ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Wireless and Communications => Topic started by: Debbie Dunkley on April 10, 2018, 11:07:20 am

Title: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 10, 2018, 11:07:20 am
Is there any reason why I should not place 2 Apple Airport Express routers next to each other - using one to run sound remotely to QU mixer and also to run DMX stage lights - the other to run a separate set of DMX lights using different ODE and iPad.??.....
I have only ever used one router at a time so I've never had to consider this and I don't want to cause conflicts.

Thanks guys.
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Rob Spence on April 10, 2018, 02:55:41 pm
My gut reaction is that yes they might mess each other up unless they explicitly are set up on different channels.

I would have em at least several inches separated.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 10, 2018, 02:57:55 pm
Any reason you can't run on same network?

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on April 10, 2018, 02:58:12 pm
Is there any reason why I should not place 2 Apple Airport Express routers next to each other - using one to run sound remotely to QU mixer and also to run DMX stage lights - the other to run a separate set of DMX lights using different ODE and iPad.??.....
I have only ever used one router at a time so I've never had to consider this and I don't want to cause conflicts.

Thanks guys.
That's not going to be a good situation.  Is there a reason you can't put your sound and lighting on the same wireless network?

Edit:  Beaten by Scott.
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 10, 2018, 03:18:15 pm
I have always run sound and lights through the same router using a switch.
However, I would like to be able to control a different set of lights in addition to this at certain shows from an iPad using the Luminair app which only has one universe. So I thought the easiest way to do this would be to completely separate the 2 systems so that 2 different Luminair apps could be used.
Both of my DMX ODE's  ( Enttec ODE and DMXking Pro 1) are set to DCHP right now but maybe if I issued a static IP address to each one, this might be a better way to solve the issue ???
As you all know - IP address assignment scares me - LOL !!
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Jordan Wolf on April 10, 2018, 04:21:45 pm
You could use static IPs and set up your devices on different network segments (192.168.1.x for audio, 192.168.2.x for lighting 1, 192.168.3.x for lighting 2).

More work up-front, but if your setup is always the same, you now have known variables and can work around them if you add other devices.
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: brian maddox on April 10, 2018, 06:10:22 pm
I have always run sound and lights through the same router using a switch.
However, I would like to be able to control a different set of lights in addition to this at certain shows from an iPad using the Luminair app which only has one universe. So I thought the easiest way to do this would be to completely separate the 2 systems so that 2 different Luminair apps could be used.
Both of my DMX ODE's  ( Enttec ODE and DMXking Pro 1) are set to DCHP right now but maybe if I issued a static IP address to each one, this might be a better way to solve the issue ???
As you all know - IP address assignment scares me - LOL !!

I have recently ventured into the Very Scary World of Static IP networking on a fairly large scale.

Turns out it's a pretty cool world.  They have Cake!  True Story!

The only thing you have to fear is fear itself.  And device conflicts.  But whatever....
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 10, 2018, 06:41:50 pm
I have recently ventured into the Very Scary World of Static IP networking on a fairly large scale.

Turns out it's a pretty cool world.  They have Cake!  True Story!

The only thing you have to fear is fear itself.  And device conflicts.  But whatever....

I missed the cake was too mesmerized by the penguins on unicorns.

Seriously there is nothing to it Debbie and we have gotten you through this before.

However I would take this opportunity to upgrade to a pro grade WAP (Ubiquity UniFi) it supports multiple SSID's.  You will have to get a little managed switch too because it will deconstruct the virtual networks (one for each SSID) and map them to physical ports.

In fact if you get it you can just plug it all in and load Teamviewer on your computer.  I can login and set it all up for you.
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: brian maddox on April 10, 2018, 09:03:05 pm
I missed the cake was too mesmerized by the penguins on unicorns.

Seriously there is nothing to it Debbie and we have gotten you through this before.

However I would take this opportunity to upgrade to a pro grade WAP (Ubiquity UniFi) it supports multiple SSID's.  You will have to get a little managed switch too because it will deconstruct the virtual networks (one for each SSID) and map them to physical ports.

