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Title: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Dan Godwin on June 14, 2021, 12:45:58 PM
After two gigs this weekend that required 17+ stairs, Iím considering some lighter subs.  Iím not as young as I used to be and Iím definitely feeling it in my back.  Iíve been using 2 Yorkville LS701p which weigh in at a measly 95lbs.  Any recommendations?  Should I just hire some strapping young lads to do the grunt work?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on June 14, 2021, 01:13:01 PM
After two gigs this weekend that required 17+ stairs, Iím considering some lighter subs.  Iím not as young as I used to be and Iím definitely feeling it in my back.  Iíve been using 2 Yorkville LS701p which weigh in at a measly 95lbs.  Any recommendations?  Should I just hire some strapping young lads to do the grunt work?  Thanks!
is it just the weight that you are interested in?

Or does freq response and output SPL matter to you?  or something else?

Does it need a pole cup?  Remember that a lightweight base can easily tip over, depending on the top you have on it.  Does that matter?

Knowing the actual needs will help to get useful responses.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Dan Godwin on June 14, 2021, 01:18:19 PM
is it just the weight that you are interested in?

Or does freq response and output SPL matter to you?  or something else?

Does it need a pole cup?  Remember that a lightweight base can easily tip over, depending on the top you have on it.  Does that matter?

Knowing the actual needs will help to get useful responses.

Thanks Ivan.  I knew as soon as I posted, I shouldíve added more information. Weight is the primary reason for considering something else.  Iíd assume the Frequency response can only get better from the band pass sub Iím using now. Iíd like similar output if possible but recognize that may not be possible.  Pole cup is nice but not 100% needed. Iím currently using DSR12 for tops. Thanks!
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on June 15, 2021, 11:52:51 PM
Is that sub really as loud as the specs state? Being a bandpass I anticipate it having a giant peak like response and for that reason I have always dismissed it thinking it will be a one note wonder.

Yorkvilles PS15s is a fantastic little sub with impressive output for such a small box, I find it easy to move compared to the es18p for example, but it's only a few pounds lighter than the old ls701 so not much help there. On paper the ps15s has 5-6db less continuous output than the LS701 but if the old bandpass doesn't have a very flat response then the PS15 may actually out perform it... and sound a lot more musical.

There are 15" powered subs from all the usual brands that could be substituted but the obvious selection to pair with DSR's would be one of the DXS bandpass subs or a new XLF model.

Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Brian Jojade on June 16, 2021, 03:34:51 AM
I doubt there is much on the market that's going to offer a significant weight reduction and still give the performance needed.  A 70lb box vs a 90 lb box still is too much to drag up stairs alone at any age.  These should be 2 person loads.

Now, you might be able to save some strain by getting a stair climber dolly, but up and down more than 1 or 2 stairs, I'd insist on more people doing the job.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 16, 2021, 11:38:36 AM
You don't need a lighter sub - 20 lbs won't make a significant difference with 17 steps- you need a helper AND bill the client for that person.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on June 16, 2021, 01:38:56 PM
Being a bandpass I anticipate it having a giant peak like response and for that reason I have always dismissed it thinking it will be a one note wonder.

Bandpass designs can sound as good (or bad!) as any other. I built one a little while ago (the chosen drivers practically forced a 4th order bandpass), and it sounded great once properly integrated.

A "gotchya" is that the bandpass forms its own acoustic crossover slope at the top end, so you've got to factor that in when programming your processor. A 12dB/octave Butterworth (electrical) slope might get you a resulting 24dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley.

There are plenty of badly-designed bandpass subs, and plenty of well-designed ones being used badly.


I quite liked the 4th order bandpass for the following advantages:
- No particular need for an infrasonic filter - it would provide some output at 10Hz on account of the sealed back chamber.
- With a pair of drivers, you can set the internals up for force cancellation. Bonus points if you get the port(s) passing cool air directly over the magnets.
- Smaller than a well-aligned ported box
- Lots and lots of output, albeit not going as low as a bigger ported box.

A double-edged-sword is that the acoustic bandpass filters out most of the distortion from the drivers. The sound stays pretty clean until the drivers are seriously struggling (and likely about to fail).

