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Title: Drums
Post by: Curtis McGill on February 14, 2021, 05:44:01 PM
We are currently considering the best way to enclose our drums and how to mic them. A picture is included. We have 11 channels that pick up drum sounds on our stage. Only four of them are supposed to. We currently use Audix mics on our kick, snare, and toms (2). Our drummer plays with reasonable care using hot rods. Our worship center is 36' wide and ~50' deep. Our platform is 17-20í deep and 25-36í wide, depending on the location. We try to keep our volume ~90 dBC, peaking ~95. We live stream our full service. What suggestions do you have to clean up and control the percussion sound?

Thank you!
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 15, 2021, 01:30:02 AM
For as small as your space is......a good set of electronic drums, simple, controllable, done.

Yea they may not sound exactly just like a Yamaha Recording Custom set but no one in the congregation will care, but they will notice the volume is under control and consistent.

Putting up any standard drum shield would help mic bleed a little, maybe, but the drums are still going to spill into the room.
I don't think you want to build a big iso booth on your stage.

Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Keith Broughton on February 15, 2021, 06:10:28 AM
Considering the room looks like a lot of hard surfaces. with only the carpet to absorb sound, I would go with Mikes suggestion of electronic drums.
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Matthias McCready on February 15, 2021, 10:39:18 AM
I would probably not go with an e-kit in your situation (answer the following questions below). The cymbals never sound like real cymbals; nor do they feel it. Someday that may change, but that hasn't happened yet. Most I have encountered do not sound great, and as a former drummer, they usually feel awful as they mostly disregard stick technique and dynamics. To the point, it can be hard to attract better players with an e-kit.

An e-kit is not a terrible option, however, a quality one will cost as much or more than an enclosure. In that mindset what is the way you want to go?

For enclosures, I would strongly consider purchasing a pre-built one.

In a sanctuary your size, you will need to fully enclose the kit (unless you have a very good paid drummer). A simple shield won't do you any favors.

I have seen several stabs at homemade enclosures at many budget points with various levels on construction ability, while some of them have done the job of isolating and from the room or even look nice I have yet to find one that sounds good inside; ie the miced kit will not sound good.

Avoid the brand Clearsonic like the plague. They are overpriced and sound awful; their products also do not hold up well. Their enclosures do NOT sound good inside.

For enclosures check out Drum-Perfect or Perdue Acoustics. I currently own a drum-perfect enclosure, and it sounds phenomenal inside. If you are interested I can send you some multi-tracks from it. To the point, $3,000 overheads sound like $3,000 overheads in it. When a drummer is using some expensive hand-hammered cymbals and a Ludwig Black Beauty snare, and you can tell.

---
Some other factors for real drums are:

1) What current mics do you have? Are they Audix D series (great mics that should be kept)? Or are they Audix F Series (which are rubbish and should only be used as paperweights)?
2) Do you have budget for overheads? You will need some if you enclose the drums.
3) Do you have IEM's? The drummer will need some sort if headphone amp at minimum. Wedges in enclosures are a recipe for very bad hearing loss.
4) What kind of console do you have? Does it have compressors? Can you dedicate 5-9 channels for drums?
5) Do you have any skilled drummers or anyone on the horizon? If not a great miced kit is just putting pearls on swine. An E-kit would be fine.
6) Do you have budget for quality drum heads, do you have someone who is good at tuning? Good heads are expensive, and tuning is an art in itself.
7) Is your kit worth micing? While head choice and tuning make a larger difference than the brand of kit; drum construction does matter some. Especially snare, usually a great snare is not the one that came with the kit.
8 ) What cymbals do you have? If they are ZBT's or B8's or something similar they are not worth micing.

Yes, this can be an expensive game to be in.

A good kit can be the following (before we get to mics)
-$1,500-3,000 for a good shell pack (kick and toms)
-$1,000-2,000 for good hardware (Roc-n-soc throne, DW heavy duty hardware and kick pedal, Tama hat stand)
-$300-800 for a quality snare
-$200-300 for good heads
-$500-1500 for good cymbals (presuming hats, 1x crash, and ride). K custom, or byzance are typical options for churches in my area.

Mics kinda depend, but that can get expensive.

