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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Mario Pollio on September 09, 2014, 11:54:38 AM
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I know now the SRX700 series from JBL is discontinued and replaced with the STX800 series, which supposedly isn't as good as the SRX700 series was. I was wondering what other speakers out there are as good or better than the SRX700 series was for around the same price? The SRX722's seemed like fantastic speakers, especially with the compression driver with a 4 inch voice coil and 2 inch exit. The throw on those were probably fantastic. Everything coming out now seems to be in favor of being cheaper and lighter, with sound quality suffering as a result. Maybe not suffering that much, but it doesn't seem as high on the priority list.
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I know now the SRX700 series from JBL is discontinued and replaced with the STX800 series, which supposedly isn't as good as the SRX700 series was. I was wondering what other speakers out there are as good or better than the SRX700 series was for around the same price? The SRX722's seemed like fantastic speakers, especially with the compression driver with a 4 inch voice coil and 2 inch exit. The throw on those were probably fantastic. Everything coming out now seems to be in favor of being cheaper and lighter, with sound quality suffering as a result. Maybe not suffering that much, but it doesn't seem as high on the priority list.
The SRX700 series was discontinued because of the single-source nature of neodymium and the resulting monopoly price.
Reports on the STX800 series by participants on the PSW forums have been very good. The STX are neither cheaper nor lighter than the SRX700 series.
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Yeah, the STX 800 are actually heavier and more expensive than the 700 series, but they are the closest thing to an "equivalent".
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The SRX700 series was discontinued because of the single-source nature of neodymium and the resulting monopoly price.
Reports on the STX800 series by participants on the PSW forums have been very good. The STX are neither cheaper nor lighter than the SRX700 series.
I know they aren't cheaper or lighter, but from what I've read, they use older drivers because of the shortage of neodymium. While they aren't cheaper or lighter, I've read that while they perform good, they don't perform quite as well as the SRX700 series did.
Yeah, the STX 800 are actually heavier and more expensive than the 700 series, but they are the closest thing to an "equivalent".
While being heavier and more expensive, they don't at least match the performance of the discontinued SRX speakers?
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I know they aren't cheaper or lighter, but from what I've read, they use older drivers because of the shortage of neodymium. While they aren't cheaper or lighter, I've read that while they perform good, they don't perform quite as well as the SRX700 series did.
While being heavier and more expensive, they don't at least match the performance of the discontinued SRX speakers?
There is a thread in the Product Reviews forum about the STX.
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Just read through some of the reviews. It sounds as though they are still fantastic speakers. The STX835's sound very appealing. It looks like they all for an amplifier that can put out at least 3,200 watts per channel on a 4 ohm load to get the most out of them. That's a lot of power. What amplifiers are best suited for this? I'm sure the Crown I-tech 9000HD would be a perfect match for a pair of these, but they are enormously expensive. What other amplifiers can put out that kind of power that would work well with these?
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Just read through some of the reviews. It sounds as though they are still fantastic speakers. The STX835's sound very appealing. It looks like they all for an amplifier that can put out at least 3,200 watts per channel on a 4 ohm load to get the most out of them. That's a lot of power. What amplifiers are best suited for this? I'm sure the Crown I-tech 9000HD would be a perfect match for a pair of these, but they are enormously expensive. What other amplifiers can put out that kind of power that would work well with these?
How loud do you need to go? That determines how much power you'll need, plus whatever headroom margin you're comfortable with.
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How loud do you need to go? That determines how much power you'll need, plus whatever headroom margin you're comfortable with.
Loud enough for school gyms and auditoriums for dances of up to 400+ kids. There are also instances where I'd be doing political functions where local politicians will be speaking to large crowds of people, many times outdoors and would like to be able to hear the speakers clearly in the back of the crowd. How many people exactly, I can't really say, but definitely a few hundred.
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Loud enough for school gyms and auditoriums for dances of up to 400+ kids. There are also instances where I'd be doing political functions where local politicians will be speaking to large crowds of people, many times outdoors and would like to be able to hear the speakers clearly in the back of the crowd. How many people exactly, I can't really say, but definitely a few hundred.
