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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: Mike Henderson on May 16, 2021, 09:37:29 am

Title: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 16, 2021, 09:37:29 am
Hey guys, I am thinking of getting this sub for my garage:

https://av.loyola.com/products/audio/ev ... or-kw.html

Can you guys tell me exactly what it is which makes a sub omnidirectional please?

I have this one:

https://av.loyola.com/products/audio/ev ... i-sub.html

which is omnidirectional too but instead of trying to find another one, I am thinking might best to get the dual 18" version but these 2 subs look totally different in design which is why I am asking the question.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 16, 2021, 10:11:20 am
Hey guys, I am thinking of getting this sub for my garage:

https://av.loyola.com/products/audio/ev ... or-kw.html

Can you guys tell me exactly what it is which makes a sub omnidirectional please?

I have this one:

https://av.loyola.com/products/audio/ev ... i-sub.html

which is omnidirectional too but instead of trying to find another one, I am thinking might best to get the dual 18" version but these 2 subs look totally different in design which is why I am asking the question.


In this house we obey the laws of Physics!


It's not the mic of the kickdrum, it's the size of the wavelength.


Size doesn't matter. Until it does.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: David Morison on May 16, 2021, 10:41:01 am
Hey guys,

Can you guys tell me exactly what it is which makes a sub omnidirectional please?


All sounds have a characteristic called Wavelength, which is inversely related to frequency. Therefore low frequencies = long wavelengths.

If the source of a wave is much smaller than the wave itself, then the source will not be able to control where the wave goes, and it spreads out pretty much in every direction.

The wavelength of 100Hz is about 3.4m (and 30Hz = 11.4m), whereas common subwoofers might only be 0.5-0.6m wide (or tall if laid down), therefore the subwoofer definitely falls into the category of "small relative to the wavelengths being produced".

Wiki link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huygens%E2%80%93Fresnel_principle) if you want to get academic about it.

Cheers,
David.

PS: The links in your post don't work so I've no idea what subs you were referring to, but the general relationship between size & directivity applies to all subs, unless you move the goalposts by adding other sound sources to creat cancellations in the direction of the "unwanted" sound.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 16, 2021, 11:50:57 am
PS: The links in your post don't work so I've no idea what subs you were referring to, but the general relationship between size & directivity applies to all subs, unless you move the goalposts by adding other sound sources to creat cancellations in the direction of the "unwanted" sound.

Sorry, these links should work:
https://av.loyola.com/products/audio/ev-eliminator-i-sub.html

https://av.loyola.com/products/audio/ev-eliminator-kw.html

Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Matthias McCready on May 16, 2021, 12:46:11 pm
Mike,

David is correct it has to do with Wavelength.

--

Fun experiment for you. Play some pink noise and use a low-pass so that you are only getting information under 200hz. Now place a normal speaker (not a sub) on a stick.

While your eyes are closed have a friend spin the speaker around, and see if you can hear when it is aiming directly at you vs away.

Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on May 16, 2021, 01:23:39 pm
Location matters, boundaries like walls, and corners will influence propagation... yes its physics.

JR
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 16, 2021, 02:25:59 pm
Well here's my update and train of thought with this omnidirectional issue, guys.

One day last couple weeks I had turned on my system and no sound was coming from the EAW SB1000 Sub which is always at my back wall facing forward. So I took all the speakers off of it and placed them in the middle of the room. I then as first test plugged the speaker cable from the EAW into my EV's full range to test and was totally surprised the I was hearing the bass more evenly anywhere in the room and even at the one trouble spot which is right in front of the garage's side door.

So I moved the EV's to the back wall facing forward to see if I would get the same result but no, it was the same as the EAW. Then thinking well, since the EV's were facing the side walls when I had plugged the cable in to them let me try facing them towards the side wall and this gave me the bass all around the room just as when they were in the middle of the room.

I then decided to add an EV Sub in the middle of the side wall to "flank" it and this doubled the bass all around the room. So right now with one full range EV acting as a sub at the back wall facing the side wall and the addition of the EV Sub on the side wall, I am now getting what I have been fighting for all these many years.

I am just wondering now instead of having the one EV Sub at the middle of the side wall if that Dual 18" Omnidirectional Sub can be placed at the back wall facing forward might give the same result I am now getting with what's mentioned. So, think this might work or should I leave the the 2 speakers where they are and get another EV Sub to replace the full range EV at the back wall and be satisfied with that?
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on May 16, 2021, 03:58:14 pm
Well here's my update and train of thought with this omnidirectional issue, guys. <snip>

What you experienced isn't directionality, but the effect of boundaries on low frequencies. 

Read up on standing waves and room modes.  What you're fighting with doesn't have to do with subwoofers, but placement within the room and all the interactions thereof. 
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Art Welter on May 16, 2021, 04:13:07 pm
Well here's my update and train of thought with this omnidirectional issue, guys.

 as first test plugged the speaker cable from the EAW into my EV's full range to test and was totally surprised the I was hearing the bass more evenly anywhere in the room and even at the one trouble spot which is right in front of the garage's side door.

So I moved the EV's to the back wall facing forward to see if I would get the same result but no, it was the same as the EAW.

I then decided to add an EV Sub in the middle of the side wall to "flank" it and this doubled the bass all around the room. So .. I am now getting what I have been fighting for all these many years.
 So, think this might work or should I leave the the 2 speakers where they are and get another EV Sub to replace the full range EV at the back wall and be satisfied with that?
Mike,

As Caleb mentioned (while I was typing my response..), what you are experiencing are not directional issues, they are room modes.
Room modes are caused by sound reflecting off of various room surfaces. There are three types of modes in a room: axial, tangential, and oblique. Modal activity occurs at frequencies which are directly related to the dimensions of the room.
 
Room modes  dominate a single sub's response in small rooms, causing huge variance in level and frequency response, dependent on location of both the sub and listener.

