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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Mike Henderson on September 18, 2020, 12:46:33 PM
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Ok guys, so I now that I have my bass settled I need to do something about my Tops. I am currently using a pair of EV Eliminator i speakers but being on top of my EAW SB1000 sub in my small one car garage is close and too harsh for my ears. No matter how I tried to equalize them not much improvement.
So I want to try a ceiling mounted top like a line array but need something analog and non-powered to try to maintain that analog tone. I can't remember line array speakers being around in the 70s so looking for something with warm mids and highs.
I was thinking of trying maybe a Community Top but was told that those usually tend to be very loud and harsh so any recommendations please?
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Get some old blankets and throw and throw them over in front of the tops
fold blankets until you get the bite reduction you like
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Ok guys, so I now that I have my bass settled I need to do something about my Tops. I am currently using a pair of EV Eliminator i speakers but being on top of my EAW SB1000 sub in my small one car garage is close and too harsh for my ears. No matter how I tried to equalize them not much improvement.
So I want to try a ceiling mounted top like a line array but need something analog and non-powered to try to maintain that analog tone. I can't remember line array speakers being around in the 70s so looking for something with warm mids and highs.
I was thinking of trying maybe a Community Top but was told that those usually tend to be very loud and harsh so any recommendations please?
Why would you EVER consider a line array for a 1 car garage?????????????
If you look at what a line array claims to do, you should quickly realize it doesn't matter in a very small room.
What you WILL get is more interference and cancellation notches in the response. But maybe that is the "sound" you are looking for. Different people like different things.
I would stick to what is called a "point source" type loudspeaker, even though non of the so called point sources actually are. But it still much better than a line array for your application.
And yes, "line arrays" were out in the 70's and decades before. Olson described in his book (now close to 80 years ago) the issues with line arrays, regarding polar response etc.
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Ok guys, so I now that I have my bass settled I need to do something about my Tops. I am currently using a pair of EV Eliminator i speakers but being on top of my EAW SB1000 sub in my small one car garage is close and too harsh for my ears. No matter how I tried to equalize them not much improvement.
So I want to try a ceiling mounted top like a line array but need something analog and non-powered to try to maintain that analog tone. I can't remember line array speakers being around in the 70s so looking for something with warm mids and highs.
I was thinking of trying maybe a Community Top but was told that those usually tend to be very loud and harsh so any recommendations please?
Not sure what you mean by analog tone in a PA speaker but it sounds like you want to go old school. Oldest speaker design I can think of is a horn. One company that only makes horn speakers is Danley. Check out their SH50 and other models.
Maybe you could try adding a tube preamp or a processor that has tubes before the amps to get that nice warm sound. Or roll off the highs.
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Here's another another suggestion turn your tops around backwards Point them at the wall move them away from the wall until you like that disbursed sound
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Here's another another suggestion turn your tops around backwards Point them at the wall move them away from the wall until you like that disbursed sound
I knew a guitar player that did that with his amp. It was too harsh and his "solution" was to point it against the back wall.
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Why would you EVER consider a line array for a 1 car garage?????????????
I would stick to what is called a "point source" type loudspeaker, even though non of the so called point sources actually are. But it still much better than a line array for your application.
And yes, "line arrays" were out in the 70's and decades before. Olson described in his book (now close to 80 years ago) the issues with line arrays, regarding polar response etc.
Only for ceiling mounting purposes is why I am looking at line array.
Not sure what you mean by "point source" speaker.
The Danley looks good.
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Only for ceiling mounting purposes is why I am looking at line array.
Not sure what you mean by "point source" speaker.
The Danley looks good.
I have the same problem. I'm old school and still miss my Martin "Phillishave" system. Danley gave me my fix and I'm now back to being a normal working person in society.
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Only for ceiling mounting purposes is why I am looking at line array.
Not sure what you mean by "point source" speaker.
The Danley looks good.
Sounds GOOD too!!
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I have the same problem. I'm old school and still miss my Martin "Phillishave" system. Danley gave me my fix and I'm now back to being a normal working person in society.
