David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38 |
Hey Shad, First things on my list would be...... 1. Move the plant in front of House left speaker. |
David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38 |
2. Adjust the config some so you can get the house right and house left speakers to be on the same plain and to have the same angle hitting the audience vs one on the floor and one shooting from up on high. |
David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38 |
Then I would see how the system performs for your needs. What are the issues you are having that have you looking at upgrades?? |
David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38 |
More 57's and 58's are always good to have around. What mics do you have now?? I've never been a fan of the colored windscreens. We use colored electrical tape when we need to color code. |
David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38 |
Looks like you have some room issues that will make life interesting too I bet. |
David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38 |
Are planning to keep the current speakers and powered mixer as part of the system?? |
David Sumrall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 19:38 |
I that helps a bit. Good luck with everything! David |
Sean LaRussa wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 20:03 |
Shad, the prices you have listed seem to be a bit high. Be a good steward and be sure to get prices from different places. You should definitely be able to get better prices on that gear (for example, I know my favorite supplier, Full Compass, carries the SM58 mics for $99 - and possibly even lower if I call my rep there and get the "church" price). Just to be clear, I do not work for Full Compass, but I have bought a LOT of gear there over the last few years (in the last year alone we had some major upgrades and spent over $80k with them) and they consistently have the best price and incredible service. You can also call them and let them know what you have now and what you want to do and they can help you decide what would be best for your situation. |
Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 20:39 | ||
Yeah, black windscreens would look better, but if the singers hand is covering up the color-coded tape system, then I have to be dead-on in knowing which person has which mic. This is not to imply laziness, because even when I worked on a 16 channel board system at a previous church, I had every single knob setting memorized just in case they got changed during the week for some reason. It simply would be better than squinting in a lowly lit room at night during a Christmas play. Personal preference maybe is all it boils down to. =) |
Thomas Lamb wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 20:20 |
Other things I would consider: Are you going to use your Mackie mixer amp as your amp? I don't believe the PA28 has an amplifier in it. What are you not happy with about your system now? David is right about getting the speakers on the same plain. What kind of cabinets are those? Some good cabinets can go a long way too! Sean is right as well the prices you have quoted can definitely be beat! Good Luck |
Dan Costello wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 21:22 | ||||
This is more of a general church-sound question and not picking on you, but is it really that big of a deal for church folks to put some masking tape on the board and label the channels "Vox L," "Vox C," "Vox R," etc or "Steve," "Joe," and "Wendy."? Everybody on the outside gets by w/o colored windscreens, why can't we? And yes, my church has them, too. But one thing at a time. -Dan. |
Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 28 July 2008 21:54 |
Now regarding the Shure SM58/a's, are windscreen even needed? |
Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 13:54 |
Big reply... ready... go! I agree, while it's probably not priority 1, I think windscreens look weird when they're all different colors and they're distracting when used in church. Plus, they attenuate the mic a little differently. As previously stated, they're also only necessary in windy outdoor conditions, or for an extremely plosive singer. 99% of those issues can be remedied by proper EQ before the need for a windscreen. |
Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 13:54 |
Getting the speakers symmetric is also another good idea. It may sound okay now, but if you can make it sound better, and look better (in my opinion), then why not do it? The plant is funny, actually. If you're going to look into new speakers, you may look into something white in addition to the smaller option you were talking about. Small and unobtrusive often "sounds quieter" to the average listener. |
Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 13:54 |
If you want, we can all give you contact info for vendors who will get you 57's and 58's for less than your original quote. Saving 33% per mic is a pretty good savings, you could get 4 mics for every three with the previous prices. Also, there really is no SM58"a" or SM75"a", the "A" on the Beta58A is noting that it is a hypercardioid microphone. If you look at the Beta87 series, the "A" model is hypercardioid, and the "C" version is regular cardioid. In the SM series of microphones, there are only cardioid versions. In a pinch, a little secret that is now more widely known than a few years ago is that the SM58 and SM57 are the same mics. Take the grill off the 58, and you have yourself a 57 without any protection. Take a look at some concert DVDs, especially Third Day's "Come Together" show, and their vocals, except for Mac Powel, are all on 57s... not a standard practice really, but apparently 8th Day Sound is doing something right if they've booked the last four Third Day tours. Lastly on this topic, there really are no other microphones in Shure's lineup that have both an "A" and "C" model beside the Beta87. If the SM58 were to have a letter, I would assume it would be "C" as it has a cardioid polar pattern. |
Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 13:54 |
