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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Kevin Maxwell on May 12, 2018, 11:25:07 AM
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Orchestra outdoors, add reverb? And CL5 question.
I am asking this question of people that have outdoor orchestral experience.
I have show coming up in a little less than a month. I did this show last year, it will have an orchestra, a band (as in the Brass type) a Jazz band and a choir. The orchestra and choir will do a number or 2 together but the band and jazz band will be by themselves. I am pretty sure I used a little touch of reverb on the choir last year. When doing rock bands outdoors with horn sections (like Chicago type bands) I always put reverb on the horns and I think it really helps, especially outdoors.
Since there is no natural reverb in this outdoor stage and space like there would be indoors, I am thinking of adding a little bit of reverb to the orchestra this year. Last year was crazy due to issues with the venue (but that is another story) so I didn’t have time to deal with the little subtleties. The system consists of d&b audiotechnik speakers and a Yamaha CL5.
I can find my way around the CL5 ok but I am not as proficient as I am with a bunch of other Digital consoles. One of the problems I had was the screen was washed out by the sunlight diffusing thru the white tent like structure. It isn’t a tent it is more like a speedboat roof and FOH mix is built into the hill a little bit. This year I am going to bring my own dark blue tarp to tie inside the ceiling of this roof.
Do you recommend any particular reverb and settings for a subtle pure reverb? By pure I mean one that sounds natural. I am a bit of a reverb snob.
BTW the audience loved the show and said it was much better than the year before. I wasn’t there the year before. I am just trying to make it even better for this year.
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Well obviously use a "concert hall" reverb preset if you're looking to make it sound more like indoors. :)
What I generally do is make sure I've got some reverb on the French horns, which face backwards and in proper hall are heard almost entirely by reflection off the back wall of the orchestra shell.
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Yamaha's REV-X reverbs are very good. The default library settings are not bad as starting points.
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Well obviously use a "concert hall" reverb preset if you're looking to make it sound more like indoors. :)
What I generally do is make sure I've got some reverb on the French horns, which face backwards and in proper hall are heard almost entirely by reflection off the back wall of the orchestra shell.
Outdoors I like a thinner hall and less level of early reflections.
A buddy of mine is a trumpet player - he pisses off the French horn players by playing their instrument without using the valves or a mouthpiece. :o
Your advice about those horns brought back a memory of a symphony gig we did years ago (when the SPX-90 was fairly new): 2 SPX-90, one for the whole orchestra and another for the French horns. IIRC the horn 'verb had a later initial delay and a little more early reflection level but was otherwise the same basic reverb. Now I wish I'd asked the mixerperson about it... he just asked me to edit the parameters for him and I did it.
Next time I mix an orchestra I'll experiment with this. Thanks for enabling the memory jog, Scott!
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I would add a bit of a medium hall reverb, using the Rev-X hall verb. Don't go overboard trying to recreate the sound of a concert hall. It's outdoors, everyone knows that. Just a little sweetening up of the high strings, woodwinds, high brass. I would keep the low strings and low brass and percussion out of the reverb.
Tim, your trumpet player friend wouldn't happen to be named Gray, would he?
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I usually listen to the strings a bit to see how much reverb they need. It all depends on the sound the section gets.
A few years ago we were doing a gig with an orchestra outdoors, and the conductor came out to hear what we were getting. He saw that there were a couple of effects units in the FOH rack, and asked if we were using reverb on the upper strings. We told him no, we were not. He asked us to add some as his strings were in need of some help, and could we put it through his monitor with the reverb. :-)
Woodwinds usually get a some, as do the horns. Trumpets might or might not, depending on their tone.
Doug
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Yes, go for it. Be careful not to over do it.
A short horror story about an outdoor gig with a sympony. One of my employees with a side recording business had purchased the first Lexicon digital reverb (a 200 I think). It was the first digital reverb I had ever used and was pretty amazing compared to anything analog, including big plate units. My sound co was hired to provide sound for a symphony orchestra at a new housing development opening in the middle of a field. We very carefull explained in our cover letter and in our contract that we needed 100 amps per leg 3 phase power to make this work. We arrived to find a 30 amp 240V outlet. We were told use it or go home without pay. With careful riding of the faders we actually made it through the event - almost! The orchestra's last number ended with a huge crescendo. Low voltage caused the digital reverb to output white noise - very loudly. Of course explaining that the problem was that adequate power had not been provided meant nothing. "We" had ruined their event. It was our last event ever for that orchestra. My Orban spring reverb would have worked in that "almost" per-digital age, but a $10,000.00 digital reverb lost a long time client.