Chris
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Steve-White on June 16, 2021, 02:10:12 PM
You don't need a lighter sub - 20 lbs won't make a significant difference with 17 steps- you need a helper AND bill the client for that person.
This +1.  They pay for stairs.  (period)
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Brian Jojade on June 16, 2021, 03:08:28 PM
This +1.  They pay for stairs.  (period)

And when the client complains, tell them to take it up with the venue that didn't have roll in access to their space available. Any other business has additional charges for this sort of thing. We need to be able to do exactly the same thing.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Steve-White on June 16, 2021, 06:08:53 PM
And when the client complains, tell them to take it up with the venue that didn't have roll in access to their space available. Any other business has additional charges for this sort of thing. We need to be able to do exactly the same thing.

Exactly or move his event(s) to a venue with proper access.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on June 16, 2021, 08:03:15 PM
Bandpass designs can sound as good (or bad!) as any other.

Yes of course, it's all about driver selection and how well the box design works with them. I have seen both sides of the coin with bandpass subs and it has left me with a preference for boxes with larger drivers. The worst examples I have heard were those with 8" and 10" drivers so I'm automatically skeptical of any box so equipped, but I'm also open minded enough to know that a good sounding sub could be designed with this size drivers.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Dan Godwin on June 17, 2021, 09:14:42 PM
This +1.  They pay for stairs.  (period)

I told the band that I usually charge extra for stairs.  Part of this is on me because I accepted the gigs last minute and they were at venues I haven't previously worked at and didn't have time to advance.  The LS701P handle placement makes them front-heavy and not ideal for a 2 person carry.  They do meet my needs currently, however, so I'll keep them in the inventory for now.  Thanks everyone for the lively discussion. 
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Steve-White on June 17, 2021, 11:58:44 PM
^^^ Everybody gets or has gotten caught on stairs - that goes with the territory.  :)
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on June 18, 2021, 08:49:07 AM
^^^ Everybody gets or has gotten caught on stairs - that goes with the territory.  :)

One of the questions I ask about a venue - is it ADA compliant/handicapped accessible?  If the answer is anything other than "yes", I add additional fees to the estimate to cover additional labor.  I try to advance local-ish venues in person (at least a drive-by) and if it turns out the venue doesn't have stairs, narrow doors or other obstructions, I'll not send extra help and remove the fees from the invoice.

A local hotel's ballroom had a 4-step-down access to floor level, or one had to load in through the front doors (which they really didn't like).  While 4 steps doesn't seem like a lot, moving a box truck full of gear through a pedestrian door with steps got old, fast.  IIRC I added $250 for additional labor.  The door was too narrow for our ramp, or I'd have not charged extra.  They remodeled a few years back and put in new freight doors, matched level with the interior and exterior, and it's a much, much nicer place to work.  The "Drury Fee" is still in the estimate data base but no longer used.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Steve Litcher on June 18, 2021, 10:32:59 AM
Venue quirks and bad designs aside, JTR's Captivator C212PRO sub weighs in at around 65-lbs and does a great job for nearly everything except for maybe EDM music. It'll go down to 39Hz +/-3dB and gets plenty loud. Our standard "bar room/small ballroom" rig was 2x C212PRO + 1 DSR per side, and 9x out of 10, I only needed 1x C212PRO per side. They hit harder than their weight class should.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Steve-White on June 18, 2021, 12:56:58 PM
One of the questions I ask about a venue - is it ADA compliant/handicapped accessible?  If the answer is anything other than "yes", I add additional fees to the estimate to cover additional labor.  I try to advance local-ish venues in person (at least a drive-by) and if it turns out the venue doesn't have stairs, narrow doors or other obstructions, I'll not send extra help and remove the fees from the invoice.

A local hotel's ballroom had a 4-step-down access to floor level, or one had to load in through the front doors (which they really didn't like).  While 4 steps doesn't seem like a lot, moving a box truck full of gear through a pedestrian door with steps got old, fast.  IIRC I added $250 for additional labor.  The door was too narrow for our ramp, or I'd have not charged extra.  They remodeled a few years back and put in new freight doors, matched level with the interior and exterior, and it's a much, much nicer place to work.  The "Drury Fee" is still in the estimate data base but no longer used.

If I don't know the venue, I'm big on a site survey as well.  Last one that was interesting in that area was a Gazebo Garden Wedding I did sound and lighting for.  Held in December at a city park picnic gazebo area adjacent to the athletic fields.  250+ feet from parking lot to the gazebo with a 90 degree turn in the walkway about 1/2 way.  I lit the walkway with floods in a tripod at the bend and then uplit all the surrounding oak trees and gazebo where food tables were setup.  Hung a canvas backdrop at the altar with uplighting.

