Post by: Rusty Irby on February 03, 2010, 12:18:56 PM
He has a 65,000 square foot shop that he builds speakers boxes, that he sells nationwide. They are enclosures for cars, trucks, boats, and all terrain vehicles. He also builds what is called Extreme Houses, and uses trees for this.
Would (4) Lab Subs walk all over my (4) LS808's?
If there are any other boxes to build please let me know.
Thanks,
Rusty Irby
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on February 03, 2010, 12:23:55 PM
| Rusty Irby wrote on Wed, 03 February 2010 12:18 |
Would (4) Lab Subs walk all over my (4) LS808's? Thanks, Rusty Irby |
Yes.
And, at 4x the size too. FWIW
Evan
Post by: Silas Pradetto on February 03, 2010, 02:33:48 PM
| Rusty Irby wrote on Wed, 03 February 2010 12:18 |
Would (4) Lab Subs walk all over my (4) LS808's? Thanks, Rusty Irby |
Four will walk over 16 of your LS808s...
Post by: Art Welter on February 03, 2010, 02:52:23 PM
| Evan Kirkendall wrote on Wed, 03 February 2010 10:23 | ||
Yes. And, at 4x the size too. FWIW Evan |
Actually, only about double the space- four LS808 (without wheels) take up 46.84 cubic feet, four Lab subs take up 105 cubic feet.
The 45 inch depth is a no go for me, and if you are going two or more high, the width could be a problem in small venues too.
I'll repeat something I wrote about before, even though I know 650Ps are not that loud:
Got to do a side by side gig with my system ground stacked onext to a flown Vertec 4889 system, 8 per side with 4 Meyers 650P subs per side.
16) 18” cones, 9920 watts ”burst capability”,140 cubic feet of truck space, 1768 LBS.
Headliner frequently pushed the 650P subs into TPL (TruPower limiting) and Excursion limit. The spectrum was 60 HZ boom boom, about 6 dB more 60 than 40 HZ, which corresponds with the cabinet’s continuous rating and spectrum.
At FOH, about 125 ft out, the system was hitting 108 dBC, the hard limit, no extra VU swing resulted in any more output, though it did sound crunchier..
My stage was doing dance groups with recorded music and one live act. On the last dance group, with some fairly heavy LF content, my 4) 2xLab 12” front loaded subs were hitting 104 dB, spectrum looking pretty equal from 40-80 HZ.
8)12” cones, 3600 watts, 31 cubic feet of truck space, 400 LBS.
+2 dB at 40 HZ, -4 dB at 60 HZ compared to the sixteen 18".
Not bad for something smaller than what Rusty currently uses.
And unlike a LS808, they sound really accurate.
Art Welter
Post by: Pete Koch on February 03, 2010, 05:13:22 PM
Post by: Art Welter on February 03, 2010, 06:58:12 PM
| Pete Koch wrote on Wed, 03 February 2010 15:13 |
How much do the Meyer 650P's cost, compared to the 808's? |
Pete,
MSRP on the LS808 is around $1200, 650P would probably be about three times that. Meyers does not post prices, that's just a guess on my part.
Why do you ask?
Art Welter
Post by: Pete Koch on February 03, 2010, 09:03:53 PM
The OP could get rid of the crap neo 18's they put in the current 808's since 2005, and put original ceramic magnet B&C 18 063 drivers in the box.
From personal experience...it is night and day.
The neo's sound boomy as hell, no definition, honky, hollow...and lack any tight punch.
Just like everyone says.
The ceramics sound WAY tighter, pound hard, and generally sound like a different animal altogether.
They are available, and B&C, Yorkville, and US Speaker, all concur with that. The ceramic 18 063 is a 1200 watt driver, and the parameters fit the box really well.
For $250 a box, it would be a viable option to try, anyway...
unless the OP has $25-50K to spend.
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on February 04, 2010, 12:18:16 PM
The other option will be to find 12 used JBL SRX728. They will give those 650 a run for the money
Post by: Art Welter on February 04, 2010, 02:47:46 PM
| Pete Koch wrote on Wed, 03 February 2010 19:03 |
I wasn't sure why the sound comparison to a sub that lists at $6260.00 a box. The OP could get rid of the crap neo 18's they put in the current 808's since 2005, and put original ceramic magnet B&C 18 063 drivers in the box. From personal experience...it is night and day. The neo's sound boomy as hell, no definition, honky, hollow...and lack any tight punch. Just like everyone says. The ceramics sound WAY tighter, pound hard, and generally sound like a different animal altogether. They are available, and B&C, Yorkville, and US Speaker, all concur with that. The ceramic 18 063 is a 1200 watt driver, and the parameters fit the box really well. For $250 a box, it would be a viable option to try, anyway... unless the OP has $25-50K to spend. |
Pete,
If you read my post again, I got a chance to compare four of my small ported cabinets using Lab 12 speakers to eight Meyers 650P. My cabinets produced about 4 dB less at 60 HZ, but 2 dB more at 40 HZ than the 650P, using a small fraction of the power. In fact, my whole PA was running off two twenty amp circuits.
