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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Lighting Forum => Topic started by: Gordon Brinton on January 09, 2018, 06:02:52 PM
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Currently looking to add more static front lighting to my bar rig. I want LED pars with amber (RGBA) to improve skin tone of performers. I want them to be very bright so things sparkle up there, but my budget is only $800-$1000 for 4 of them. Maybe more if I wait.
I've compared specs between Chauvet SlimPar Q12 and the ADJ 12P Hex. It seems that the Chauvet puts out nearly twice as much light at about 1/3 the power of the ADJ. Is the difference all because of beam angle? If so, which beam angle is best for small stages?
(BTW, my front light trees are usually setup where the main speakers are, some 10 to 25 feet away from the front-man. Most ceiling heights are around 10 to 14 feet. I think my light trees can reach 13'.)
SlimPar Q12 = 4,960 LUX@2M, power draw 45W, BA=17
ADJ 12P Hex = 2,770 LUX@2M, power draw 150W, BA=30
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Currently looking to add more static front lighting to my bar rig. I want LED pars with amber (RGBA) to improve skin tone of performers. I want them to be very bright so things sparkle up there, but my budget is only $800-$1000 for 4 of them. Maybe more if I wait.
I've compared specs between Chauvet SlimPar Q12 and the ADJ 12P Hex. It seems that the Chauvet puts out nearly twice as much light at about 1/3 the power of the ADJ. Is the difference all because of beam angle? If so, which beam angle is best for small stages?
(BTW, my front light trees are usually setup where the main speakers are, some 10 to 25 feet away from the front-man. Most ceiling heights are around 10 to 14 feet. I think my light trees can reach 13'.)
SlimPar Q12 = 4,960 LUX@2M, power draw 45W, BA=17
ADJ 12P Hex = 2,770 LUX@2M, power draw 150W, BA=30
If you have a light mounted 10' high and have a person standing 12' away from it, you optimistically have a 13' throw (distance the light has to travel). Your 17 degree fixture will give you only about a 4' diameter circle of light; your 30 degree fixture will give you a 7' circle. With only 4 lights and generally operating in a fairly small space, the wider beamspread would work the best.
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Currently looking to add more static front lighting to my bar rig. I want LED pars with amber (RGBA) to improve skin tone of performers. I want them to be very bright so things sparkle up there, but my budget is only $800-$1000 for 4 of them. Maybe more if I wait.
I've compared specs between Chauvet SlimPar Q12 and the ADJ 12P Hex. It seems that the Chauvet puts out nearly twice as much light at about 1/3 the power of the ADJ. Is the difference all because of beam angle? If so, which beam angle is best for small stages?
(BTW, my front light trees are usually setup where the main speakers are, some 10 to 25 feet away from the front-man. Most ceiling heights are around 10 to 14 feet. I think my light trees can reach 13'.)
SlimPar Q12 = 4,960 LUX@2M, power draw 45W, BA=17
ADJ 12P Hex = 2,770 LUX@2M, power draw 150W, BA=30
If I switch from my current incandescent Pars to an LED for the front wash, the ADJ 5P Hex is on my list. The 30 deg beam angle and amber led's are the exact features I was looking for. I personally think the 1250 lux will be plenty for my speaker-mounted front wash. They fit within your budget.
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What's the difference between beam angle and field angle? I'm looking at some light for front lighting as well and they offer both beam and field angle on the specs.
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"Beam" is the brightly lit area illuminated; "field" is the area from the edge of the beam out to where there is no illumination. In a hard edge focus, beam and field essentially coincide. The bigger the difference, the softer the focus.
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What's the difference between beam angle and field angle? I'm looking at some light for front lighting as well and they offer both beam and field angle on the specs.
What Mark said, but to put some numbers on it - “Beam Angle” is generally considered to be any part of the beam that’s at least 50% the maximum luminous intensity of the unit. This is not always rotationally symmetric. “Field Angle” is any part of the beam less than 50% the maximum luminous intensity but more than 10%. The published numbers are usually taken at the 50% and 10% marks. The further apart the numbers are, the softer the edge of the beam will usually be.
