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Title: making a pruchase
Post by: Jason Huntoon on May 28, 2012, 08:20:41 pm
After another gig with faulty equipment we are making a purchase.  We have top of the mark 2000 to spend.  We often play for 350-450 people.  Guitar, Bass, keys and 5 vocals... shoot!
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on May 28, 2012, 08:28:26 pm
After another gig with faulty equipment we are making a purchase.  We have top of the mark 2000 to spend.  We often play for 350-450 people.  Guitar, Bass, keys and 5 vocals... shoot!
I would recommend Beef Brisket, cole slaw, and corn on the cob for everyone. I think you will find that this will greatly improve your event.
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 28, 2012, 08:31:12 pm
I would recommend Beef Brisket, cole slaw, and corn on the cob for everyone. I think you will find that this will greatly improve your event.

Yummy.  Count me in.
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: John Woodfield on May 28, 2012, 08:35:36 pm
I would recommend Beef Brisket, cole slaw, and corn on the cob for everyone. I think you will find that this will greatly improve your event.

I'm good with the Brisket, maybe the cole slaw but the corn kills my low card diet  :P
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 28, 2012, 08:40:00 pm
After another gig with faulty equipment we are making a purchase.  We have top of the mark 2000 to spend.  We often play for 350-450 people.  Guitar, Bass, keys and 5 vocals... shoot!

Lottery tickets......
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 28, 2012, 08:46:44 pm
After another gig with faulty equipment we are making a purchase.  We have top of the mark 2000 to spend.  We often play for 350-450 people.  Guitar, Bass, keys and 5 vocals... shoot!
I suggest using a better tap on the keg.  Plus maybe add some ice next time.
Title: Re: making a purchase
Post by: Mac Kerr on May 28, 2012, 08:51:32 pm
After another gig with faulty equipment we are making a purchase.  We have top of the mark 2000 to spend.  We often play for 350-450 people.  Guitar, Bass, keys and 5 vocals... shoot!

Before you actually buy anything, and before you ask other people for recommendations you need to define what you are trying to accomplish.

You need to decide what parts of your current system can still be use, and how much of the band you need to put through the PA.

Once you have decided these things I'm sure people will know how to answer your question.

Mac
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Lance Richens on May 28, 2012, 08:54:05 pm
Condoms. Condoms for all!!!!
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: John Woodfield on May 28, 2012, 08:54:33 pm
Before you actually buy anything, and before you ask other people for recommendations you need to define what you are trying to accomplish.

You need to decide what parts of your current system can still be use, and how much of the band you need to put through the PA.

Once you have decided these things I'm sure people will know how to answer your question.

Mac

Mac,

You just killed the picnic!
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Jason Huntoon on May 28, 2012, 09:09:15 pm
Before you actually buy anything, and before you ask other people for recommendations you need to define what you are trying to accomplish.

You need to decide what parts of your current system can still be use, and how much of the band you need to put through the PA.

Once you have decided these things I'm sure people will know how to answer your question.

Mac
There are times when we need the whole band (for drums most likely just the kick) through the pa.  For the most part we try to just use the pa for vocals but we do play to some larger crowds.  Our existing system (with the exception) of our mics is shit.  We may use the speakers for monitors and have a monitor amp... we need FOH. speakers (powered or amp) mixing board, sub?  all for under 2 grand that will not quit while we are playing (happens all the time with our Berin... piece of shit
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 28, 2012, 09:25:43 pm
There are times when we need the whole band (for drums most likely just the kick) through the pa.  For the most part we try to just use the pa for vocals but we do play to some larger crowds.  Our existing system (with the exception) of our mics is shit.  We may use the speakers for monitors and have a monitor amp... we need FOH. speakers (powered or amp) mixing board, sub?  all for under 2 grand that will not quit while we are playing (happens all the time with our Berin... piece of shit
OK maybe you are still missing some of the "issues".

Things such as "what are you currently using" would help.

You say you don't like your current sytem-exactly what is causing it to sound that way?

Have you ever thought that it might be YOU (or the band) that has no idea what they are doing and is actually causing the problems?  That is a VERY common problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you are asking for a reliable system-with almost everything-for $2000?  I think you should simply rent until  you save up more money.  2K (especially when you subtract the tax-is NOT very much-for all the gear you are looking for.
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Jason Huntoon on May 28, 2012, 09:37:38 pm
OK maybe you are still missing some of the "issues".

Things such as "what are you currently using" would help.

You say you don't like your current sytem-exactly what is causing it to sound that way?