I always like to know what I'm getting into ahead of time - surprises most times aren't fun - especially when there's a truckload of gear involved and clock is ticking.

What we haul is much more than just subs.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Greg Harwood on June 28, 2021, 07:12:39 PM
Yep, the JTR 212 is a great little box.  I have the powered versions and have never needed more than 2.....I have 4 but haven't needed them all yet.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Mal Brown on July 02, 2021, 08:47:52 PM
Those 212's look pretty sweet.  A how do they stack up against a pair of kw-181 ?  Yes, I know the 181 doesn't get a lot of love here but mine have given me yeoman performance over the years.  Just eq out a little flab in the very lows and - good to go.

Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Greg Harwood on July 04, 2021, 02:16:20 PM
Those 212's look pretty sweet.  A how do they stack up against a pair of kw-181 ?  Yes, I know the 181 doesn't get a lot of love here but mine have given me yep and performances over the years.  Just eq out a little flab in the very lows and - good to go.

I have never compared them to the kw subs, but did have the venerable Yorkville LS800P subs prior to the JTR 212's and its roughly a one to one swap for output, but the 212's sound a lot better and go a little lower.  I would expect the 212 to have more output than the KW-181 and also sound better.  The 212's are really nice, compact subs.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on July 18, 2021, 10:01:12 PM
I have never compared them to the kw subs, but did have the venerable Yorkville LS800P subs prior to the JTR 212's and its roughly a one to one swap for output, but the 212's sound a lot better and go a little lower.  I would expect the 212 to have more output than the KW-181 and also sound better.  The 212's are really nice, compact subs.

   This is interesting to me. I have the LS801pb's that for some reason my back is giving me grief about them... Did you have a chance to measure them with Smaart or similar? I've had the LS800's as well. Do the 212's kick as hard? That is one thing I can't seem to find in/around the LS801pb's price range but in a smaller/lighter package. Do you feel they hold up well when pushed. I've always felt the LS's are fine the few times I've had them starting to flash their clip lights.

   Thanks for any information;
   Douglas R. Allen

As a side note a friend of mine has the Orbit Shifter and the spec's and output was to the speakers factory spec sheet when measured with smaart.  ;)
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Greg Harwood on July 19, 2021, 11:55:07 AM
   This is interesting to me. I have the LS801pb's that for some reason my back is giving me grief about them... Did you have a chance to measure them with Smaart or similar? I've had the LS800's as well. Do the 212's kick as hard? That is one thing I can't seem to find in/around the LS801pb's price range but in a smaller/lighter package. Do you feel they hold up well when pushed. I've always felt the LS's are fine the few times I've had them starting to flash their clip lights.

   Thanks for any information;
   Douglas R. Allen

As a side note a friend of mine has the Orbit Shifter and the spec's and output was to the speakers factory spec sheet when measured with smaart.  ;)

Hi, Douglas.  I never compared the LS801P to the 212Pro with Smaart as I don't have access to that.  Jeff has a link to the data-base review on his website that has some really good information regarding the 212Pro (keep in mind that the output was taken at 2 meters instead of 1 meter).  I had the LS801P for several years combining them with my DSR112 tops strictly used for live band work so I was fairly familiar with their sound and capabilities.  When I began using the 212Pro with the DSR112, I felt like the subs were pretty close to having similar output as the LS801P.  Maybe not a true 1:1, but close enough for the benefits.  The sound profile is different between the two subs, with the 212Pro sounding better (to me).....tighter, cleaner (if that makes sense).  The LS801P definitely has lots of presence to its thump where the 212Pro is tighter with maybe less distortion when things get loud (though not measured).  At 71lbs, by back thanks me.  Even though the LS801P has wheels, you have to stoop a bit to roll them around which can strain the back a bit (I bet the newer ES18P would be easier to manage since it's taller).  I typically put 2 212Pros on a roller cart and have no issues moving them around.  The 212Pro size is great too.  If you stack 2 of them together, the overall footprint is about like the LS801P.....so 4 subs (2 per side) would take up about the same floor space, yet provide more bass output.  Since the 212pro is not as tall, they go great in front of stages if you like to center cluster your subs.

