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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: David Junius on March 23, 2019, 04:30:00 PM
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Ok, so I’ve got a pair of subs with the 2242 driver in them. I’m considering building another pair since they aren’t available but I see I may have trouble finding those drivers. I thought about buying the matching subs to my tops but those aren’t available anymore either. So is JBL making a driver comparable or is there another driver out there that would be close enough for me to build a semi matching pair to what I have? The alternative is buying something currently on the market.
Thanks
DJ
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While the 2242 is a good sounding 18, by todays standards it's a dated design.
What type design sub cabinets are they in?
What are you going to use the subs for?
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While the 2242 is a good sounding 18, by todays standards it's a dated design.
What type design sub cabinets are they in?
What are you going to use the subs for?
The 2242’s are in my “w” bin cabinets. Yes I do get the occasional comment about still carrying around those subs! But I’ve had them for close to 20 years now and they’ve been fine for me. I use 1 per side under one or two yorkville U15’s. As I’m growing a little I wanted a little more sub and figured I’d get another pair as that’s probably the cheapest route only to find I can’t find them. So then I decided that maybe I should just upgrade and get 4 subs that actually match my tops only to find they aren’t available either. So my next option is to find a driver that’s close enough in sound and build 2 copies of my w’s or just upgrade all my subs to something that’s newer and available. So that’s when I decided to post in here and see which option makes the most sense. I know eventually I might be able to find this stuff used, but then I’m at the mercy of playing the waiting game to find the stuff, not that I’m ready to buy a large batch of subs right now since this started as a how much are my current subs to add a pair!
Dave
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The 2242’s are in my “w” bin cabinets. Yes I do get the occasional comment about still carrying around those subs! But I’ve had them for close to 20 years now and they’ve been fine for me. I use 1 per side under one or two yorkville U15’s. As I’m growing a little I wanted a little more sub and figured I’d get another pair as that’s probably the cheapest route only to find I can’t find them. So then I decided that maybe I should just upgrade and get 4 subs that actually match my tops only to find they aren’t available either. So my next option is to find a driver that’s close enough in sound and build 2 copies of my w’s or just upgrade all my subs to something that’s newer and available. So that’s when I decided to post in here and see which option makes the most sense. I know eventually I might be able to find this stuff used, but then I’m at the mercy of playing the waiting game to find the stuff, not that I’m ready to buy a large batch of subs right now since this started as a how much are my current subs to add a pair!
Dave
Both the U15 and the LS1208 subs are still being made. There is also the ES21 subs which I think would be a decent match to the U15.
Best regards,
John
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Just a quick FWIW, if older JBLs in W-bins are your reference, I suspect you'll be impressed at what a modern high-power 18" in a sensible ported box will do.
Chris
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Both the U15 and the LS1208 subs are still being made. There is also the ES21 subs which I think would be a decent match to the U15.
Best regards,
John
I saw that the U15 is still in production on their site. I didn’t see the LS1208 but I wasn’t looking for that sub either. I was in reference to the UCS-1 not in production. I’ll look into those ES21’s. Are the LS1208’s carpeted? I’d like to get away from carpeted boxes.
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Just a quick FWIW, if older JBLs in W-bins are your reference, I suspect you'll be impressed at what a modern high-power 18" in a sensible ported box will do.
Chris
Maybe. I don’t have much opportunity to demo speakers. I’m sure there’s people around me with stuff I could listen to, but I don’t have those contacts yet. I know Danley is up the street from me but I doubt I’ll have a budget for anything up there. I’ve done some freelancing in the past with a larger company but I’m not in the market for a kf850 rig either. I started with those w’s under some Yamaha club speakers back in the day and just never upgraded, but I see that maybe now is that time! I guess I should do some research and see what’s out there.
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Maybe. I don’t have much opportunity to demo speakers. I’m sure there’s people around me with stuff I could listen to, but I don’t have those contacts yet. I know Danley is up the street from me but I doubt I’ll have a budget for anything up there. I’ve done some freelancing in the past with a larger company but I’m not in the market for a kf850 rig either. I started with those w’s under some Yamaha club speakers back in the day and just never upgraded, but I see that maybe now is that time! I guess I should do some research and see what’s out there.
