Post by: Paul Reedy on June 09, 2018, 09:35:46 AM
The sound has to cover a 180 degree horizontal span. It has a center cluster of 3 EAW point source speakers, the center has a wider dispersion than the 2 on the sides since it has to cover more in the middle. all 3 together cover the 180 degree range properly. If anything, the first 3 rows may not get much direct sound as there is a protrusion out the front center where the pastor resides. The subs are EAW SB250's, one on each side of this "pod" we call it. Overall, the sound is even around the room, the room is open, but the chairs are arranged where there are aisles in the zones between speakers.
We have a member of the congregation that's promised a large donation for the worship team to use as they see fit. I personally suggested a new board (Midas M32) and an iMac for the sound board.
The music leader wants to change out the speakers we have with a line array system. I'm not sure how I feel about this since we really don't have problems with bad sound, lack of sound, or loud areas.
The systems quoted so far from a local guy that works for a medium sized firm has submitted 2 quotes, one with JBL VRX, and another with QSC KLA line arrays. 9 speakers each, so a 3x3 array. While this might bring more volume to the first few rows, I'm just wondering if 1) Is this really going to make a big difference in sound, and 2) are we 'downgrading' by going with JBL or QSC. Both quotes replace our current SB250 subs with Dual 18" subs. I've even suggested that we try looking at EAW line array speakers and keeping our existing subs.
The quote did suggest an Allen & Heath SQ6, which I find intriguing, or a soundcraft SI impact mixer, which I'm not familiar with. I think the A&H board looks great, just wonder about ease of use with some of the other members. My initial recommendation for the M32, I think our guys could pick up using it fairly easily. We currently use a Presonus 24.4.2 mixer which hangs up if I plug my laptop into it, so I can't use my ipad anymore to mix, so a new mixer is needed.
Thoughts?
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on June 09, 2018, 10:21:57 AM
Do you know the model of the current EAW speakers? You mentioned sub model numbers but not the mains.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Post by: Don T. Williams on June 09, 2018, 12:30:32 PM
Post by: Scott Holtzman on June 09, 2018, 02:39:17 PM
The QSC's are K12's turned on the side with rigging clips. It's about the only abomination that QSC has ever done.
I hope you have enough pull to derail this. Instead of the music director specing a type of speaker (we need a line array) have him communicate how the current system is deficient. Then you choose the speakers that will best address that deficiency.
Hopefully that will cause them to focus their thinking and be proper stewards of the funds.
Post by: Paul Reedy on June 09, 2018, 04:12:11 PM
I'm not trying to disparage either speaker manufacturer, but these are not "line array" systems. They do not act as line sources at any frequency. Both companies do offer several "line array" systems. I can't be sure from the limited information given, but I don't think your room would benefit from a true line array system (if such an animal actually exists). Keep in mind that line array/line source systems need to be long - probably at least 8 ft. (and the longer the better) to act as line sources for a significant portion of the audio spectrum. And yes, I own and use a couple of line source/line array systems. They aren't perfect, but they work for me in the right situation.
Don, I forget the model number. They're legacy now as they're 15 years old. I can't even find anything online that looks like them. I know it's a 12" 2 way speaker. If I remember correctly, the center one has a 90 degree horizontal, while the outer 2 has 50 degree.
Post by: Simon_Barrett on June 09, 2018, 06:55:27 PM
As an acoustic consultant for my day job and frustrated sound engineer as a hobby, isn’t even coverage the main thing of importance? (Whilst sounding good of course). If you have a short throw as in your front wall is the long wall then a line array really isn’t the thing to have.
Maybe new point source boxes would work but only from a modernisation point of view.
Invest in a new console or mics or iems or stuff that’s gonna make your life easier.
Blessings,
Simon
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Jason Glass on June 09, 2018, 07:34:07 PM
Invest in a new console or mics or iems or stuff that’s gonna make your life easier.
I'd like to suggest feeding and clothing more poor people than the congregation was able to before the donation, to make their lives easier.
Post by: Dave Pluke on June 09, 2018, 08:25:03 PM
We have a member of the congregation that's promised a large donation for the worship team to use as they see fit. I personally suggested a new board (Midas M32) and an iMac for the sound board.
