Post by: Eric Hermle on January 29, 2009, 12:52:59 AM
I've posted some of this on the LAB Lounge, but thought I would try in Church sound forum now that I'm registered.
I've been asked to assist my church's tech leader to come up with idea's in preparation for building a new youth room. It's a project our pastor has wanted since the previous youth space was appropriated for sanctuary expansion.
The new buildings meeting space will be either 30'X 30' or 30'X 40'(updated info) with a 10' flat ceiling height(we're trying to talk them into slightly vaulted ceilings). There will be an extra 10' in length(making the whole building either 30'X 40' or 30'X 50') for the youth pastors office, a snack room/bar and a storage room. Length will run east to west with the offices being on the east end(nearest to electrical source) with no windows on the south and windows on the west and north(not positive about the north side).
This will be a multipurpose room with worship/praise for youth being held in it besides other uses. We have to figure out all our wiring and other design needs before it's built and to do so, we need to pretty much figure the SR system out. I was hoping for normal directional boxes but the pastor is pretty intent on in-ceiling distributed speakers(Community Cloud or Atlas, etc.) so as to not block any line of sight. The worship band(1 or 2 acoustic guitars, 1 electric guitar, 1 bass guitar, drums(probably v-drums to start, but I'll bet a box of Ritz crackers they'll end up with acoustics) and 1 to 5 or so vocals on a portable stage(perhaps something like Road Ready's intellistage.
My concern is with the in-ceiling speakers. If enough coverage is provided for listening to recorded music or video to evenly fill the whole room, won't they have feed back problems when it comes to open mics on a stage against the south wall?
We don't even have a budget for gear yet as the building is taking all or most of the money the church has in the building fund for said project. However, to plan for it... We need to get some general idea's now. I've thought of speakers on a stick(possibly sub with a pocket pole mounted) at the corners of the stage(perhaps 8'to 10' deep x 12' or 16' wide)turned slightly outward and maybe a single fill speaker at front/center of the stage. Then I saw Renkus Heinz website and their ILive set up. Granted that quite likely might be more money than we can spend on speakers, but I like the idea of them.
Any idea's, recommendations(including recommended reading as long as it's not novel long... I think I have a.d.h.d.
)?I'm reading through my Yamaha SR handbook and Live Sound Reinforcement by Scott Hunter to see if I can find some relatively simple answers.
As far as any other gear, we'll probably end up with B******* or something mixer(or maybe I'll donate my M***** 1604vlz went I upgrade(man, I want that APB prorack!) and a 1/3 oct. eq or 3. I'm assuming there will be a couple of floor wedges for voice and acoustic(jbl jrx112m?).
Now I'm finished. Honest.
Eric
Post by: Brad Weber on January 29, 2009, 09:10:32 AM
The coverage and feedbacl issue can probably be addressed pretty easily, just put the speakers over the stage area on a switch or volume control so they can be turned off or down when the band plays.
Traditional ceiling speakers and live music don't usually go together real well, they're often a good solution for under balcony fill and such but then you are getting much of the low frequency information from the main system and simply filling the rest. But they rarely provide the output and full range response that you might want for a band. There are some high quality ceiling speakers (Tannoy, JBL 200 and 300 series, etc.) and ceiling subs that can actually sound pretty good but they are not cheap and the subs can really rattle the ceiling.
I would say that with that size room much of it may depend on stage levels. If guitar, keys and bass have amps on stage and you do have acoustic drums, then you may not need the sound system to do much more than carry the vocals and some fill. But at the same time, you may also have trouble overcoming some of the stage levels. If you use electronic drums, run keys direct and run the guitar and bass direct or through inline boxes and then direct, then the system won't have to overcome the stage levels but it will have to reproduce everything. This also sort of gets into what you are doing for monitors, as they can add to the stage levels.
The Renkus-Heinz IC Live might be a nice solution, but it also sounds like it would be well beyond your budget. But something like a QSC HPR152i over a HPR181i sub on each side might be a good option.