The 2240 and 2242 were awesome woofers for their day but their day was 20 - 30 years ago. A whole lot has happened since then with transducer materials and physical design and construction to achieve longer xMAX and dissipate more heat and survive the mechanical stresses.
It's not easy to audition new gear, you're right. A lot of my early listening is arranged by calling the regional rep firm for the manufacturer(s) I'm interested in and asking what retailers or pro end users have ordered inventory of the thing I'm interested in. After that it's a few phone calls to see when they might be used or available to audition.
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The 2240 and 2242 were awesome woofers for their day but their day was 20 - 30 years ago. A whole lot has happened since then with transducer materials and physical design and construction to achieve longer xMAX and dissipate more heat and survive the mechanical stresses.
It's not easy to audition new gear, you're right. A lot of my early listening is arranged by calling the regional rep firm for the manufacturer(s) I'm interested in and asking what retailers or pro end users have ordered inventory of the thing I'm interested in. After that it's a few phone calls to see when they might be used or available to audition.
I get it, technology has made drastic improvements in the audio world in the last 20 years. Just look at how much has gone digital. I will say this, people have been impressed how my w bins sounded once they heard them. The comment was always, those aren’t stock drivers are they?
John, when I search for ES21 subwoofer I get results showing me a small home theatre subwoofer. Could you give me more info on that sub!
Also, has anyone done a subwoofer comparison lately. I originally thought I was going to be adding a pair of w bins and now I’m looking into buying a whole new set of subs and I really have no idea where to begin. I guess I’ll need to decide if I want to go with active or passive boxes first. I almost feel like these comments are saying that anything I buy today will at least keep up with my w’s if not out-perform then so it almost doesn’t matter what I buy!
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The last new price for a 2242 was something around $700...way over priced even then in comparison to what else was available let alone to what is available now.
What size are your W bins. They have some output but may not be going as low as you think.
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The last new price for a 2242 was something around $700...way over priced even then in comparison to what else was available let alone to what is available now.
What size are your W bins. They have some output but may not be going as low as you think.
The W bin - at least the original "RCA" style - was optimized for around 55 Hz, IIRC
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The Keele W horns that JBL published designs for were specced as being a 40 hz flare rate and noted that a stack of eight would provide the requisite mouth area. Like so much else on the PSW forums this has come up before.
https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=138996.0
The W bin - at least the original "RCA" style - was optimized for around 55 Hz, IIRC
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John, when I search for ES21 subwoofer I get results showing me a small home theatre subwoofer. Could you give me more info on that sub!
http://yorkville.com/subwoofers/elite/product/es21p/ (http://yorkville.com/subwoofers/elite/product/es21p/)
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The last new price for a 2242 was something around $700...way over priced even then in comparison to what else was available let alone to what is available now.
What size are your W bins. They have some output but may not be going as low as you think.
Yeah, $700 a piece is way too steep. Mine are 24”x30”x48” outside dimensions. One of my bands had their own gear when I met them and they had a pair of OAP brand W’s loaded with eminence drivers. It was night and day difference between theirs and mine. Mine seem smoother than theirs were and more punchy, probably due to being able to handle more power. I’m not saying that they are the best subs out there, but they sound different than most other W bins. I would like to measure their output and see what they are actually doing. I don’t have a rig to measure with and I don’t know anyone local that does either.
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I would like to measure their output and see what they are actually doing. I don’t have a rig to measure with and I don’t know anyone local that does either.
If you update your user profile with your location (counterintuitively, on this forum software you need to put it in the "Personal Text" field for it to show up in your posts BTW), you may well find there's a forum member nearby who'd be willing to come do a measurement session with you for the cost of a beer or 2.
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If you update your user profile with your location (counterintuitively, on this forum software you need to put it in the "Personal Text" field for it to show up in your posts BTW), you may well find there's a forum member nearby who'd be willing to come do a measurement session with you for the cost of a beer or 2.
Thanks for that David!
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Thanks for that David!