In fact if you get it you can just plug it all in and load Teamviewer on your computer.  I can login and set it all up for you.

Is that an open offer? :)   

Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 10, 2018, 09:07:13 pm
I missed the cake was too mesmerized by the penguins on unicorns.

Seriously there is nothing to it Debbie and we have gotten you through this before.

However I would take this opportunity to upgrade to a pro grade WAP (Ubiquity UniFi) it supports multiple SSID's.  You will have to get a little managed switch too because it will deconstruct the virtual networks (one for each SSID) and map them to physical ports.

In fact if you get it you can just plug it all in and load Teamviewer on your computer.  I can login and set it all up for you.

I appreciate that Scott. I will look into the Ubiquity WAP's ......
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: brian maddox on April 10, 2018, 09:10:24 pm
I appreciate that Scott. I will look into the Ubiquity WAP's ......

The Ubiquity stuff is quite good.  Especially when you start wanting to run multiple SSIDs and networks off of it. 
Title: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Rob Spence on April 10, 2018, 09:51:04 pm
The Ubiquity stuff is quite good.  Especially when you start wanting to run multiple SSIDs and networks off of it.
Though I think you guys are making it way too complicated. As soon as I heard vlans...

Come on guys, Debbie has a dozen or two fixtures. None are complicated movers needing a pile of DMX addresses.

Her IP network has 6 devices on it.
Everything except the tablets should have fixed IP addresses.

Debbie, IP addresses are just like postal addresses.
For class C networks (what most little networks are), try this analogy

 xxx.yyy.sss.zzz as an address
zzz is the house number
sss is the street name
yyy is the zip
xxx is the country code

DHCP assigns an address to me when I park my RV in your driveway. When I move on and park in Scottís driveway, the local DHCP servers gives me a new address local to him.

You already have one fixed address, the LAN port on your Airport Express. You also may have fixed (known as static) address in your QU.
All you need to do is assign fixed addresses to your DMX dongles then you can choose the right one for the tablet you are using.

The only thing you need be concerned about is to choose static IPs that are not in the group being handed out by the DHCP server in the AE. You can define which ones are handed out by using the Airport Utility.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 10, 2018, 10:23:23 pm
Though I think you guys are making it way too complicated. As soon as I heard vlans...

Come on guys, Debbie has a dozen or two fixtures. None are complicated movers needing a pile of DMX addresses.

Her IP network has 6 devices on it.
Everything except the tablets should have fixed IP addresses.

Debbie, IP addresses are just like postal addresses.
For class C networks (what most little networks are), try this analogy

 xxx.yyy.sss.zzz as an address
zzz is the house number
sss is the street name
yyy is the zip
xxx is the country code

DHCP assigns an address to me when I park my RV in your driveway. When I move on and park in Scottís driveway, the local DHCP servers gives me a new address local to him.

You already have one fixed address, the LAN port on your Airport Express. You also may have fixed (known as static) address in your QU.
All you need to do is assign fixed addresses to your DMX dongles then you can choose the right one for the tablet you are using.

The only thing you need be concerned about is to choose static IPs that are not in the group being handed out by the DHCP server in the AE. You can define which ones are handed out by using the Airport Utility.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

yes Rob, my set up is pretty straightforward.

I have some confusion regarding this.
I have fixed IP addresses on my QU mixers but I have DHCP/Broadcast set on my two art net ODE's. If I were to assign fixed addresses to each of my artnet ODE's, how would the iPads that I use know which set of lights to control if both sets are connected to the same router? The iPad only distinguishes between router network names - doesn't it?.
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 10, 2018, 10:40:17 pm
Though I think you guys are making it way too complicated. As soon as I heard vlans...

Come on guys, Debbie has a dozen or two fixtures. None are complicated movers needing a pile of DMX addresses.

Her IP network has 6 devices on it.
Everything except the tablets should have fixed IP addresses.

