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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Kevin Conlon on April 15, 2018, 03:51:10 PM

Title: China amp
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 15, 2018, 03:51:10 PM
Anyone know who they copied on this?
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/cheap-price-4-channel-1300w-switching_60473245990.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.90.d9872336yGmUe2
I know some of these companies do OEM but i don't know this amp. I might get one and see how it does for that price. (plus 100.00 ship)
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on April 15, 2018, 03:53:44 PM
Anyone know who they copied on this?
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/cheap-price-4-channel-1300w-switching_60473245990.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.90.d9872336yGmUe2
I know some of these companies do OEM but i don't know this amp. I might get one and see how it does for that price. (plus 100.00 ship) You have to copy and paste, sorry.


Look like an attempt at a lab gruppen ripoff.
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Dennis Wiggins on April 15, 2018, 04:14:01 PM
Anyone know who they copied on this?
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/cheap-price-4-channel-1300w-switching_60473245990.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.90.d9872336yGmUe2
I know some of these companies do OEM but i don't know this amp. I might get one and see how it does for that price. (plus 100.00 ship) You have to copy and paste, sorry.

The purchase history shows most have been sold to India.  Perhaps someone from there can report their experience.

I wish Peavey would make a 4U 4 channel IPR with simple 40hz hipass.

-Dennis
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 15, 2018, 04:32:04 PM

Look like an attempt at a lab gruppen ripoff.
I saw lab copies i recognized. Also saw 5050 QSC that sold well in india. Anyone here from there?
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 15, 2018, 04:36:51 PM
I recall last century when chinese manufacturers would come into the PV booth and try to sell me their idea of a modern power amp (heavy transformer and heatsink, modest power). Back decades ago their attempts were laughable but since then the west (us) have taught them how to make amps that don't suck. While there may always be QA issues.

This theft (rampant borrowing) of IP is finally a trade issue on the table for negotiation again. My apologies if I offend anybody.

JR

Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Tommy Shannon on April 15, 2018, 05:02:05 PM
I recall last century when chinese manufacturers would come into the PV booth and try to sell me their idea of a modern power amp (heavy transformer and heatsink, modest power). Back decades ago their attempts were laughable but since then the west (us) have taught them how to make amps that don't suck. While there may always be QA issues.

This theft (rampant borrowing) of IP is finally a trade issue on the table for negotiation again. My apologies if I offend anybody.

JR

Yes -- agreed!! Whatever a person's political persuasion, I would hope we can all find common ground on the issue of IP theft that has gone on too long in consumer, commercial, and military technology.
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 15, 2018, 05:07:43 PM
I recall last century when chinese manufacturers would come into the PV booth and try to sell me their idea of a modern power amp (heavy transformer and heatsink, modest power). Back decades ago their attempts were laughable but since then the west (us) have taught them how to make amps that don't suck. While there may always be QA issues.

This theft (rampant borrowing) of IP is finally a trade issue on the table for negotiation again. My apologies if I offend anybody.

JR
Can they replicate things that are discontinued by OEM without patent problems? We rebuilt Japan after WW2 and they kicked us in the but with electronics. The new leadership does seem to want to deal with this. No politics, good thing as this could go off the deep end.
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 15, 2018, 05:34:57 PM
Japan's kicked our ass in the home electronics game because their hardware was not only unique, but well designed and well built. With the exception of a few US companies, Marantz, Harmon Kardon, MacIntosh, etc., the Japanese entry into consumer electronics in the late 60's early 70's revealed that history was in the making. I was in Vietnam at the time and remember very well shopping at the Navy Exchange in Atsugi Japan and being in disbelief at the choices available for stereo and quad hi fi's. We all had plenty of money and yen was 360 to a dollar. I bought some of the best (at the time) JVC and Sansui components available and still had plenty of money left over.

