real estate that defines size of the package. The power of digital technology in combination with robust displays supports soft repurposing of controls so a small handful can manage tens of functions very cost effectively.
JR
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I do most smaller gigs on a tablet. I've been using an X-Touch for about a month with both an X32 rack and an M32C. It's a game changer! I find a good seat with a nearby outlet, use a 5GHz wireless bridge to connect to the Wi-Fi network, and I've got tactile control of the mixer. I still have the iPad with me too. One thing that would make it so much better is if Behringer allowed my tablet to "follow" the selected channel on the surface.
I'll note that this is also a great hardwired backup to keep at the stage for when your network goes down or your tablet dies. I use static IP addresses for everything (Thanks, Bob Leonard!) so I can connect it through my router/switch or just connect it directly to the mixer.
I am thinking of an X touch for my studio. How exactly do you get it to hook up wirelessly to an X 32?
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I am thinking of an X touch for my studio. How exactly do you get it to hook up wirelessly to an X 32?
John, I use a Ubiquiti bullet M5 as my wireless access point for connecting tablet/computer/etc to the mixer. I am also using a D-link WAP/switch combo unit (can't remember the model off hand) set up as a wireless bridge to join the wireless network. Then I connect the X-touch (and a laptop, sometimes) to the D-link unit and they're now on the same network.
You could use any wireless access point at the mixer though, and any WAP that can act as a wireless bridge at the X-Touch.
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I have the definitive answer to the original question. Opinions are nice, but....
The market will decide. Unless enough opinions affect the market, that is.