I wish I had more time with both subs for comparison, but I sold my 801P's and had to give them up after only a short comparison.  I can tell you for sure that I like the 212Pro subs better....easier to move around, sound great, and a lot of output for the size.  I'd say they are about 90%-95% of the LS801P 1:1, but can't back that up with data.  I'm not sure if this was helpful, but I have nothing but high praise for the 212pro.

I read a quote from Jeff in one of the 212Pro review threads (I believe on this board) where Jeff states that the 212Pro keeps up with the Orbit Shifter from 60hz up....or something along those lines.  It really is a powerful little sub.

Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: George Friedman-Jimenez on July 19, 2021, 03:27:54 PM
Has anyone used or auditioned the BassBoss BB15? Wondering how it compares with the JTR 212Pro.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Robert Lunceford on August 20, 2021, 08:34:52 PM
After two gigs this weekend that required 17+ stairs, Iím considering some lighter subs.  Iím not as young as I used to be and Iím definitely feeling it in my back.  Iíve been using 2 Yorkville LS701p which weigh in at a measly 95lbs.  Any recommendations?  Should I just hire some strapping young lads to do the grunt work?  Thanks!

K-Array KMT18 18" Active Subwoofer
35-150Hz (-6db)
133db peak
59 lbs
18.5" X 19" X 24"
https://www.k-array.com/en/product/thunder-kmt18i/

Pictured are a pair of 18" K-Array subs below a Danley SM80
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Doug Fowler on August 20, 2021, 09:05:41 PM
Has anyone used or auditioned the BassBoss BB15? Wondering how it compares with the JTR 212Pro.

2nd for looking at this model.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Mal Brown on August 22, 2021, 11:58:05 AM
I vote for strapping young lads  ;-)
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Tim Weaver on August 22, 2021, 12:46:26 PM
Years back I built a pair of single 18's just for this one band that I did a lot of work with. For some reason this band did a lot of private parties in some rich guy's backyard and I wanted lightweight subs that were very efficient.

What I ended up with was the EV TL505 boxes in non-stepped down mode. I happened to have the EVM18b's kicking around so it made sense for me then.

I built these cabs based on the TL505 but modernized to use round ports and a truck bed liner'd finish. They looked nice actually. The comprimises I made were: They were efficient but didn't play very deep. They also were built out of a single layer of 3/4" birch ply and not very heavily braced. This made them both light and "stiff enough" for the 400 watts I would be throwing at them. They ended up being around 65 pounds each and I could handle them solo fairly easy.

If I didn't have the EVM18's laying around I would look for the most efficient Neo driver I could get and do the same if this situation comes up often enough. Just use the lightweight subs on these gigs and keep the Yorkvilles for everything else.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Art Welter on August 22, 2021, 06:23:58 PM

If I didn't have the EVM18's laying around I would look for the most efficient Neo driver I could get and do the same if this situation comes up often enough. Just use the lightweight subs on these gigs and keep the Yorkvilles for everything else.
You would also want to look for drivers that have a lot more than the  EVM18B's 3.3mm Xmax.
 
Given more power, doubling displacement adds 6dB output, 15+mm Xmax is common now, and some 18" are in the 50mm range!
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Tim Weaver on August 22, 2021, 11:44:54 PM
You would also want to look for drivers that have a lot more than the  EVM18B's 3.3mm Xmax.
 
Given more power, doubling displacement adds 6dB output, 15+mm Xmax is common now, and some 18" are in the 50mm range!


For sure! If I were buying drivers there's plenty of great, lightweight drivers out there to make some decent small and fairly light subs. I had designed a dual Eminence Kappalite 3012LF that looked promising. Would have had a good amount of chooch and able to be carried in one hand.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Mal Brown on August 23, 2021, 05:39:45 PM

For sure! If I were buying drivers there's plenty of great, lightweight drivers out there to make some decent small and fairly light subs. I had designed a dual Eminence Kappalite 3012LF that looked promising. Would have had a good amount of chooch and able to be carried in one hand.

I use a pair of 3012 lf's plus a 6" alpha mid in one of my bass rigs.  That is a great driver!  I aso built a couple of small lightweight subs using braced 12mm baltic birch using 3012lf's. One is in use other another local sound co as the bottom of their drum monitor with a co-ax 12 box on top.
Title: Re: Lighter weight sub?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 24, 2021, 10:58:09 AM
I vote for strapping young lads  ;-)

So the beatings will continue?  ::)