Heck, in a gym with the reverberant field and only 400 people, JBL's PRX gear would be fine :)
Seriously (okay, I think the PRX 718XLF cabinets kind of suck, but that's because I'm used to having six SRX 728s subs...)
I run my SRX system (4-725, 6-728s) from iT8K amps and do 2,000-3,000 people *outdoors* all the time.
Then again, if I were looking for a JBL SRX replacement these days, I think I would go with Danley instead. More money per cabinet, but far fewer cabinets. Think SM80 and TH115...
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
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Heck, in a gym with the reverberant field and only 400 people, JBL's PRX gear would be fine :)
Seriously (okay, I think the PRX 718XLF cabinets kind of suck, but that's because I'm used to having six SRX 728s subs...)
I run my SRX system (4-725, 6-728s) from iT8K amps and do 2,000-3,000 people *outdoors* all the time.
Then again, if I were looking for a JBL SRX replacement these days, I think I would go with Danley instead. More money per cabinet, but far fewer cabinets. Think SM80 and TH115...
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
That's what I currently have actually. 2 PRX615m's and 2 PRX618S-XLF'S. I was originally thinking of getting the new EV ETX gear, but I'm thinking I might as well make the upgrade substantial. I have heard the ETX-18sp and was very impressed. The top cabs didn't seem much better than my current prx tops.
How do the I-tech amps do with subs? I read some thread in here that they "suck" for subs and make the bass sound thin.
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That's what I currently have actually. 2 PRX615m's and 2 PRX618S-XLF'S. I was originally thinking of getting the new EV ETX gear, but I'm thinking I might as well make the upgrade substantial. I have heard the ETX-18sp and was very impressed. The top cabs didn't seem much better than my current prx tops.
How do the I-tech amps do with subs? I read some thread in here that they "suck" for subs and make the bass sound thin.
ETX would be a downgrade from SRX afaik.
I run iTechs and old Macrotechs on subs, no issues with the iTechs.
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That's what I currently have actually. 2 PRX615m's and 2 PRX618S-XLF'S. I was originally thinking of getting the new EV ETX gear, but I'm thinking I might as well make the upgrade substantial. I have heard the ETX-18sp and was very impressed. The top cabs didn't seem much better than my current prx tops.
How do the I-tech amps do with subs? I read some thread in here that they "suck" for subs and make the bass sound thin.
SRX728S with I-Tech 8000s. Pretty sweet combination. If they sound thin (well, other then the floor of the 728s to begin with) you're doing something wrong.
I would be happy with STX828S and IT9KHDs. Of course, getting some G28s would be pleasant as well.
-Ray
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My ITech 6000's do a great job on my 728's/ TH 118's. Maybe you were thinking of the XTI line of amps?
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ETX would be a downgrade from SRX afaik.
I run iTechs and old Macrotechs on subs, no issues with the iTechs.
From the SRX, it would definitely be a downgrade. The ETX subs seem like an upgrade from the PRX line of speakers, but more of a lateral move when it comes to the tops.
SRX728S with I-Tech 8000s. Pretty sweet combination. If they sound thin (well, other then the floor of the 728s to begin with) you're doing something wrong.
I would be happy with STX828S and IT9KHDs. Of course, getting some G28s would be pleasant as well.
-Ray
I found the thread where they were said to sound thin on sub duty. It actually wasn't from these forums, it was from another forum I'm a part of. Post #4
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/838278-need-confirmation-about-crown-s-i-tech-series.html
Here's the post copy and pasted
"From the various pro sound engineers I know, the I-tech series are horrible for bass duties. They have a low dampening factor. The bass sounds really thin and weak. Go with something else, like a lab gruppen. There was another amp linked in a thread a while back that had like 12000watts in a 2 rackspace design, and it was a real 12000 watts. Bottom line:don't go with the I-tech."
Sounds like a load of crap to me, but figured I'd ask over here anyway. He lost me when he said they have a low damping factor.
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My ITech 6000's do a great job on my 728's/ TH 118's. Maybe you were thinking of the XTI line of amps?
Those I definitely heard about them not performing that well for sub duty. I owned an XTi4000 about 6 or so years ago for a pair of dual 15 inch EV's and was pleased with it.