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I'm looking at the Chauvet Colordash Quad 18. https://www.chauvetprofessional.com/products/colordash-par-quad-18/
Specs are:
•Light Source: 18 LEDs (quad-color RGBA) 7 W, (500 mA), 50,000 hours life expectancy
•Color Temperature (range): 2800 to 10000 K
•Installed Optics: 20°
•Beam Angle: 18°
•Field Angle: 32.5°
•Illuminance: 1,210 lux @ 5 m
•PWM Frequency: 600 Hz
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I'm looking at the Chauvet Colordash Quad 18. https://www.chauvetprofessional.com/products/colordash-par-quad-18/
Specs are:
•Light Source: 18 LEDs (quad-color RGBA) 7 W, (500 mA), 50,000 hours life expectancy
•Color Temperature (range): 2800 to 10000 K
•Installed Optics: 20°
•Beam Angle: 18°
•Field Angle: 32.5°
•Illuminance: 1,210 lux @ 5 m
•PWM Frequency: 600 Hz
That's an extremely narrow beam, and very bright. For a front wash in a typical club setting, those would not work for me.
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That's an extremely narrow beam, and very bright. For a front wash in a typical club setting, those would not work for me.
A 20˚ beam angle is actually fairly typical for an LED Par. I agree that it’s pretty narrow if you only have a few fixtures and need to cover a whole stage. The good news is there are plastic diffraction lenses that you can put in front of the light to widen the beam. Elation sells them as do others.
http://www.elationlighting.com/lsf-filters
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A 20˚ beam angle is actually fairly typical for an LED Par. I agree that it’s pretty narrow if you only have a few fixtures and need to cover a whole stage. The good news is there are plastic diffraction lenses that you can put in front of the light to widen the beam. Elation sells them as do others.
http://www.elationlighting.com/lsf-filters
His budget is $800-$1000 for 4 lights. That's a $400+ light, that is extremely bright for 10 to 25 ft from the performer. I would like to try one of those diffusing gels out some day, but I love the simplicity of an led par.
I still say the 30 degree ADJ 5P Hex is a better fit. (4) of them would cover the stage nicely at $140 each.
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That's an extremely narrow beam, and very bright. For a front wash in a typical club setting, those would not work for me.
I'm in a different boat then the OP. I don't do club/bar gigs. I do about 8-10 events a year where my stage is 40' wide x 20-25' deep. Right now I have first gen led pars, bright as hell, no amber or white in them. I have to reduce the blue to make them not look like a character from the Knight Kings army on GoT. I have 4 bars with 4 pars on each. It works but videographers and photographers have been complaining about the "blue" tint and they also cause flicker.
I have been looking around and have also found these. https://www.blizzardlighting.com/collections/washlights/products/propar-z19-rgbw-black
Yes, they are expensive but offer a white led in the light, they are bright and also zoom via DMX.
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OP here.
I ended up getting something altogether different than my original post referred to. After more research, I ordered 4 of Chauvet SlimPar Pro H. Their final street price was just under $1000 US. Right on budget and they are plenty bright enough for my use.
I didn't really want my front lighting to be general wash lights. Instead, I wanted them to appear more like spots for the performers and not interfere with the stage wash coming from the rear lights. However, real spots would be too narrow at close range.
Most of my rear stage wash hits the floor right behind the front line of performers. (Except for the center-most ones are on the drummer.) Two guys stand front and center, two stand slightly behind and off to each side, and drummer is rear-center. I wanted the 4 standing performers to be lit up amber-white so they stand out above and separated from the stage wash behind them. These new cans work really well for that on small stages and I can always add barn doors to tighten the beam if needed.
I already had 4 Dotz Pars on the front two guys, (two for each guy,) but I have moved those to spot duty for the secondary front players who stand slightly behind the front guys. Now I have eight front lights for 4 standing performers and each man gets two-point lighting from opposite sides to reduce shadows. The Pro H's are on the front guys and the Dotz Pars are on the other two guys.
My front lighting spends most of the show as amber-white, but do become different colors in a few scenes for special effect. So far I have had them out for one show and I am extremely happy with them. The performers look so much better than before, (brighter and bigger than life,) and I can solo spot each of the band members more effectively. My rear wash lights are bright as hell too, so now everything really sparkles like I wanted. I can't stand dim stages unless the song calls for it.
