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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => LAB Lounge FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: Anastasio Guerra on May 14, 2006, 01:49:23 AM

Title: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Anastasio Guerra on May 14, 2006, 01:49:23 AM

Looking for the best cab for the money. I am leaning toward the Peaveys. Is the extra cost on the JBLs and the EV's worth it? Need to purchase soon. Thanks

Peavey SP2
JBL MP 415
EV Zx4

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Chris Hinds on May 14, 2006, 06:35:08 AM

Then I would suggest going to a local dealer and listening.  Buying speakers blind is the worst possible thing you can do.  Whether the JBL/EV are worth the extra money is highly subject to interpretation.  You also need to answer some questions:

1. How many people am I playing to?
2. What kind of material am I playing?
3. Do I need to be able to expand (array) into a larger system in the future?
4. Am I using subs and if so what kind of processing too?
5. What makes me feel I need to upgrade from the existing?

That's just for starters, there's a hundred and one other questions that can only be answered with the experience you have.  Failing that a search here will reveal that the MP series are generally well liked, the MP4xx more so than the MP2xx.

Hope the thoughts are of use

Regards

Chris

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Kemper Watson on May 14, 2006, 09:39:50 AM

All three of these are great choices. I own two of your choices, the Peavy's and JBL's. Both sound pretty good. I believe the PV's are a little cheaper($100 maybe) If you get the Peavy's try running them bi-amped. You'll be supprised at the difference.

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Steve Oldridge on May 14, 2006, 11:30:29 PM

I've running a pair of SP2's bi-amped for tops and what a difference when compared to full range. Horns were replaced with Selenium DT10i's, but kept the BW 15's...
They perform vey well.


STeve

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Austin Parker on May 14, 2006, 11:45:03 PM

Chris Hinds wrote on Sun, 14 May 2006 06:35

Then I would suggest going to a local dealer and listening.  Buying speakers blind is the worst possible thing you can do.  Whether the JBL/EV are worth the extra money is highly subject to interpretation.

YES! never ever buy blind. only your ears will tell you what you like and don't like. Just because 100 people have peaveys and 10 have jbls (or visa-versa) doesn't mean the 'least popular' are of lesser quality.

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: james page on May 15, 2006, 02:04:57 AM

Austin Parker wrote on Mon, 15 May 2006 04:45

Chris Hinds wrote on Sun, 14 May 2006 06:35 Then I would suggest going to a local dealer and listening.  Buying speakers blind is the worst possible thing you can do.  Whether the JBL/EV are worth the extra money is highly subject to interpretation.   YES! never ever buy blind. only your ears will tell you what you like and don't like. Just because 100 people have peaveys and 10 have jbls (or visa-versa) doesn't mean the 'least popular' are of lesser quality.

This is great advice but it can really limit your choices. I live in a major metro area (SF) and i never see many of the speakers that are touted in this forum.
JP

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Tony Peaker on May 15, 2006, 06:02:13 AM

Gotta agree with Austin and Chris.  Test drive your gear before you buy it.  Talk to the dealer and see if they can let you take the speakers to an actual gig and run them to test them in a real world situation.  As long as you are actually going to buy speakers from them and are not just looking for a free hire then most dealers shouldn't have a problem. If they won't let you test them (or at least listen to them side by side in the shop) then take your business elsewhere.

We auditioned 4 or 5 different companies systems at our venue before we bought our Martin line array.  Just because you are a smaller operator doesn't mean that you should do any less.

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Scott Kraft on May 15, 2006, 11:46:19 AM

Having an A+B+C critical listening comparison seems to be the most advisable choice when purchasing cabinets at similiar price points. At this level, rider acceptability should be a non-issue, so brand name recognition, (hopefully) shouldn't persuade you in one direction or the other. Bottom line is, are YOU happy with the results that are obtained from one set of speakers over the others? My quick .02 is this... the SP2's are an excellent value and can take a severe beating. I used the earliest versions of them back in the mid 90's when they were loaded with the Scorpion driver, and I never had a failure driving them 5 hours a night/4 nights a week at full rated power. JBL's MP415 is a little overpriced IMO, but you can't argue with the quality of materials and construction used on those cabs-wonderful! (avoid the MP2xx series as they use the less expensive JRX components) I have no opinion on the EV's as I have never personally worked with them, but I suspect they are equal to the others in just about every respect regarding choice of components and material/build quality. Good luck!