The typical setup I mix with is something similar to the following:
Audix D6 (Kick), Shure Beta 91 (Kick), SE V7 or  Shure Beta 57 (snare top), Senn 906 or Shure SM81 (Snare bottom), Sm57 (Hats), Senn e604 or Senn 421 (toms), and Shure KSM 32 or Neumann TLM 193 (overheads).

Obviously, you don't need that many mics, but you do want quality mics. Quality doesn't mean expensive such as an SM57 or a D6.

For a basic setup you could add some overheads, use a 57 or i5 for snare top, use a D6, and if you have cheaper mics for toms that is probably ok.

---
For drummers the way I see it

1) You can a drummer who plays in time, to the click.
2) You can have a drummer who knows and can play the song parts
3) You can have a drummer who has great feel.
4) You can have a drummer who plays dynamically to the room.

Do I know drummers who can do all of the above? Yes, but they are rarely church players, and they are never free. In that drummers in the church are usually volunteer and less skilled I find it reasonable to spend some money eliminating 4 from being a problem. If you eliminate 4, and the drummer can figure out 1 and 2, you are in the ballpark.
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 15, 2021, 11:20:03 AM
In your set up and many others the compromises made buy using an e drum kit are far out weighted by the consistency in sound and volume and nobody in the congregation will notice the difference in the actual drum sound.

You will need to spend upwards to $3000 plus to get a e drum kit that does not sound
like a toy.
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Geert Friedhof on February 15, 2021, 01:28:43 PM
... as they mostly disregard stick technique and dynamics. ...

Same can be said about most drummers.  ;D
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Erik Jerde on February 15, 2021, 03:05:04 PM
Same can be said about most drummers.  ;D

And a lot of pro paid drummers canít play to a room too.  Had a pro toured-the-world in arenas dummer play a wedding once.  He could only hit the snare one way - hard like an arena rock show.  I ended up using a shield to throw the sound up and across the ceiling keeping it mostly out of the vocal mics.  It can rattling back off the back wall (1k cap sanctuary) a moment later but that was manageable.  No need for snare verb!  I was thankful he wasnít my regular guy.  My regular guy didnít have the resume but he could play the room and that was golden.
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Dave Pluke on February 15, 2021, 03:05:22 PM
What suggestions do you have to clean up and control the percussion sound?

Beyond a quieter drummer, a full booth (with dampening on its ceiling) may be the only way to go if you need to stay on acoustic drums. This would block the screen in its current location, so you may have to scoot the set over toward the corner. That's a tough layout.

Are your other mics supercardioid? Are you utilizing Gates?

Dave
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Curtis McGill on February 15, 2021, 05:51:34 PM
It is definitely a rough space, not designed for what we do.

We would prefer not to use an e-kit.

We are open to an enclosure as long as we can move it around. We are looking at moving it to the corner of the stage if we do so.

Audix D series mics

We have a budget for the enclosure and a pair of reasonably priced overheads.

X32 Compact, P16, and plenty of channels.

I have a drummer who says he knows how to tune a kit and I have no reason to doubt him, but I have no knowledge yet of what it takes.

Kit quality could probably be upgraded in due time. The cymbals are not good (I don't know what brand) and I don't know about the snare.

Our drummers easily play with a click, can play parts within reason and/or create their own. They tend to have a good feel and one of them is definitely more willing to play to the room than the other. Ongoing discussions...

Vocal mics are e835 and we aren't using gates because I don't know how to implement them. Learning...

Our piano mic, an AT something, picks up a lot as well and hardly needs to be amplified in the room. Mostly for the live stream.



Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Brian Jojade on February 15, 2021, 07:30:19 PM
The bases seem pretty covered here.  The issue is that the drums are too loud causing bleed into everything.  Sometimes, the case is that even with the PA turned off, the drums are too loud.  With that, there's not a single thing that can be done with the PA that would fix the problem, though we may get asked to...

There are 3 essential solutions, and all of them are different variants of making the drum kit quieter.  1. Get the drummer to play quieter.  Some drummers can, others, well, move on to the next steps.  2. Acoustically isolate the drums. This typically means a physical barrier between drummer and everything else.  There's a reason that in studios, there's often a separate room just for drums.  3. Get drums that don't make noise.  Electric drums are awesome for this scenario, of course with the loss of that 'live' drum feel.  They do, however, give you the absolute best control on the overall volume if you want to be in the same room.
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 15, 2021, 07:46:05 PM
On your smaller stage and smaller overall space a full drum iso booth is going to stick out like a sore thumb, at least I think it would.

