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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Douglas Cyr on November 30, 2021, 03:13:52 AM
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Hello,
This Friday I'll be doing my first dedicated monitor mixing job and also the biggest production I've engineered for - in an arena for a halftime show.
Luckily it's simple -
-Rapper/singer with IEMs and wedges
-DJ with side fills
Console is an M32. This is all the info I have so far and I'll definitely be gathering more as the show comes closer. It's my first time using IEMs but I've mixed monitors from FOH before.
Is there any info you guys and girls think I should have going into this? I like to be overprepared even if it is a very simple gig. I've read that in ears need a low cut as well as some added air above 10k, aswell as reverb for space. I've also heard about notching out the "pilot tone" of the RF transmission from the master EQ. If the singer is going to be moving around, whats the best technique for ringing out the monitors for a moving microphone?
Any suggestions would be great!
Thanks,
Doug
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let the artist tell you what they want to hear.
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Hello,
This Friday I'll be doing my first dedicated monitor mixing job and also the biggest production I've engineered for - in an arena for a halftime show.
Luckily it's simple -
-Rapper/singer with IEMs and wedges
-DJ with side fills
Console is an M32. This is all the info I have so far and I'll definitely be gathering more as the show comes closer. It's my first time using IEMs but I've mixed monitors from FOH before.
Is there any info you guys and girls think I should have going into this? I like to be overprepared even if it is a very simple gig. I've read that in ears need a low cut as well as some added air above 10k, aswell as reverb for space. I've also heard about notching out the "pilot tone" of the RF transmission from the master EQ. If the singer is going to be moving around, whats the best technique for ringing out the monitors for a moving microphone?
Any suggestions would be great!
Thanks,
Doug
Go gently with boosts above 10k with the iem. Extreme amounts of high end boost can mess with the stereo decoding of the rf signal.
High pass is your friend to help overcome the occlusion effect (try sticking your fingers in your ears while talking) without resorting to brute force volume.
Try not to make any sudden jarring changes in the iem mix. This helps with the trust factor.
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let the artist tell you what they need to hear.
OK, fixed it....
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Ian Gillan of Deep Purple wants everything louder than everything else
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Ian Gillan of Deep Purple wants everything louder than everything else
.....and all of that louder than the mains. Been there, done that - stage volume higher than FOH.
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Go gently with boosts above 10k with the iem. Extreme amounts of high end boost can mess with the stereo decoding of the rf signal.
High pass is your friend to help overcome the occlusion effect (try sticking your fingers in your ears while talking) without resorting to brute force volume.
Try not to make any sudden jarring changes in the iem mix. This helps with the trust factor.
Is this the pilot tone I've hard speak of? Is it possible to figure out what that tone is and notch it out as I've seen mentionedm
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Also are there common gain staging practices with IEMs? I'm worried about accidentally pushing too hot of a signal, do they take line level like +4dBu and then put out an appropriate volume at the reiever?
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Push plenty of signal towards the IEMs. The talent will turn things down at their end if it's too loud.
Conversely, if you send a low level, they turn up and then either something crackles or you accidentally send a hot signal, they'll hear some very loud sounds, and will be very angry with you.
Chris
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Remember this: Whatever goes wrong, it's the monitor engineer's fault.
Feedback? Gear on stage doesn't match the rider? Performer forgot his IEMs? Huge Snowstorm caused transit delays?
"So sorry, that's TOTALLY my fault."
Once I learned to accept my role as the universal scapegoat, my time in Monitor World became much more harmonious.
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... All joking aside - having your OWN monitor, so you can hear what you're sending to the stage, makes a world of difference. This becomes tricky with both IEMs and Wedges. If possible, set up a cue wedge of the same model and gain structure as those on stage. Connect it to the 'monitor' output of the console, so that it plays whatever bus is solo'd (I forget exactly how to do this on M32, but I believe it's in the 'Monitor' settings.) Then you can use your own IEMs or headphones driven by the headphone jack of the console to supplement. They should have separate level controls, so you can select which one to monitor.
Then, with a bus solo'd and selected, use sends-on-faders to quickly make adjustments, and hear the results in your cue wedge / cans. I find this much faster and easier than using the Aux Bus Send encoders from each channel.
Monitor mixing, esp. in soundcheck, is where Tablet Apps really shine. Go stand next to the performer on stage, listen to exactly what they're hearing, and adjust.