Glad you got yours sorted! Can you tell me if yours is ceiling mounted or on top of your sub please?
I had thought many times of facing not only the tops but especially the bass towards the wall as the best bass for me is the bass I hear at the sides and back of the subs. Only reason I never tried it was I don't know if doing this would cause any damage to the woofers.
Regarding facing the tops towards the wall I can try that.
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What era EV Eliminator speaker are you talking about?
Pictured is a pair of the original era Ev Eliminators that would give that 70's sound and more
volume than you could stand in a one car garage on top of an SB1000.
The more recent version is what is called a point source box, basically a woofer and a horn
in box with cost ranging from a couple hundred to a few thousand dollars.
Some have suspension points and can used as a "ceiling mounted top".
The newer'ish and now discontinued EV Eliminators have a 60 X 40 horn, not exactly
what you need in a one car garage!
Is this all for party playback music or a band practice PA?
How are you powering processing all of it.
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What era EV Eliminator speaker are you talking about?
Pictured is a pair of the original era Ev Eliminators that would give that 70's sound and more
volume than you could stand in a one car garage on top of an SB1000.
The more recent version is what is called a point source box, basically a woofer and a horn
in box with cost ranging from a couple hundred to a few thousand dollars.
Some have suspension points and can used as a "ceiling mounted top".
The newer'ish and now discontinued EV Eliminators have a 60 X 40 horn, not exactly
what you need in a one car garage!
Is this all for party playback music or a band practice PA?
How are you powering processing all of it.
I have the newer Eliminator i series which are very heavy and powerful
https://av.loyola.com/products/audio/ev-eliminator-i.html
powered with a Crown 3600, DBX 2231 EQ and Ashly XR 1001 crossover.
Just mp3 playback when I or us here are hanging out.
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... too harsh ... tried ... equalize ... not much improvement ... analog and non-powered ... 70s ... so looking for something with warm mids and highs ...
Find a Klipsch Heresy. Good "Old School" sound.
My $.02
Ceiling mount? ???
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Ok guys, so I now that I have my bass settled I need to do something about my Tops. I am currently using a pair of EV Eliminator i speakers but being on top of my EAW SB1000 sub in my small one car garage is close and too harsh for my ears. No matter how I tried to equalize them not much improvement.
So I want to try a ceiling mounted top like a line array but need something analog and non-powered to try to maintain that analog tone. I can't remember line array speakers being around in the 70s so looking for something with warm mids and highs.
I was thinking of trying maybe a Community Top but was told that those usually tend to be very loud and harsh so any recommendations please?
Your boxes use the DH2010a driver on a larger 60x40 horn. Some people may not like that particular combination, but I have had plenty of success over many years with that particular component.
Make sure they are actually working correctly and there hasn't been any damage to the diaphragms or passive crossover.
Bi-amping can also improve things as well as reveal any issues.
My inventory of stick-mount speakers for smaller jobs use very similar components and I still get many compliments on the clarity, smoothness and accuracy of my product and the speaker boxes themselves are probably over 30 years old (cones and diaphragms are way more recent of course)
Are you sur you're "EQ"-ing them properly? Perhaps you don't like the more narrow directivity?
Most smaller "affordable" line arrays are very wide and have quite a number of tweeter-like devices with quite a bit of that interference between devices that Ivan mentioned.
-could be your looking for that large "hi-fi" speaker type tone? cone midrange with direct radiating tweeters? (they tend to not last as long with microphones though)
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What era EV Eliminator speaker are you talking about?
Pictured is a pair of the original era Ev Eliminators that would give that 70's sound and more
volume than you could stand in a one car garage on top of an SB1000.
The more recent version is what is called a point source box, basically a woofer and a horn
in box with cost ranging from a couple hundred to a few thousand dollars.
Some have suspension points and can used as a "ceiling mounted top".
The newer'ish and now discontinued EV Eliminators have a 60 X 40 horn, not exactly
what you need in a one car garage!
Is this all for party playback music or a band practice PA?
How are you powering processing all of it.
Here's my first "real" PA.