Atlanta? You're in luck. Besides having about every major and minor brand represented in that market, it's home of Danley Sound Labs. You might have a life-changing experience in their demo room with the W bin as your standard of comparison.
Twelve years ago LAB participant Paul Bell sponsored a subwoofer shoot out in a club in Manhattan and we spent 2 days doing TEF sweeps and listening/feeling. The Environmental Police showed up because we were shaking an apartment on the 5th floor... across the street. Reports in the Archive under NYC Subwoofer shootout.
Today's new subs might be +4dB in output and maybe another 1/3 octave lower for similar physical size/weight. That's 50% fewer subs to own, transport, handle, and occupy venue space. We've come a long, long way.
It's a great time to be in audio! :D
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Atlanta? You're in luck. Besides having about every major and minor brand represented in that market, it's home of Danley Sound Labs. You might have a life-changing experience in their demo room with the W bin as your standard of comparison.
Twelve years ago LAB participant Paul Bell sponsored a subwoofer shoot out in a club in Manhattan and we spent 2 days doing TEF sweeps and listening/feeling. The Environmental Police showed up because we were shaking an apartment on the 5th floor... across the street. Reports in the Archive under NYC Subwoofer shootout.
Today's new subs might be +4dB in output and maybe another 1/3 octave lower for similar physical size/weight. That's 50% fewer subs to own, transport, handle, and occupy venue space. We've come a long, long way.
It's a great time to be in audio! :D
It’s funny you mention this. My neighbor actually works for Danley. I’ve been wanting to make a trip over there even though I can almost bet that everything will be above my budget, but I’ve heard not to let that stop me from stopping by.
Then on a side note, I got a demo tonight. Had a gig with one of my regular bands. Corporate party and lucky me there was a PA already in the room and it was prearranged that was was just sending them a stereo mix. So I got mix on a Meyer line array, not sure of the model, but there were 6 boxes a side, s 2 subs and I think 4 small fill speakers. Subs were their 500hp’s. I see what you guys mean about the newer technology, I had all the low end I needed from those flown boxes and the 2 subs! Granted the rig was more than enough for that ballroom but my 2 subs couldn’t compete with those things. I haven’t looked them up yet, but I’m sure those are out of my budget too.
So I guess in theory, if I knew what my subs performance numbers were it would be easier to compare on paper all these other boxes and I could end up just buying 2 for now since they obviously will outperform my w’s! So I could afford 2 nicer subs versus 4 cheaper ones. Something to think about.
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I got to work with a few of the HP700’s, these were very good!
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http://yorkville.com/subwoofers/elite/product/es21p/ (http://yorkville.com/subwoofers/elite/product/es21p/)
Thanks, can’t belive I didn’t see this earlier. That thing is a beast at 202lbs!
While weight for a sub doesn’t bother me too much, I am still basically a one man show for now but that may be changing in the near future since I’ve got a band that’s asking for more “production” in terms of lighting. So I may start having someone around to help schlep gear! Guess I need to start looking for demo opportunities and make an appointment up the street to listen to some Danley stuff too!
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Hi David, I use some Orbit Shifter Pro subwoofers (http://jtrspeakers.com/orbit-shifter-pro.html) from JTR Speakers.
Lots of talk about them here on the forums if you do some searching, and some independent (and very detailed) measurements have been done of them over on the data-bass (https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=119) website. Roughly similar size to your W-bins, 18" folded horn with tilt-back casters and high power handling. I have not been disappointed, which is why my two are becoming four next week. Might be worth looking into as an option that packs a lot of power for its size/price.
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Hi David, I use some Orbit Shifter Pro subwoofers (http://jtrspeakers.com/orbit-shifter-pro.html) from JTR Speakers.
Lots of talk about them here on the forums if you do some searching, and some independent (and very detailed) measurements have been done of them over on the data-bass (https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=119) website. Roughly similar size to your W-bins, 18" folded horn with tilt-back casters and high power handling. I have not been disappointed, which is why my two are becoming four next week. Might be worth looking into as an option that packs a lot of power for its size/price.