The M32 is a proven commodity and it plays very well with iPads and Behringer's P16-M wired IEM controllers. Having worked (and trained volunteers) on such a system for over a year in a HoW, I think it's a better choice than the other consoles mentioned for your application. Add stage boxes and digital snakes as appropriate.
And, as already mentioned, those aren't Line Arrays - they're placebos. Focus everyone's thoughts on the console functionality and don't fix what ain't broke. A nicely tuned center cluster can be a beautiful thing.
Maybe a couple of small, unobtrusive powered front fill speakers to cover the gaps will keep everyone happy?
Dave
Post by: Lee Buckalew on June 09, 2018, 09:38:20 PM
I'd like to suggest feeding and clothing more poor people than the congregation was able to before the donation, to make their lives easier.
Jason,
While I can appreciate your sentiment any donation to a charitable organization that is earmarked for a specific use by the donor must be used for that purpose unless the donor provides a written statement changing the terms of the donation.
Lee
Post by: Jason Glass on June 09, 2018, 10:29:26 PM
Jason,
While I can appreciate your sentiment any donation to a charitable organization that is earmarked for a specific use by the donor must be used for that purpose unless the donor provides a written statement changing the terms of the donation.
Lee
I perfectly understand restricted vs. unrestricted donations, but find it repugnant to purposefully waste money on unneeded equipment simply because a misguided donor is willing to do it. This is a perfect opportunity for a good pastor to educate the donor about good works, and resist the temptation to accept money just because he can. I digress, though, and apologize for posting off-topic.
https://www.thebalancesmb.com/restricted-unrestricted-nonprofit-funds-2502167 (https://www.thebalancesmb.com/restricted-unrestricted-nonprofit-funds-2502167)
Post by: Paul Reedy on June 10, 2018, 12:42:13 AM
Post by: Paul Reedy on June 10, 2018, 01:03:27 AM
Another thing I didn't agree with was the amplifiers that were suggested would not be thermally compatible with the amps we have now. We have all Crown amps which suck in the front and blow out the sides in the rack, and to put a QSC or other amp that sucks in from the back wouldn't be a good idea.
Post by: Simon_Barrett on June 10, 2018, 02:28:13 AM
I'd like to suggest feeding and clothing more poor people than the congregation was able to before the donation, to make their lives easier.
Touché and point well made. That would be a much better use of the money!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Rob Spence on June 10, 2018, 04:42:28 PM
Touché and point well made. That would be a much better use of the money!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, they can always take the existing AV budget and help the needy while refilling the AV from the donation.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Post by: David Allred on June 10, 2018, 05:01:44 PM
We have a member of the congregation that's promised a large donation for the worship team to use as they see fit. I personally suggested a new board (Midas M32) and an iMac for the sound board.
The music leader wants to change out the speakers we have with a line array system. I'm not sure how I feel about this since we really don't have problems with bad sound, lack of sound, or loud areas.
Thoughts?
The member specified "as they see fit". Of course that probably meant within the music realm. I wonder if the member is telling the music leader they don't sound as good as he would like. ;D
Post by: Simon_Barrett on June 10, 2018, 05:42:46 PM
...I wonder if the member is telling the music leader they don't sound as good as he would like. ;DVocal training?!
just kidding.It’s wonderful to know your congregation give like this. I am sure ours would too but currently our tech budget is generally what I buy to donate to the equipment such as recently a pair of dbx 266xl comps and some decent insert leads. Glad to have done it though!
Maybe your team and other church leaders should get together and have a prayer session for wisdom on what to spend it on? (Maybe this has already been done).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 11, 2018, 12:51:15 PM
Doing something to FIX a SPECIFIC problem is a different story.
If your current speaker system is working fine-keep it, and get some tools that do need upgrading.
But if you do change the speaker system-BE SURE to make the designer accountable for the design and make them understand that if it is not an upgrade, you want the old system reinstalled at no charge.
All to often systems are swapped out, and the results are worse than the old one. That is NOT progress. Make sure you move forward, or else you are just wasting the Churches money and it is working for the intended purpose.
Post by: scottstephens on June 11, 2018, 02:06:40 PM
In my humble opinion, you are not going to convince someone who is not technical about why the something they want will not technically work. You need to sit down with that person and ask what it is they are not happy with and why is it that they think they need a "line array". They may not ever "get" the technical side, but at least you can get them to put their resources to better uses.