Debbie, IP addresses are just like postal addresses.
For class C networks (what most little networks are), try this analogy

 xxx.yyy.sss.zzz as an address
zzz is the house number
sss is the street name
yyy is the zip
xxx is the country code

DHCP assigns an address to me when I park my RV in your driveway. When I move on and park in Scottís driveway, the local DHCP servers gives me a new address local to him.

You already have one fixed address, the LAN port on your Airport Express. You also may have fixed (known as static) address in your QU.
All you need to do is assign fixed addresses to your DMX dongles then you can choose the right one for the tablet you are using.

The only thing you need be concerned about is to choose static IPs that are not in the group being handed out by the DHCP server in the AE. You can define which ones are handed out by using the Airport Utility.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Rob -

Her controllers use some type of broadcast protocol.  Can't have two in the same network.  That's why I suggested two SSID
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: frank kayser on April 12, 2018, 04:59:52 pm
Rob -

Her controllers use some type of broadcast protocol.  Can't have two in the same network.  That's why I suggested two SSID


ARP/Unicast, I believe.  IP addresses are really irrelevant on my Enttec.
frank
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 12, 2018, 05:26:51 pm

ARP/Unicast, I believe.  IP addresses are really irrelevant on my Enttec.
frank

Frank - So two can live in the same collision domain?  The software has a way to map it to the right mac/controller?
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: frank kayser on April 12, 2018, 11:09:42 pm
Frank - So two can live in the same collision domain?  The software has a way to map it to the right mac/controller?
Hi Scott,
I wish I could answer that definitively. I *think* so.  Enttec configuration software *can* identify the various Enttec controllers, but in Debbie's case, with multiple ODE manufacturers, I'd say the chances are slim.  Then again, it may be a plus. Above my pay grade.


My last attempt to get all that sorted was about nine months ago when the Unifi controller at the time was still having trouble with their unicast handling.  Also, I was just dealing with a single universe, and was running multiple VLANs, so I had a built in workaround just by adding another VLAN.  Since then, I haven't had the need or time to get back to it, unfortunately.
frank
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: James Paul on April 16, 2018, 04:02:40 am
Is there any reason why I should not place 2 Apple Airport Express routers next to each other.....

From the Apple APE set-up guide :
Best Locations for AirPort Express
The following recommendations can help your AirPort Express achieve the best wireless range
and network coverage.
     Place your AirPort Express in an open area where there are few obstructions, such as large
pieces of furniture or walls. Place it away from metallic surfaces.
     Avoid placing your AirPort Express behind furniture or inside cabinets.
     Donít lay your AirPort Express on its side. Donít place your AirPort Express in areas surrounded by metal surfaces on three or more sides.
     If you put your AirPort Express in an entertainment center with your stereo equipment,
donít surround AirPort Express with audio, video, or power cables. Place your AirPort Express
so the cables are to one side. Keep as much space as possible between AirPort Express and
the cables.
     Place your AirPort Express at least 25 feet (8 meters) from any microwave oven, 2.4 GHz
cordless phone, or other source of interference.
The following items can cause interference with Wi-Fi communication:
   Microwave ovens
   Direct Satellite Service (DSS) radio frequency leakage
   The original coaxial cable that may come with a satellite dish. Contact the device
manufacturer and get newer cables.
   Electrical devices such as power lines, electrical railroad tracks, and power stations.
   Cordless telephones that operate in the 2.4 GHz range. If you have problems with your
phone or AirPort communication, change the channel that your AirPort Express uses.
   Adjacent base stations using nearby channels. For example, if device A is set to channel
1, device B should be set to channel 6 or 11. For best results, use channel 1, 6, or 11 when
operating your device in the 2.4 GHz range.
    The farther away the interference source, the less likely it is to cause a problem.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

Though conventional wisdom would suggest best avoid direct stacked or adjacent placement, in practice (IME) though doable, not preferable. Best allow some distance of say a 24" or greater.

Another plus one for the Ubiquiti UniFi AP AC products, and fixed IPs for your digital mixers, and ARTNET/DMX dongles via ENNTEC and DMXking utility software, with DHCP for tablets and computers. 