You mentioned vocal mic and using gates, do not gate the vocal mics, it's a fine line to find a gate thershold that will close off the drums and yet let the vocals through, actually it can be a moving target that is hard to hit unless all your vocalist sign loud and always directly on mic.

E drums and call it done, it looks like just about everyone is on IEM's so you already have that going for you.
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Matthias McCready on February 15, 2021, 10:59:42 PM
It is definitely a rough space, not designed for what we do.

We would prefer not to use an e-kit.

We are open to an enclosure as long as we can move it around. We are looking at moving it to the corner of the stage if we do so.

Audix D series mics

We have a budget for the enclosure and a pair of reasonably priced overheads.

X32 Compact, P16, and plenty of channels.

I have a drummer who says he knows how to tune a kit and I have no reason to doubt him, but I have no knowledge yet of what it takes.

Kit quality could probably be upgraded in due time. The cymbals are not good (I don't know what brand) and I don't know about the snare.

Our drummers easily play with a click, can play parts within reason and/or create their own. They tend to have a good feel and one of them is definitely more willing to play to the room than the other. Ongoing discussions...


Good to see that you have some nice mics, those will be a good starting point.

What type of kit do you have now?

Most kits can be made to sound decent, but having something better than not will be helpful.

If you are not already aware, used is absolutely fine for drums. There are lots of good brands, there are different tiers of kits to them. You may be able to find a great deal on an upper-tier kit that is a few years old, but not old enough to be "vintage." As long as the shells are intact (no cracks) and the hardware is working (not that it is hard to find or replace) then the most a drum should need the bearing edges sanded (if they are inconsistent) and some new heads. Honestly even brand new kits need the bearing edges sanded sometimes!

Note if you are willing to go for a kit that is not a current vogue color/design, you can probably find an amazing deal. For example, a little over a decade back custom drum shops got tons of orders for crazy colors, orange, neon green, etc. Heck, I even found a kit with Spam wrap (yes the canned meat!). Right now a natural look is the craze, although it would probably be something else soon.

A note on custom kits (smaller brands) they can be great, or not. The church I work at uses a particular custom brand that is built locally. They are nice sounding drums, but they are VERY difficult to tune; to the point, they can sound worse than certain other brands if someone is not diligent.

As far as brands go you should check out Yamaha. Are they the best kits out there? No. But they do make great drums, and used they can be affordable. If you wait on Reverb long enough you can probably find a nice deal on Absolute Custom or something similar.


I am not sure what type of music your church plays however a trick for you in making a drum enclosure work is actually using a slightly smaller kick drum. A 20" properly miced can be just as beefy sounding as a 22" can, and it allows the for the tom(s) to be lower.


For most music you will want 16" tom for a floor tom; however a 14" can be tuned fairly low; although you will probably need to replace the head a lot more with it being played tuned down that far.


As far as heads go batter heads (the side that gets hit) should be replaced fairly regularly, depending on how often the kit is played. I would recommend at least every 6 months, but some places do it every few weeks. It kind of depends on how much the drums are used and how much wear they exhibit. Resonant do not need to be replaced as often, I would recommend having something better than stock heads.

To the point of heads. consistency is really important. You will probably find that a certain tuning fits your needs best, this tuning will be affected by:
Genre
Iso-booth Acoustics
Mic choice and placement
Overall room

Note that some tuning choices and even cymbal choices don't feel good at the drummer's perspective, but feel great miced. This is a little counterintuitive, and for what it is worth is still expensive/quality gear.

I highly recommend that Youtube channel "Sounds Like a Drum" it is a very cool resource that I wish I had when I was playing.  They really dive into lots of different ways to tune.

Once you find a head that works for your tuning I would recommend buying several. I know some churches that have a stack of 20 new snare heads awaiting deployment!

Personally, I am a big Aquarian fan. I love the sound of an Aquarian Super Kick II (batter) and one of their Regulator heads (resonant). It is a one-trick pony to how a kick should sound. About $80ish for their pair, but is worth it.