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Orchestra outdoors, add reverb? And CL5 question.
I am asking this question of people that have outdoor orchestral experience.
I have show coming up in a little less than a month. I did this show last year, it will have an orchestra, a band (as in the Brass type) a Jazz band and a choir. The orchestra and choir will do a number or 2 together but the band and jazz band will be by themselves. I am pretty sure I used a little touch of reverb on the choir last year. When doing rock bands outdoors with horn sections (like Chicago type bands) I always put reverb on the horns and I think it really helps, especially outdoors.
Since there is no natural reverb in this outdoor stage and space like there would be indoors, I am thinking of adding a little bit of reverb to the orchestra this year. Last year was crazy due to issues with the venue (but that is another story) so I didn’t have time to deal with the little subtleties. The system consists of d&b audiotechnik speakers and a Yamaha CL5.
I can find my way around the CL5 ok but I am not as proficient as I am with a bunch of other Digital consoles. One of the problems I had was the screen was washed out by the sunlight diffusing thru the white tent like structure. It isn’t a tent it is more like a speedboat roof and FOH mix is built into the hill a little bit. This year I am going to bring my own dark blue tarp to tie inside the ceiling of this roof.
Do you recommend any particular reverb and settings for a subtle pure reverb? By pure I mean one that sounds natural. I am a bit of a reverb snob.
BTW the audience loved the show and said it was much better than the year before. I wasn’t there the year before. I am just trying to make it even better for this year.
I am a performing musician in a professional orchestra who also provides sound systems for local performances. I have found that rolling off the highs (to 10 o'clock or so) overall will warm up the sound (mic'd instruments) at outdoor events. Adding effects is "personal taste" dependent...too wet and it will sound processed....
Use your ears...
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Invite the conductor to your FOH (during rehearsal/sound check) and ask: "Does this (orch's mix) fit your "vision"? If not, what can I do to make it work for you....."
You will have a friend forever ....
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We arrived to find a 30 amp 240V outlet. We were told use it or go home without pay.
a $10,000.00 digital reverb lost a long time client.
In retrospect, you should probably have said "Thank You", loaded the trucks and went home! (The end-result would have been the same.)
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Invite the conductor to your FOH (during rehearsal/sound check) and ask: "Does this (orch's mix) fit your "vision"? If not, what can I do to make it work for you....."
You will have a friend forever ....
lOL...Really? Do you actually think that the conductor is going to spend any of his precious time running out to FOH to listen to the orchestra, while who conducts the rehearsal? Not going to happen, especially if they are a union orchestra and they are under tight rehearsal/break time limits.
Better to talk to the artistic director or executive/managing director who are the ones who probably write the checks and book the crew for next year's show anyway.
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lOL...Really? Do you actually think that the conductor is going to spend any of his precious time running out to FOH to listen to the orchestra, while who conducts the rehearsal? Not going to happen, especially if they are a union orchestra and they are under tight rehearsal/break time limits.
Better to talk to the artistic director or executive/managing director who are the ones who probably write the checks and book the crew for next year's show anyway.
This^^
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lOL...Really? Do you actually think that the conductor is going to spend any of his precious time running out to FOH to listen to the orchestra, while who conducts the rehearsal? Not going to happen, especially if they are a union orchestra and they are under tight rehearsal/break time limits.
Better to talk to the artistic director or executive/managing director who are the ones who probably write the checks and book the crew for next year's show anyway.
For me it was the orchestra's general manager. Maestro was busy and if he got involved it meant something was terribly wrong.
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In retrospect, you should probably have said "Thank You", loaded the trucks and went home! (The end-result would have been the same.)
A few weeks later we arrived at a venue with our sound system AND 96K worth of 1000 watt PAR's. This time it was a 50A dryer plug. We were told "that's what everone else uses". We hadn't unloaded anything but were sent packing by an angry promoter when we showed him the contract he signed. He somehow stopped payment on a deposit check that had cleared my bank. Sued, won, never able to collect anything!
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Orchestra outdoors, add reverb? And CL5 question.
I am asking this question of people that have outdoor orchestral experience.