May I suggest a compact garden variety 4-6 port dualband B/G/N/AC wireless router, (2, redundant & power supplies), providing LAN ports your digi mixer, lighting dongles, and a DHCP-enabled PoE UniFi AP. With this setup, the XYZ WiFi Router would work for a majority of situations, whereas you can deploy the UniFi when required, as in larger distance access.

Debbie, questions. Why the separate lighting rig and hence dongle ? Why an APE ?

 
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 16, 2018, 09:43:50 am
From the Apple APE set-up guide :
Best Locations for AirPort Express
The following recommendations can help your AirPort Express achieve the best wireless range
and network coverage.
     Place your AirPort Express in an open area where there are few obstructions, such as large
pieces of furniture or walls. Place it away from metallic surfaces.
     Avoid placing your AirPort Express behind furniture or inside cabinets.
     Donít lay your AirPort Express on its side. Donít place your AirPort Express in areas surrounded by metal surfaces on three or more sides.
     If you put your AirPort Express in an entertainment center with your stereo equipment,
donít surround AirPort Express with audio, video, or power cables. Place your AirPort Express
so the cables are to one side. Keep as much space as possible between AirPort Express and
the cables.
     Place your AirPort Express at least 25 feet (8 meters) from any microwave oven, 2.4 GHz
cordless phone, or other source of interference.
The following items can cause interference with Wi-Fi communication:
   Microwave ovens
   Direct Satellite Service (DSS) radio frequency leakage
   The original coaxial cable that may come with a satellite dish. Contact the device
manufacturer and get newer cables.
   Electrical devices such as power lines, electrical railroad tracks, and power stations.
   Cordless telephones that operate in the 2.4 GHz range. If you have problems with your
phone or AirPort communication, change the channel that your AirPort Express uses.
   Adjacent base stations using nearby channels. For example, if device A is set to channel
1, device B should be set to channel 6 or 11. For best results, use channel 1, 6, or 11 when
operating your device in the 2.4 GHz range.
    The farther away the interference source, the less likely it is to cause a problem.
_______________________________________________________________________________________

Though conventional wisdom would suggest best avoid direct stacked or adjacent placement, in practice (IME) though doable, not preferable. Best allow some distance of say a 24" or greater.

Another plus one for the Ubiquiti UniFi AP AC products, and fixed IPs for your digital mixers, and ARTNET/DMX dongles via ENNTEC and DMXking utility software, with DHCP for tablets and computers. 

May I suggest a compact garden variety 4-6 port dualband B/G/N/AC wireless router, (2, redundant & power supplies), providing LAN ports your digi mixer, lighting dongles, and a DHCP-enabled PoE UniFi AP. With this setup, the XYZ WiFi Router would work for a majority of situations, whereas you can deploy the UniFi when required, as in larger distance access.

Debbie, questions. Why the separate lighting rig and hence dongle ? Why an APE ?

 

Hi James , I am not separating lights from sound. I have run the 2 successfully for some years through one single Apple Airport Express router.
I am considering running another lighting universe which this current set -up (Luminair software) does not allow. I usually run this second light system by RF remote but it is awkward for me sometimes. So as I already own a second AE, it would be simple to run the second universe through that router and use a different Luminair program.

Update: As an experiment, on saturday I tried my 2 AE's stacked together and ran sound through one and lights through the other and it was successful.
However, I would still like to explore getting something like the Ubiquity that would allow the 2 networks through the one WAP.
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: James Paul on April 16, 2018, 02:35:25 pm
Debbie, no surprise with successful dual APE deployment. However my point is to reduce the use of two APEs, WAPs, or WiFi routers to only ONE active WAP for ONE network. To make use of what you already posses, one of your APEs, LAN to XYZ unmanaged switch or router, LAN to lamp dongles, LAN to digi-mixer du jour, resulting in ONE network, with TWO lighting universes, digi-mixer du jour, and any number of GUI devices, and a redundant APE.
 