Thanks, I’ll check those out too. I’ve seen forum posts referring to them but never really looked at them. But right now everything is worth checking out. I definitely won’t be buying something I have not demo’d though. I’m not in a hurry to buy so I’ll start looking for demo opportunities, even if I have to travel some!
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Atlanta? You're in luck. Besides having about every major and minor brand represented in that market, it's home of Danley Sound Labs. You might have a life-changing experience in their demo room with the W bin as your standard of comparison.
Twelve years ago LAB participant Paul Bell sponsored a subwoofer shoot out in a club in Manhattan and we spent 2 days doing TEF sweeps and listening/feeling. The Environmental Police showed up because we were shaking an apartment on the 5th floor... across the street. Reports in the Archive under NYC Subwoofer shootout.
Today's new subs might be +4dB in output and maybe another 1/3 octave lower for similar physical size/weight. That's 50% fewer subs to own, transport, handle, and occupy venue space. We've come a long, long way.
It's a great time to be in audio! :D
I met Tim (and Ivan) at that event. Some of the subs were massive. One weighed 350 lbs. yikes. This guy from Chicago brought along a little horn loaded sub to include. While it wasn’t competing with the big guys, we were blown away by it. When I got home I bought 4 of the JTR Growlers.
Last year I sold the 4 of them and the QSC PL6.0 and replaced them with 2 Danley TH118s and a 4000 watt plate amp. This gave me 2 easier to move subs, more output and lower extension and lightened up the amp rack to boot.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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I met Tim (and Ivan) at that event. Some of the subs were massive. One weighed 350 lbs. yikes. This guy from Chicago brought along a little horn loaded sub to include. While it wasn’t competing with the big guys, we were blown away by it. When I got home I bought 4 of the JTR Growlers.
Last year I sold the 4 of them and the QSC PL6.0 and replaced them with 2 Danley TH118s and a 4000 watt plate amp. This gave me 2 easier to move subs, more output and lower extension and lightened up the amp rack to boot.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Right now that’s kind of my deciding point. Do I get 4 of something a little smaller or 2 of something maybe a little bigger. That question may become easy once I start to demo stuff. Good food for thought though! Thanks
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Last year I sold the 4 of them and the QSC PL6.0 and replaced them with 2 Danley TH118s and a 4000 watt plate amp. This gave me 2 easier to move subs, more output and lower extension and lightened up the amp rack to boot.
So you have one active and one passive TH118, and installed a Speakon jumper in the powered cabinet to power the passive cabinet? I think the power module puts out 4000w at 2 ohms, which would be 2000w/speaker if using the 4 ohm drivers.
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If you liked the size and output of the Meyer 500-HP, then you may want to take a look at the JTR Captivator 212 Pro which is a fairly new 2 x 12" design. A search here should turn up several threads discussing this sub and it just so happens that there is a powered pair for sale in the Marketplace right now. By the way, the asking price for used Meyer 500-HPs seems to be around $2,000 per box. It is a 10 year old design, but is still a current product for Meyer. I have no idea what the new price would be for it.
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...This guy from Chicago brought along a little horn loaded sub to include. While it wasn’t competing with the big guys, we were blown away by it. When I got home I bought 4 of the JTR Growlers.
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I think I just bought them. Don't discount the Growler if your reference is a 20 year old W bin. 4 Growlers easily replaced, and then some, two Community VLF218 for me. The VLF218 is about the same size as the TH118. Each Growler is about half that size. For me they are easier to utilize for smaller shows where space is a concern. Put all 4 together center clustered and they get the job done!
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If you liked the size and output of the Meyer 500-HP, then you may want to take a look at the JTR Captivator 212 Pro which is a fairly new 2 x 12" design. A search here should turn up several threads discussing this sub and it just so happens that there is a powered pair for sale in the Marketplace right now. By the way, the asking price for used Meyer 500-HPs seems to be around $2,000 per box. It is a 10 year old design, but is still a current product for Meyer. I have no idea what the new price would be for it.
I’m not sure I’d go the Meyer HP500 route just based on that one time use. I was getting lots of low end from the hanging line array too so I’m not sure how much bass was filling the room from just those subs. When I would walk past them though I definitely knew they were working. I didn’t ask what the line array boxes were but I was able to get a good look at the subs while waiting on the band to show up. They definitely surprised me for output versus size, especially since I’ve learned they were double 12’s.