8 home built eliminators (using EV build plans) and a couple of 2441's on Community BHR90 horns. Bi-amped, 150W per bottom, 200 w per top. I think I crossed it just under 1K.
Amp rack ran on a single 15A circuit. Efficient, bulky, and heavy.
System eventually reached 12 eliminators, and 4 horns.
That was a LOT of sawdust. 3 4x8 built 2 boxes....
That system made me a ton of money.
Chris.
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Here's my first "real" PA.
8 home built eliminators (using EV build plans) and a couple of 2441's on Community BHR90 horns. Bi-amped, 150W per bottom, 200 w per top. I think I crossed it just under 1K.
Amp rack ran on a single 15A circuit. Efficient, bulky, and heavy.
System eventually reached 12 eliminators, and 4 horns.
That was a LOT of sawdust. 3 4x8 built 2 boxes....
That system made me a ton of money.
Chris.
No pics that I can find... but each side of my first 'real' PA was Community RH-90 w/Renkus-Heinz HF, Community M-80 (a mid-bass repurposed as a mid horn) with a JBL "I don't remember the number" 12", Community 4896 bass-ish horn loaded with an EVM15L, and 3 reflex loaded 18" subs that used a variety of transducers. Lots of sawdust in that rig, for sure.
It was a good sounding rig for the day, and I still have the RH-90s and M-80s in storage. The 4896s got left in Wyoming following an epic transportation failure and I wasn't able to retrieve them. I think I still have a pair of the sub cabs, empty. Maybe resurrecting this rig from the remains and some modern DSP amps will be my hobby project down the line. Big horns make me smile.
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I have an old computer speaker set inmy garage and thats plenty for me.
We used to call them "Humiliators" when I worked for the university. Those things are nasty.
OP, I'm not sure what you are after for this garage system, but you should look for some Yamaha ClubV's. That'll sort you out right quick. There's more crappy bar band history in a set of Yammy's than in ten other systems combined.....
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Here's my first "real" PA.
8 home built eliminators (using EV build plans) and a couple of 2441's on Community BHR90 horns. Bi-amped, 150W per bottom, 200 w per top. I think I crossed it just under 1K.
Amp rack ran on a single 15A circuit. Efficient, bulky, and heavy.
System eventually reached 12 eliminators, and 4 horns.
That was a LOT of sawdust. 3 4x8 built 2 boxes....
That system made me a ton of money.
Chris.
AB International Precedents were good solid amps.
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OP, I'm not sure what you are after for this garage system, but you should look for some Yamaha ClubV's.
And they make flyable versions for your "ceiling mounted" desires. We flew a pair of C112VAs for an ultra-budget school auditorium system powered by a Behringer NU3000DSP. After implementing the Yamaha recommended EQ settings, I was rather impressed for a rig that cost roughly $1k retail.
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Glad you got yours sorted! Can you tell me if yours is ceiling mounted or on top of your sub please?
I had thought many times of facing not only the tops but especially the bass towards the wall as the best bass for me is the bass I hear at the sides and back of the subs. Only reason I never tried it was I don't know if doing this would cause any damage to the woofers.
Regarding facing the tops towards the wall I can try that.
It all depends on your application. I have SH96HO's flown in a permanent installation. I roll out the subs when we do a show. It's a multifunction room so the stage and subs get setup and torn down for each gig.
Facing your subs against the wall doesn't seem right to me. But depending on the room, there may be a small chance of improvement.
Facing the tops backwards doesn't seem like a good idea either. Unless you wand the "Bose" effect of non-directional sound. If the tops are biamped, turn down the volume on the highs and eq the harshness out as best you can.
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AB International Precedents were good solid amps.
and I helped them out a bit.. I had a piece of plywood running vertically at the back of the rack with 2 muffin fans blowing across the heat sinks. Those amps never broke a sweat.
Ya, they weren't anywhere near the price (or weight) of QSC or Crown, but they never let me down.
As time went on, I needed to "compact" and "make pretty" my system. Went with (4) Yorkie EX-1000 and (2) QSC EX-4000.
Decent enough sound. No where near the efficiency or coverage of those old horns.
Less trips to the truck.
Chris.