Thanks for the help and ideas. I am happy.
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When you're lighting a performer from both sides, use a (slightly or not) different 'color' from each side.
This will get your shadow reduction, but still give depth to the performer.
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OP here.
I ended up getting something altogether different than my original post referred to. After more research, I ordered 4 of Chauvet SlimPar Pro H. Their final street price was just under $1000 US. Right on budget and they are plenty bright enough for my use.
I didn't really want my front lighting to be general wash lights. Instead, I wanted them to appear more like spots for the performers and not interfere with the stage wash coming from the rear lights. However, real spots would be too narrow at close range.
Most of my rear stage wash hits the floor right behind the front line of performers. (Except for the center-most ones are on the drummer.) Two guys stand front and center, two stand slightly behind and off to each side, and drummer is rear-center. I wanted the 4 standing performers to be lit up amber-white so they stand out above and separated from the stage wash behind them. These new cans work really well for that on small stages and I can always add barn doors to tighten the beam if needed.
I already had 4 Dotz Pars on the front two guys, (two for each guy,) but I have moved those to spot duty for the secondary front players who stand slightly behind the front guys. Now I have eight front lights for 4 standing performers and each man gets two-point lighting from opposite sides to reduce shadows. The Pro H's are on the front guys and the Dotz Pars are on the other two guys.
My front lighting spends most of the show as amber-white, but do become different colors in a few scenes for special effect. So far I have had them out for one show and I am extremely happy with them. The performers look so much better than before, (brighter and bigger than life,) and I can solo spot each of the band members more effectively. My rear wash lights are bright as hell too, so now everything really sparkles like I wanted. I can't stand dim stages unless the song calls for it.
Thanks for the help and ideas. I am happy.
Nice job. Sounds like you got it panned out perfectly. All we need now is a pic of the band performing!
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To the OP:
How would you compare the relative output of your Dotz Pars with the SlimPar Pro H?
I own 8 of the Dotz pars for my "still experimenting with lighting" rig. I finally purged all my old lights out of inventory, so I'm looking for something up-front with some white and amber so I can keep the Dotz Pars in the back on a pair of t-bars. At 36w each (Dotz Pars), I'm concerned I might overpower them if I get something too bright up front (like the 100w SlimPar Pro H, or some other fixtures I've been looking into). I know I can always dim something that's too bright, but there's also the issue of spending money I didn't need to spend on higher output fixtures, and I have a pretty good idea what I can do with a Dotz Par.
I don't have a lot of experience in lighting yet, but those SlimPars are on my short list so I thought I'd ask you what you thought of using those with your Dotz Pars.
Sorry for the slight swerve. Thanks in advance for anything you can share.
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To the OP:
How would you compare the relative output of your Dotz Pars with the SlimPar Pro H?
I own 8 of the Dotz pars for my "still experimenting with lighting" rig. I finally purged all my old lights out of inventory, so I'm looking for something up-front with some white and amber so I can keep the Dotz Pars in the back on a pair of t-bars. At 36w each (Dotz Pars), I'm concerned I might overpower them if I get something too bright up front (like the 100w SlimPar Pro H, or some other fixtures I've been looking into). I know I can always dim something that's too bright, but there's also the issue of spending money I didn't need to spend on higher output fixtures, and I have a pretty good idea what I can do with a Dotz Par.
I don't have a lot of experience in lighting yet, but those SlimPars are on my short list so I thought I'd ask you what you thought of using those with your Dotz Pars.
Sorry for the slight swerve. Thanks in advance for anything you can share.
Well, those are not easy to compare. The Pro H's are definitely brighter than the Dotz and have what I would call a wider beam angle. I know the H's advertise a Beam Angle of 24 and a Field Angle of 41, but there is a blur between the two measurements. That is, the edge of the Beam Angle is not district enough to clearly define and measure. However, on the Dotz Pars, (with the beam lens on,) I can clearly see the edges of the beam.
I measured the Beam Width of both lights side-by-side in my basement using their brightest settings...
Dotz Par: At 12 feet out from the wall, (with lens installed,) the beam edge is fairly distinct at 5 feet wide.