As you found, adding additional subs in a small room can both smooth the response in frequency and space.
The room's modes did not change, but the number of sources did, resulting in more even response.

https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

The EV Eliminator i "Sub" has little low end, and it's 50Hz Fb (Frequency of Box Tuning)will result in "flapping" if you try to get much low end from it.

For additional subs using the same processing as your SB 1000, look for units that match's its Fb of around 30Hz.

Art
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Luke Geis on May 16, 2021, 07:39:04 pm
A subwoofer is generally omnidirectional because the device that propagates the sound is significantly smaller than the wave it is producing.

Directional control of a wavelength is acquired when the horn, flare, baffle, or radiating path is roughly 4X the length of the frequency it is producing. In the case of low-frequency media, we are talking about wavelengths that start about 10' in length and go to as large as 40' in length or more. To have real directional control over those wavelengths you need a baffle, flare, or whatever you want to call it that would be effectively too large to even consider building or transporting.

The horn that is used on a typical speaker is only large enough to control the dispersion of perhaps only the last octave of frequencies from perhaps 3khz and up. Almost all speakers are essentially omnidirectional from about 500hz and below.

To sum it up though, a subwoofer, in general, is omnidirectional because the wavelengths it reproduces are too large for the size of the box that is producing the sound to control them.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 17, 2021, 07:51:55 am

https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

The EV Eliminator i "Sub" has little low end, and it's 50Hz Fb (Frequency of Box Tuning)will result in "flapping" if you try to get much low end from it.

For additional subs using the same processing as your SB 1000, look for units that match's its Fb of around 30Hz.

Art

Yes guys, I see that now. This will explain why the full range and the sub both are giving the same results as it's the placement of the sub or speakers that's important, thanks for helping me narrow it down!

Than's a great article too [thanks] and it's funny that I just instinctively had followed it's procedures. You've tapped into my next hurdle Art. I realized that I was getting a lot of "punch" bass and not enough depth and I was thinking of adjust the eq and crossover for this but yes, I can expect flapping and vibration issues should I do so.

This is the sub I have had in mind for a while now and should be a good option I think? Or might it be best to get an 18" to get the deeper heavier bass and would a Bass Reflex work or would folded horn be better to push the bass further through the room?

https://eaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/SBX220_SPECS_rev1.pdf

If I can get it I will try it at the back wall under my stack as normal facing forward first, if that should not work then I will have it face the side wall as I am doing now with the EV full range. Then maybe I can see how it will interact with the EV Sub which is located in the middle of the side wall so I might get the depth from the EAW Dual 12" and the punch from the EV Sub.

Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 17, 2021, 11:40:56 am
There won’t be a sub, of any style, that can “push through he room”.

You are dealing with a sub placement issue, not a sub type or amount issue. The placement of the sub is the only thing that can be used to fix this. Well, I guess you could change the size or shape of the room, but other than that you can’t fix it by buying a different sub.


The sub creates a wave. That wave travels to the first big boundary it sees and is reflected back. Now you have two waves, the original and the reflection. They will add together in some spots, and cancel out in some spots. The only thing that can change this is moving the origination location to somewhere more favorable so that the “add together” spot is where you sit to listen.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 17, 2021, 12:03:58 pm
Go here. https://www.falstad.com/ripple/

Select 2 sources and see what that does to the coverage vs 1 source. Unfortunately you can’t model stuff inside a room very well, but think of that second (or 3rd,5th, or 39th) source as reflections from your walls.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 17, 2021, 12:07:22 pm
There won’t be a sub, of any style, that can “push through he room”.

You are dealing with a sub placement issue, not a sub type or amount issue. The placement of the sub is the only thing that can be used to fix this. Well, I guess you could change the size or shape of the room, but other than that you can’t fix it by buying a different sub.


The sub creates a wave. That wave travels to the first big boundary it sees and is reflected back. Now you have two waves, the original and the reflection. They will add together in some spots, and cancel out in some spots. The only thing that can change this is moving the origination location to somewhere more favorable so that the “add together” spot is where you sit to listen.

Very well explained, thank you very much!

So now my decision will be which will be the best Sub to get to replace the full range EV at the back wall. Should it be 12, 15 or 18" to get the deep bass or the size does not matter as long as the sub's frequency response as Art said goes low enough like close to 30hz?
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on May 17, 2021, 12:18:21 pm
Also remember there are three basic dimensions to the room; L x W x H, all of which can generate modes.
This is why purpose built studios generally have non-parallel walls and ceiling.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 17, 2021, 12:22:57 pm
Very well explained, thank you very much!

So now my decision will be which will be the best Sub to get to replace the full range EV at the back wall. Should it be 12, 15 or 18" to get the deep bass or the size does not matter as long as the sub's frequency response as Art said goes low enough like close to 30hz?

This a garage, right? Just for you?

A healthy home theater sub would work a lot better than anything pro audio (until you start spending mega-dollars). Go to Parts Express. Look through their diy sub kits and get the biggest one you can afford. It will play deep and get loud enough for you I’m guessing. It doesn’t matter what size the soeaker is.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 17, 2021, 12:28:53 pm
Alternatively get one of Art Welter’s 212 subs which would blow you out of the room at 40 hz. It’s not built with typical “Pro Audio” drivers. It was a special driver built for the lab sub. It more in common with car audio subs than it does pro audio.

It just goes to show that you really need to match the tools to the job. Most PA cabs focus on being loud over everything else. Thats especially true about that really awful Eliminator “sub”. It’s a weird design that causes a resonant peak at 70ish hz which is good for thumpy disco, but todays music has deeper bass and less thump. So it’s an outdated design and you’ll turn it into confetti if you ask it to play Deadmau5.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 17, 2021, 12:38:04 pm
Alternatively get one of Art Welter’s 212 subs which would blow you out of the room at 40 hz. It’s not built with typical “Pro Audio” drivers. It was a special driver built for the lab sub. It more in common with car audio subs than it does pro audio.