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Big horns make me smile.
Me too. Front loaded boxes are "Meh" A horn has nice curves. And I beleive that it's the most effecient way to couple a speaker to the air. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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and I helped them out a bit.. I had a piece of plywood running vertically at the back of the rack with 2 muffin fans blowing across the heat sinks. Those amps never broke a sweat.
Ya, they weren't anywhere near the price (or weight) of QSC or Crown, but they never let me down.
As time went on, I needed to "compact" and "make pretty" my system. Went with (4) Yorkie EX-1000 and (2) QSC EX-4000.
Decent enough sound. No where near the efficiency or coverage of those old horns.
Less trips to the truck.
Chris.
I used to think the AB amps were "too good to be true" being lighter, cheaper and more powerful than other amps in their price range. Used them quite a bit myself with no problems.
Only learned why they were cheaper after sending a few out on small tours that flew commercial. Thought the individual shockmount racks I sent them in would suffice, but never under-estimate baggage handling to prove you wrong!
After pouring the parts & pieces out of otherwise pristine anvil racks when the gear came back from tour I realised the corners that had been cut to fit in that price range. Macrotechs and Crest pro amps came back fine and the AB's were non-repairable.
Still used my non-touring ones until newer more powerful amps replaced them and yet they still were sold as good & working used to a theater installation.
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Far as Line Arrays go for a one car Garage, what do you guys think about this vs the EV Eliminator i speakers which I have please?
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/412728-REG/Toa_Electronics_HX_5B_HX5B_Variable_Dispersion_Speaker.html/reviews
TOA is a professional company and you can see the great reviews. I am thinking if I ceiling mount these it should even work for during the summer when I open the Garage door to hear the music in the yard.
I am thinking these specs of the EV's are comparable to the TOA's?
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Run far, and run fast from that faux line array or any line array for your purpose. Find two good used PA tops on CL, power/process them correctly, and enjoy. Lots of passive boxes for sale on CL and FB lately.
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Far as Line Arrays go for a one car Garage, what do you guys think about this vs the EV Eliminator i speakers which I have please?
I am thinking these specs of the EV's are comparable to the TOA's?
TOA does make some decent stuff, and if you want a built in "warm and fuzzy" sound, the HX5B will fit the bill, but it will have about 15 dB less headroom than your Eliminators, the four five inch speakers require over twice the excursion (which they don't have) to keep up to a single 15.
Your Eliminators should be good sounding speakers if they are in decent shape, but for playback you may want to knock their flat top end back by 10 dB or more (the TOA are already -10dB at 20kHz ::)) to avoid the "harsh" sound you complained about, though you still need to get the horn well above ear height, sitting on top of the sub won't get it, pole mount or fly them.
Art
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You really don't need a "line array". Any old speaker will do if you just hang them in a line. "Line array" is just marketing that let's us charge more to the dumb clients.
(https://i.imgur.com/9oWpzaQ.jpg)
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You really don't need a "line array". Any old speaker will do if you just hang them in a line. "Line array" is just marketing that let's us charge more to the dumb clients.
(https://i.imgur.com/9oWpzaQ.jpg)
Thanks guys. Yes, I think maybe I should simply get an empty cab to place on top of the SB1000 then put the EV's on top of those.
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Thanks guys. Yes, I think maybe I should simply get an empty cab to place on top of the SB1000 then put the EV's on top of those.
That is generally NOT a good idea.
The empty cabinet will resonate at certain freq, and that will tend to "suck out" those freq.
A simple frame that is open on all sides would work better
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That is generally NOT a good idea.
The empty cabinet will resonate at certain freq, and that will tend to "suck out" those freq.
A simple frame that is open on all sides would work better
If your subs or tops don't have pole cups, they are readily available on line.
A length of 1 1/2" EMT and a hack saw and you can put them at whatever height you want.
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If your subs or tops don't have pole cups, they are readily available on line.
A length of 1 1/2" EMT and a hack saw and you can put them at whatever height you want.
Add a set of Nimrod Weber's Tilters to the top, and you're good to go.
Chris.