We also pulled liberty in Tiawan. Everything from the U.S. was copied and sold for pennies on the dollar. Hell, we could buy knockoffs of Fender Telecasters for $7, 3600nt at the time. China steals our products, reproduces them with a slight twist, then sends them to us full of cheap components for sale at ridiculous prices. All manufactured by people who work for less than the cost of a bowl of rice and a company dog house to live in.
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 15, 2018, 06:05:28 PM
Japan's kicked our ass in the home electronics game because their hardware was not only unique, but well designed and well built. With the exception of a few US companies, Marantz, Harmon Kardon, MacIntosh, etc., the Japanese entry into consumer electronics in the late 60's early 70's revealed that history was in the making. I was in Vietnam at the time and remember very well shopping at the Navy Exchange in Atsugi Japan and being in disbelief at the choices available for stereo and quad hi fi's. We all had plenty of money and yen was 360 to a dollar. I bought some of the best (at the time) JVC and Sansui components available and still had plenty of money left over.

We also pulled liberty in Tiawan. Everything from the U.S. was copied and sold for pennies on the dollar. Hell, we could buy knockoffs of Fender Telecasters for $7, 3600nt at the time. China steals our products, reproduces them with a slight twist, then sends them to us full of cheap components for sale at ridiculous prices. All manufactured by people who work for less than the cost of a bowl of rice and a company dog house to live in.
I love my 76 Ibanez. I remember Japan= good, Tiawan= cheap. Some of the companies on alibaba brag about using american and tiawan parts. Seems they are trying, too bad they are stealing. I have a friend who works half the year in China as QA, he can't comprehend the conditions.
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 15, 2018, 06:09:59 PM
Japan's kicked our ass in the home electronics game because their hardware was not only unique, but well designed and well built. With the exception of a few US companies, Marantz, Harmon Kardon, MacIntosh, etc., the Japanese entry into consumer electronics in the late 60's early 70's revealed that history was in the making. I was in Vietnam at the time and remember very well shopping at the Navy Exchange in Atsugi Japan and being in disbelief at the choices available for stereo and quad hi fi's. We all had plenty of money and yen was 360 to a dollar. I bought some of the best (at the time) JVC and Sansui components available and still had plenty of money left over.

We also pulled liberty in Tiawan. Everything from the U.S. was copied and sold for pennies on the dollar. Hell, we could buy knockoffs of Fender Telecasters for $7, 3600nt at the time. China steals our products, reproduces them with a slight twist, then sends them to us full of cheap components for sale at ridiculous prices. All manufactured by people who work for less than the cost of a bowl of rice and a company dog house to live in.
Just for perspective the yen-dollar is now roughly at parity so you were buying hifi gear for $0.36 a dollah.....

Japanese manufacturing killed my kit business (back in the 80s) because their assembled poop was cheaper than my kits of loose components.

But this is a cycle of life....  in the early days of the US we ripped off european IP... and built it cheaper in the "colonies".  ::)

The good news is the truly poor people benefit from this shifting trade. We don't appreciate how wealthy we are. But fair is fair and even China is getting wealthy now, time for them to pay some forward to poorer nations.

JR
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Kevin Conlon on April 15, 2018, 06:15:03 PM
Just for perspective the yen-dollar is now roughly at parity so you were buying hifi gear for $0.36 a dollah.....

Japanese manufacturing killed my kit business (back in the 80s) because their assembled poop was cheaper than my kits of loose components.

But this is a cycle of life....  in the early days of the US we ripped off european IP... and built it cheaper in the "colonies".  ::)

The good news is the truly poor people benefit from this shifting trade. We don't appreciate how wealthy we are. But fair is fair and even China is getting wealthy now, time for them to pay some forward to poorer nations.

JR
Agreed,and maybe some pollution control.
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Mal Brown on April 15, 2018, 06:40:38 PM
Japan was kicking our manufacturing ability in the tail in the 70’ laregely because they learned Continuous Process Improvement... see Demming.  Detroit laughed him outta town...the Japanese listened.
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Peter Morris on April 15, 2018, 07:12:55 PM

Look like an attempt at a lab gruppen ripoff.