It just goes to show that you really need to match the tools to the job. Most PA cabs focus on being loud over everything else. Thats especially true about that really awful Eliminator “sub”. It’s a weird design that causes a resonant peak at 70ish hz which is good for thumpy disco, but todays music has deeper bass and less thump. So it’s an outdated design and you’ll turn it into confetti if you ask it to play Deadmau5.

You are hitting the nail on the head with this all the way Tim. Short while ago I went into the garage to do some more listening and I noticed I was getting more "thump" than bass, like a kickbass on overdrive.

2 things, do you have a link to Art's 212 subs for me to look into it please? Also, I am trying to make sense of the instructions for that Applet in your previous link. Do I need to be playing music with it?
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 17, 2021, 01:00:47 pm
Requires some wood and some glue, but here you go.
https://soundforums.net/community/threads/free-sub-plan-dual-lab12-front-loaded-by-welter-systems.164/



The app is a 2d visual representation of waves. No music needed. Its for HS Physics teachers basically to show how waves interact. Just select 2 sources in the drop down menu on the right. This simulates having 2 wave generators (like subs) spread apart. You get to see the destructive interference patterns. Then select 3 or 4 or whatever sources and see how it changes. Imagine those extra sources as being your walls and ceiling.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 17, 2021, 01:11:39 pm
Requires some wood and some glue, but here you go.
https://soundforums.net/community/threads/free-sub-plan-dual-lab12-front-loaded-by-welter-systems.164/

The app is a 2d visual representation of waves. No music needed. Its for HS Physics teachers basically to show how waves interact. Just select 2 sources in the drop down menu on the right. This simulates having 2 wave generators (like subs) spread apart. You get to see the destructive interference patterns. Then select 3 or 4 or whatever sources and see how it changes. Imagine those extra sources as being your walls and ceiling.

Oh I had thought it was something to help with knowing best placements for a sub in a room. Yes I can see how the waves interact, thanks.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 17, 2021, 01:22:10 pm
There used to be a better wave simulator out there that allowed you to draw in walls. It was excellent at showing the effects of room modes. I can’t find that one anymore. Of course that was like 20 years ago that I remember using it.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 17, 2021, 01:36:01 pm
There used to be a better wave simulator out there that allowed you to draw in walls. It was excellent at showing the effects of room modes. I can’t find that one anymore. Of course that was like 20 years ago that I remember using it.

No worries, I got the gist of it even though it would have been crazier with obstacles in the way.

I had thought Art's sub was consumer. TBH I don't have desire or patience anymore to build speakers so I will need to look for one. I will do some research now that I have a better idea of what to look for and try to narrow down a few and will post back here. Appreciate the help!
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 17, 2021, 01:46:09 pm
No worries, I got the gist of it even though it would have been crazier with obstacles in the way.

I had thought Art's sub was consumer. TBH I don't have desire or patience anymore to build speakers so I will need to look for one. I will do some research now that I have a better idea of what to look for and try to narrow down a few and will post back here. Appreciate the help!

Yeah I get it. Unfortunately when you want to match a speaker to a very specific situation like this your choices get slim and expensive. The big manufacturers make money by selling lots of product to the biggest pool of buyers. That means if you want something outside of that specific product you need to either build it yourself, or shell out some big bucks for a niche product. Basic supply and demand.


If you can find an Audio Centron CE36 Sub for very cheap (and it should be very cheap) look into that. It uses a triple 12" design and I think (not sure, just guessing) it used a similar cone and surround as the Lab Sub driver. They had double stack magnets and a big rubber surround like the Lab12. These drivers were 16ohm each so 3 of them in a cab made a nice 5.3ohm cabinet (call it 4 ohm nominal) so you could hang each one on a decent sized amp for an easy load.

I owned some of these and they were impressive for what they were, although they are not considered high end at all.



*edit* and clearly make sure it has OEM drivers.....
Title: Multiple subs in a small room
Post by: Art Welter on May 17, 2021, 02:34:29 pm

I had thought Art's sub was consumer. TBH I don't have desire or patience anymore to build speakers so I will need to look for one.
JTR Speakers Captivator 212-Pro would do well for you, more upper output than my 2x12" LAB12 design,  and you could put foam blocks to cover a portion of the ports to lower the Fb from 42Hz to 36Hz (like my 2x12") or 30Hz like your SB1000. Lowering the Fb also make the frequency response more similar to the SB1000, falling LF response, "punchy" upper response.

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c253bba3e9dff0004ee21f4?_k=00lhwn

JTR also makes several other larger subs with far more LF output, though with 2-3 subs in a garage, you really don't need that much output, stuff will falling off the walls and out of the rafters..

Art
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 17, 2021, 02:46:09 pm

*edit* and clearly make sure it has OEM drivers.....

I looked at it but not for me I think. I am looking into smaller Eaw subs first. Tell me, is there any utility hardware or software I can use which can show at what Hz the bass in a tune is at on a continuous basis please?
Title: Re: Multiple subs in a small room
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 17, 2021, 02:49:35 pm
JTR Speakers Captivator 212-Pro would do well for you, more upper output than my 2x12" LAB12 design,  and you could put foam blocks to cover a portion of the ports to lower the Fb from 42Hz to 36Hz (like my 2x12") or 30Hz like your SB1000. Lowering the Fb also make the frequency response more similar to the SB1000, falling LF response, "punchy" upper response.

https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5c253bba3e9dff0004ee21f4?_k=00lhwn

JTR also makes several other larger subs with far more LF output, though with 2-3 subs in a garage, you really don't need that much output, stuff will falling off the walls and out of the rafters..