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 16, 2018, 03:02:40 pm
Debbie, no surprise with successful dual APE deployment. However my point is to reduce the use of two APEs, WAPs, or WiFi routers to only ONE active WAP for ONE network. To make use of what you already posses, one of your APEs, LAN to XYZ unmanaged switch or router, LAN to lamp dongles, LAN to digi-mixer du jour, resulting in ONE network, with TWO lighting universes, digi-mixer du jour, and any number of GUI devices, and a redundant APE.

Sorry, you lost me - LOL.... How can I use what I have for 2 universes? I would need a WAP like the one Scott suggested - no?
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: James Paul on April 16, 2018, 05:56:53 pm
ENNTEC ODE, assigned a unique static I.P. address = first universe (512 dmx channels)
DMXKing ODE,  assigned a unique static I.P. address = second universe (512 dmx channels)

You can use an APE with its own I.P. address as a WAP for your network switch.
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 16, 2018, 10:40:28 pm
ENNTEC ODE, assigned a unique static I.P. address = first universe (512 dmx channels)
DMXKing ODE,  assigned a unique static I.P. address = second universe (512 dmx channels)

You can use an APE with its own I.P. address as a WAP for your network switch.

But I don't get to choose which ODE I connect to - I get to choose which router I connect to.  I am confused how I could designate which IPad talks to which ODE.
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: James Paul on April 17, 2018, 11:16:32 pm
But I don't get to choose which ODE I connect to - I get to choose which router I connect to.  I am confused how I could designate which IPad talks to which ODE.
You should be able to assign separate IP addresses to the ARTNET interfaces via the corresponding utility software, then just choose the interface to connect to via the Luminair app on each of any number of tablets.

Though I have zero hands on experience with Luminair in particular, I do have operational experience with the ODEs and similar iOS/ Android lighting controller apps in the fashion and method detailed, and can confirm success.
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 18, 2018, 01:37:07 am
You should be able to assign separate IP addresses to the ARTNET interfaces via the corresponding utility software, then just choose the interface to connect to via the Luminair app on each of any number of tablets.



James, please read the whole thread.  The controller uses broadcast messages and is not layer 3

Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: James Paul on April 18, 2018, 02:43:59 am
Scott, I had read the thread. Better yet, been there, done that. So what am I misunderstanding ?
Perhaps we may have a misinterpretation.
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 18, 2018, 02:50:05 am
Scott, I had read the thread. Better yet, been there, done that. So what am I misunderstanding ?
Perhaps we may have a misinterpretation.
Debbie's interface use some type of machine layer broadcast protocol.  You can't assign an IP them.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: James Paul on April 18, 2018, 03:16:01 am
https://www.enttec.com/us/products/controls/dmx-over-ethernet/nmu/

https://dmxking.com/downloads-list
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 22, 2018, 09:59:30 am
I tried to assign IP addresses to the dongles but with DMXKing, I had some difficulty accessing the edit function on the utility program so I wrote to the company. Did not hear back - disappointing.
Anyway, after chatting with Rob Spence about this, it seemed a good idea to give something a try: to assign one Luminair program per iPad to sCAN with art net off and the other to art net on and sCAN off. Tried it last night and VOILA!.. It worked flawlessly using the same router ( and switch)  but the 2 separate dongles were each receiving commands through a different protocol.
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 22, 2018, 01:27:45 pm
I tried to assign IP addresses to the dongles but with DMXKing, I had some difficulty accessing the edit function on the utility program so I wrote to the company. Did not hear back - disappointing.
Anyway, after chatting with Rob Spence about this, it seemed a good idea to give something a try: to assign one Luminair program per iPad to sCAN with art net off and the other to art net on and sCAN off. Tried it last night and VOILA!.. It worked flawlessly using the same router ( and switch)  but the 2 separate dongles were each receiving commands through a different protocol.

Nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: OK to position 2 x Apple Airport Express routers next to each other?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on April 24, 2018, 08:10:11 pm
Nothing wrong with that.

 :)