I know you're already thinking about acoustical treatment and I don't know the facility floor plan, but do consider sound isolation for those around, above and below you.
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on January 29, 2009, 10:11:52 AM
| Eric Hermle wrote on Thu, 29 January 2009 05:52 |
The new buildings meeting space will be either 30'X 30' or 30'X 40'(updated info) with a 10' flat ceiling height(we're trying to talk them into slightly vaulted ceilings). There will be an extra 10' in length(making the whole building either 30'X 40' or 30'X 50') for the youth pastors office, a snack room/bar and a storage room. Length will run east to west with the offices being on the east end(nearest to electrical source) with no windows on the south and windows on the west and north(not positive about the north side). This will be a multipurpose room with worship/praise for youth being held in it besides other uses. We have to figure out all our wiring and other design needs before it's built and to do so, we need to pretty much figure the SR system out. I was hoping for normal directional boxes but the pastor is pretty intent on in-ceiling distributed speakers(Community Cloud or Atlas, etc.) so as to not block any line of sight. |
Interesting. I'm working on a 24 x 44 youth room with a 10 foot ceiling.
Here's a picture of the seating area, which we built this summer:
You can see a tip of the snack bar on the far right.
| Quote: |
The worship band(1 or 2 acoustic guitars, 1 electric guitar, 1 bass guitar, drums(probably v-drums to start, but I'll bet a box of Ritz crackers they'll end up with acoustics) and 1 to 5 or so vocals on a portable stage(perhaps something like Road Ready's intellistage. My concern is with the in-ceiling speakers. If enough coverage is provided for listening to recorded music or video to evenly fill the whole room, won't they have feed back problems when it comes to open mics on a stage against the south wall? |
I see several problems. One is that they may destroy the front-ward focus of the room. Another is that the back of the room will get sound with no delay, added to live sound that will probably be somewhat loud and delayed by 30-40 msec. Instant echo! Of course, if there are ceiling speakers over the performance are, they will tend to cause problems with feedback.
In the above location I'm planning to use 2 EV ZX-1 speakers hung from the ceiling to cover the seating area. I'm intentionally keeping the sound system a little small so that the kids, who will be operating it, will be less likely to hurt their ears.
Post by: Eric Hermle on January 30, 2009, 01:39:42 AM
I just have negative feelings about in-ceiling speakers. The youth group have gotten so used to having praise & worship times in the sanctuary running through srx715's and community subs, I think moving to the new room with out having something that's got some reasonable kick to it will just knock the wind out of their sails.
And while the ceiling mount idea is great when the seating and configuration of the room is pretty much fixed, I'm still thinking speaker on a pole, on a sub for each side gives more possibilities for different uses of the room. And I'm thinking if we buy powered instead of separate amps and speakers, all we'll have to do is wire several pairs of xlr's (both send and return) around the room next to duplex's and it would be very multipurpose.
Anything I'm missing? Not thinking about?
Thanks,
Eric
Post by: Bill Skipwith on January 30, 2009, 01:49:47 PM
I personally would stay away from in the ceiling speakers for what you described.
Sort of unconventional however, it's very inexpensive and it works
Post by: John Fiorello on January 31, 2009, 04:06:41 PM
The vibe for a room with a stage feels like the music should be coming from the stage. *if you're using live amps for everything but vox on stage and don't put everything in the pa, it will help with the energy, BUT it still won't sound as 'cool' as the sound coming from the stage.
I'm running through my head to think if I have ever seen a youth room with multiple celling speakers, but I really haven't.
And speakers on sticks will still sound great, especially with subs, and won't obstruct views if they're on the outside of the stage (unless your stage will be the entire wall)
And if you put the stage on the short wall, there shouldn't be sight line issues (though you may want a way to block the windows, especially if eventually you're gonna add lighting to the stage). And if you went, like Arnold, with the EV's (maybe the zx'4s for mains and zx'1s for monitors) and hung them properly, you would get rid of sticks completely, which would help if kids were swung out wide enough that a stick would block a media screen on the back wall.