Also, check out a Zoro beater. They make a huge difference in the kick sound and yield lots of nice top end attack. They are about $30.

--
At some point, I would recommend getting a nicer snare. A Mapex brass cat or black panther; or a Ludwig black beauty are common choices in my circles.

--

Not sure what type of music your church plays, but if it is any of the more "modern" stuff. That is very focused on deep snare drums and very large dark sounding cymbals. Hats are often 15"-18" (usually made using crash cymbals) and 20" crashes and 22" rides. Expensive stuff as it usually hand-hammered. Remember that cymbals will crack, especially quickly with some drummers. Some churches find it is better to have drummers bring their own cymbals, others like the consistency of having a house set. Just realize they could be a yearly expense of $1500 if you have hard hitters.

As far as brands go Meinl, Zildjian, and Instanbul are common. Paiste sound fantastic, but anecdotally they crack quicker than most other brands).

Keep in mind that if a cymbal is hand-hammered that each cymbal will sound different and have a unique voicing. A good drum shop will have a whole wall of the good stuff. Even if a cymbal is a good brand and from an expensive series doesn't guarantee it is the one you want.

If you are on the hunt for inexpensive cymbals I have been quite impressed with the Instanbul XIST series for the money. For the price they are fantastic. If a local drum store carries them, have your drummer check them out.









Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 15, 2021, 11:31:10 PM
Electronic kits mostly suck. No matter what you do, in that room with that volume level you'll still hear the drummer, but it will sound like a 10 year old beating a bunch of cardboard boxes. E kits aren't all that quiet when you are still close to them. thud thud thud thud thud is what it will sound like.


Go for a drum booth. There are dozens of different styles. You can use your current drum kit, which you are familiar with and the drummer can hit harder and use regular sticks. It will sound better all around.

link (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/518135-REG/ClearSonic_MINIMEGA_MiniMega_Isolation_Package_Dark.html/?ap=y&ap=y&smp=y&smp=y&lsft=BI%3A514&gclid=Cj0KCQiA1KiBBhCcARIsAPWqoSqpjfOQBqLD6ATlYezfROP2PTCp8AdHPcOAGBED3EqChxULFzTikwsaAkzOEALw_wcB)
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on February 16, 2021, 12:09:19 AM
I have tweaked a Roland V-Drum set and got it to sound very good. I didn't like the out of the box sound. It is not cheap but if you know how to set it up properly it can be a really good alternative in a room like this. I can give a lot more detail as to my thought about this if you want. But it is late and I am tired now. 
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 16, 2021, 02:56:47 AM
It is definitely a rough space, not designed for what we do.

We would prefer not to use an e-kit.

We are open to an enclosure as long as we can move it around. We are looking at moving it to the corner of the stage if we do so.

Audix D series mics

We have a budget for the enclosure and a pair of reasonably priced overheads.

X32 Compact, P16, and plenty of channels.

I have a drummer who says he knows how to tune a kit and I have no reason to doubt him, but I have no knowledge yet of what it takes.

Kit quality could probably be upgraded in due time. The cymbals are not good (I don't know what brand) and I don't know about the snare.

Our drummers easily play with a click, can play parts within reason and/or create their own. They tend to have a good feel and one of them is definitely more willing to play to the room than the other. Ongoing discussions...

Vocal mics are e835 and we aren't using gates because I don't know how to implement them. Learning...

Our piano mic, an AT something, picks up a lot as well and hardly needs to be amplified in the room. Mostly for the live stream.


What is the reasoning for not wanting an e-kit?  This is a case of the needs of the church need to step in front of the musicians or even the crew.  Do you really have a drummer so talented that he can't do what is needed for a worship service without "real" drums?  I have worked with a lot of worship bands and even ones with hired guns just aren't on that kind of level.  People come to church to get closer to their deity, not decompose the performance of the musicians.   
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: John L Nobile on February 16, 2021, 12:56:24 PM
I had the displeasure of mixing VDrums for 3 years. They replaced a beautiful Yamaha kit. Same drummer. We both hated it but the producer demanded them.

Went back to the Yamaha kit. Drummer used softer sticks and put a drape in front of the snare. Louder than the VDrums but the sound and feel were night and day. 