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There's definitely different tricks that can be used for making subs rock, but -- let's see, my stage at Seattle's PrideFest this year, we were running our same 6-728s with 1 IT8K and 2 IT6ks -- (my other two 8Ks were on FOH duty so I could run 5/VT88s/side) -- to say there was rolling waves of bass over the stage into the crowd would be an understatement. The promoter, DJs, the client-- all were very very happy. Several thousand people. (Although only maybe 1,000 were close enough to the stage to really feel the bass-- edm will do that. :( )
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There's definitely different tricks that can be used for making subs rock, but -- let's see, my stage at Seattle's PrideFest this year, we were running our same 6-728s with 1 IT8K and 2 IT6ks -- (my other two 8Ks were on FOH duty so I could run 5/VT88s/side) -- to say there was rolling waves of bass over the stage into the crowd would be an understatement. The promoter, DJs, the client-- all were very very happy. Several thousand people. (Although only maybe 1,000 were close enough to the stage to really feel the bass-- edm will do that. :( )
6 728's is no joke. 12 with 6 per side would have been awesome!
Wish I was there to hear that. I have no need for rig that size, but if I hit lotto, I would probably own something like that for the hell of it.
Right now, if I'm ever able to swing it, I'd like a pair of STX828S's and a pair of STX835's with the 835's running on a IT9KHD, and the subs running on a IT12kHD. The cost of the speakers isn't really what is making that hard, it's the cost of the amps. Last time I checked, a IT12KHD was about 10 grand!
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Last time I checked, a IT12KHD was about 10 grand!
List. Smart shoppers can find it for much less. I mean, right now on eBay there's used ones for $3,575, and (presumably) new ones for $5,699. [Amusing: In the "purchase history" on the $5,699 listing, the last one they sold was July 2013... for $3,499. I'd be like "give it to me for that." Haha.]
-Ray
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List. Smart shoppers can find it for much less. I mean, right now on eBay there's used ones for $3,575, and (presumably) new ones for $5,699. [Amusing: In the "purchase history" on the $5,699 listing, the last one they sold was July 2013... for $3,499. I'd be like "give it to me for that." Haha.]
-Ray
I finished racking up 32 ITech 12000HD last week. Waiting on the next batch of 8 to arrive next week.
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I finished racking up 32 ITech 12000HD last week. Waiting on the next batch of 8 to arrive next week.
oooh those last 8 got diverted to my shop. Sorry 'bout your bad luck......... :-P
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The SRX700 series was discontinued because of the single-source nature of neodymium and the resulting monopoly price.
Tim, I keep hearing this on this forum and I keep questioning it. How do you explain the Peavey PR series which are neo and dirt cheap. And all the Eminence (and other aftermarket) drivers that are still using neo. And all the car audio drivers still using neo. If so many other oem's are still using neo and competitive (or down right cheap) prices, why couldn't JBL do it?
And I did read the Popular Science article on the rare-earth elements scarcity a year or more ago, so I do know what you're referring to regarding neo.
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I finished racking up 32 ITech 12000HD last week. Waiting on the next batch of 8 to arrive next week.
Arn't you glad the new HD's don't have "iTech smell"
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Tim, I keep hearing this on this forum and I keep questioning it. How do you explain the Peavey PR series which are neo and dirt cheap. And all the Eminence (and other aftermarket) drivers that are still using neo. And all the car audio drivers still using neo. If so many other oem's are still using neo and competitive (or down right cheap) prices, why couldn't JBL do it?
And I did read the Popular Science article on the rare-earth elements scarcity a year or more ago, so I do know what you're referring to regarding neo.
That was JBL's stated reason. You'd have to ask them if there was some other motivation. I suspect JBL was concerned that if a new large scale user of neo came to the market, they'd be priced out. Think high speed trains and electric cars... JBL is still using neodymium magnet structures in certain lines (VerTec, Venue Precision).
It's not just that neo is scarce, but that it comes principally from a single, nationalistic source who can manipulate export regulations and tariffs and that it's a really nasty, dirty business to take from ore to product. Green it ain't, and that makes it more expensive to extract and process in some of the other nations that have ore reserves.