It's been a while, but once upon a time I did a lot of orchestra/symphony dates outside. Some standalone, some with full pop acts in front of them. My $0.02 worth, go gently. I don't like to pretend I'm in a space that I'm not. But judicious, subtle, use of verb can help blend the sections back together. The REV-X hall programs are a good place to start on CL5.
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Yes, some Rex-X Hall reverb used sparingly, or more it requested, will help the outdoor sound of an orchestra. It's easy to get too much and as mentioned earlier, sounding like you are in a space that you aren't. The Rev-X is the one I keep coming back to.
As for the conductor walking out to listen to the mix, it's not unheard of. I have a wonderful working relationship with the conductors of the MS Symphony Orchestra and the USM Symphony Orchestra. Both of them liked being invited to listen to what I was doing and offer suggestions and did so early on until they got to the point of trusting what I did. There is always an orchestra "manager" of some kind that will listen in and sometimes offer ideas, but in general, they trust me after 20 or so years of working with them (And this is pretty much the only live gig I'll mix anymore).
Believe it or not, if the orchestra personnel find out you are a decent musician, too, it's almost like you can do no wrong. I always felt like the personnel respected me well enough, but a few years ago, I started playing bass again and shortly afterwards, a little pop-jazz group I played with opened for the big outdoor event that they do every year. Man, it was like, Welcome to the family with open arms from everyone, the conductor on down. And now I play in a few other bands that also have various orchestra members in them, too. Fun stuff these days!
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I'm a board member for our local symphony. Our conductor always want's to hire more strings than the orchestra can really afford. One solution for our orchestra has been to mic the string section even though we are in an auditorium with an acoustic shell. When we mic those sections, we add a subtle amount of reverb and send the strings only to the sound system. The conductor really appreciates this and knows it helps the sound for the audience. He still wants more strings, but . . .
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lOL...Really? Do you actually think that the conductor is going to spend any of his precious time running out to FOH to listen to the orchestra, while who conducts the rehearsal? Not going to happen, especially if they are a union orchestra and they are under tight rehearsal/break time limits.
Better to talk to the artistic director or executive/managing director who are the ones who probably write the checks and book the crew for next year's show anyway.
You might be surprised... I’ve seen it happen, and yes with a union orchestra... especially on outdoor summer type gigs.
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You might be surprised... I’ve seen it happen, and yes with a union orchestra... especially on outdoor summer type gigs.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I second this. One of our biggest clients is a regional symphony. The conductor loves to walk to FOH and the lawn for outdoor shows and get a feel for the mix. It means a lot to him that we are trying to get his vision for sound.
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Thank you all for the suggestions.
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A follow up - The show went even better than last year. The sound system was functional from the start this year so I was able to deal with the subtleties. The only issue I found was that left was right and right was left. But since I had no plans to try and do any stereo effects it didn’t affect me. I don’t mix in stereo even though I almost always set up a system in stereo.
We got nothing but compliments. I used a tiny bit of reverb on the orchestra and no one knew it was there. That is the way I like to do this kind of thing, enhance it but not so that someone can point out why it is better. The Yamaha CL5 and I are still not best of friends. I don’t dislike it but to me there is some really weird behavior to the navigation. I brought a tarp that is blue on one side and shiny silver (gray) on the other. I put it over the top of the FOH cover with the blue side down and tied it in the corners. It cut down on the sunlight coming into the FOH so I was able to see the touch screen a lot better. That really helped me a lot. Since the sun was low enough in the sky by show time, I removed the tarp before the show started so it wouldn’t be a distraction.
To the comments about the conductor and making friends, I didn’t respond earlier because I wanted to be careful to not accidentally spill the beans. I have worked with this conductor for years and I knew she was retiring but it wasn’t officially announced until this concert.
Thank you for all of the recommendations.
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lOL...Really? Do you actually think that the conductor is going to spend any of his precious time running out to FOH to listen to the orchestra, while who conducts the rehearsal? Not going to happen, especially if they are a union orchestra and they are under tight rehearsal/break time limits.
Better to talk to the artistic director or executive/managing director who are the ones who probably write the checks and book the crew for next year's show anyway.
FWIW: The professional orchestra I perform in (member of the clarinet section) IS a union orchestra (BMA; Boston Musicians' Association). During our "pops series" the assistant conductor stays at the FOH to direct the tech's mix.....just saying...