I will say that being a person who used the JF series 3-wide in a church, they do get "tired" after about a dozen years. We upgraded to a "line array looking" EV QRX system and it does a pretty job, not my favorite system but I didn't pay for it.
Good Luck
Scott
Post by: Mike Caldwell on June 11, 2018, 02:59:32 PM
Post by: Paul Reedy on June 12, 2018, 09:30:11 AM
Check that your current speakers are all working correctly as in no blown drivers. Maybe an upgrade in system processing would be something to think about.
I'm not real familiar with system processing, what job would this device use, and do you have an example of some that I can look at?
Post by: Paul Reedy on June 12, 2018, 09:35:23 AM
There is one thing going on, some kind of buzz or rattle when a certain note is played on the keyboard. The music director says he doesn't hear it in the IEM, but we all hear it coming from above, so we're going to get on a lift and see what's causing that. Could mean a speaker repair, or it could be something vibrating in the ceiling.
It sounds like the board we're going with is the A&H SQ-6, so excited to get my hands on that one.
Post by: Mike Caldwell on June 12, 2018, 09:56:45 AM
I'm not real familiar with system processing, what job would this device use, and do you have an example of some that I can look at?
What model EAW speakers are in the flown array?
They may be bi-amped or passive, either way you have to have some form of crossover in the system as it is now to crossover between your subwoofer and the flown mains. If the flown mains are passive you would have a crossover/DSP operating in a two way mode, if the mains are bi-amped the crossover/DSP would be operating in a three way mode.
The crossover could be in many forms from a rack mount unit, built into an amp or even a nondescript black box stuck somewhere in the equipment rack.
If there is no crossover of any sort in the system that could be one your issues.
If you turn off the main speakers, what sound comes out of the subwoofer, is it low and rumbly or can you hear mid range and some vocals.
Post a couple pictures of the equipment rack.
You post about hearing a buzzing sound when certain notes are played could be a mechanical vibration in the building or a bad woofer...or two in the main speakers.
A proper crossover in the system would filter the low frequency out of the signal feeding the main speakers, if it is not excessive low frequency has been beating on your mains and may have damage the woofers.
Post by: Simon_Barrett on June 12, 2018, 06:04:06 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Taylor Phillips on June 12, 2018, 10:13:44 PM
Quick follow up, I spoke to the Music Director, and the Sr Pastor and went over my concerns.Something like this happened at a place I volunteered on sound for a while - one particular not seemed to cause a loud buzzing in the ceiling. Fixed it with a parametric EQ on the main out.
There is one thing going on, some kind of buzz or rattle when a certain note is played on the keyboard.
Post by: Paul Reedy on June 13, 2018, 09:12:49 AM
What model EAW speakers are in the flown array?
They may be bi-amped or passive, either way you have to have some form of crossover in the system as it is now to crossover between your subwoofer and the flown mains. If the flown mains are passive you would have a crossover/DSP operating in a two way mode, if the mains are bi-amped the crossover/DSP would be operating in a three way mode.
...
Not exactly sure of the model flying, they could be JF260's, I just have to go back and look at the drawings. They are passive speakers, they are not bi-amped.
Yes, there is a crossover in the amp rack.
Post by: Kevin Maxwell on June 13, 2018, 10:42:40 AM
Quick follow up, I spoke to the Music Director, and the Sr Pastor and went over my concerns.
There is one thing going on, some kind of buzz or rattle when a certain note is played on the keyboard. The music director says he doesn't hear it in the IEM, but we all hear it coming from above, so we're going to get on a lift and see what's causing that. Could mean a speaker repair, or it could be something vibrating in the ceiling.
It sounds like the board we're going with is the A&H SQ-6, so excited to get my hands on that one.
Be sure to try the SQ6 before buying. I had one on loan for almost 2 months and I didn't like it. It sounds fine but was a pain to get around on. The interface was weird and not what I would call logical. It has a lot of good things about it and a lot I don't like. It also is in serious need of a firmware upgrade that is due out sometime in the 3rd quarter of this year. It is incomplete at this moment and we don't know if the update will fix all of that.