Have you ever thought that it might be YOU (or the band) that has no idea what they are doing and is actually causing the problems?  That is a VERY common problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So you are asking for a reliable system-with almost everything-for $2000?  I think you should simply rent until  you save up more money.  2K (especially when you subtract the tax-is NOT very much-for all the gear you are looking for.
At first I assumed it was us.  After using this and other forums and our local guru shops, we found that the Behringer pmp2000 we are using is just not what it was billed to be.  It has a myriad of problems internally.  Our speakers are not cutting it either, they are just garbage 15's and its time for us to get something reliable and suits our needs.  Renting around here isn't a very viable option, we'll just leave it at that.  Right now for gigs that are important we are hiring out.  What we need is something we can put the band through without having it shut off.
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: John Woodfield on May 28, 2012, 09:48:46 pm
At first I assumed it was us.  After using this and other forums and our local guru shops, we found that the Behringer pmp2000 we are using is just not what it was billed to be.  It has a myriad of problems internally.  Our speakers are not cutting it either, they are just garbage 15's and its time for us to get something reliable and suits our needs.  Renting around here isn't a very viable option, we'll just leave it at that.  Right now for gigs that are important we are hiring out.  What we need is something we can put the band through without having it shut off.

Lets start with what we know:

You have or are in a band.
You have some "garbage 15's"
You play for medium size groups sometimes around 400-600

Here are the barebone basics of what we need:

Itemize the gear you are currently using (that means makes/models)
How many pieces and of what in regards to the instruments
How many vocals and what mic's are you currently using.
How many monitors and of what type do you want to use - wedge, iem, etc.

You haven't posted enough information for anyone to provide any help.
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 28, 2012, 09:49:55 pm
Our speakers are not cutting it either, they are just garbage 15's and its time for us to get something reliable and suits our needs. 

I'm not familiar with "garbage" brand speakers.  Can you give some specs or link to the garbage website?
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Rick Powell on May 28, 2012, 10:00:45 pm
At first I assumed it was us.  After using this and other forums and our local guru shops, we found that the Behringer pmp2000 we are using is just not what it was billed to be.  It has a myriad of problems internally.  Our speakers are not cutting it either, they are just garbage 15's and its time for us to get something reliable and suits our needs.  Renting around here isn't a very viable option, we'll just leave it at that.  Right now for gigs that are important we are hiring out.  What we need is something we can put the band through without having it shut off.

After years of playing on other people's crap I decided to buy a system and a van to haul it in, so that at least I'd take the equipment's fault out of the equation.  Very little of what I bought was brand new except a PreSonus 1642 mixer that saved me from buying a pile of outboard gear.  I diligently looked for bargains and used pieces in good condition that matched and that got good reviews here.  Used Crown xti amps, used Danley TH 115 subs, a demo set of JTR Triple 8's, four Bag End floor monitors from a guy who wanted to move to more lightweight monitors, and an old AT&T van that had been well maintained and was ready to leave the fleet.  Then all the mics and stands and cords I needed (mostly used, bought here at Marketplace and on ebay), plus some new Blizzard led lights and some used Ultimate stands to hold the lights.  I can cover a crowd of 350 if they're gathered close, and I figure I spent $15,000 or so, give or take a few thousand, to get there.  I would not think of using any less than what I've got, and this is in bargain hunting mode.  I am sure that something halfway adequate could be found for less, but it you are starting out from scratch and only have $2000 to spend, you would literally have to find the bargain of the century in a used equipment sale to cover your needs for that price, IMO. 

Not that I haven't seen it happen.  A guy I know just got a pile of QSC amps given to him from a guy who stripped out a theater.   
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Jason Huntoon on May 28, 2012, 10:03:50 pm
Lets start with what we know:

You have or are in a band.
You have some "garbage 15's"
You play for medium size groups sometimes around 400-600

Here are the barebone basics of what we need:

Itemize the gear you are currently using (that means makes/models)
How many pieces and of what in regards to the instruments
How many vocals and what mic's are you currently using.
How many monitors and of what type do you want to use - wedge, iem, etc.

You haven't posted enough information for anyone to provide any help.
2 Yorkville Performance Series Y115
1 Behringer pmp 2000
3 vocal 58's
2 vocal wireless 58's
1 keyboard direct through key amp
1 guitar through sm57
1 bass guitar direct via bass amp
1 sm57 on bass drum (don't judge its what we have)

Monitor system is all set that's something we don't need covered.
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: John Woodfield on May 28, 2012, 10:15:50 pm
2 Yorkville Performance Series Y115
1 Behringer pmp 2000
3 vocal 58's
2 vocal wireless 58's
1 keyboard direct through key amp
1 guitar through sm57
1 bass guitar direct via bass amp
1 sm57 on bass drum (don't judge its what we have)

Monitor system is all set that's something we don't need covered.