Especially for a Rapper with wedges, I'd plan to ring out the vocal mic really well. Nothing worse than getting feedback as soon as they ask for 'more me'. Even with IEMs, you'll want to know your wedges are stable. Just don't go so far as to totally neuter them.
Good Luck!
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Is this the pilot tone I've hard speak of? Is it possible to figure out what that tone is and notch it out as I've seen mentionedm
Here is a good explanation..
https://service.shure.com/s/article/notch-filter-allows-for-best-in-ear-monitor-mix-ever?language=en_US
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Here is a good explanation..
https://service.shure.com/s/article/notch-filter-allows-for-best-in-ear-monitor-mix-ever?language=en_US
This is gold! Thank you so much. This directly contradicts advice I was going to follow from this article:
https://www.prosoundweb.com/finding-the-sweet-spot-getting-the-desired-vocal-sound-in-iem-mixes/2/
Look at the EQ curves he references.
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Remember this: Whatever goes wrong, it's the monitor engineer's fault.
Feedback? Gear on stage doesn't match the rider? Performer forgot his IEMs? Huge Snowstorm caused transit delays?
"So sorry, that's TOTALLY my fault."
Once I learned to accept my role as the universal scapegoat, my time in Monitor World became much more harmonious.
********
... All joking aside - having your OWN monitor, so you can hear what you're sending to the stage, makes a world of difference. This becomes tricky with both IEMs and Wedges. If possible, set up a cue wedge of the same model and gain structure as those on stage. Connect it to the 'monitor' output of the console, so that it plays whatever bus is solo'd (I forget exactly how to do this on M32, but I believe it's in the 'Monitor' settings.) Then you can use your own IEMs or headphones driven by the headphone jack of the console to supplement. They should have separate level controls, so you can select which one to monitor.
Then, with a bus solo'd and selected, use sends-on-faders to quickly make adjustments, and hear the results in your cue wedge / cans. I find this much faster and easier than using the Aux Bus Send encoders from each channel.
Monitor mixing, esp. in soundcheck, is where Tablet Apps really shine. Go stand next to the performer on stage, listen to exactly what they're hearing, and adjust.
Especially for a Rapper with wedges, I'd plan to ring out the vocal mic really well. Nothing worse than getting feedback as soon as they ask for 'more me'. Even with IEMs, you'll want to know your wedges are stable. Just don't go so far as to totally neuter them.
Good Luck!
Thanks for all the great advice. How would you go about ringing out/positiong/aiming a monitor for a moving wireless mic? I've only ever dealt with wired mics on stands pointed away from monitors.
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Thanks for all the great advice. How would you go about ringing out/positiong/aiming a monitor for a moving wireless mic? I've only ever dealt with wired mics on stands pointed away from monitors.
Do you have Smaart and know how to use it?
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If you are using a full size M/X32, I find it easier and faster to use the four Buss Send encoders (knobs) on the right of the equalizer section. This way you don't have to select the "sends on fader" mode. This section is absent from the smaller board versions (Compact & Producer). "Sends on fader" is good if you are trying to send many inputs to a single monitor buss, but if it's a single input being sent to multiple busses (i.e. kick to each monitor mix in order) the Buss Send is easier and you don't worry about accidentally being or not being in "Fader Flip" mode. You will also want the busses set to post eq. Good luck!
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This is gold! Thank you so much. This directly contradicts advice I was going to follow from this article:
https://www.prosoundweb.com/finding-the-sweet-spot-getting-the-desired-vocal-sound-in-iem-mixes/2/
Look at the EQ curves he references.
I would not dismiss the sage advice of Mr Caipo, who continually mixes artists way more famous than I do. Whatever works to keep people happy and paying you, works. His advice on the low end cuts is something you will hear from every experienced iem mixer.
The other thing I can say is to have a mix already dialed in as much as possible for the iem folks. Nothing turns folks off the iem experience faster than putting their ears in and being in the cone of silence. They'll let you know what they need more or less of.
Talkback mics for the talent (especially those who don't have a vocal mic) are something everyone will appreciate.
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If you are using a full size M/X32, I find it easier and faster to use the four Buss Send encoders (knobs) on the right of the equalizer section. This way you don't have to select the "sends on fader" mode. This section is absent from the smaller board versions (Compact & Producer). "Sends on fader" is good if you are trying to send many inputs to a single monitor buss, but if it's a single input being sent to multiple busses (i.e. kick to each monitor mix in order) the Buss Send is easier and you don't worry about accidentally being or not being in "Fader Flip" mode. You will also want the busses set to post eq. Good luck!