BTW the easiest way to pinpoint the buzzing is to use a sweep tone generator and sweep thru the frequencies. They are available for your smart phone. As you slowly sweep you will hear the specific frequency that is buzzing and will be able to find it relatively easily. You want one that has the ability to smoothly sweep thru the tone, not a step generator. Once you find the offending frequency set it to constantly play that frequency and then go and hunt for the issue while playing that tone as low as you can and having it still buzzing.
For the Android phone i use this one.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.keuwl.functiongenerator
It's a little clunky to use but it preforms well. You can even set it to do a sweep with the high and low frequencies defined by you.
Do you have any pictures or links to pictures of the interior of the church?
Post by: John L Nobile on June 13, 2018, 03:37:10 PM
For the Android phone i use this one.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.keuwl.functiongenerator
Nice app. Thanks for posting that. I'm sure it'll come in handy.
Post by: Paul Reedy on June 14, 2018, 10:21:31 AM
Be sure to try the SQ6 before buying. I had one on loan for almost 2 months and I didn't like it. It sounds fine but was a pain to get around on. The interface was weird and not what I would call logical. It has a lot of good things about it and a lot I don't like. It also is in serious need of a firmware upgrade that is due out sometime in the 3rd quarter of this year. It is incomplete at this moment and we don't know if the update will fix all of that.
BTW the easiest way to pinpoint the buzzing is to use a sweep tone generator and sweep thru the frequencies. They are available for your smart phone. As you slowly sweep you will hear the specific frequency that is buzzing and will be able to find it relatively easily. You want one that has the ability to smoothly sweep thru the tone, not a step generator. Once you find the offending frequency set it to constantly play that frequency and then go and hunt for the issue while playing that tone as low as you can and having it still buzzing.
For the Android phone i use this one.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.keuwl.functiongenerator
It's a little clunky to use but it preforms well. You can even set it to do a sweep with the high and low frequencies defined by you.
Do you have any pictures or links to pictures of the interior of the church?
Thanks, I do have a signal generator, a desktop unit as well as mobile app. I plan to do a sweep, unless they get the local guy to do it.
Thing is, they’ll have to rent a lift to get up there to find the source of the vibration.
I had some pics, but can’t find them now. I’ll get some tonight before practice.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: brian maddox on June 14, 2018, 03:39:48 PM
The sound system at our church I think is very decent. It was designed by a well known audio firm, and came with all the CAD drawings of the system...
The sound has to cover a 180 degree horizontal span...
..Overall, the sound is even around the room...
The music leader wants to change out the speakers we have with a line array system...
I’m going to preface my comments with some personal bio, even though I hate doing that.
I’ve been in varsity pro sound for about 25 years. For about 8 years, fairly recently, I “took a break from SR” and was a Full Time Music Director at a 2000 attendance contemporary US church.
During my entire tenure at the church, I never made any significant suggestions with regards to the sound system in our building, even though I was fairly certain about it’s limitations and what would be required to solve them. For one main reason. I spent 99 percent of my time BEHIND THE PA!
If there is one thing that makes me crazy about US churches, it’s the power that music directors wield over technical matters when they lack either the knowledge, the actual practical experience, or both, to have anything remotely like an informed opinion on the subject.
Sorry. I realize my rant is not helpful to your actual situation. But I do have a certain sense of “frustration from a distance” at money being earmarked and spent by two people (the donor and the MD) in no position to wisely use the resources.
The whole “it’d be better with a line array” is a rant I won’t even bother to indulge.
Good luck and I hope whatever you spend the money on yields nothing but the best results. Honestly!
Post by: Paul Reedy on June 14, 2018, 08:52:17 PM
For now I’ve put a notch on the main output.
Pics
Oh ignore the old JBLs in the back. I shut those off years ago because they don’t belong. Plus they were causing feedback issues.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180615/880285eaa21270ed9e9d714181071656.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180615/01ec0bbe81ed3b5f05eb6ae2fe95afb0.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180615/4bb730f14d0fec2552af107c6016736d.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Jean-Pierre Coetzee on June 17, 2018, 11:58:09 AM
I can imagine you wouldn't have too many issues with the actual sound and the speakers have been up there for a long time but it would be a good time to check all the rigging that nothing is worn up there and to take some of the stuff out that shouldn't be there.
