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 1 
 on: Today at 07:14:05 PM 
Started by JohnReeve - Last post by Brian Jojade
If you're THAT close to failure that safety equipment is going to need to shut you down, it simply means you don't have enough rig for the gig.

An alternative to operator self control is to size your amps smaller and have more boxes so that even if you run into 'stupid mode' you don't have to worry about the system shutting down.  With smaller amps, you can drive into stupid and not worry about burning up the speakers.  The old concept of matching an amp to the 'peak' power rating of a speaker works for typical live music with a dynamic range. It lets you squeeze out a bit more for those short bursts of sound needed. For most speakers, the 'peak' rating is 4X the continuous RMS rating.

Pre-recorded music would be the 'program' power rating of the speaker. This is typically double continuous RMS rating. Again, it's taking into account the normal dynamic range of music.  EDM has very little dynamic range in comparison, so you run into problems with this much power.

For EDM music, you want to size your amps to be at the continuous rating of the speaker for operators that know enough not to drive the amp into solid peak all night.  For idiot operators, you want an amp sized at HALF the continuous rating.  If you use the smaller amp, there is very little chance they'll be able to blow up the speaker.

Yes, you'll need more speaker boxes to get the output you desire, but it might be cheaper to do that than to pay for regular repairs.

 2 
 on: Today at 06:32:45 PM 
Started by JohnReeve - Last post by Dave Garoutte
Some of the more highend powered speakers have this tech built in and rack amplifiers like the latest LabGruppens and Powersofts can monitor and display speaker impedance load in real time, and an end user can use that to help dial in some of thier own limiting profiles.
As do the Danley (Linea) amps.

 3 
 on: Today at 05:47:39 PM 
Started by JohnReeve - Last post by Paul G. OBrien
Sorry if this is a too-basic question, but do people building these kinds of systems ever integrate temperature sensors on the drivers and some kind of breaker that shuts down stuff before it destroys itself? 

The more advanced modern systems have this but doing so doesn't actually require thermo sensors inside the drivers. Loudspeakers follow a well documented behavour as power levels are increased, the voice coil impedance increases from it's nominal rating as it heats and continues to do so in a predictable manner until it reaches the melting point of the glue holding it to the VC former where the driver is moments from complete destruction. So if a manufacturer has detailed data on a drivers thermal behavour in a particular enclosure alignment all they have to do is monitor the current flowing between the amp and speaker to determine the power it is dissipating and then infer how much waste heat is being generating, and then take appropriate limiting action to allow the driver to cool off.
Some of the more highend powered speakers have this tech built in and rack amplifiers like the latest LabGruppens and Powersofts can monitor and display speaker impedance load in real time, and an end user can use that to help dial in some of thier own limiting profiles.

 4 
 on: Today at 05:25:50 PM 
Started by JohnReeve - Last post by Scott Carneval
If they were using a single-stage limiter they were most likely just knocking down the peaks of the signal, which in turn actually raises the RMS level of the signal. If your only tool is a dbx Driverack, you can set the input compressor to a ratio of ∞:1 and set the attack time to something like 2 seconds and the release to something like 8 seconds. Setting the threshold is a bit trickier, you will either need to measure the voltage with a multimeter and a sine wave, or you can set it by subtracting 6dB from the peak limiter threshold. Setting it with a multimeter is safer. Doing it this way you will have effectively created a 2-stage limiter and it's safer for the speakers.

As for an off-the-shelf solution, look at the Drawmer SP2120 https://www.drawmer.com/products/protection/sp2120-speaker-protector.php


 5 
 on: Today at 04:36:27 PM 
Started by JohnReeve - Last post by Tim McCulloch
Thanks for the replies-- especially the detailed response from Paul.

I appreciate the answers and I will dig into the search on the forum.

I was mostly hoping that there was some class of tool that I just hadn't encountered for this, but the responses all make sense:

things are likely too complicated to simply measure "how much power has been output at 40Hz in the last hour/4-hours/12-hours" and get a likely temperature for the driver, and compare that with some number from the manufacturer to determine if they are safe to keep operating, but I was curious if I just had nott heard a good solution.

Sorry if this is a too-basic question, but do people building these kinds of systems ever integrate temperature sensors on the drivers and some kind of breaker that shuts down stuff before it destroys itself? 