I've noticed that the choice of sticks makes a big difference in volume.
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Mike Caldwell on February 16, 2021, 02:51:24 PM
I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that an acoustic drum kit has the feel and sound we all like to either play or mix.

In situations like Curtis's church there are other factors that out weight the feel and sound for lack of a better word "convenience" of a good e drum kit.
Yea the drummer may grumble, the sound person will say the ride cymbal bell doesn't sound right or the snare doesn't have the same crack to it but no one in the congregation will care all the while they're having a better worship experience because of controlled volume resulting in a better overall mix.


Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Matthias McCready on February 16, 2021, 07:59:10 PM
I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that an acoustic drum kit has the feel and sound we all like to either play or mix.

In situations like Curtis's church there are other factors that out weight the feel and sound for lack of a better word "convenience" of a good e drum kit.
Yea the drummer may grumble, the sound person will say the ride cymbal bell doesn't sound right or the snare doesn't have the same crack to it but no one in the congregation will care all the while they're having a better worship experience because of controlled volume resulting in a better overall mix.

Getting slightly off-topic I am very curious about creating a better E-kit.

Most E-Drum sets are pretty bleh (granted I haven't played many in the last 6 years, but I would guess there a no huge changes).
They have lots of included kits (sounds), a few of which are great/useful, but many of which are unnecessary. To the point they don't usually come close to having a real miced kit.

I know there certain mesh pads/heads which feel not terrible to pretty good.

Cymbals have been a problem, I was very excited when Zildjian the Gen 16 cymbals came out. To a stick, they feel like a real cymbal, and acoustically they sound like a cymbal, albeit quiet and not that great. The sampling on those is truly horrible.

I know on the studio side that drums have come a long way. For example, the addictive drum software even has some, dare I say it, decent-sounding cymbals in it! About any of their stock drums are a good starting point from the perspective of "live guy."  ;)  ;D

Many tours are using sampled snare's etc these days.

So I would be curious about building a kit utilizing the Gen-16 cymbals and the preferred brand of mesh heads, which would all be input in as triggers into a DAW which would send out individual outputs (maybe utilizing Dante Virtual Soundcard?).

The way I see it:

1. It would feel good to play
2. It would sound fantastic (most churches don't have a great kit, don't replace heads often enough, and don't know their tuning game).
3. It would make for a happy engineer as they have access to each channel, just like a real miced kit.
4. It would be quite
5. It would probably would not be more cost-prohibitive than a real kit and mics.
6. While the computer would need to be replaced every few years, so do cymbals and heads...

Cons:
1. Relying on a computer, probably would want a redundant backup rig with automatic switching (1k pilot tone?).
2. Latency?
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Curtis McGill on February 17, 2021, 06:57:26 AM
One of our drummers has a fully isolated ClearSonic enclosure so we are going to try that first. What is different about ClearSonic and other brands that have been recommended?

If we enclose the drums should we use SDC or LDC for overheads since we have the Audix mics on the kick, snare, and both toms?

Sonically, I think it would clear up the sound. Aesthetically, it not be pleasing.

We will make other upgrades to the kit over time.

As far as e-drums go: we are not under pressure because of our volume so this is a step up (if all goes well). No one, that would care, wants e-drums. We are in a win-win situation where everyone is relatively on the same page.

Great feedback! Thank you.
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Steve M Smith on February 17, 2021, 08:07:39 AM
Mute the drum mics. You might not need them.


Steve.
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Matthias McCready on February 17, 2021, 10:19:19 AM
One of our drummers has a fully isolated ClearSonic enclosure so we are going to try that first. What is different about ClearSonic and other brands that have been recommended?

If we enclose the drums should we use SDC or LDC for overheads since we have the Audix mics on the kick, snare, and both toms?

Sonically, I think it would clear up the sound. Aesthetically, it not be pleasing.