Yes it is - its a Lab Gruppen rip off.  Given that Behringer now owns Lab Gruppen I find this a little amusing. Have a look at some of the legal cases Behringer was involved in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behringer

Sanway make quite a few of these https://www.china-sanway.com/FP14000-Class-TD-Professional-Power-Amplifier-pd393583.html

Their quality is much better than the one shown in the link.  Think in terms of about 700 - 800 USD
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 15, 2018, 07:22:50 PM
Japan was kicking our manufacturing ability in the tail in the 70’ laregely because they learned Continuous Process Improvement... see Demming.  Detroit laughed him outta town...the Japanese listened.
Old news... not just Kaizen (the Japanese thang about continuous improvement that they didn't need to learn from us) but SPC (statistical process control) and more statistical QC technology after Deming that all helped. Don't get sucked into the "they beat us fair" meme... currency exchange rate and tariffs made a huge difference in their favor back then, still not completely level.

We still did (do) pretty damn good considering the stacked deck for all these decades, and we are helping poor nations get less poor, while unskilled laborers here don't feel very charitable about that wealth transfer from their paychecks. 8)

JR

PS: I once got in trouble at a supervisors meeting (in my last day job) when our fearless leader declared that the recovery of our domestic passenger car business was because they finally embraced quality control. ::). I was dumb enough to point out the huge tariffs on imported vehicles,  which is also why japan moved brands upscale (to support the high tariffs with higher list prices) and then later built their own pickup truck factories here.  The US tariff on imported light trucks is something like 25% still (fair?) which explains why detroit likes selling us big expensive pickup trucks, instead of small cars...  :o 

PPS: The only reason I moved to MS was because the consumer electronics business was already lost to the Japanese so I decided to make a last stand in the sound reinforcement business. Ironic perhaps that Peavey eventually ended up sending me to China to help set up manufacturing there. I have met the enemy and he is me.  ::)
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Dave Scarlett on April 15, 2018, 07:41:55 PM
These products have come up here a number of times. It would be interesting to have one of our very experienced users take a look at some of these amps for example. If we eached chipped in $10-$20 to buy a sample it would be pretty interesting I'd say!
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Ivan Beaver on April 15, 2018, 08:49:00 PM
Can they replicate things that are discontinued by OEM without patent problems?
Lab Gruppen is still making the FP10000Q
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: David Buckley on April 15, 2018, 08:54:24 PM
If one searches on aliexpress for 4 channel 1300w switching power amplifier then one gets a picture of something very similar, but for rather more than a hundred bucks.  Guess that's what happens when you don't want a container-load.

This link may work:  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4-channel-dj-professional-lab-gruppen-fp6000q-700w-4-switching-mode-supply-power-amplifier/32800774564.html  ... and its funny some of the words in that link!  Words like gruppen...
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 16, 2018, 12:29:59 AM
These products have come up here a number of times. It would be interesting to have one of our very experienced users take a look at some of these amps for example. If we eached chipped in $10-$20 to buy a sample it would be pretty interesting I'd say!

I can't imagine anyone jumping on that bandwagon. To spend $1000 on an amp with  cheap capacitors and an attached power cord is not a consideration.  For smaller budgets $1000 is a big purchase and tossing it in the garbage when it breaks would destroy any economies in the purchase.

Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Dave Pluke on April 16, 2018, 08:49:44 PM
For smaller budgets $1000 is a big purchase and tossing it in the garbage when it breaks would destroy any economies in the purchase.

Not to mention the potential expense of replacing drivers, should the knock-off protection not be up to snuff.

Dave
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Richard Turner on April 16, 2018, 10:40:21 PM
Not to mention the potential expense of replacing drivers, should the knock-off protection not be up to snuff.