Where are you planing on setting up the FOH?
JF
Post by: Eric Hermle on January 31, 2009, 07:26:13 PM
And while I was cleaning up for our praise band warm ups tonight, I wondered how it would work if the stage half of the room(15'or 20'X 30'w) had slightly vaulted ceilings, and the back half(either 15'or 20'X 30'w) had flat ceilings. I was imagining a video projector just a bit in front of the split(with another Real Trap or two just behind it to catch slaps and built up bass)and a curtain rail on the lead edge of the flat section so the room could be divided to serve additional duty when not in praise & worship mode.
E.
Post by: Eric Hermle on February 01, 2009, 03:35:25 AM
Thanks,
E.
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on February 01, 2009, 08:24:38 AM
| Eric Hermle wrote on Sun, 01 February 2009 08:35 |
While I'm at it(and up late), in a room that's 30' wide and 30' or 40' in length... will speakers that have hf horns with a 90 degree horizontal dispersion work well or should we be looking for something in the 60 degree H configuration? Any one have opinions on that? |
What you need to do is lay out a scaled drawing of your room, including seating area and performance area. Then place an outline of the speaker's coverage area over it at various locations and orientations, and see how things line up.
Pay attention to minimizing and balancing the distance between the speaker and the seating locations at given distances from the speaker.
Laying out radial arcs on the coverage outlne, each arc centered at the location of the speaker, can help.
You also want the speakers to be as much as possible between the seating area and the performing area and of course facing away from the performance area.
If you can meet all of these constraints, then life can be sweet. If you have to compromise, first compromise some of the more extreme seating locations.
Post by: Brad Weber on February 01, 2009, 03:24:52 PM
| Eric Hermle wrote on Sat, 31 January 2009 19:26 |
I was thinking something like Real Traps at the wall to wall and wall to ceiling intersections to suck any nasty bass gotten by having mix position close to a wall and/or corner. |
I believe that only the Mini Traps are actually tested and rated for smoke and flame spread. The claim that "Although MicroTraps and MondoTraps were not tested, they are constructed identically so testing would show the same results." is absolutely valueless in this type of application, you definitely do not want to be using any products that are not tested and rated.
I also suggest you consider that the application is not a studio control room or a home theater with a limited listening area but rather a live performance space with a large listener area. So don't try applying studio or home theater acoustics to it, they are very different applications.
RealTraps makes some good products but please be wary of some of their claims and numbers. RealTraps states on their web site that their test methods differed from the standard methods and recent research shows that testing in configurations other than that on which the standards are based, including mounting, sample placement, gaps between individual panels, etc. can have a significant impact on the results. This is reflected in some of RealTraps' results, absorption coefficient values over 1.0 are not possible except as anomalies of the test procedure and values greater than 2 as reported by RealTraps reflect severe anomalies in the testing procedure (based on the comments and photos on their web site likely resulting from having both front and back sides exposed, placing the units spaced apart rather than as one continuous surface and using non-standard mounting). Even the comment regarding it being comparative versus absolute testing are questionable as the test methods apparently employed definitely seem to favor their products. Also, I trust data based on a certified report from a qualified, independent lab much more than data any manufacturer tested on their own.
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on February 02, 2009, 08:04:23 AM
| Eric Hermle wrote on Sun, 01 February 2009 00:26 |
I was thinking something like Real Traps at the wall to wall and wall to ceiling intersections to suck any nasty bass gotten by having mix position close to a wall and/or corner. |
The seating area we built this summer (see picture in earlier post) had amazing positive effects on the room's acoustics. Historically, the room has been very reverberant. There's a sense of intimacy and 2-way sound connection between the seating area and the performance area that I never expected.
BTW, the seating area was made up of 23/32 CDX over an 18 gauge steel 2x4 frame with heavy padding and commercial carpeting over the plywood.
Post by: Kent Thompson on February 02, 2009, 03:30:56 PM
Post by: Brad Weber on February 02, 2009, 04:11:17 PM