Like, it seems like the kind of thing that could be implemented without a whole lot of equipment. At the same time, I usually assume that when folks aren't using that kind of thing, it is because it's not a relevant or useful thing for some reason, but I'm often curious why that is.

The basic reasons any moving transducer fails are 1) heat; 2) mechanical limits exceeded.

There has been prior discussion about heat measurement in real time and subsequent modeling of expected heat behavior by the DSP.  Why we don't see those is that actually embedding sensors into magnet structures and/or voice coils is a far trickier process that one might imagine and that the vast majority of users of loudspeaker transducers do not need and will not pay for such things.

The biggest chunk of money in professional audio is in the commercial side:  installations in public facilities like airports, court houses, retail centers... all kinds of places where music or voice (or both) are part of the environment and daily use of the facility.  In most of those uses the VC excursion or VC temps are not the primary considerations in system protection.  Realize these uses account for close to 10x the revenue for manufactures and that concert/touring gear is maybe 10% of revenues.  That said, as DSP gets cheaper and cheaper it's only a matter of time before the modeling you propose may well be a "last ditch protection" scheme that mutes a rig before imminent failure.  Anything that genuinely protects against willful over-use of the system will not be subtle, transparent, or even sound very good... and maybe that's a good thing.  ;)

EDM is a whole 'nother matter, where LF in particular is flogged within millimeters of its life.

 6 
 on: Today at 03:35:57 PM 
Started by Andrew Broughton - Last post by Andrew Broughton
Ordered the Siglent.
Anyone ever done a scan import into WWB? Guess I should check Pete’s site first…

 7 
 on: Today at 03:33:09 PM 
Started by JohnReeve - Last post by JohnReeve
Thanks for the replies-- especially the detailed response from Paul.

I appreciate the answers and I will dig into the search on the forum.

I was mostly hoping that there was some class of tool that I just hadn't encountered for this, but the responses all make sense:

things are likely too complicated to simply measure "how much power has been output at 40Hz in the last hour/4-hours/12-hours" and get a likely temperature for the driver, and compare that with some number from the manufacturer to determine if they are safe to keep operating, but I was curious if I just had nott heard a good solution.

Sorry if this is a too-basic question, but do people building these kinds of systems ever integrate temperature sensors on the drivers and some kind of breaker that shuts down stuff before it destroys itself? 

Like, it seems like the kind of thing that could be implemented without a whole lot of equipment. At the same time, I usually assume that when folks aren't using that kind of thing, it is because it's not a relevant or useful thing for some reason, but I'm often curious why that is.

 8 
 on: Today at 03:13:27 PM 
Started by Ron Bolte - Last post by Dan Mortensen
LIKE

JR

Same.

 9 
 on: Today at 01:50:09 PM 
Started by Eddie Ybarra - Last post by Magnus Högkvist
Now the midi out of the Motu splits off via a Midi Solutions Quadra Thru to two different places, the first thing it goes to is my Avid SC48 for the snapshot automation and the second split goes to a Road Hog 4 with midi/LTC widget and that's where the problems start. Now the SC48 can receive midi patch changes or MTC I've used both before and both work fine but for what ever reason the Hog widget will see the incoming midi signal but the board it self won't see it. Now the lighting guy keeps saying that I'm doing something wrong or it's Logic not sending a good signal but if my board works fine why doesn't his so I disagree there but then again who knows but that why I'm here asking for more input.

Is the console correctly setup? https://www.etcconnect.com/webdocs/Controls/HOG/HTML/en/sect-midi_timecode.htm

You can't "give more input" with midi.

 10 
 on: Today at 11:50:14 AM 
Started by Douglas Cyr - Last post by Brian Jojade
What Erik said.

FWIW, I've never blown out any gear by connecting the transmitter.  I have had it make undesirable noise when connected to an active input, but no damage was done.

However, I HAVE had systems blow out the transmitter on me.  Once plugged into an older phone system that used some non-standard way of supplying power to the phones.  Transmitter dead.  Day ruined.  Now, this was a super el-cheapo transmitter, but that unexpected voltage killed it on the spot.

When tracing wires, it's generally good to TRY and make sure you're dealing with dry lines whenever possible.

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