SlimPar Pro H: At 12 feet out from the wall, the beam edge and field edge are a total blur somewhere between 5 and 10 feet wide. If I had to pick a beam angle edge, that is, a well-lit usable area, I would say then roughly 8 feet wide.
One other notable difference is at the edges of the beam, the Dotz has edges that are reddish or bluish and then it blends into white as you move inward. However, on the H's, the edges have no rainbow effect at all. The color is the same tone and even the entire way across the beam.
As far as brightness. The Pro H's are way brighter by about 2000 more LUX, also proportioned evenly across the entire beam. I've noticed an improvement in overall brightness and sparkle up there. Although, I may soon add barn doors for more controlled focus.
Both are silent with no fans.
Both have DMX in/out and AC in/out.
The Pro H's have amber light to produce a golden color for improved skin tone. On the Dotz, I had to simulate the amber tone by reducing the blues and greens a bit which sacrifices some brightness.
The Pro H's have UV light as an added bonus.
The Pro H's are very well built, sturdy, and heavy.
I wasn't worried about the front lights overpowering the stage wash from the rear because, well, for one thing, my rear lights are 150 Watts each and I have 8 of them. But also because my wash lights aim directly down to the stage floor. Where as my front lights are more aimed at head, shoulders, and instruments and not so much on floors. The lighted performers really stand out above the wash with almost a 3D look. You may get similar results with careful/prudent positioning. If I were you, I would perhaps keep the lens attachments on all of the Dotz Pars because they will appear brighter and more focused even thought they are on wash duty. With a bit of fog, the more narrow wash beams will look good.
I hope this helps.
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I've noticed an improvement in overall brightness and sparkle up there. Although, I may soon add barn doors for more controlled focus.
Experiment with some pieces of cardboard to see how barn doors would actually work with that product. You may find that you need very large barn doors to make any difference to the beam spread.
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Experiment with some pieces of cardboard to see how barn doors would actually work with that product. You may find that you need very large barn doors to make any difference to the beam spread.
Ok. Thank you for that advice. Will do.
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Experiment with some pieces of cardboard to see how barn doors would actually work with that product. You may find that you need very large barn doors to make any difference to the beam spread.
A "snoot" (a/k/a a "top hat") might also help with beam control, used alone or in addition to barn doors.
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Gord, thank you! That was much more info than I was expecting. I appreciate your time.
I’ve never used the Dotz Pars WITHOUT the 25 degree lense so far. It just loses intensity too drastically. A larger wash area would be nice for my use, which sounds like the Slimpar can do. I’ve been eyeing up the Elation Sixpar series as well for their 6 in 1 LEDs and IP rating, but the beam is a little tight for what I need (15 degrees).
What annoys me about the Dotz Par is the side outlet of the power and data connectors. They use IEC in and thru, maybe it’s just the cables I’m using but there isn’t much flexibility in them between the bracket and the fixture. A molded IEC doesn’t like to turn that tightly. It’s great for uplighting having everything out the same side, but on a t-bar I want the cables facing the bar to keep it neat, and that means I mount them on the top of the bar in order to allow them to point downward to the stage floor. They won’t point upward due to the cables getting in the way, unless I mount them under the bar, but then they won’t go down. It’s a minor thing, but it’s something I never thought of before.
Good point about the rear lights washing the stage floor versus the front lights being head height. Maybe I’m making something out of nothing. I sure have a lot to learn when it comes to lighting. I thought I was close to picking some fixtures then I opened the rabbit hole of “what controller will I use for all this, when I outgrow my Luminair software”. Another conversation for another time...
Thanks again eh!
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Nice job. Sounds like you got it panned out perfectly. All we need now is a pic of the band performing!
Here is one of the bands I work with. This stage was a bit wider than the ones I had planned my lighting for, but you can still see the effect. Because of the wider stage, I should have tried barn doors or snoots here, but didn't have any extra time prior to the show.
Anyway, skin tone looks better than with the older RGB (blue-white) lights that I used to have.
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Here is one of the bands I work with. This stage was a bit wider than the ones I had planned my lighting for, but you can still see the effect. Because of the wider stage, I should have tried barn doors or snoots here, but didn't have any extra time prior to the show.