Since I ground stack my rig I would either need something tall enough to stack my U15B’s on or have a pole mount cup. I’m sure that’s not a big deal these days as it seems everything has a pole mount to it. The next thing would be how easy they are to move around. I’m not concerned with the weight so long as I’m not having to pick it up to move it, so either 4 casters or tilt and push! I don’t have a budget yet since again I went into this looking to just add 2 more w’s so I’ll need to see what I like and then put a budget together based on that.
I’ve also looked up those yorkville es21’s on their site, thanks for the link. Those are a little smaller than my current subs but about 50lbs heavier, so that’s something to think about as well.
So who on here is semi local to Atlanta and what do you have that I could come out and listen to? Obviously I need to run up to Danley, but what else are the locals using? Feel free to do the private message thing if you’re not wanting to advertise to everybody. Also is there anyone local that could help with measurements for my current subs so I can at least compare specs? Thanks everyone for all this great advice and suggestions.
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So you have one active and one passive TH118, and installed a Speakon jumper in the powered cabinet to power the passive cabinet? I think the power module puts out 4000w at 2 ohms, which would be 2000w/speaker if using the 4 ohm drivers.
The plate amp has a parallel speakon out. Made it easy.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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If you liked the size and output of the Meyer 500-HP, then you may want to take a look at the JTR Captivator 212 Pro which is a fairly new 2 x 12" design. A search here should turn up several threads discussing this sub and it just so happens that there is a powered pair for sale in the Marketplace right now.
So I’ve found a pair of QSC kw181’s that friend has, and Friday I just picked up a gig and I’ll have a pair of something supplementing my rig, I’ll find out when I pick them up what they are. So far all I know is single 18’s.
Does anybody near Atlanta have anything from JTR that I could come listen to? I’ll even help on a show for free just to have a listen to some boxes! I just don’t know many people in this huge city that does audio on my scale!
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So I’ve found a pair of QSC kw181’s that friend has, and Friday I just picked up a gig and I’ll have a pair of something supplementing my rig, I’ll find out when I pick them up what they are. So far all I know is single 18’s.
Ok, so I’m at the show now got 4 QSC kw181’s with my w’s. These things are walking all over my subs! I’ve got the 4 qsc’s across the front of the stage and it really doesn’t matter that my subs are even here. Since people on the forum have said they like the JTR stuff better, I would love to hear them but apparently no one has any in Atlanta. I can say I am impressed by these kw’s. It also helps that there’s more here in town should I need to rent them.
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Technology certainly has moved on.
I'd say the KW181 is getting a little long in the tooth these days, too - I have 15"s that can put out 6dB more at 40Hz.
That said, KW181s are quite useful in that you'll always have the option to rent some more.
Chris
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Technology certainly has moved on.
I'd say the KW181 is getting a little long in the tooth these days, too - I have 15"s that can put out 6dB more at 40Hz.
That said, KW181s are quite useful in that you'll always have the option to rent some more.
Chris
Yes, I’m not set on buying the kw’s yet. Just noted that they play really nice with my tops and there’s more local should I need to rent. However I am still open to wanting to listen/demo other subs. However it seems that by lack of response there’s either no one willing to demo speakers in my area, or no one has anything different than what I’ve already listened to! Obviously the big companies in town all have matched rigs, ie subs that match their line array. It’s a little more difficult to find the lounge level guys, many I’m sure aren’t on here!
David
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However I am still open to wanting to listen/demo other subs. However it seems that by lack of response there’s either no one willing to demo speakers in my area, or no one has anything different than what I’ve already listened to!
JTR Speakers has a somewhat active Facebook page, so you could try posting on there to see if there are any JTR Pro owners in the Atlanta area. If you follow JTR on FB for a while you'll learn that their main focus is the serious home theater enthusiast. Another option is to get out there and network; go to live shows and introduce yourself during set breaks to the sound crew. The best time to talk to me is after soundcheck, but before the first set. :) Mind you, I am nowhere near Atlanta, GA.