Likely Harman was concerned about uncertainty in pricing and availability affecting their ability to manufacture their products and opted to go back to ceramic magnets and up their sonic game via other aspects of loudspeaker system design.
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Arn't you glad the new HD's don't have "iTech smell"
I did notice they were rather odor-free...
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I know now the SRX700 series from JBL is discontinued and replaced with the STX800 series, which supposedly isn't as good as the SRX700 series was.
The SRX722's seemed like fantastic speakers, especially with the compression driver with a 4 inch voice coil and 2 inch exit. The throw on those were probably fantastic.
I run a fairly good sized SRX system, and I have had many opportunities to listen to the STX line of cabinets, enough so that I can make a good comparison between both lines. I also use 2242 drivers in a pair of subs that run side by side with SRX718s every day of the week. So let's set the record straight.
The drivers JBL is now using in the STX800 series cabinets are not new to the world of pro sound, or are they antiquated designs. The drivers being used are the equal to any driver being used by any manufacture of quality cabinets. The drivers are also used in other JBL pro level cabinets, VOT cabinets, etc., and have proven themselves to be reliable, powerful, and faithful reproducers of clear quality sound. There is also no equal to the STX835 in the SRX series of cabinets, and if I had to do without, or chose to sell all of my SRX725s tomorrow, the 835 is the cabinet I would replace them with. Incredible sound from those 835's, even in passive mode.
I don't know where you're hearing the STX line is not an equal to the SRX line, but whoever is telling you that couldn't be more wrong. I would imagine it would be the word of someone who has no experience with either series of cabinets as is usually the case. Do what you think is best, but at the STX or SRX level of cabinets there are few equals IMO.
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List. Smart shoppers can find it for much less. I mean, right now on eBay there's used ones for $3,575, and (presumably) new ones for $5,699. [Amusing: In the "purchase history" on the $5,699 listing, the last one they sold was July 2013... for $3,499. I'd be like "give it to me for that." Haha.]
-Ray
That's a HUGE difference from list. Still expensive, but not outrageous like the list price.
I run a fairly good sized SRX system, and I have had many opportunities to listen to the STX line of cabinets, enough so that I can make a good comparison between both lines. I also use 2242 drivers in a pair of subs that run side by side with SRX718s every day of the week. So let's set the record straight.
The drivers JBL is now using in the STX800 series cabinets are not new to the world of pro sound, or are they antiquated designs. The drivers being used are the equal to any driver being used by any manufacture of quality cabinets. The drivers are also used in other JBL pro level cabinets, VOT cabinets, etc., and have proven themselves to be reliable, powerful, and faithful reproducers of clear quality sound. There is also no equal to the STX835 in the SRX series of cabinets, and if I had to do without, or chose to sell all of my SRX725s tomorrow, the 835 is the cabinet I would replace them with. Incredible sound from those 835's, even in passive mode.
I don't know where you're hearing the STX line is not an equal to the SRX line, but whoever is telling you that couldn't be more wrong. I would imagine it would be the word of someone who has no experience with either series of cabinets as is usually the case. Do what you think is best, but at the STX or SRX level of cabinets there are few equals IMO.
I was googling reviews for the STX speakers and remember reading that several times. Some reviews saying that the STX series uses old drivers which while good, weren't as good as the SRX drivers, and that the subs in the SRX line extended lower. It's good to hear from somebody who owns an SRX system and has heard both. I'd really like to snag a pair of 835's.
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That's a HUGE difference from list. Still expensive, but not outrageous like the list price.
I'm a relatively small operator and I agree that $4000 - $5500 for an amp is a little hard to swallow, but it's part of the system. The STX series has V5 presets for ITHD, and this is no small thing. With matching amps, you get speaker tunings done by the manufacturer, complete with speaker protection. The result is the best possible sound quality and longevity of your speaker investment.
I have purchased all of my ITHDs as B-stock, and that has helped with the sticker shock.
One last thought - I own all ITHD12Ks so I have matching units. If it were me, I wouldn't bother with the ITHD9K - having the same model means if one fails, you can pull another unit and re-purpose without having to worry about different settings or capabilities.