Anyway, skin tone looks better than with the older RGB (blue-white) lights that I used to have.
Looks great! How are they mounted?
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With a multi-element LED fixture, barn doors or a tube will not be very effective unless it is quite long.
Each LED will make it's own separate shadow, and the edges don't line up.
You really need a single light source to get a sharp edged beam.
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Looks great! How are they mounted?
Just your typical T-bar on tripod stands. I bought some really short IEC cables so that I could daisy-chain power across all 4 fixtures on the bar. Same deal with DMX...they are wireless and daisy'd. All I do is plug in a single power cable for each front tree, raise them up, and aim. Thinking of ordering road cases for them now.
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Just your typical T-bar on tripod stands. I bought some really short IEC cables so that I could daisy-chain power across all 4 fixtures on the bar. Same deal with DMX...they are wireless and daisy'd. All I do is plug in a single power cable for each front tree, raise them up, and aim. Thinking of ordering road cases for them now.
That's exactly how my trees are done. I use a keyboard soft-case for transport.
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That's exactly how my trees are done. I use a keyboard soft-case for transport.
How's that working for you Steve? I've been considering the same idea, if I can find a keyboard case big enough.
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Currently looking to add more static front lighting to my bar rig. I want LED pars with amber (RGBA) to improve skin tone of performers. I want them to be very bright so things sparkle up there, but my budget is only $800-$1000 for 4 of them. Maybe more if I wait.
I've compared specs between Chauvet SlimPar Q12 and the ADJ 12P Hex. It seems that the Chauvet puts out nearly twice as much light at about 1/3 the power of the ADJ. Is the difference all because of beam angle? If so, which beam angle is best for small stages?
(BTW, my front light trees are usually setup where the main speakers are, some 10 to 25 feet away from the front-man. Most ceiling heights are around 10 to 14 feet. I think my light trees can reach 13'.)
SlimPar Q12 = 4,960 LUX@2M, power draw 45W, BA=17
ADJ 12P Hex = 2,770 LUX@2M, power draw 150W, BA=30
Don't know if you're still looking Gordon, but I have the Chauvet Q12s. Love em! I started with 4 in the front(2 on each side). Added another 4 as soon as I had the funds. In situations similar to what you're describing, these PARs throw a great deal of light. In smaller clubs I usually have them way less than 100% on. And I love the added Amber. These things make a great salmon color which works great for skin tone enhancement.
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How's that working for you Steve? I've been considering the same idea, if I can find a keyboard case big enough.
Great. This is my "do all" light bar that I include for free with every PA rental. The lights are color fade and sound active. I throw this up behind the drummer. It fits in the case perfectly, even though the T-Bar was slightly longer than the soft case inside dimension.
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Here is one of the bands I work with. This stage was a bit wider than the ones I had planned my lighting for, but you can still see the effect. Because of the wider stage, I should have tried barn doors or snoots here, but didn't have any extra time prior to the show.
Anyway, skin tone looks better than with the older RGB (blue-white) lights that I used to have.
I use four of the eight lights on the front trees for spots. I have had pretty good luck with the plain RGB lights at least for club situations. It just takes some time finding the right blend. I really like the ease of use from my 4Bar TRI Chauvet bars. They come with a case and are wifi enabled, both make setup and transport easy. The photos show 4 4BAR TRI and some Chauvet movers.
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I use four of the eight lights on the front trees for spots. I have had pretty good luck with the plain RGB lights at least for club situations. It just takes some time finding the right blend. I really like the ease of use from my 4Bar TRI Chauvet bars. They come with a case and are wifi enabled, both make setup and transport easy. The photos show 4 4BAR TRI and some Chauvet movers.
Those look very good for 3W led's! Do you control them via the wifi foot pedal?
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Those look very good for 3W led's! Do you control them via the wifi foot pedal?
I have used the wifi pedal that come with them before but it is extremely basic. I was using a Chauvet Obey40 DFI controller until recently. I added more lights and ran out of channels so I have moved to luminair on my iPad and an Enttec ODE. I use a FCB1010 foot controller to control luminair via midi.