But one of my favorite features of the X32 is in flip on fader you can select an input and your mixbus faders become the target so now you can send on input to a bank of 8 mixes at once. Same on the Compact. Faster to push multiple faders at once than turn multiple knobs.
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I don't have smart but have used Room EQ Wizard, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to put together a portable RTA aright in time, I recently sold my RTA mic.
Since it's just a vocalist and a DJ I'm sure sends on fader will be fine, I just want to make sure my signal path and processing is on point as it's a nationally famous artist and local celebrity DJ.
To ring out monitors I usually continously push the gain on a microphone until it starts to feed back and keep notching out as I go.
On the vocal IEM send I plan on cutting the filtering the lows about above about 140 hz and boosting a little bit of the air, but not above 15k.
Anything I need to know to make sure FOH and I are configuring the stagebox for a split properly?
Any experience with DJ's? Wouldn't it be easier for him to control his own monitor mix from his controller/mixer, or is it run from the monitor board so I can feed the lead vocal to him?
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Any experience with DJ's? Wouldn't it be easier for him to control his own monitor mix from his controller/mixer, or is it run from the monitor board so I can feed the lead vocal to him?
Most pro level DJ's will give you a Left/Right feed to the FOH and a separate "booth" feed that you put in their monitors. Then you add in the vocals or whatever else is in the split between you and FOH.
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Most pro level DJ's will give you a Left/Right feed to the FOH and a separate "booth" feed that you put in their monitors. Then you add in the vocals or whatever else is in the split between you and FOH.
Ah makes sense I'll just patch that straight through to his side fills at unity and let him control the level through his mixer.
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Some pro DJ controllers (NI for one) use 1/4" phones for booth out - just a heads up.
If the vocalist is a known rap or hip-hop artist I'd pull up a video on Youtube (or website) and check out their mic technique for cupping, grabbing the diaphragm area, etc. - then adjusting the wedges accordingly.
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Ah makes sense I'll just patch that straight through to his side fills at unity and let him control the level through his mixer.
I would take 4 sends from the DJ: Program left, program right, booth monitor left, booth monitor right. I put compressors on the booth monitor inputs because the DJ will *eventually* run the booth mons Full Tilt Boogie. You want this, trust me. I drive the side fills/Texas headphones from the monitor desk and the booth inputs don't even show up in at FOH.
DJ may want his mic in a separate input channel or may just plug into his mixer. They tend to like the latter because the soundperson can't leave them muted or turned down...
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Thanks again for all the great advice everybody.
Is it possible to create stereo aux sends on the M32?
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There's air and then there's 'air'. It helps to remember that relatively few adults can hear above 15khz and many musicians that have been exposed to loud music for long periods lose sensitivity well below that. A boost at 10-12k with a 15khz low pass filter on the top of your eq will provide the needed sense of air without making the IEM transmit / receive system unhappy. The process used on the wireless stereo IEMs is the same as has been used in FM radios for decades so there is lots of research and published discussion on best practices.
This is gold! Thank you so much. This directly contradicts advice I was going to follow from this article:
https://www.prosoundweb.com/finding-the-sweet-spot-getting-the-desired-vocal-sound-in-iem-mixes/2/
Look at the EQ curves he references.
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Thanks again for all the great advice everybody.
Is it possible to create stereo aux sends on the M32?
Sure. Stereo link the buses.
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Ok I'm feeling pretty confident about this.
Last real question is will X32 EDIT work for the M32? I don't only used it for X32.
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Ok I'm feeling pretty confident about this.
Last real question is will X32 EDIT work for the M32? I don't only used it for X32.
Absolutely, as long as thy'e the same version of firmware. X32 and M32 are the same mixer.
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The nice thing about mixing just monitors is that you can pretty much live in Fader Flip mode. Everything you need will be right there, easy to get to. If you're familiar and comfortable with the M32, you should be in great shape for this gig.
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But one of my favorite features of the X32 is in flip on fader you can select an input and your mixbus faders become the target so now you can send on input to a bank of 8 mixes at once. Same on the Compact. Faster to push multiple faders at once than turn multiple knobs.
... That's interesting, I haven't used this before. Are you saying you can select an INPUT, and use the Bus Master Faders as Sends to those busses, rather than the Aux Bus Encoder Knobs? How do you Access this mode?
... As Tim Said, it's ideal to take both a direct and a booth feed from the DJ. I use the Direct feed (same as FOH) for the other mixes on stage, in this case your Rapper's IEMs and Wedges. Then, send the booth mix back to the DJ's monitors. That gives the DJ control of his own booth level, while still giving you control over the output bus EQ and gain structure, allowing you to add your own limiter, and then mix in the Rapper's vocal.