Why I REALLY dislike clearsonic:

1. It doesn't sound great inside. The absorption isn't that thick, and the acoustics are rubbish. Even with good mics and a good kit, it is hard to get it to sound good. Think weird resonant frequencies in your kick mic that would not be there normally. Think that your snare mic is picking up weird cymbal frequencies that would not be there without an enclosure. Think that the snare is really hard to tune inside the enclosure, but a great tuning from outside doesn't translate.
2. Clearsonic enclosures are not very structurally solid. Ie they are constantly falling apart a little bit. I have seen one collapse on a drummer more than once! I have also never worked with one that an a real door, so either it was open (LOUD) or the drummer was having to open and close a panel (risking collpase each time). This is happening increasingly as they age due to 3.
3. The absorption material disintegrates over time; Which means that the wall panels essentially become like big heavy soft old nasty pillows. This doesn't do much for your sound, and it has close to zero structural integrity. Essentially if you want a nice structure you are going need to build a plywood structure yourself, which for the price does not make sense.
4. The Clearsonic plexi attachments are a bear. Ie if your plexi comes out, have fun putting them back together. I have probably spent 20 hours wrestling with their plexi over the years.  :o

---

For those reasons even if they asked $1,600 for their product new it would be too much IMO.  ???

---

My favorite brand of enclosure I have used is Drumperfect (although I have heard good things about perdue).

Please note due to COVID the plexi they use is hard to get, so their enclosures look a little weird at the moment (windows instead of full panels). You could probably reach out to Chris at Drumperfect to see when manufacturing will be back to normal. 

Why do I like using it?:

1. Acoustically inside it feels fantastic, it is a nice dead space. Drum tuning carries over from outside the enclosure to inside. No weird resonant frequencies. Simply put the stuff sounds like it should. (again if you want some multitrack from inside this shoot me a PM)
2. The panels have an absorptive layer, and then an isolating hard layer (read wood). They are very strong, to the point you could put cinder blocks on the roof of this thing. If you get their clamps you can make it a semi-permanent structure. The enclosure also has a dedicated door (no maneuvering panels!).
3. My Drum perfect is by no means no, and I have had zero problems with panels. They are like new.
4. I have used my enclosure for small mobile events. It goes together quite quickly, in about 3-5 minutes if you know what shape you are doing.

They are about the same price.

---

As far as condensers go I would think less of it as LDC for SDC. but more about what mics you want to use.

Although SM81's are one of my least favorite overheads I would recommend those if your budget is smaller, as they are great all purpose mic for down the road (ie you can get nicer overheads in three years, and then you have the SM81's for snare bottom, crowd mics, banjo, acoustic, or whatever else).

My personal favorite mics tend to be cost-prohibitive (SCX 25 or TLM 193), however, I have been very impressed with the Shure KSM32's. I work with them a lot right now, and they are a great mic. To the point when I did a shootout at work with MANY overheads, I actually liked them more than our 414's.

So if you can swing it those are great mic' ultimately I know there are many threads on that one, and you will find many opinions!  ;D
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 17, 2021, 02:10:26 PM
Do you have some old, unused choir mics (literally) hanging around? Thats what I used in our drum booth. I just hung them from the ceiling and you canít see them from the audience. Sound quality is actually pretty awesome too. Enough that I donít feel the need to upgrade.
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Nils Erickson on February 17, 2021, 02:14:14 PM
Mute the drum mics. You might not need them.


Steve.

This, and thank you Steve.  If the drums are too loud, don't mic them.  If they are still too loud, talk to the player; explain the complaints from the congregation.  If then they are still too loud, mitigate with baffles, mutes, etc.  The drummer in my band tapes his wallet on his snare, that even helps.  Put a towel over it.

"Sound reinforcement", a concept very easily forgotten.  Three pages go by before someone mentions this, sheesh.
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Curtis McGill on February 17, 2021, 02:59:56 PM
If I didn't have the mics on for the drums how would I set up the board for

A) the live stream? I presume pre-fade

B) the P16 send for the band?

The problem that doesn't solve though is the bleed into the mics - also mentioned a few pages back.

Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on February 17, 2021, 04:33:21 PM
If I didn't have the mics on for the drums how would I set up the board for

A) the live stream? I presume pre-fade

B) the P16 send for the band?

The problem that doesn't solve though is the bleed into the mics - also mentioned a few pages back.

You mention P16 sends so I assume that you are using an X32 or M32 console. You can use a Mix bus send and send that to a Matrix output and don't assign the drum mics to the L/R. And you can use a Mix Bus send (or 2) for all or part of your streaming mix and only send to the matrix what you want in the streaming feed. 
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 17, 2021, 06:31:25 PM
If I didn't have the mics on for the drums how would I set up the board for

A) the live stream? I presume pre-fade

B) the P16 send for the band?