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I have used the wifi pedal that come with them before but it is extremely basic. I was using a Chauvet Obey40 DFI controller until recently. I added more lights and ran out of channels so I have moved to luminair on my iPad and an Enttec ODE. I use a FCB1010 foot controller to control luminair via midi.
You should write up a tutorial, or better make some Youtube videos on how to do all of that! I see people asking how to do that all of the time. I have the Luminaire setup as well, but haven't gotten around to programming it. I have zero knowledge of how to make the pedal work via midi.
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You should write up a tutorial, or better make some Youtube videos on how to do all of that! I see people asking how to do that all of the time. I have the Luminaire setup as well, but haven't gotten around to programming it. I have zero knowledge of how to make the pedal work via midi.
I think everyone gets caught up with MIDI on xxx. MIDI is MIDI. It's very easy to work with. Musicians (gasp) have been doing it for years.
Read a quick tutorial on MIDI then the terms in your software will make sense.
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I think everyone gets caught up with MIDI on xxx. MIDI is MIDI. It's very easy to work with. Musicians (gasp) have been doing it for years.
Read a quick tutorial on MIDI then the terms in your software will make sense.
I agree with you that MIDI as a concept is not rocket science although as someone who only learned it in the last year it is more complicated than you may remember. However, the real challenge in my MIDI implementation is the terrible manuals that are currently in vogue. Both my sending device and my receiving device have terrible manuals. The FCB1010 would have remained a mystery had it not been for a couple forums like this one. The Luminair manual is more of a marketing device than manual. If I had to guess, 50% of the features are mentioned and 10% are actually explained. It took me days of programming and reprogramming to get a positive outcome. It is an amazing application and had it not been for my stubbornness I may have given up.
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You should write up a tutorial, or better make some Youtube videos on how to do all of that! I see people asking how to do that all of the time. I have the Luminaire setup as well, but haven't gotten around to programming it. I have zero knowledge of how to make the pedal work via midi.
I have thought about recommending a sticky thread on this website for Luminair. It is an incredibly full featured application but the manual and Youtube videos dont begin to educate the end user.
Feel free to PM me any questions you may have or ask them on the forum and I would be happy to answer any questions I can. I would consider it a contribution back to the community that has given me so much.
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I have thought about recommending a sticky thread on this website for Luminair. It is an incredibly full featured application but the manual and Youtube videos dont begin to educate the end user.
I'd rather see two sticky threads here - a DMX 101 thread since the question of how DMX works (fixture addressing, patching, etc.) comes up often enough, along with a Software vs Hardware thread. It's basically the "subs on auxes" debate of the lighting world so to speak. The abundance of options would make it a little tricky to keep up to date, but I'd think almost all of us would agree that the same 4 or 5 options come up here often enough to warrant a once-and-done explanation.
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I have thought about recommending a sticky thread on this website for Luminair. It is an incredibly full featured application but the manual and Youtube videos dont begin to educate the end user.
Feel free to PM me any questions you may have or ask them on the forum and I would be happy to answer any questions I can. I would consider it a contribution back to the community that has given me so much.
Very generous Allen. You'll probably here from me at some point! I just mailed my Magic 260 to a repair shop, and if I get bad news I'll need to get started programming my show on Luminaire.
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Very generous Allen. You'll probably here from me at some point! I just mailed my Magic 260 to a repair shop, and if I get bad news I'll need to get started programming my show on Luminaire.
I snagged a Showdesigner 2CF off eBay as a backup to my trusted MagicQ. The show I was assigned to canceled tonight so I am going to unpack and move programming.
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Great. This is my "do all" light bar that I include for free with every PA rental. The lights are color fade and sound active. I throw this up behind the drummer. It fits in the case perfectly, even though the T-Bar was slightly longer than the soft case inside dimension.
Thanks Steve!!
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I use four of the eight lights on the front trees for spots. I have had pretty good luck with the plain RGB lights at least for club situations. It just takes some time finding the right blend. I really like the ease of use from my 4Bar TRI Chauvet bars. They come with a case and are wifi enabled, both make setup and transport easy. The photos show 4 4BAR TRI and some Chauvet movers.
Nice pictures Allen. Thanks for sharing. I'm always looking for ideas.