I don't know much about those boxes but I don't think that the angle on those eye bolts are within spec.
Post by: Simon_Barrett on June 17, 2018, 03:34:14 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Ken Webster on June 28, 2018, 04:40:03 AM
PS. I have used a rolled up pair of winter socks to locate physical vibrations, just keep touching things till it stops.
Post by: Tim Weaver on June 28, 2018, 04:37:41 PM
Anyways, they need to come down. If you need coverage in those areas, just get a 2" horn and a flare to point wherever they are covering. You'll have plenty of low and mids coming off the main hang, so just having a bit of (for example) 800-and-up will cover those spots nicely.
Maybe hiring a consultant to advise you on the difficiencies in the current rig would be prudent?
Post by: Paul Reedy on July 06, 2018, 12:40:58 AM
In the meantime, I've asked them to call the original company to come in and evaluate the system.
I took my DBX reverence mic connected to my XR12 mixer, and the response measured was flat.. don't remember the resolution it was set to. I also walked around the room, and it measured 86db on the edges and 87.5 to 88 in the center, so coverage is within 2db across the center of the arc.
I would definately take the JBL's down if you aren't using them. It looks like they don't have flyware and were jerry-rigged into place with unistrut. If they do have flyware, I bet it wasn't made to be used upside down like that.
Anyways, they need to come down. If you need coverage in those areas, just get a 2" horn and a flare to point wherever they are covering. You'll have plenty of low and mids coming off the main hang, so just having a bit of (for example) 800-and-up will cover those spots nicely.
Maybe hiring a consultant to advise you on the difficiencies in the current rig would be prudent?
Post by: Paul Reedy on August 21, 2018, 08:53:27 AM
My only concern here, and one other company did the same thing. Specing QSC amps in a rack full of Crown.
My issue is not with quality of either brand, or even brand loyalty.
My issue is the fact that Crown amps pull in air from the front to the back, and QSC is opposite.
It doesn't seem like good design... unless maybe put a shelf under the qsc that goes full length of the rack, but still. Am i wrong for thinking this? If not, how can people with years of experience miss this important detail?
Post by: Debbie Dunkley on August 21, 2018, 09:40:17 AM
Touché and point well made. That would be a much better use of the money!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I have to admit this was my first thought. I get it if the current PA is totally deficient but it doesn't sound like it is.
Post by: Tim Weaver on August 21, 2018, 12:35:37 PM
We had another company come in to evaluate. He suggested altering the chairs in the auditorium and adding some front fills on the stage using a QSC PLD4.3 amp with DSP.
My only concern here, and one other company did the same thing. Specing QSC amps in a rack full of Crown.
My issue is not with quality of either brand, or even brand loyalty.
My issue is the fact that Crown amps pull in air from the front to the back, and QSC is opposite.
It doesn't seem like good design... unless maybe put a shelf under the qsc that goes full length of the rack, but still. Am i wrong for thinking this? If not, how can people with years of experience miss this important detail?
You're not wrong, but it's often done. You likely aren't running the whole system hard enough to generate a bunch of heat anyway. Chances are it will be fine, BUT it's not "right".
Crown has some dsp amps that are reasonbly priced as well, although they are not 4 channel units. Frankly I would also question why they suggested the PLD4.3 for a Church Front Fill setup when the much cheaper PLD4.1 would be sufficient.
Post by: Simon_Barrett on August 22, 2018, 04:35:21 PM
Looking at the photos of your current rig, do those speakers really have to be so high up?
Just a thought, but I can’t see the whole auditorium so it’s not possible to tell. But I personally wouldn’t fly speakers right up as far as they could go, it’s just not cricket.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Dave Pluke on August 22, 2018, 09:06:54 PM
My issue is the fact that Crown amps pull in air from the front to the back, and QSC is opposite.
It doesn't seem like good design... unless maybe put a shelf under the qsc that goes full length of the rack, but still. Am i wrong for thinking this? If not, how can people with years of experience miss this important detail?
That is something I don't do personally, but have seen others do.
Are there back rails? Can the QSC be mounted on those (air flowing the same direction)?
Otherwise, getting some physical separation and space between units would be a compromise. Definitely not right atop each other.
Dave