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[quote author=TJ (Tom) Cornish link=topic=151392.msg1388242#msg1388242
One last thought - I own all ITHD12Ks so I have matching units. If it were me, I wouldn't bother with the ITHD9K - having the same model means if one fails, you can pull another unit and re-purpose without having to worry about different settings or capabilities.
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It's funny you say that, I was just thinking that. The "street" price isn't that different anyway. The 9k is about $5,200 and the 12k is about $5,600.
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[quote author=TJ (Tom) Cornish link=topic=151392.msg1388242#msg1388242
One last thought - I own all ITHD12Ks so I have matching units. If it were me, I wouldn't bother with the ITHD9K - having the same model means if one fails, you can pull another unit and re-purpose without having to worry about different settings or capabilities.
It's funny you say that, I was just thinking that. The "street" price isn't that different anyway. The 9k is about $5,200 and the 12k is about $5,600.
In our case, all the JBL/Harman software for our rigs (VerTec) presume either IT12000HD or the IT 4x3500HD so it really didn't make sense to move down the line for the 10% savings. It also means we can cross-rent (either way) easily.
The big price jump is with the 4x3500...
At any rate, power is obscenely cheap. I remember back in the day when Peavey had all the "cover 3" advert pages in the magazines feature the CS800 and touting "99 cents per watt." For a very long time Peavey owned the buck-per-watt market, nobody else got within 35 cents of them. Today, Crown's flagship line is about 85 cents/watt at list price and includes very sophisticated BSS processing. My how things have changed...
TJ points out the important aspect, though. Using the "family" amplification, and processing designed by the manufacturer for the specific loudspeakers makes it all a "system". Much like l'Acoustic or d&b or now Nexo/Yamaha. Keeping things together as a system gives you access to meaningful manufacturer support, simplifies system configuration and setup and in general keeps things consistent. They've done most of the heavy lifting for us.
I'll have some pics of the HD rack builds in a couple of weeks (have a week long festival next week) and probably post them in the Basement. I'm "the shop guy" for this project and so far I'm fairly proud of how things are turning out. Ultimately I'm racking up 52 HD's plus some spares.
One small bit of background - when we were purchasing the first VerTec rig we still had power amp options and I got great advice from Dirk Schubert (Schubert Systems in Hollywood) and Dave Shadoan (Sound Image) regarding the ITechs and VerTec and JBL (Oh my!). Both were very generous with their time, patient with my inquiries, and I owe them another big Thank You for their assistance.
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If you really want SRX700 series, buy them. There are still brand new in the box 728 subs available in several places (including feeBay). Other members on here have mentioned knowing where new 722's are as well. Used can be hard to find, but they are out there. I recently purchased a used pair of 722's. We had been using SR4731's. They are stupidly huge and heavy compared to the 722. The size and weight savings with the 722's is a godsend to a bunch of middle aged guys many with physical issues. We're also now using my PLX amps from my dj rig for indoor shows rather than the 1850hd's they had (4 in a heavy wood rack!).
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If you really want SRX700 series, buy them. There are still brand new in the box 728 subs available in several places (including feeBay). Other members on here have mentioned knowing where new 722's are as well. Used can be hard to find, but they are out there. I recently purchased a used pair of 722's. We had been using SR4731's. They are stupidly huge and heavy compared to the 722. The size and weight savings with the 722's is a godsend to a bunch of middle aged guys many with physical issues. We're also now using my PLX amps from my dj rig for indoor shows rather than the 1850hd's they had (4 in a heavy wood rack!).
I just noticed there are a few places that still have them listed. Somebody Just re-listed a pair of SRX728's on Ebay brand new for $3,200. He's been trying to sell those for quite some time now.
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I just sold 2, 728's (new with Tuki covers) for $2400.
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I just noticed there are a few places that still have them listed. Somebody Just relished a pair of SRX728's on Ebay brand new for $3,200. He's been trying to sell those for quite some time now.
They have quite a few of them. Look at their feedback you'll see many sold. If you message them, they'll give a slightly better price - also a great price on new 828's as well.