Art

Ok thanks, will look into this.
Title: Re: Multiple subs in a small room
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 17, 2021, 04:37:16 pm
Oh, one last guys which I only now remembered is to address the fact that when I had turned the SB1000 towards the side wall in the middle of the room, I did not get the same effect as the EV full range speaker. This is why I was focusing on omnidirectional speakers as both the EV full range and and Sub are described as omnidirectional and I have to wonder why the SB1000 did not give the same effect when placed in the same spot in same position as the EV Full Range?
Title: Re: Multiple subs in a small room
Post by: Art Welter on May 17, 2021, 05:13:23 pm
Oh, one last guys which I only now remembered is to address the fact that when I had turned the SB1000 towards the side wall in the middle of the room, I did not get the same effect as the EV full range speaker. This is why I was focusing on omnidirectional speakers as both the EV full range and and Sub are described as omnidirectional and I have to wonder why the SB1000 did not give the same effect when placed in the same spot in same position as the EV Full Range?
"Omnidirectional" is a relative term, from 60 to 160Hz, any of your subs have some degree of directivity, while the SB1000  with it's cross fired 18" effectively make a driver almost double the size of your other subs, which will affect how those upper frequencies are directed and reflected. It is also 45" deep, creating a larger/deeper boundary than your other subs, which could affect the rooms modal pattern orientations.
That said, you may not have orientated the baffles of the different subs in the exact same place, direction and  vertical height in your room. It is common to see rather huge variations (+/-10dB) at various frequencies from 30 to 300Hz with position changes of only a foot or two (in either the sub position or your ears/microphone position) in small rooms.

There are literally dozens of free real time spectrum analyzers you can download to be able to see either the music content by frequency (in "real time"), or your speaker's measured response at different places.
Many can be put on a smart phone, if you keep the level under around 100-106dB to avoid mic clipping, you can watch the response change as you move around- use a "selfy stick" to reduce the reflections from your body affect on the response.



Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: John L Nobile on May 17, 2021, 05:39:58 pm
How many SB1000's do you have in the garage? It used to be one of my favourite subs and handled a 75' x 100' room nicely with a pair of them for a show band.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 18, 2021, 08:14:16 am
How many SB1000's do you have in the garage? It used to be one of my favourite subs and handled a 75' x 100' room nicely with a pair of them for a show band.

Only one but this is only an 8'h x10'w x25'L room so I think it's overkill for this small room and we all know that this Sub was not designed for this which is why I am thinking of trying the SBX220 dual 12". From everything mentioned in this thread it looks like I might fare better with this sub?

Since one can hear bass from all around a cab, does a cab put out sound waves from it's sides, back, top and bottom or only through it's front please?
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: John L Nobile on May 18, 2021, 10:23:17 am
Only one but this is only an 8'h x10'w x25'L room so I think it's overkill for this small room and we all know that this Sub was not designed for this which is why I am thinking of trying the SBX220 dual 12". From everything mentioned in this thread it looks like I might fare better with this sub?

Since one can hear bass from all around a cab, does a cab put out sound waves from it's sides, back, top and bottom or only through it's front please?

If you download a simulation app (I use Danley Direct), you can plot different sub frequencies and get a rough idea of how the coverage starts omni at low frequencies and gets narrower as you move up.

Your garage is about the size of my living room. I just got a new TV and I'm debating whether I need an 8 or 12" sub. There's so many subs to choose from. You seem undecided as to what to get or what you want. Why not try renting subs from a store or rental house? A 12" may be enough, an 18" may be overkill.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 18, 2021, 10:30:49 am
If you download a simulation app (I use Danley Direct), you can plot different sub frequencies and get a rough idea of how the coverage starts omni at low frequencies and gets narrower as you move up.

Your garage is about the size of my living room. I just got a new TV and I'm debating whether I need an 8 or 12" sub. There's so many subs to choose from. You seem undecided as to what to get or what you want. Why not try renting subs from a store or rental house? A 12" may be enough, an 18" may be overkill.

I know what I want, just trying to research which sub will give me the best chances for it. I won't be able to know beforehand how any particular sub will perform in this room but my research is narrowing down to EAW SBX220 as first option or EAW FR250.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 18, 2021, 12:05:11 pm
I know what I want, just trying to research which sub will give me the best chances for it. I won't be able to know beforehand how any particular sub will perform in this room but my research is narrowing down to EAW SBX220 as first option or EAW FR250.

Why are you stuck on PA cabs for home use? What are you doing in there?

This room is pretty much the size of my living room too and I use a single 12" Dayton sub in a large cabinet and it is just incredible. i don't want anything more than that. In fact it is a little too much. I'm running it on about half the power it could actually use.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 18, 2021, 12:16:02 pm
Why are you stuck on PA cabs for home use? What are you doing in there?

This room is pretty much the size of my living room too and I use a single 12" Dayton sub in a large cabinet and it is just incredible. i don't want anything more than that. In fact it is a little too much. I'm running it on about half the power it could actually use.

I am a bass freak, plain and simple. I have had Bose and Sony Surround systems in there with both powered and passive subs [12"] which didn'tt give enough bass as I would like. You are correct as people here complain that I use too much bass but..... For example 2 of them here came into the garage and found me sitting on top of the Sub at the side wall and their facial expression said it all but again.....

I have been researching more on omnidirectional and speaker placements trying to learn as much as I can. I still have to do some more experimenting before actually purchasing whatever sub but making a lot of progress with the info given here plus what I am finding on the net too.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 18, 2021, 12:35:33 pm
I am a bass freak, plain and simple. I have had Bose and Sony Surround systems in there with both powered and passive subs [12"] which didn'tt give enough bass as I would like. You are correct as people here complain that I use too much bass but..... For example 2 of them here came into the garage and found me sitting on top of the Sub at the side wall and their facial expression said it all but again.....

I have been researching more on omnidirectional and speaker placements trying to learn as much as I can. I still have to do some more experimenting before actually purchasing whatever sub but making a lot of progress with the info given here plus what I am finding on the net too.

What kind of music? That makes a big difference. Pink Floyd is entirely different than Outkast which is entirely different from Pipe Organ music.


https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-components/Speaker-Subwoofer-Cabinet-Enclosures
Shop here.

https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-18-Ultimax-Subwoofer-and-Cabinet-Package-300-7099
This would be an excellent choice. Buy two if you think you want to challenge the structural integrity of the garage. No cutting involved, but you will have to assemble the cabs and paint them if you feel like it.