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Dan Thompson on May 15, 2006, 04:20:35 PM

Steve Oldridge wrote on Sun, 14 May 2006 23:30

I've running a pair of SP2's bi-amped for tops and what a difference when compared to full range. Horns were replaced with Selenium DT10i's, but kept the BW 15's... They perform vey well. STeve

I run older SP2G's and am interested in your comment about bi-amping vs full range. Can you qualify the "what a difference" comment? Describe the improvement. It sounds like it may be worth the trouble to pursue that option. I'll take input from anyone on this issue (fullrange vs bi-amping).

Dan

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Steve Oldridge on May 15, 2006, 08:29:24 PM

Dan Thompson wrote on Mon, 15 May 2006 15:20

Steve Oldridge wrote on Sun, 14 May 2006 23:30 I've running a pair of SP2's bi-amped for tops and what a difference when compared to full range. Horns were replaced with Selenium DT10i's, but kept the BW 15's... They perform vey well. STeve I run older SP2G's and am interested in your comment about bi-amping vs full range. Can you qualify the "what a difference" comment? Describe the improvement. It sounds like it may be worth the trouble to pursue that option. I'll take input from anyone on this issue (fullrange vs bi-amping). Dan

Dan,
bi-amping [by default] will give better clarity and separation of the specific frequency ranges sent to the drivers due to the signal be split - at the crossover point - and amplified prior to getting to the driver vs. a passive split at speaker enclosure. I can't provide you all the 'tech' details, but it's probably due to crossover type (24 vs 12db slopes, active/passive, etc.). I do know that bi-amped will always sound better. Perhaps someone can give you the techincal explanation.

In my case, I'm running a [stereo] tri-amp system, thru a BDX 234XL x-over, so everything above the mono LF split (around 100Hz) goes into the SP2's.  The MF/HF split is set at 1.8Khz (per Peavey recommendation). So the Peavey BW 15" gets 100-1.8Khz and the Seleniums horns get the rest above 1.8K.
The SP2's have 2 NL4 Speakons, in parallel, on each box. Each SP4 has +1/-1 wired to the 15" and +2/-2 wired to the horn direct (or is it the other way around..?? I forget. Wired it up in standard manner some time ago).

I have a back plate on the amp rack with FOH L and R outs (NL4's) wired up from both amps. It's a quick hookup and it also allows different wiring if for some reason I need to run bridged or in some other config.

Steve

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Dan Thompson on May 16, 2006, 09:44:58 AM

Thanks for the reply Steve. My SP2G's are 1/4" only requiring an additional cable run but that's not too big a deal. I think that the passive Peavey x-over also saps a bit of power (lost as heat) meaning that the bi-amping route delivers more of the amps power to the drivers. I've been thinking about trying this arrangement but it will mean a different set of poweramps and I just don't know that the juice will be worth the squeeze. I run each SP2G with a bridged RMX 850 @600w/cab. If I want to continue running stereo and split the two 850s for mid & high duty, the mids (15s on the SP2) will only get @200w/cab. While the 850 should be fine for the horns, I'll need 500-600w/side @8ohms to drive the 15s. My plan all along has been to consolidate the 850's into one amp (PLX 3002/3402) to ease transport issues. I guess my question remains, are the performance advantages worth the extra amp and wiring issues (I'm sure they are or everyone would run full range!)?

Dan

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Paul O'Brien on May 16, 2006, 10:59:17 AM

The benifits of biamping come from bypassing the passive crossover. There are phase response and timing issues with a typical 2 way PA speaker system that you have no control over with a passive crossover, but there's also issues with crossover saturation as you approach the rated power levels. With a well designed speaker system, these things would be considered and designed around as best as possible, but there's always cost limits on component quality and on just how much R&D you can put into any particular speaker system, so the lower end speakers usually get the short end of the stick.
If you are at or above the program power level of a speaker system, you may actually be overdriving the crossover somewhat. This adds substantial distortion to the signal. It has been my experience that bi-amping a cab at this level makes a dramatic improvement in overall clarity in sound, because the input signals to the drivers are clean and uncompressed by these passive components. This assumes you use appropriatly sized amps, correct crossover frequencies, and keep the amps out of clipping, obviously. The benifits are less obvious if you are well below rated power.