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... That's interesting, I haven't used this before. Are you saying you can select an INPUT, and use the Bus Master Faders as Sends to those busses, rather than the Aux Bus Encoder Knobs? How do you Access this mode?
... As Tim Said, it's ideal to take both a direct and a booth feed from the DJ. I use the Direct feed (same as FOH) for the other mixes on stage, in this case your Rapper's IEMs and Wedges. Then, send the booth mix back to the DJ's monitors. That gives the DJ control of his own booth level, while still giving you control over the output bus EQ and gain structure, allowing you to add your own limiter, and then mix in the Rapper's vocal.
Select a channel, press "fader flip" or whatever the button is labeled... and the bus masters become the sends to the buses for the selected channel. Take a good look at the scribble strips and you'll see they changed to reflect the operation.
The reverse works as well - select a mix output and press fader flip... the *channels* on the visible layer become sends on faders and this behavior will persist if you change fader banks until you re-press the fader flip button.
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I would take 4 sends from the DJ: Program left, program right, booth monitor left, booth monitor right. I put compressors on the booth monitor inputs because the DJ will *eventually* run the booth mons Full Tilt Boogie. You want this, trust me. I drive the side fills/Texas headphones from the monitor desk and the booth inputs don't even show up in at FOH.
Brilliant!
Dave
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Select a channel, press "fader flip" or whatever the button is labeled... and the bus masters become the sends to the buses for the selected channel. Take a good look at the scribble strips and you'll see they changed to reflect the operation.
The reverse works as well - select a mix output and press fader flip... the *channels* on the visible layer become sends on faders and this behavior will persist if you change fader banks until you re-press the fader flip button.
Thanks, that's Awesome! I have only 'fader flip' with a Bus selected in order to mix multiple inputs into a selected output bus. Didn't know you could do the converse with an Input selected to send to multiple output busses. way cool. 8)
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Thanks, that's Awesome! I have only 'fader flip' with a Bus selected in order to mix multiple inputs into a selected output bus. Didn't know you could do the converse with an Input selected to send to multiple output busses. way cool. 8)
This is awesome. It is also something the PM5d did many years ago. Unfortunately it seems to have vanished from Yamaha consoles. (I think, since I am only using one console anymore)
Mac
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Is this the pilot tone I've hard speak of? Is it possible to figure out what that tone is and notch it out as I've seen mentionedm
There is a 19Khz pilot tone for the stereo multiplexing so you are best off just low passing at 15 or even 10k. The tone is notched out but the notch filter only has so much depth. I can't imagine you having instruments with a large amount of 19k content either.
Depending on the age of the gear there are tone squelches on analog rigs. Again the tone is notched out by the RX. These tones vary my vendor. There are also "digital" tone coded squelches that work outside the audio passband to use a data sequence to secure the channel and provide a reliable squelch. These have nothing to do with digital modulation, it's digital data encoded analog, don't get too down in the weeds with the modulation types. Who is handling the RF out of curiosity (frequency coordination and the like)? Even though it is outside your parlance if nobody planned for RF coordination you may need to pick up the ball to keep from looking bad.
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There is a 19Khz pilot tone for the stereo multiplexing so you are best off just low passing at 15 or even 10k. The tone is notched out but the notch filter only has so much depth. I can't imagine you having instruments with a large amount of 19k content either.
Depending on the age of the gear there are tone squelches on analog rigs. Again the tone is notched out by the RX. These tones vary my vendor. There are also "digital" tone coded squelches that work outside the audio passband to use a data sequence to secure the channel and provide a reliable squelch. These have nothing to do with digital modulation, it's digital data encoded analog, don't get too down in the weeds with the modulation types. Who is handling the RF out of curiosity (frequency coordination and the like)? Even though it is outside your parlance if nobody planned for RF coordination you may need to pick up the ball to keep from looking bad.
FM multiplex pilot tone.... it you have lots of cymbal wash - any genre with Bashers of Bronze on the drum throne, with the lead vocalist a mere 2 metres downstage... you'd be prepared to do an additional notch in the vocal mic or vocal mix, maybe even use a Low Pass Filter. There's lots o' energy in cymbals. This is where even partial plexi drum shields (on stands, that block line-of-sight cymbal wash) can help the IEMs even if they don't help a whole lot for FOH.