These are true SUB woofers. They will dig deep and get loud down low. Stop messing around with PA cabs, because they are designed to get really really loud at a higher frequency and live through all manner of abuse. They are not typically designed to do what you are looking for.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 18, 2021, 12:37:32 pm
I would also posit that you haven't experienced true Home Theater bass. Sony and Bose make cheap crap that is marketed to people who don't know any better.
Title: Re: Multiple sub locations to even out room modes
Post by: Art Welter on May 18, 2021, 01:16:16 pm
I am a bass freak, plain and simple.

. I still have to do some more experimenting..
Mike,

The louder a single sub is in the wrong location in a small room, the more apparent the lack of bass in other spots will be. I've been in rooms where there is less bass literally sitting on the sub than across the room.

Bose and Sony Surround are toys with little output below 50Hz (missing the bottom octave of current pop music) and nothing close your Eliminator i in the chest kick region.

Experimenting with placement and measurement (listening alone takes too long chasing your tail) with multiple sub locations is going to be the way to get your freak on.
You can determine the best locations with speakers you presently own, just stuff the ports, EQ them for flat response down as low as you like to hear outside, then bring them in to test at a low volume inside.

Art

Title: Re: Multiple sub locations to even out room modes
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 18, 2021, 01:36:50 pm
Mike,

The louder a single sub is in the wrong location in a small room, the more apparent the lack of bass in other spots will be. I've been in rooms where there is less bass literally sitting on the sub than across the room.

Bose and Sony Surround are toys with little output below 50Hz (missing the bottom octave of current pop music) and nothing close your Eliminator i in the chest kick region.

Experimenting with placement and measurement (listening alone takes too long chasing your tail) with multiple sub locations is going to be the way to get your freak on.
You can determine the best locations with speakers you presently own, just stuff the ports, EQ them for flat response down as low as you like to hear outside, then bring them in to test at a low volume inside.

Art

Well yes guys, even though I am not an audiophile, I do understand that brands like Meyer, Klipsh e.t.c would offer better sub sound.

To be sure I understand the instruction, when you say "stuff the ports" you mean like fully clogging them with a towel then take them outside the garage and do the eq-ing?
Title: Re: Multiple sub locations to even out room modes
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 18, 2021, 01:49:20 pm
Well yes guys, even though I am not an audiophile, I do understand that brands like Meyer, Klipsh e.t.c would offer better sub sound.

To be sure I understand the instruction, when you say "stuff the ports" you mean like fully clogging them with a towel then take them outside the garage and do the eq-ing?

No. You still need some port free.

And not with towels. The idea is to "slow down" the air movement through the port. That makes it "seem" like a longer port (lower tuning) to the air that is moving through that port. An air filter type foam (open cell type) would be the best. You want some resistance, but not complete blockage.


If you have a sub with two ports you can completely block one of those ports and get the same effect, but if you only have one port you either want to make it smaller, or give it some resistance.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Matthias McCready on May 18, 2021, 03:27:26 pm
I am a bass freak, plain and simple. I have had Bose and Sony Surround systems in there with both powered and passive subs [12"] which didn'tt give enough bass as I would like.

To be fair neither Bose or Sony make a good sub  ::) I would rather not have a sub, than use one of those...

So let's step up the game.

Have you checked out something like an HSU Research VTF-15H MK2?

It gets uncomfortably loud; and you could always get a pair.
Title: Re: Multiple sub locations to even out room modes
Post by: Art Welter on May 18, 2021, 05:05:59 pm
To be sure I understand the instruction, when you say "stuff the ports" you mean like fully clogging them with a towel then take them outside the garage and do the eq-ing?
This instruction would be for using your top cabinets, or the Bose or Sony which would be easier to move around than actual subs. None of those cabinets will tune well <30 Hz, but can be equalized flat for low volume testing as sealed cabinets.

I'm using a pair of 6.5" & 5" equalized flat to 30 Hz for my apartment "home theater" subs, they can do about 90dB at the couch before farting out, that level is all you would need to test sub location.
Don't forget the up and down part of the placement equation.

Art
Title: Re: Multiple sub locations to even out room modes
Post by: Art Welter on May 18, 2021, 05:33:07 pm
The idea is to "slow down" the air movement through the port. That makes it "seem" like a longer port (lower tuning) to the air that is moving through that port. An air filter type foam (open cell type) would be the best. 
Tim,

Not my idea.

Dave Gunness (among others) says that an aperiodic port design as you describe has almost no acoustical mass and is dominated by resistance, so there is essentially no Fb, it operates simply as a resistive leak that damps the sealed box resonance.

Do you have some data that says otherwise you could share?

Art


Title: Re: Multiple sub locations to even out room modes
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 18, 2021, 05:52:26 pm
Tim,

Not my idea.

Dave Gunness (among others) says that an aperiodic port design as you describe has almost no acoustical mass and is dominated by resistance, so there is essentially no Fb, it operates simply as a resistive leak that damps the sealed box resonance.

Do you have some data that says otherwise you could share?

Art


I see where you are going then. I was assuming your wanted him to block one port, or partially fill a port to lower the actual port tuning to get a little more extension.

An Aperiodic port is something I haven't thought about in a long time. Used to be able to buy those filtered vents to make a smaller "sealed" box with.



So yeah, Mike forget what I said about the foam and stuff. Art (who is a pretty fart smeller) wants you to stuff your port with a towel or similar, then use EQ to boost the low-lows to a satisfactory level. You won't be able to play it very loud, but you will be able to get a very deep response out of your speaker this way. Until you run out of EQ, that is. You could however use this rig to test placement in your space to see where it sounds best.
Title: Re: Multiple sub locations to even out room modes
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 19, 2021, 03:38:44 pm

So yeah, Mike forget what I said about the foam and stuff. Art (who is a pretty fart smeller) wants you to stuff your port with a towel or similar, then use EQ to boost the low-lows to a satisfactory level. You won't be able to play it very loud, but you will be able to get a very deep response out of your speaker this way. Until you run out of EQ, that is. You could however use this rig to test placement in your space to see where it sounds best.