Sounds like you need a decent console, amp and possibly some subs. I would think you could that for $2k...
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Scott Bolt on May 28, 2012, 10:19:16 pm
Jason,

I hear what you are saying; however, you are not going to cover 400-600 people with anything other than background music for 2K.

I regularly play for 100-300 people inside a bar environment.  For that I use a MixWiz (~$650.00 used), 2 JBL PRX618S-XLF's ($2600.00), 2 Yamaha DSR112's ($1600.00),  drum microphones (Sennheiser e609's (4) $400.00), Audix D6 ($250.00), 8 channel compressor/gate ACP88 ($400.00 used), TC Electronics M-One XL ($250.00 used).

I can handle a room of no more than 300 people with this and have concert level rock and roll.

In order to cover 400-600, I think you would be looking at a much more expensive rig than mine.

My recommendations would be for you to purchase a couple of the new Yamaha DXR115's.  These are quite potent without a sub and can be had for ~$1600.00 for a pair.

You should consider a used Allen & Heath mixwiz for ~$650.00.

I know that this puts you over budget, but this system will sound really good, be really reliable, and is light and easy to setup. 

When you have more money, you could get some subs to go with this setup.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Rick Powell on May 28, 2012, 10:19:48 pm
2 Yorkville Performance Series Y115
1 Behringer pmp 2000
3 vocal 58's
2 vocal wireless 58's
1 keyboard direct through key amp
1 guitar through sm57
1 bass guitar direct via bass amp
1 sm57 on bass drum (don't judge its what we have)

Monitor system is all set that's something we don't need covered.

If somehow you could increase your budget, you might find some used QSC powered speakers (like a pair of HPR 122i 12"+horn or 152i 15"+horn tops and a pair of HPR 181i 18" subs) and a used Yamaha 01v mixer (not the 96 model which is newer and more expensive). Figure about $700 apiece for the cabinets if you can find 'em, they don't show up used often; the 01v is all over ebay for $500-600 and has built in efx and dynamics.  And an Audix D6 for your kick drum mic, less than $200 if used and in good condition.  About $3500 for all if you look around.  And I agree, don't mic the kick drum or run bass thru the system without subs, you are doing more harm than good.  A vocals only system can be 2 speakers on sticks, but don't expect to groove 300 or more people without subs.
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: John Woodfield on May 28, 2012, 10:29:29 pm
Seems like the OP has been down this road before:

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,137625.msg1282538.html#msg1282538
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Mario Maric on May 29, 2012, 12:54:38 am
Not to discourage. 2K won't get you much for what you need.
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: duane massey on May 29, 2012, 01:44:27 am
Buy a used Yamaha 16-input mixer ($300 or less), a QSC GX-7, and save up for a better set of speakers (maybe a used set of Yamaha S215 or similar). $2k won't get everything you need, but it will get you started IF you shop carefully. Don't expect anything that will get you a big full sound, especially for over 300+ people.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/yamaha-mg166cx-16-channel-mixer-with-compression-and-effects
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/qsc-gx7-stereo-power-amplifier
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/yamaha-s215v-club-series-v-speaker
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Chris Chambers on May 29, 2012, 06:48:41 am
We could stand around and tak the piss out of your budget all day but here is something helpful. Both are double your budget but they give you some idea of what to be looking for. Check you're local craigs lists and the like for similar deals.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Professional-P-A-System-gig-ready-small-to-large-venues-/120921851225?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c27810559#ht_694wt_1188

http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMPLETE-Gig-ready-PA-System-for-small-to-medium-venues-/140758013063?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c5d4d487#ht_520wt_955

Both systems are only good for like 300 people ish and sound pretty average. To get you're 600 audience covered you're going to need something like $10k atleast-
SRX728 x 2 - $2500
SRX722 x 2 -$3000
2 x QSC PLX3602 (subs) - $2500
2 x QSC RMX2450 (tops) - $1200
1 x A&H MixWiz 16:2 - $900
16:4 snake - $400

10k ish
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Steve Hurt on May 29, 2012, 07:38:15 am
2 Yorkville Performance Series Y115
1 Behringer pmp 2000
3 vocal 58's
2 vocal wireless 58's
1 keyboard direct through key amp
1 guitar through sm57
1 bass guitar direct via bass amp
1 sm57 on bass drum (don't judge its what we have)

Monitor system is all set that's something we don't need covered.