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If you think that TOA product is a "line array", I have the deed to the Grand Canyon and will sell it for the same price as two of those "line arrays". Read the white papers from Dr. Christian Heil, the father of the modern "line array". He started the whole thing. As with the above images of QSC K series (I think) hung in a vertical line, just hanging speakers in a line does not make them work as a line array. If the "line" isn't at least 6 or 8 feel long, and adhere to the principles stated by Dr. Heil, it will not act as a line array. Olsen described a "line source" and it's properties 80 years ago but stated it would have infinite length. None of cabinets that are marketed as "line arrays" that have 15 to 20 degree "segments" and latch or bolt together are line arrays or line sources. The remain point sources or point and shoot cabinets.
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If you think that TOA product is a "line array", I have the deed to the Grand Canyon and will sell it for the same price as two of those "line arrays". Read the white papers from Dr. Christian Heil, the father of the modern "line array". He started the whole thing. As with the above images of QSC K series (I think) hung in a vertical line, just hanging speakers in a line does not make them work as a line array. If the "line" isn't at least 6 or 8 feel long, and adhere to the principles stated by Dr. Heil, it will not act as a line array. Olsen described a "line source" and it's properties 80 years ago but stated it would have infinite length. None of cabinets that are marketed as "line arrays" that have 15 to 20 degree "segments" and latch or bolt together are line arrays or line sources. The remain point sources or point and shoot cabinets.
Shhhhhhh.
Stop giving away our secrets!
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Add a set of Nimrod Weber's Tilters to the top, and you're good to go.
Chris.
No,NO, mine! >:(
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No,NO, mine! >:(
yes, let's not forget Dave's tilters that are also excellent!
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No,NO, mine! >:(
Ooops, sorry Dave.
As someone that has never owned a pole-mounted speaker, I completely forgot about your fine handiwork.
I have seen the pictures, and can appreciate the design and engineering that went into them.
Got a Turbo Blue anodization yet? 8)
Chris.
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Add a set of Nimrod Weber's Tilters to the top, and you're good to go. Chris.
YES, that's a great idea, thanks!!
Doing a search for this I came across a pic of it in this thread:
https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=140040.0
but the sb1000 doesn't have a pole mount so what exactly can I get or improvise with please? Or maybe get a wall mount apparatus which can handle the weight of the EV's like this but with a tilt version?
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_869SPKWM/Gator-Frameworks-Wall-mount-Speaker-Stands.html
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yes, let's not forget Dave's tilters that are also excellent!
+1
Another happy Stagehand Systems tilter user here. Excellent build quality and value. Thanks, Dave!
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YES, that's a great idea, thanks!!
Doing a search for this I came across a pic of it in this thread:
https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=140040.0
but the sb1000 doesn't have a pole mount so what exactly can I get or improvise with please? Or maybe get a wall mount apparatus which can handle the weight of the EV's like this but with a tilt version?
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_869SPKWM/Gator-Frameworks-Wall-mount-Speaker-Stands.html
Get yourself one of these:
https://www.k-m.de/en/products/speaker-lighting-and-monitor-stands-and-holders/speaker-wall-mounts/24110-speaker-wall-mount-black?c=190
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but the sb1000 doesn't have a pole mount so what exactly can I get or improvise with please? Or maybe get a wall mount apparatus which can handle the weight of the EV's like this but with a tilt version?
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_869SPKWM/Gator-Frameworks-Wall-mount-Speaker-Stands.html
Mike,
The wall mount speaker stands are good, have the built in down angle adjustment for less $$ than balanced tilters.
If you can get by without the down tilt, a set of top hats and poles will "get er done" for under $20 from Parts Express. Requires drilling some holes into the subs, need some mounting screws and T-nuts too, and a jig saw or hole saw, and vacuum cleaner...
Art
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Get yourself one of these:
https://www.k-m.de/en/products/speaker-lighting-and-monitor-stands-and-holders/speaker-wall-mounts/24110-speaker-wall-mount-black?c=190
Yes, that should solve everything thank you! The EV's weight is 35kg and the max load for that wall mount is 50kg. Will look into the cost.