I don't know if it would make sense for me to try this guys simply because I have only 2 spots available which is where both speakers currently are so I am stuck with the situation. The only thing which can change is if you have the speakers facing forward or to the side.

Title: Re: Multiple sub locations to even out room modes
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 19, 2021, 03:51:06 pm
I don't know if it would make sense for me to try this guys simply because I have only 2 spots available which is where both speakers currently are so I am stuck with the situation. The only thing which can change is if you have the speakers facing forward or to the side.



Or that mysterious third diminsion. Yes, that's right. The thiiiiiird diminsion.....
Title: Re: Multiple sub locations to even out room modes
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 19, 2021, 11:03:12 pm


Or that mysterious third diminsion. Yes, that's right. The thiiiiiird diminsion.....


Tim I think Mike still has a processing issue, he has mentioned on numerous occassions when his friend comes by and "fixes" the DSP or crossover or whatever that things got better.  I don't think his drive is setup right.  The fact he is even remotely happy with the EV says something is seriously wrong, recall he replaced an SB1000 with the EV.  Before we bought our FBT/Meyer rig we used to hire an Aero50 with 20's underhung and SB1000's subs.  I can't even imagine the devastation if I tried to run an SB1000 in a two car garage, I mean seriously I would be concerned about structure of the building.


Whoever recommended the Dayton flat pack was a great on point economical option.  He can have a speaker with usable response below to close to 20hz.  But frankly if he likes the sound of the EV is that ULF extension what his goal is? 


Have you ever seen this companies flat packs?  They look interesting.  https://shop.gsgad.com/collections/martysub-by-gsg-flat-packs/products/full-marty-by-gsgtm-flat-pack-retail-pricing-single-unit-local-pickup-only  I have been wanting to put one together and try in my home theater.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Art Welter on May 20, 2021, 05:18:43 am

May 06, 2021, 12:39:29 pm DJ Forum
So guys, in my Garage's DJ Rig I turned on my equipment as normal and no sound from my passive EAW Sub. So to test, I removed the cable and plugged into my EV Eliminator i Series 15" full range speakers and I cannot believe the bass I am getting from it..

May 07, 2021, 10:07:07 am
It is the cabinet's Speakon connector which is the issue. I will wait on my sound system bud to come across to fix it and at the same time we will look into the possibility of using the EV Full Range as subs.

Reply #6 on: May 16, 2021, 02:25:59 pm
One day last couple weeks I had turned on my system and no sound was coming from the EAW SB1000 Sub which is always at my back wall facing forward.
I then as first test plugged the speaker cable from the EAW into my EV's full range to test and was totally surprised the I was hearing the bass more evenly anywhere in the room and even at the one trouble spot which is right in front of the garage's side door.
Mike,

After reading Scott Holtzman's comments in reply #45, then reading some of your DJ forum posts, makes me wonder if you, or your "sound system bud" wired one of the SB1000's drivers reversed polarity, or failed to get a proper connection to one driver, or one driver was dead when you bought it.

Dual-amplifier EAW Subwoofers may be wired so a Neutrik Speakon NL4 connector's pin 1+ and 1- only connect to one of the drivers.

Any of the above possibilities would result in poor bass output, and odd polar/room response from the SB-1000, without even considering the room modes in your 8'x10'x25' garage.
 
Add in not applying SB1000 EQ processing and filters, Rane crossover settings, and amp bridged/mono potential FUBARs, and you still have a lot to sort out before buying anything.

Art   




Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 20, 2021, 08:03:12 am
Mike,

After reading Scott Holtzman's comments in reply #45, then reading some of your DJ forum posts, makes me wonder if you, or your "sound system bud" wired one of the SB1000's drivers reversed polarity, or failed to get a proper connection to one driver, or one driver was dead when you bought it.

Any of the above possibilities would result in poor bass output, and odd polar/room response from the SB-1000, without even considering the room modes in your 8'x10'x25' garage.
 
Add in not applying SB1000 EQ processing and filters, Rane crossover settings, and amp bridged/mono potential FUBARs, and you still have a lot to sort out before buying anything.

Art

It's not at all the bass output of the SB1000 guys or any wiring or processing issues, it's dead spots at different places in that small room which is the issue. the room's acoustics Pandora's box issues is what I am battling. I had the same exact issues with the previous Sonic dual and and Cerwin Vega L36 subs. If this was an empty room then things would have been much better but all sorts of different objects placed along the back and side walls is further contributing to whole ordeal wreaking havoc with sound waves.

Also, this is only about bass with the Subs. I have zero issues placing Full Range speakers at the back wall.

Yes I love the sound of that SB1000 the most of all the different types of Cabs I have ever tried but that Sub was not designed for a one car garage as we all know. Yesterday I had put it in the middle of the room and cranked it up and it shook every inch of that garage but that is the only spot where I can get that effect and I can only hear the bass best when standing in front of it and not anywhere at it's side.

If I did not like heavy bass that much I would have looked for a good pair of Full range speakers which would give the heaviest bass with some throw but I could never find such a speaker.

@Scott
Just curios, what's the deal with that "flat pack" which would make it different from other Subs for "my" situation please?

Also, I am not "happy" with the EV's, as mentioned it does not give me the depth of the EAW, I was saying that they now give me more even bass at the different spots in room because of their placements and positioning.

Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 20, 2021, 08:13:00 am
It's not at all the bass output of the SB1000 guys or any wiring or processing issues, it's dead spots at different places in that small room which is the issue. the room's acoustics Pandora's box issues is what I am battling. I had the same exact issues with the previous Sonic dual and and Cerwin Vega L36 subs. If this was an empty room then things would have been much better but all sorts of different objects placed along the back and side walls is further contributing to whole ordeal wreaking havoc with sound waves.