I did not compare the 650P to the cabinets the OP is currently dissatisfied with.
Changing cones in the LS808 certainly may help, but it does not change the cabinet design, different animal in the same cage.
For the price of eight Lab 12 cones (about $1250), he can get more LF output than eight 650P cabinets, in a package that is smaller than he currently has.
This is the response curve of my 2x12" cabinet:
Art Welter
Post by: Duncan McLennan on February 05, 2010, 12:28:28 AM
I might consider building one if it fits the bill.
Post by: Tony Ly on February 05, 2010, 05:38:50 AM
| Duncan McLennan wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 05:28 |
How much and what type of power are you driving those subs with Art? And how big are the cabinets? I might consider building one if it fits the bill. |
Care to post a picture? I wouldn't minding one to try for drum fill also.
Post by: Al Limberg on February 05, 2010, 06:45:23 AM
?;o)
Al
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on February 05, 2010, 11:16:19 AM
There are lots of box designs that will do much better.
Post by: Pete Koch on February 05, 2010, 11:39:22 AM
I am sure the small lab ported subs sound great, but there are a zillion driver/box combinations one could use and get 40hz all day long with more efficiency in a 15 or 18" format.
The tradeoff comes with how many boxes do you need to haul/stack, and if carrying 8 subs instead of four LS808's, for example, is really an "upgrade".
The efficiency at 50-100hz is more important to me for live sound, than flat to 35 hz, and inefficient. No 12" woofer is gonna be more than 92db or so (outside), which is 10db below a double 18", or a single horn/semi horn or scoop design.
It's all a tradoff, and I think the OP was looking for an improvement in sound/output in a reasonable footprint.
I would rather roll in 2 to 4 large wheeled cabs, than carry/stack a half dozen per side and get the same thump from a kick drum/bass guitar.
I've done several ported design over the years using JBL 15/18 woofers. They all sounded great, but the 18's always seem to win out, no matter the design. I guess I just like the sound of them in the kick region, whether ported or scoop loaded, etc.
BTW, nice work, Art. I am sure the labs ported sound killer!
Not trying to downplay your design/input here..at all.
I still think Rusty needs to try an upgraded ceramic driver, and use Crest amps before he dumps the 808's.
Another 808 owner on here, tiring of the boominess, got Pro200 amps and was blown away at the difference in the tightness.
I use CC series amps, and frankly never understood all of the dissing on the boxes...mine sound punchy, and follow the notes well...but the cc series is basically a pro200 series...except with a conventional power supply (which crest engineers say actually has BETTER bass than the regulated supply in the pro series, believe it or not)
I just know they work well together.
Pete
Post by: Rusty Irby on February 05, 2010, 12:04:34 PM
Where do I go to actually get some great plans on building great subs?
Post by: Art Welter on February 05, 2010, 01:36:26 PM
| Marjan Milosevic wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 09:16 |
I dont think that Lab speakers are usable as main FOH subwoofers in BR boxes. That design that Al is mentioning is offering a maximum 124Db output. Yes it does go low but not loud enough. There are lots of box designs that will do much better. |
Who is Al
?A pair of the dual Lab 12 ported cabinets are about 96 dB one watt one meter in their pass band.
The fact that four dual 12 speakers driven from two Crest CA-9 were able to put out more level at 40 HZ and only 4 dB less at 60 HZ than 8 Meyers 650P proves they are indeed usable for main subwoofers, unless you also think the 650P are unusable.
I am not making this comparison up, I measured with music, the 650P subs were well into TPL (TruPower limiting) and Excursion limit, they were at their end stops. My subs were keeping up.
Granted, there are louder subs than the 650P, but that gig was an opportunity for me to compare my cabinets with a commercially available sub, and the results speak for themselves.
If you and Pete Koch don’t believe me, that is your prerogative.
Frankly, I would not have thought what I measured was possible had I not done extensive testing of the Lab 12 in horn loaded and various size ported cabinets prior to that gig.
Art Welter
Post by: Art Welter on February 05, 2010, 02:42:12 PM
| Al Limberg wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 04:45 |
With the new release of the LAB15 from Eminence, compact single 15" drum subs might be pretty interesting. Jerry McNutt has posted 4.5 and 10 cubic foot .pdf plans at the Eminence site. ?;o) Al |
The Lab 15 Vd is 968 cc, two Lab 12 =1318cc Vd.
The Lab 15 takes a bigger box and more power to achieve the same output as the 12, two Lab 12 in a similar size box offer around 3dB more sensitivity and more than 6 dB more output.
For a drum sub, the much higher sensitivity in the 50HZ up range of an Eminence 4015LF would be a better choice for most drummers.