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Miguel Castro Rios on May 17, 2006, 05:47:43 PM

hey!

-- i might be a little 2 late to make any coments.

-in case you deside to get the peavey sp2, MAKE SURE you get the "black-widow" driver, not the "scorpion".

i've heard that the scorpion is a bit cheaper, and is not as good, it doesn't have the same output.

-i've used the sp2 with the black-widow driver, and it worked fine, i was happy, I've used them for 'bout 4 years and still work fine, they do get loud enough and can take tons of abuse.

good luck!

-EDIT-

- I Forgot to mention, the sp2 you can use without a sub for a small bar, i've used them full-range without a sub, and they sound really nice, they have a nice low end and sweet highs. but again, this is when only when you use them at low spl levels.

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Steve Oldridge on May 18, 2006, 01:18:04 AM

miguel castro wrote on Wed, 17 May 2006 16:47

- I Forgot to mention, the sp2 you can use without a sub for a small bar, i've used them full-range without a sub, and they sound really nice, they have a nice low end and sweet highs. but again, this is when only when you use them at low spl levels.

Before I added subs, eveything from 1.8K down went into the BW 15's and yes, they handled the LF part very nicely. But as Paul so eloquently explained, adding subs allowed me reduce any LF distortion or sub-bass harmonics (etc.) that would have been handled by the BW and clean up the mid-range too. I get clean, clean clean mid's from 100Hz to 1.8K. The upper end is probably a little higher than I would like to set the crossover point (maybe 1.6K), but that's whats' recommened by manufacturer, and seems to work fine. Perhaps the good separation is due to the 24db filters in the crossover. I'm running one side of an RMX2450 into each BW 15 (500w), and one channel of a Yammy P7000s @ 4 ohms (1100w) into the dual 15 sub. The HF Seleniums are run by an old Alesis RA100 (100w stereo). I have no separation or balance issues.

Stve

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Mike McNany on May 18, 2006, 09:56:40 AM

miguel castro wrote on Wed, 17 May 2006 17:47

-in case you deside to get the peavey sp2, MAKE SURE you get the "black-widow" driver, not the "scorpion". i've heard that the scorpion is a bit cheaper, and is not as good, it doesn't have the same output.

Miguel,

Just to keep things straight, ALL SP2s ever produced have Black Widow series woofers in them from the factory. The Woofers were upgraded in power handling over the years but were still Black Widows.

The Scorpions are a lighter duty version on the BWs and still have field replaceable baskets, AFAIK. I remember ONE of the SP series (SP5?) has Scorpions in them to cut costs but NOT the SP2.

Mike McNany

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Tim Padrick on May 21, 2006, 12:01:10 AM

http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/BuyPA.htm

Title: Re: Best Value - Main Cabs for Band
Post by: Too Tall (Curtis H. List) on May 23, 2006, 03:00:26 PM

Dan Thompson wrote on Mon, 15 May 2006 16:20

Steve Oldridge wrote on Sun, 14 May 2006 23:30 I've running a pair of SP2's bi-amped for tops and what a difference when compared to full range. Horns were replaced with Selenium DT10i's, but kept the BW 15's... They perform vey well. STeve I run older SP2G's and am interested in your comment about bi-amping vs full range. Can you qualify the "what a difference" comment? Describe the improvement. It sounds like it may be worth the trouble to pursue that option. I'll take input from anyone on this issue (fullrange vs bi-amping). Dan

If a full range passive xover is going to work as well as the typical 4th order LR active xover (analog, not digital) they need to spend around $100 retail in caps, coils and resistors. At the level you are looking at it is almost never done.

That said if you give me the three boxes you sited I can build a passive xover that will smoke a design using an active xover and 1/3rd octave EQ. To do as well you have to use a DSP that has a number of parametric EQs available.

In the end I guess that tells the tale. You have to design the xover yourself on anything below $500 a box (a guess). You just can’t expect them to put in anything that costs that much.