Also, this is only about bass with the Subs. I have zero issues placing Full Range speakers at the back wall.

Yes I love the sound of that SB1000 the most of all the different types of Cabs I have ever tried but that Sub was not designed for a one car garage as we all know. Yesterday I had put it in the middle of the room and cranked it up and it shook every inch of that garage but that is the only spot where I can get that effect and I can only hear the bass best when standing in front of it and not anywhere at it's side.

If I did not like heavy bass that much I would have looked for a good pair of Full range speakers which would give the heaviest bass with some throw but I could never find such a speaker.

@Scott
Just curios, what's the deal with that "flat pack" which would make it different from other Subs for "my" situation please?


A flat pack is just the a kit to build your own, it's flat because the boards are shipped stacked.  Unlike the commercial subs you are trying this speaker actually has usable output at 19hz.  It's a bargain, just add glue and go!



Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 20, 2021, 08:36:27 am

A flat pack is just the a kit to build your own, it's flat because the boards are shipped stacked.  Unlike the commercial subs you are trying this speaker actually has usable output at 19hz.  It's a bargain, just add glue and go!

I am not seeing any reviews on this item or it's application? Also when researching this item I am also seeing "G sub" which I have come across many threads on it on other forums, why is that Cab so popular?
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on May 20, 2021, 09:44:26 am
(snip)
It gets uncomfortably loud; and you could always get a pair.

Everyone has a different definition of "uncomfortably loud" when it comes to subs.  I've had (4) TH118 subs running full tilt from an X4 amp in a small room not much larger than a large living room, and still could have doubled the quantity. 

Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Matthias McCready on May 20, 2021, 10:10:03 am
Everyone has a different definition of "uncomfortably loud" when it comes to subs.  I've had (4) TH118 subs running full tilt from an X4 amp in a small room not much larger than a large living room, and still could have doubled the quantity.

This is true (especially with you and subs  ;D ;D ;D )
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 20, 2021, 10:20:56 am
Everyone has a different definition of "uncomfortably loud" when it comes to subs.  I've had (4) TH118 subs running full tilt from an X4 amp in a small room not much larger than a large living room, and still could have doubled the quantity.

Yes that's right. Loud bass for me is certainly not what it means to the average person. I like 2 types of bass, depth to shake the ground and punch to hit your chest but that's for outdoors or large halls e.t.c. I have always been on the lookout for one cab design which can do both but could never find one, it's either or.
Title: Re: What is it which makes someone understand
Post by: Art Welter on May 20, 2021, 11:14:54 am
1)It's not at all the bass output of the SB1000 guys or any wiring or processing issues, it's dead spots at different places in that small room which is the issue.
2)Yes I love the sound of that SB1000 the most of all the different types of Cabs I have ever tried but that Sub was not designed for a one car garage as we all know.
3)Yesterday I had put it in the middle of the room and cranked it up and it shook every inch of that garage but that is the only spot where I can get that effect and I can only hear the bass best when standing in front of it and not anywhere at it's side.
4)If I did not like heavy bass that much I would have looked for a good pair of Full range speakers which would give the heaviest bass with some throw but I could never find such a speaker.
5)Also, I am not "happy" with the EV's, as mentioned it does not give me the depth of the EAW, I was saying that they now give me more even bass at the different spots in room because of their placements and positioning.
Mike,
1)Good to hear that.
2)Subs have three basic attributes- clean SPL output capability, bandwidth, and size.
3)Any sub level will drop 6 dB SPL each doubling of distance outdoors, but your listening position is not outdoors, levels can change twice that in a few feet indoors. At 40Hz, a drop of 6 dB will sound about half as loud.
4) "Throw" is a meaningless term- any sub of the size you would consider putting in your room will loose almost exactly the same SPL with distance.
5) In your 8'h x10'w x25'L room, the four foot depth of the SB-1000 is half the ceiling height and almost half the width. It will probably work best (reducing two reflections) set on a few 2x4s with the speaker end pointed up or down against a wall or corner. 
I'll repeat, you could test positioning much easier with a smaller sub that is equalized to the same response as the SB-1000.
Another tip: Reciprocity- if you want the loudest response to be in a certain place in the room, put the sub there, with the noise-making end where your ears/chest will be, then walk around the room until you find the loudest/ best sounding place. Put your loudest sub there, then repeat with your flanking subs.

Good luck,
have fun!

Art

Title: Re: What is it which makes someone understand
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 20, 2021, 12:44:52 pm
Mike
5) In your 8'h x10'w x25'L room, the four foot depth of the SB-1000 is half the ceiling height and almost half the width. It will probably work best (reducing two reflections) set on a few 2x4s with the speaker end pointed up or down against a wall or corner. 
I'll repeat, you could test positioning much easier with a smaller sub that is equalized to the same response as the SB-1000.
Another tip: Reciprocity- if you want the loudest response to be in a certain place in the room, put the sub there, with the noise-making end where your ears/chest will be, then walk around the room until you find the loudest/ best sounding place. Put your loudest sub there, then repeat with your flanking subs.

Good luck,
have fun!

I appreciate all of the help and advice from you guys here. I now have a much better understanding of my situation, it is what it is.

Art
Title: Re: Multiple sub locations to even out room modes
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 20, 2021, 01:16:25 pm


Whoever recommended the Dayton flat pack was a great on point economical option.  He can have a speaker with usable response below to close to 20hz. 
That was me.  8)
Quote
Have you ever seen this companies flat packs?  They look interesting.  https://shop.gsgad.com/collections/martysub-by-gsg-flat-packs/products/full-marty-by-gsgtm-flat-pack-retail-pricing-single-unit-local-pickup-only  I have been wanting to put one together and try in my home theater.
I have not, but then again I own a tablesaw. 