The problem that doesn't solve though is the bleed into the mics - also mentioned a few pages back.

Yeah, people tend to forget about the 3-4 other things those mics are needed for.

I would try to find, rent, borrow a drum booth. Listen to the major audible benefits, then have the discussion about how you can implement it visually. It's not that bad. Yes, it's a big box on the stage, but the benefits far outweigh the downsides and you'll get used to the look real fast.
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Nils Erickson on February 17, 2021, 07:28:52 PM
If I didn't have the mics on for the drums how would I set up the board for

A) the live stream? I presume pre-fade

B) the P16 send for the band?

The problem that doesn't solve though is the bleed into the mics - also mentioned a few pages back.

Yep, set up a mix for the livestream, mixes for people's monitors, and an FOH mix without drums (or using only the drums you need.  As far as the bleed is concerned, there are really only a few solutions: have them play quieter; place them further away or out of the pattern of the mics in question; or isolate with some baffle or booth.  I prefer those options in that order, but that is just me. 

On small stages, virtually every vocal mic becomes a drum mic.  Good luck Curtis!
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Caleb Dueck on February 17, 2021, 09:53:05 PM
One of our drummers has a fully isolated ClearSonic enclosure so we are going to try that first. What is different about ClearSonic and other brands that have been recommended?

The best thing about E-Drums?  They make poor drummers sound 'passable'.
The worst thing about E-Drums?  They make great drummers sound 'passable.' 


Any drum booth, whether pre-made or DIY, is essentially two things -
1) 'Stuff' to stop the sound, and
2) 'Stuff' to absorb the sound inside

To point 1, the thicker the plexi, the elimination of gaps - the more it will keep sound from leaking through.  The Clearsonic kits I've used in the past used fairly thin plexi, with gaps.

To point 2, the more, better, thicker, etc absorption you can add, the better. 

I don't have as much hands-on experience as others, mostly just clearsonic, various DIY, and Perdue.  Perdue was the best pre-made kit I've used.  The absolute best were all DIY, but very well designed and executed.  If you want to message me, I can send photos and info on one.

If you want to build one yourself - make the whole thing on wheels, as it'll be extremely heavy. 
Use thick plexi, with something like stained wood frame, to ensure it's completely sealed and rigid. 
Use plenty of thick absorption inside, flame rated.  Message me for more info on details, what and where to get it, etc.

It's possible to get a good deal better performance from DIY than premade, for lower cost, if you have volunteers willing to put in the work. 
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 18, 2021, 10:54:02 AM
The best thing about E-Drums?  They make poor drummers sound 'passable'.
The worst thing about E-Drums?  They make great drummers sound 'passable.' 


Any drum booth, whether pre-made or DIY, is essentially two things -
1) 'Stuff' to stop the sound, and
2) 'Stuff' to absorb the sound inside

To point 1, the thicker the plexi, the elimination of gaps - the more it will keep sound from leaking through.  The Clearsonic kits I've used in the past used fairly thin plexi, with gaps.

To point 2, the more, better, thicker, etc absorption you can add, the better. 

I don't have as much hands-on experience as others, mostly just clearsonic, various DIY, and Perdue.  Perdue was the best pre-made kit I've used.  The absolute best were all DIY, but very well designed and executed.  If you want to message me, I can send photos and info on one.

If you want to build one yourself - make the whole thing on wheels, as it'll be extremely heavy. 
Use thick plexi, with something like stained wood frame, to ensure it's completely sealed and rigid. 
Use plenty of thick absorption inside, flame rated.  Message me for more info on details, what and where to get it, etc.

It's possible to get a good deal better performance from DIY than premade, for lower cost, if you have volunteers willing to put in the work.

If youíre going this far, donít forget to add in some kind of ventilation. The reason a lot of drum booths have gaps between panels is because they get hot inside. I know we left a gap and put a fan in ours just so the drummer doesnít die in there! Lol.

If you need to really seal it off you could duct in some moving air somehow.
Title: Re: Drums
Post by: John L Nobile on February 18, 2021, 12:49:10 PM
The best thing about E-Drums?  They make poor drummers sound 'passable'.
The worst thing about E-Drums?  They make great drummers sound 'passable.' 
 

Brilliant!