Some ideas

Mixer - Mix Wiz (600-650 used)
Tops -  Pair of Yamaha SV115 speakers ($379 ea used or probably find a pair used for 400)
Tops amp - Get an amp to run them.  Budget 3-400 for that.  Buy used again.
cables - buy what you need if you don't have them.

You'll have some money left over.  Sock it away and start saving for subs and an amp. 
The above will do more than what you had for now.

Don't cheap out on your subs when you buy.  Yorkville LS808 or larger.  (or LS808P)
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Lance Richens on May 29, 2012, 08:25:22 am
Sounds like he needs to take the money & hire someone with a decent system each time they play out.....
Title: Re: making a PURCHASE
Post by: Charlie Zureki on May 29, 2012, 08:38:58 am
  Hello,

   There are some truths that cannot be ignored...

   You cannot get more energy out than you've put in.
   You don't get something out of nothing
   There is no magic "fix" in Audio, either the magic is already there, or, there's no magic.
   People will not respect you, if you do not respect yourself.
   $ 2000.  will not buy you a speaker & Sub system capable of providing fidelity for 1000 people.

    Hammer 
   
   
   
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Jason Huntoon on May 29, 2012, 08:42:27 pm
Thanks everyone, we are going with a couple of k12's and a yamaha mg124cx for now and adding subs down the road.  We decided to get something we can build on and not something we will have to replace.  For the rooms we play, that will do nicely.  We are not looking to put anyone on their asses. 
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Scott Wagner on May 30, 2012, 12:22:50 pm
Thanks everyone, we are going with a couple of k12's and a yamaha mg124cx for now and adding subs down the road.  We decided to get something we can build on and not something we will have to replace.  For the rooms we play, that will do nicely.  We are not looking to put anyone on their asses.
While I'm not a big fan of the MG series desks, it will do the job.  Personally, I'd be looking at a used MixWiz.  The K12's are really nice sounding (especially for plastic boxes).  You're on the right path.  Too many people make the mistake of buying junk (thinking they're saving money).  Then they end up buying everything all over again later.  Enjoy the ride.

Scott Wagner
Big Nickel Audio
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Rob Spence on May 30, 2012, 01:21:55 pm
I like the previous suggestion of used HPR122s vs K12s. I have K12s and like them but the used HPRs will cost less and do just fine.

I have to have you ask yourself "Do the guitar and other instruments HAVE to go through the PA?".
Most guitar amps go louder than most lower end PAs. Have the guitar player learn how to set his volume appropriately.
The biggest expense you may face is tops and subs and amps that will make a big kick drum sound. Decide on priorities!!!

Get the band to sound good without a PA. Then make the PA get the vocals to sound real good. Now make some money for the next step.

The stuff you have is not so much POS but is simply the bottom of the line and you are simply exceeding it's design limits.
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 30, 2012, 01:36:44 pm
While I'm not a big fan of the MG series desks, it will do the job.  Personally, I'd be looking at a used MixWiz.  The K12's are really nice sounding (especially for plastic boxes).  You're on the right path.  Too many people make the mistake of buying junk (thinking they're saving money).  Then they end up buying everything all over again later.  Enjoy the ride.

Scott Wagner
Big Nickel Audio

Over the years these forums have existed, 2 "truths" have been spoken repeatedly:

1)  The wrong product at the "right price" is still the wrong product.

2)  Buy once, cry once.
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Jason Huntoon on May 30, 2012, 03:45:19 pm
While I'm not a big fan of the MG series desks, it will do the job.  Personally, I'd be looking at a used MixWiz.  The K12's are really nice sounding (especially for plastic boxes).  You're on the right path.  Too many people make the mistake of buying junk (thinking they're saving money).  Then they end up buying everything all over again later.  Enjoy the ride.

Scott Wagner
Big Nickel Audio
Thats why we ended up with the k12's.  We can expand and will, but don't want to have to rebuy things.  We could have gotten more pieces for less but we would ultimately replace it.
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Jason Huntoon on May 30, 2012, 03:49:53 pm
I like the previous suggestion of used HPR122s vs K12s. I have K12s and like them but the used HPRs will cost less and do just fine.

I have to have you ask yourself "Do the guitar and other instruments HAVE to go through the PA?".
Most guitar amps go louder than most lower end PAs. Have the guitar player learn how to set his volume appropriately.
The biggest expense you may face is tops and subs and amps that will make a big kick drum sound. Decide on priorities!!!


Get the band to sound good without a PA. Then make the PA get the vocals to sound real good. Now make some money for the next step.