I suggested the flat pack from Parts Express simply because I think what Mike needs is a home theater type sub. It will be smaller than the SB1000 and the Eliminator, but it will dig a lot deeper than both. And a single 18 will be plenty for a 1 car garage. And if it isn't build another.

Mike also mentioned he wasn't interested in diy, but I don't count this as real DIY. The hard part is all done already and you glue and screw it together, add the driver and go. Doesn't even need paint.

The sealed single 18 form factor gives him the most options for placement since it's so small. Should be easier to experiment with.
Title: Re: Multiple sub locations to even out room modes
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 20, 2021, 01:49:28 pm
That was me.  8) I have not, but then again I own a tablesaw. 


I suggested the flat pack from Parts Express simply because I think what Mike needs is a home theater type sub. It will be smaller than the SB1000 and the Eliminator, but it will dig a lot deeper than both. And a single 18 will be plenty for a 1 car garage. And if it isn't build another.

Mike also mentioned he wasn't interested in diy, but I don't count this as real DIY. The hard part is all done already and you glue and screw it together, add the driver and go. Doesn't even need paint.

The sealed single 18 form factor gives him the most options for placement since it's so small. Should be easier to experiment with.

I have had a Sony surround system in there for years now which I use only for FM listening whenever and that system does work for it's purpose.

I can agree that where bass is concerned that a home theater type sub would be the most effective way to go but this will not give me the overall sound and tone I need in an old school DJ system. Way I see it my choice will be to either keep the PA/DJ system and accept and live with the room acoustics situation or go with the multiple Subs Home theatre system. I will need to step back and think about this guys.

To cap off, should I decide to go with the flat pack of which I will need at least 2, the Parts Express version will be the better of the 2 mentioned in this thread?
Title: Re: Multiple sub locations to even out room modes
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 20, 2021, 02:40:09 pm
I have had a Sony surround system in there for years now which I use only for FM listening whenever and that system does work for it's purpose.

I can agree that where bass is concerned that a home theater type sub would be the most effective way to go but this will not give me the overall sound and tone I need in an old school DJ system. Way I see it my choice will be to either keep the PA/DJ system and accept and live with the room acoustics situation or go with the multiple Subs Home theatre system. I will need to step back and think about this guys.

To cap off, should I decide to go with the flat pack of which I will need at least 2, the Parts Express version will be the better of the 2 mentioned in this thread?


Did you look at the sub kit I linked?

It is absolutely not comparable to a sony or bose HT system. Those are crap.


A pair of those Dayton subs would be usable for a small club DJ rig in my opinion. A single would be more than sufficient for your garage. I mean, it is a 18" driver. It just has a lot more excursion than most PA drivers.


But you do you man. It is beginning to look like all you want is some confirmation bias about your garage system.

To fix your problem of sitting in a null, you move your sub. There is no other option.

To fix the problem of not enough/bad quality of bass you get a different sub. There is no other option. Since you already have an SB1000 I'd look at restoring that back to 100% factory specs. It's can't be working right if you still have a problem with it.

I'm not sure what else you are searching for. The answers are here.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 20, 2021, 03:43:31 pm
I am not seeing any reviews on this item or it's application? Also when researching this item I am also seeing "G sub" which I have come across many threads on it on other forums, why is that Cab so popular?


I think you would want the Full Marty and use the Eminence driver.  19hz extension.  Audiogon forum I believe has lots of talk about these, the designs were created a while ago but this company took the time to put it together for CNC and easy assembly for those of us (like me) that are joinery challenged. 
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Mike Henderson on May 27, 2021, 10:25:24 am
To update guys, we put the eaw back where it was at the middle of the back wall facing forward as normal and together with the EV Sub at the middle of the side wall, this did the trick. So yes, the "flanking" method works. I can now hear the bass more evenly [not perfect but good enough] at the usual problem spots in the room.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 27, 2021, 12:56:32 pm
To update guys, we put the eaw back where it was at the middle of the back wall facing forward as normal and together with the EV Sub at the middle of the side wall, this did the trick. So yes, the "flanking" method works. I can now hear the bass more evenly [not perfect but good enough] at the usual problem spots in the room.

It's the room, not the sub.  Room dimensions and ratio.  Placement of the sub(s) is the only thing you can control short of building a new space.
Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on July 30, 2021, 01:45:31 am
I am not seeing any reviews on this item or it's application? Also when researching this item I am also seeing "G sub" which I have come across many threads on it on other forums, why is that Cab so popular?


Their kits are supposed to be nice, I forgot what audio forum that reviews home made speakers raves about them. 


I have taken the plunge yet because my woodworking skills are so subpar I am not confident I could actually assemble it straight.  What's sad is my father was a builder and a master carpenter.  I guess it's ok because he couldn't solder and use to splice his extension cords with friction tape.  I swear he had one 100' orange special that was 20 years old, had a plug that the old cardboard piece that went between the prongs was gone and had 10 splices in it.  Oh and he wrapped it around his elbow. 





Title: Re: What is it which makes a subwoofer "omnidirectional"?
Post by: Steve-White on July 30, 2021, 02:39:31 am
What kind of music? That makes a big difference. Pink Floyd is entirely different than Outkast which is entirely different from Pipe Organ music.

https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-components/Speaker-Subwoofer-Cabinet-Enclosures
Shop here.

https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-18-Ultimax-Subwoofer-and-Cabinet-Package-300-7099
This would be an excellent choice. Buy two if you think you want to challenge the structural integrity of the garage. No cutting involved, but you will have to assemble the cabs and paint them if you feel like it.

These are true SUB woofers. They will dig deep and get loud down low. Stop messing around with PA cabs, because they are designed to get really really loud at a higher frequency and live through all manner of abuse. They are not typically designed to do what you are looking for.

The Dayton Ultimax sound great for a home system.  There's a 15" in a Parts Express enclosure and the dual 2 ohm VS is pushed by a Crown XTi 1002 in the studio system.  It sounds real good and has lots of grunt below 40hz.