Art Welter
Post by: Pete Koch on February 05, 2010, 02:53:34 PM
But if they put out 4 db less at 60 hz, that is a bunch, and that is right where the dual 18's and 808's shine...and exactly what is needed for live reinforcement, IME.
I am sure your dual 12's sound better than my 808's, even with upgraded drivers and a ton of power....
I just need more output where it really counts, and would have to have four of your subs per side, instead of two, and two more amps to drive them. So 6 more items to carry and set up and plug in
I wish I lived closer, would love to hear them.
How about some pics??
Rock on,
Pete
Post by: Art Welter on February 05, 2010, 02:57:09 PM
| Tony Ly wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 03:38 | ||
Care to post a picture? I wouldn't minding one to try for drum fill also. |
Here is a picture showing the subs, they are 26.5” wide, 22.5” depth and height.
Powered by two Crest CA9.
That was the first time I had put four in one cluster, I was expecting a ton of output
.As it turned out, the power was lame, at 50 feet I was getting less output than at 125 feet with good power, subs on either side of stage
.Art Welter
Post by: Pete Koch on February 05, 2010, 02:59:44 PM
Would love to pics of what you did, although dimensions can easily be altered to fit the application.
Perhaps even a smaller box, with higher tuning, as well, for more midbass above 50 hz.... hmmm
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on February 05, 2010, 03:01:21 PM
http://forum.speakerplans.com/beyma-sb18-building-pics_topic 34250.html
And here:
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/51159/170/
Just to have some food for tonight.
There are also designs on the 18sound and B&C web sites for double and single 18 enclosures.
How much are you thinking to spend on the boxes?
Post by: Pete Koch on February 05, 2010, 03:01:53 PM
!
Post by: Tim Padrick on February 07, 2010, 03:50:04 AM
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on February 07, 2010, 06:47:31 AM
Post by: Fabrice Bocarde on February 08, 2010, 10:53:29 AM
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on February 08, 2010, 11:53:49 AM
| Art Welter wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 20:57 | ||||
Here is a picture showing the subs, they are 26.5” wide, 22.5” depth and height. Powered by two Crest CA9. That was the first time I had put four in one cluster, I was expecting a ton of output .As it turned out, the power was lame, at 50 feet I was getting less output than at 125 feet with good power, subs on either side of stage .Art Welter |
Can you tell us more about the tops?
Post by: Art Welter on February 08, 2010, 01:18:16 PM
Here is the tell all story about the top cabinets:
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/389133/19717/?sr ch=Box#msg_389133
The lower top box has four 8” cones and no HF drivers, it gets the HF above heads and provides more low mid, the HF can outrun the mids without the extra box.
After using these cabinets for a few years, I have to say that the angling between cabinets and the whole stack is absolutely critical for even HF coverage, a few degrees can make a huge difference.
The driver count: eight Lab 12, twenty eight Eminence Alpha 8, ten EV DH1Amt-16.
I’d like to carry twice as many subs, but can’t fit any more stuff in my 5x8 trailer with eight 2x8 monitors, a drum sub, amps, cords, stands, and FOH...
Art Welter
Post by: Marjan Milosevic on February 08, 2010, 04:34:53 PM
Post by: Tony Ly on February 10, 2010, 02:35:03 AM
| Art Welter wrote on Fri, 05 February 2010 19:42 |
For a drum sub, the much higher sensitivity in the 50HZ up range of an Eminence 4015LF would be a better choice for most drummers. [ Art Welter |
One more question Art,
Do you think the single 4015LF would have more output then the two lab subs in the ported box?
Post by: Art Welter on February 10, 2010, 12:50:36 PM
| Tony Ly wrote on Wed, 10 February 2010 00:35 | ||
One more question Art, Do you think the single 4015LF would have more output then the two lab subs in the ported box? |
Yes and no, depends on frequency.
As I said, the 4015LF will do more in the range most drummers want.
The traces below are at the same drive level, comparing a single 4015LF, Lab 2x12, and a single very small single Lab 12.
Art Welter
Post by: Tony Ly on February 11, 2010, 02:05:18 AM
Post by: Jonathan 'JP' Peirce on July 14, 2010, 11:43:22 PM
| Art Welter wrote on Wed, 03 February 2010 18:58 | ||
Pete, MSRP on the LS808 is around $1200, 650P would probably be about three times that. Meyers does not post prices, that's just a guess on my part. Why do you ask? Art Welter |
Try 5x that...
Post by: Art Welter on July 15, 2010, 01:46:39 PM
| Jonathan 'JP' Peirce wrote on Wed, 14 July 2010 21:43 | ||||
Try 5x that... |
Yeah, Pete Koch pointed out Wed, 03 February 2010 that the Meyers 650P lists at $6260.00 a box.
I saved a lot of money using The Eminence Lab 12”.