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Just read through some of the reviews. It sounds as though they are still fantastic speakers. The STX835's sound very appealing. It looks like they all for an amplifier that can put out at least 3,200 watts per channel on a 4 ohm load to get the most out of them. That's a lot of power. What amplifiers are best suited for this? I'm sure the Crown I-tech 9000HD would be a perfect match for a pair of these, but they are enormously expensive. What other amplifiers can put out that kind of power that would work well with these?
From what I understand the STX828s can get along with less power than the SRX728s even though on paper they are rated the same - 1600/3200/6400.
As far as amps go - Itech 8000s and Itech 6000s are both good choices and with a lot of Vertec users upgrading to Itech HDs to take advantage of the new presets, there are a lot of them available used at good prices.
I just bought 6 STX828s, 6 STX835s and 8 Itech 6000s to run them. I havent unpacked the speakers yet - 1st gig is Sept 20 but Ill be sure to report back how it goes.
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I have a JBL STX 828S and am more than pleased with the perfomance.. Never owned an SRX though so can't comment on those..
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From what I understand the STX828s can get along with less power than the SRX728s even though on paper they are rated the same - 1600/3200/6400.
As far as amps go - Itech 8000s and Itech 6000s are both good choices and with a lot of Vertec users upgrading to Itech HDs to take advantage of the new presets, there are a lot of them available used at good prices.
I just bought 6 STX828s, 6 STX835s and 8 Itech 6000s to run them. I havent unpacked the speakers yet - 1st gig is Sept 20 but Ill be sure to report back how it goes.
Sounds like one hell of a sound system. Definitely report back on how it goes, I'd love to hear that set up.
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I've got an SRX / QSC system in the Marketplace. Let me know if it interests you. Turn key and ready to go.
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,152409.msg1397777.html#msg1397777
Terry
I know now the SRX700 series from JBL is discontinued and replaced with the STX800 series, which supposedly isn't as good as the SRX700 series was. I was wondering what other speakers out there are as good or better than the SRX700 series was for around the same price? The SRX722's seemed like fantastic speakers, especially with the compression driver with a 4 inch voice coil and 2 inch exit. The throw on those were probably fantastic. Everything coming out now seems to be in favor of being cheaper and lighter, with sound quality suffering as a result. Maybe not suffering that much, but it doesn't seem as high on the priority list.
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Tim, I keep hearing this on this forum and I keep questioning it. How do you explain the Peavey PR series which are neo and dirt cheap. And all the Eminence (and other aftermarket) drivers that are still using neo. And all the car audio drivers still using neo. If so many other oem's are still using neo and competitive (or down right cheap) prices, why couldn't JBL do it?
And I did read the Popular Science article on the rare-earth elements scarcity a year or more ago, so I do know what you're referring to regarding neo.
Nd prices have been in freefall for the last couple of years, but at the time it was sky high (around $400/kg) JBL discovered that they could sell their antiquated heavy ceramic magnet drivers for even more than than the Nd based ones by clever packaging and marketing, so now that the Nd prices are at a quarter of the peak, JBL are unlikely to change (and our backs will suffer accordingly).
M
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the reason why SRX owners aren't liking the STX is because they hate change.
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Nd prices have been in freefall for the last couple of years, but at the time it was sky high (around $400/kg) JBL discovered that they could sell their antiquated heavy ceramic magnet drivers for even more than than the Nd based ones by clever packaging and marketing, so now that the Nd prices are at a quarter of the peak, JBL are unlikely to change (and our backs will suffer accordingly).
M
Antiquated?
I think not.
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I really am surprised that there is no STX822, the SRX722 seemed really popular.
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Antiquated?
I think not.
I agree. Just because a driver doesn't use neo it doesn't mean it's an antique. I'll take ceramic over neo any day of the week, especially where JBL is concerned.
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I agree. Just because a driver doesn't use neo it doesn't mean it's an antique. I'll take ceramic over neo any day of the week, especially where JBL is concerned.
Why the dislike for Nd?. While the big boys with their chain motor lifted line arrays may not be too concerned
with weight issues, a weekend warrior lifting a 2446 on to a 3 way groundstack is sure going to appreciate a 2452.
BTW re the "antiquated" comment, the 2226 used in the STX appears in my 1998 JBL catalog, long before the 2265 used in the SRX. Backwards progress?.
M