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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: eric lenasbunt on July 01, 2016, 12:15:51 AM
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When using two per side are you guys following the box angles or how are you finding you should splay the boxes? Seems pretty extreme if filling box angle. Trying out two per side outside on the 4th, I'll play with it but wanted to see if anyone had any suggestions based on trial and error.
Thanks!
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When using two per side are you guys following the box angles or how are you finding you should splay the boxes? Seems pretty extreme if filling box angle. Trying out two per side outside on the 4th, I'll play with it but wanted to see if anyone had any suggestions based on trial and error.
Thanks!
Danley has a great little piece of software you can down load for free and have a look at whats happening.
Here is a plot at 40 + 40 degrees @ 1000Hz - as you can see as soon as you start to array the boxes there will be a few issues. Most boxes will behave like this expect for things like L- Acoustic's ARC's and other constant curvature arrays.
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When using two per side are you guys following the box angles or how are you finding you should splay the boxes? Seems pretty extreme if filling box angle. Trying out two per side outside on the 4th, I'll play with it but wanted to see if anyone had any suggestions based on trial and error.
Thanks!
The Sm80s don't array as well as the other arrayable Danley products.
It was designed/intended as a stand alone box.
Yes it is cut at the proper angle (40*), but due to the driver used, you physically can't get the drivers close enough together (with relation to wavelength) to have a really nice smooth coverage.
It was also cut on an angle to reduce the size/weight and to keep the back volume small for a sealed box that has a gentle rolloff.
What I have found by playing with them arrayed and listening (I have not played in the Direct modeling with them) is to have the fronts touching and the back kicked apart a little.
About a vertical fists worth of distance is a good starting point-around 3"
This is opposite of what you do with other boxes that are not cut at the correct splay angle.
What you end up doing is creating an overlap in the patterns. So the overall coverage will be less than the 160*
Yes you can hear it with noise, but I doubt many people will hear it with music.
It is all a matter of compromise
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I often use them hardpacked against each other if I need very wide coverage, and this works very well. I've even had a set of "forks" made specially for this (not for mounting on a regular speaker stand!)
A little dip in the highs right down the middle, so it might be a good idea to take the backs of the cabinets apart by a little as Ivan suggests.
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Thanks guys. Yeah, I use Direct a lot and love it for design. I was more looking for the descriptions like above of physically how guys are packing them. Like touching in the front, a fist width or more in rear, etc.
We'll play with it Monday, I'll let you know what we find.
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Thanks guys. Yeah, I use Direct a lot and love it for design. I was more looking for the descriptions like above of physically how guys are packing them. Like touching in the front, a fist width or more in rear, etc.
We'll play with it Monday, I'll let you know what we find.
And when all else fails-LISTEN.
A particular situation may need a different solution than the models tell you.
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I have used two per side by stacking them vertically per Ivan's suggestion. Maybe Ivan could chime in on the implications of using them in that way.
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I have used two per side by stacking them vertically per Ivan's suggestion. Maybe Ivan could chime in on the implications of using them in that way.
You could "stack and splay" them.
You will now introduce a new "problem" into the overall situation.
The signal arrival from the top cabinet will be slightly different than that from the bottom cabinet.
The notch at which this would appear will change with distance from the cabinets.
But it might overall be better than side by side.
I can't comment-since I have not tried it that way. Sorry.
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Sounds good. I'll play with it, can't have worse interference than the 650 rig we were using.
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I heard a pair of 80s splayed at the Danley shop and while not perfect, as the software indicates, the overlapping coverage sounds WAY smoother with the horn design than any pair of standard 2 way cabs I have used.
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I heard a pair of 80s splayed at the Danley shop and while not perfect, as the software indicates, the overlapping coverage sounds WAY somoother with the horn design than any pair of standard 2 way cabs I have used.
Thanks Keith! This is outdoors on the intercostal waterway. Honestly between the wind and crowd and traffic I doubt a little bit of interference is going to be any problem at all.
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Thanks Keith! This is outdoors on the intercostal waterway. Honestly between the wind and crowd and traffic I doubt a little bit of interference is going to be any problem at all.
OH-You're not trying to mix an album sitting in the overlap zone????? You should be fine.
Side by side will generally easier and safer to deploy than stack and splay.
I do need to do the "stack and splay" and listen when I get a chance. Just for reference.
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OH-You're not trying to mix an album sitting in the overlap zone????? You should be fine.
Side by side will generally easier and safer to deploy than stack and splay.
I do need to do the "stack and splay" and listen when I get a chance. Just for reference.
Nah! And I'm not sure the level of the local talent, so may actually want a little interference...