Dave

I get the same feeling when I see the $400 Chinese air-plasma torches on sale at harbor freight et al. How many hours before one of the circuit boards grenades inside and takes the whole machine with it.
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Bob Leonard on April 18, 2018, 05:40:43 PM
Take a good look at the circuit boards in the pictures showing component testing.  Why send the board back for re-routing of the traces when all you need to do is run a piece of wire from pin to pin.
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 18, 2018, 08:11:55 PM
Take a good look at the circuit boards in the pictures showing component testing.  Why send the board back for re-routing of the traces when all you need to do is run a piece of wire from pin to pin.

I don't see any chicken wire on the boards. That looks like the PS tie in to me.

Wonder what the role of the toddler is in the company.  Another subset of the company looks like young teenagers.

Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on April 18, 2018, 08:35:47 PM


Have to admit, based on posts from avs forum where they seem to know what they are talking about ....,
I'm tempted to give an imsmith  fp amp a try.....
http://www.imsmiths.com/page45?_l=en&product_id=105
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Scott Holtzman on April 18, 2018, 09:17:02 PM

Have to admit, based on posts from avs forum where they seem to know what they are talking about ....,
I'm tempted to give an imsmith  fp amp a try.....
http://www.imsmiths.com/page45?_l=en&product_id=105

AVS Forum isn't pro users where failure is lost reputation.

There are so many people branding these amps.  It's interesting this version has an IEC receptacle instead of a fixed power cord.
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Richard Turner on April 18, 2018, 10:55:16 PM
Why wait? This guy has stock stateside..... shows up on ebay canada as $47.00 with free international shipping....

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/282926871511
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on April 19, 2018, 11:54:45 AM
AVS Forum isn't pro users where failure is lost reputation.

There are so many people branding these amps.  It's interesting this version has an IEC receptacle instead of a fixed power cord.

Yep, AVS forum has different concerns for sure.  But like any forum, if you can ferret out and discern whose info is experienced and cutting edge, it's a good place to broaden. 
Some of the guys there do real amp testing. 
The Sanways that Peter mentioned earlier, seem to have worked well for a number of folks.  The Smiths I linked appear to be the new favorite.... 
The trick to finding an amp worth a try, at least according to AVS posts, is to avoid re-branded stuff, and stick with manufacturer direct, from one that's been around for a while.

I'm thinking to try one, and just have my existing amps as backup already in place....
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 19, 2018, 12:44:14 PM

Have to admit, based on posts from avs forum where they seem to know what they are talking about ....,
I'm tempted to give an imsmith  fp amp a try.....
http://www.imsmiths.com/page45?_l=en&product_id=105
It's only (your) money but at a minimum I would look for UL or CUL agency inspection marks.

JR
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on April 19, 2018, 01:28:20 PM
It's only (your) money but at a minimum I would look for UL or CUL agency inspection marks.

JR

Good advice no doubt. 
If I can't get the inspection marks, maybe I could ask they throw in a fire extinguisher  ;D
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Dave Pluke on April 19, 2018, 01:59:48 PM
It's only (your) money but at a minimum I would look for UL or CUL agency inspection marks.

But, if someone were willing to risk bootlegging an amplifier like this, would they really be concerned about adding a counterfeit UL label?

Dave
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on April 19, 2018, 02:54:21 PM
But, if someone were willing to risk bootlegging an amplifier like this, would they really be concerned about adding a counterfeit UL label?

Dave
I haven't been in the loop lately but real ul stickers are hard to copy (by design), of course consumers when partially blinded by greed are easier to fool.

I saw a domestic product recently that is only sold with a domestic 120v plug, with CE boldly printed on the faceplate.  :o

But you know what they say about fools and their money.  8)

JR

PS: UL registered products can be found by searching a UL database. I don't care enough to look.
Title: Re: China amp
Post by: Stephen Kirby on April 19, 2018, 06:05:16 PM
If someone is making a UL listed product then they have the postscript file for the certification mark and could easily print up labels or laser engrave it into anything else.  For that matter, it's probably fairly simple to "know someone" you can get the artwork from.