The stuff you have is not so much POS but is simply the bottom of the line and you are simply exceeding it's design limits.
We usually don't put everything through the pa.  Maybe 1 in five shows.  But having the ability to do so adds to our ability to play larger spaces and have someone with ears infront of the pa mixing for us.  We are playing out about 4-6 times per month and the reliability of our pa got to be too much for us...  We had not been saving our money lol. 
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 30, 2012, 04:11:47 pm
Thats why we ended up with the k12's.  We can expand and will, but don't want to have to rebuy things.  We could have gotten more pieces for less but we would ultimately replace it.

Just remember that "expanding" by adding more of the same speakers gets you into the realm of the less desirable effects of overlapping coverage from the cabinets.  If you expand by either (a) re-purposing the K12's when you upgrade to more powerful speakers or (b) start running a "dual-PA" setup, you'll still have the limitations inherent in trying to make multiple point-source boxes play nicely together.

Good luck.
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Rob Spence on May 30, 2012, 04:47:34 pm
We usually don't put everything through the pa.  Maybe 1 in five shows.  But having the ability to do so adds to our ability to play larger spaces and have someone with ears infront of the pa mixing for us.  We are playing out about 4-6 times per month and the reliability of our pa got to be too much for us...  We had not been saving our money lol.
When your PA is what you have, putting the band through it is NOT going to make it work for larger places! You need to budget way more money to be able to put the whole band through a PA.
I think Bennet used to have a spreadsheet that specced out a minimal bar band PA for about $15,000.00 (5 years ago).
Spending $2000.00 will get you a much better vocal PA but isn't going to get the whole band in it.

I forget where you are located but you are best served by owning the gear you use for most of your gigs and rent or hire when you have the occasional big one.
Title: Re: making a purchase
Post by: Charlie Zureki on May 30, 2012, 05:36:30 pm
When your PA is what you have, putting the band through it is NOT going to make it work for larger places! You need to budget way more money to be able to put the whole band through a PA.
I think Bennet used to have a spreadsheet that specced out a minimal bar band PA for about $15,000.00 (5 years ago).
Spending $2000.00 will get you a much better vocal PA but isn't going to get the whole band in it.

I forget where you are located but you are best served by owning the gear you use for most of your gigs and rent or hire when you have the occasional big one.

  +1

   Hammer
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on May 30, 2012, 05:40:16 pm
When your PA is what you have, putting the band through it is NOT going to make it work for larger places! You need to budget way more money to be able to put the whole band through a PA.
I think Bennet used to have a spreadsheet that specced out a minimal bar band PA for about $15,000.00 (5 years ago).
Spending $2000.00 will get you a much better vocal PA but isn't going to get the whole band in it.

I forget where you are located but you are best served by owning the gear you use for most of your gigs and rent or hire when you have the occasional big one.

C'mon, Rob.  If they EACH have their own K12's they can have a real acoustic-electric group.  Each of them can play through their own individual sound system. 

But then you'd have to hire someone to stir the soup.....
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Lance Richens on May 30, 2012, 07:30:18 pm
I always get a weird look from people when I say "If you have a good drum sound & a clear vocal, that's all you need". They seem to wonder if I'm being serious or not.... ;D
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Jason Huntoon on May 30, 2012, 08:24:54 pm
When your PA is what you have, putting the band through it is NOT going to make it work for larger places! You need to budget way more money to be able to put the whole band through a PA.
I think Bennet used to have a spreadsheet that specced out a minimal bar band PA for about $15,000.00 (5 years ago).
Spending $2000.00 will get you a much better vocal PA but isn't going to get the whole band in it.

I forget where you are located but you are best served by owning the gear you use for most of your gigs and rent or hire when you have the occasional big one.
For this area (Rochester, NY) a $15,000 system blows away most of the house systems or even many of the rental places.  The largest band owned systems you see here are 2 15's and 2 subs.  In this area places where you cant talk because they are being blasted with walls of sound go out of business fast.  When we put the whole band into it we are typically either trying to achieve better balance or simple supplement and reinforce for a larger space. 
Title: Re: making a pruchase
Post by: Scott Bolt on May 30, 2012, 08:35:42 pm
Thanks everyone, we are going with a couple of k12's and a yamaha mg124cx for now and adding subs down the road.  We decided to get something we can build on and not something we will have to replace.  For the rooms we play, that will do nicely.  We are not looking to put anyone on their asses.
That is a good system for vocals and guitar.  I think you are going to be pleased with it.

I think you would have been impressed had you auditioned the new Yamaha DXR15's though.  Lots of punch in a relatively inexpensive and solid package.

Let us know how it sounds!