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(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160706/de169ea7ce7f19359094d50ee14d1d2e.jpg)
Went super wide with them and actually sounded great. The "Seam" was really minimal and I covered the whole street quite well.
I definitely want to try the SM80 with the Th118. We were definitely lacking in low mid output. I think the 118 would have helped. Our EAW SB750 subs sound great 90hz and below but just sound "woofy" and loose when I tried to crossover higher.
Overall I was VERY impressed with sound quality and output of the SM80. Considering you can put this on a stand and sling it around by yourself it is really really an impressive box.
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Overall I was VERY impressed with sound quality and output of the SM80. Considering you can put this on a stand and sling it around by yourself it is really really an impressive box.
I totally agree. The quality and SPL I can get out of these are very surprising for the size. I use DBH218's when I use them for mains and they work quite well. The only drawback is that you have to have subs with them for music. However they were excellent by themselves for a solo comedy act. 650 ppl in a 10k Sq ft room. I did need fills for the sides as they had seating behind the mains off to the side.
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I totally agree. The quality and SPL I can get out of these are very surprising for the size. I use DBH218's when I use them for mains and they work quite well. The only drawback is that you have to have subs with them for music. However they were excellent by themselves for a solo comedy act. 650 ppl in a 10k Sq ft room. I did need fills for the sides as they had seating behind the mains off to the side.
I pretty much always use subs for live music, so not a problem. I think I did had a little too high expectations that they would replace a kf650. They actually came pretty close but just couldn't get it down low. Mid and high actually probably outran 650's. Considering I can put these on a pole and lift then solo, etc, I am still REALLY impressed. I just need reasonable expectations.
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We cross our TH 118/SM 80 at 130Hz. It outperforms any KF 650z rig I have ever used.
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We cross our TH 118/SM 80 at 130Hz. It outperforms any KF 650z rig I have ever used.
Hmmm. Yeah, I think we had it crossed at 150, I'll try lowering
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Here are the actual HP/LP settings I use. This is used with original Crown ITech DSP.
SM80:
HP Butterworth 12db 125Hz
TH118:
LP Bessel 24db 130Hz
Delay 1.25ms
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I think I had my xovers at 130 and 110. 24 db Butterworth. The subs get very efficient at 110 so the acoustical xover sounded higher.
I don't have smaart so I use a sine wave to hear what's happening around the xover points. Ears may not be as accurate but they're free.
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We cross our TH 118/SM 80 at 130Hz. It outperforms any KF 650z rig I have ever used.
Kemper Watson would probably say the same-he went from a 650 rig to an SM80 rig as well.
Best regards,
John
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...went from a 650 rig to an SM80 rig as well.
So did I.
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Many BE's that run the system are concerned with the tunings I use. They fear there will be lack of and or sloppy low mid punch. Once they start to drive all worries are lost. Some end up cutting in the 100-120Hz range.
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Here are the actual HP/LP settings I use. This is used with original Crown ITech DSP.
SM80:
HP Butterworth 12db 125Hz
TH118:
LP Bessel 24db 130Hz
Delay 1.25ms
Interesting. I may try re-tuning ours...I am crossing a little lower than that, around 100 Hz, and using a steeper roll off on the SM 80. Sounds fine like it is, but could maybe squeeze a little extra low-mid juice out of it.
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Here are the actual HP/LP settings I use. This is used with original Crown ITech DSP.
SM80:
HP Butterworth 12db 125Hz
TH118:
LP Bessel 24db 130Hz
Delay 1.25ms
Jonathan:
Are you also reversing the polarity of the subs? Danley has suggested that it sometimes helps. Also, isn't it the tops that you are delaying 1.25ms, rather than the subs - to compensate for the delay caused by the horn path of the TH118? According to Danley, the delayed response of the sub should be somewhere in the range of 3-20 ms. 1,25ms seems short - I think our tops have a delay set around 5ms.
See FAQ #10 on Danley's page.
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/support/frequently-asked-questions/#question_10
Thanks!
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Jonathan:
Are you also reversing the polarity of the subs? Danley has suggested that it sometimes helps. Also, isn't it the tops that you are delaying 1.25ms, rather than the subs - to compensate for the delay caused by the horn path of the TH118? According to Danley, the delayed response of the sub should be somewhere in the range of 3-20 ms. 1,25ms seems short - I think our tops have a delay set around 5ms.
See FAQ #10 on Danley's page.
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/support/frequently-asked-
questions/#question_10
Thanks!
The polarity is flipped on the TH 118 and yes that delay setting is for the TH 118. We spent a better part of a day tuning the system with SMAART 7 in an open air environment. I also have several EQ filters engaged on both the SM80 and TH 118. Again these tunings were developed using Crown ITech DSP.