The Crown xTi series are good amps. I will only "let you" buy it if you promise me you'll properly use the built-in DSP. It's not worth buying an amp with built in processing if you're not going to use it. Again, being a good steward of the oney and gear, if you buy it and don't use it properly, I will "never forgive you." If you don't think you need the DSP (which you could probably benefit from), then go another direction. But, like I just said, 99% of application could benefit from some form of DSP, so it's not a bad idea. I think you're headed in a good direction, and I'm glad we can help. Keep up the good work, and don't be afraid to ask questions. |
Quote: |
According to Shure, the SM57 uses an r57 cartridge whereas the SM58 uses an r59 cartridge. Now, maybe these cartridges are interchangeable, but wouldn't they be producing/presenting sound differently? Here are two PDF's (1MB each) with potentially beneficial information: SM57 User Guide & SM58 User Guide. They both have slightly different Polar Patterns, but I'm not sure how to read them. Can you explain to me in a few words how to read frequencies or point me to a good site? |
Quote: |
I have always found human psycology fascinating and this is a prime example that you mentioned. Will definitely keep this in mind. |
Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 18:06 | ||
You raise an interesting point. I've never looked into the actual cartridge specs for these two models, I was simply going off of what the guys at Shure (and a few great engineers I know) have said. I had a conference attendee ask what he should do aout getting his church to approve a purchase of a Beta57 instead of a Beta58 because he knew it would sound better on a guitar amp, but they wouldn't do it. In the expert panel for that session, we had a guy who was on the design team for the Beta series mics, and he told the guy to order a Beta57 grill and put it on the mic, because they're the same element. As far as the SM series, there are small differences, but what you see in the diagrams on the site is primarily due to the grill differences. I'd have to look at the specs for those two cartridges to see exactly how different the two are. |
Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 18:06 |
Fortunately it's becoming a little more mainstream and we don't get as many people telling us that we can't worship if there are drums because they're not a sacred instrument... like the piano, since the piano was obviously around during the life of Christ, and therefore is more worthy of worship music than a guitar or drums. |
David Sumrall wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 19:38 |
Hey Shad, Great stuff! Sounds like you've been looking forward to some upgrades for a while. On the console having more room to grow is definitely a good thing. Have you considered a little digital desk like a litle o1vcm or something. Not as many inputs as your plan but it would have more things built into the desk like reverb, compressors, and recall of settings etc. Only 12 mic pre's in those 16 channels. It would definitely be a step up from what you have in channel count now but might not be enough later on. Do you think a larger booth space is going to be an issue? On the snake, is 16 on the stage with 4 returns going to be enough long term?? Don't forget to plan where to locate the amp. If you put it on the stage or close then what you have could work. But if you put the amp in the booth then you would need a snake specifically for running power down it. My preference would be having the amp by the stage. |
David Sumrall wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 19:38 |
On the mics the 58's or Beta 58's with 57's should do you just fine. As others have said not a lot of need for extra winds screens on the 58's and Beta 58's inside. New mics would be a definite no mater how much money you end up getting. Don't forget to plan for more mic cable if you are adding inputs on the stage. |
David Sumrall wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 19:38 |
On the speakers, though i do love the plant, like Jeff said some smaller boxes, maybe white if you could wall mount them or hang them on the ceiling etc. Some EV Zx3's would be much smaller and have plenty of output for your little room. Maybe some nice wall mounts that could help you get the boxes up away from the people a little more on the one side and help to get a better coverage angle etc. You could come back later and add some subs if you like! Good luck! David |
David Sumrall wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 19:38 |
Do you think a larger booth space is going to be an issue? |
Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Tue, 29 July 2008 10:54 |
Also, there really is no SM58"a" or SM75"a", the "A" on the Beta58A is noting that it is a hypercardioid microphone. If you look at the Beta87 series, the "A" model is hypercardioid, and the "C" version is regular cardioid. In the SM series of microphones, there are only cardioid versions. Lastly on this topic, there really are no other microphones in Shure's lineup that have both an "A" and "C" model beside the Beta87. If the SM58 were to have a letter, I would assume it would be "C" as it has a cardioid polar pattern. |
Andy Peters wrote on Wed, 30 July 2008 02:30 | ||
Your statement about the "A" on the Beta58A is not correct. First, the SM57 and SM58 are both standard cardioid mics. Once upon a time (a dozen years ago or so), Shure introduced the original Beta series mics, including the Beta57 and the Beta58. The intent was to make supercardioid versions of the old standbys. Unfortunately, the new mics didn't sound all that great in general, and in particular the mics (whether the capsule or the transformer, I dunno) easily overloaded with even moderate-throated singers. While Shure didn't exactly admit the mics weren't any good, they were quietly discontinued. The Beta57A and Beta58A were introduced as the supercardioid versions of the old standbys. (The Beta52 kick-drum mic was also replaced by the Beta52A; that mic had its own issues.) So, no, "A" does not mean "supercardioid." It simply means "Revision A." The moniker "Beta" indicates supercardioid. Now, about the Beta87 mics. Yes, there was a supercardioid Beta87 mic as part of the original Beta series. Then with the refresh of the product line, the Beta87A was introduced. (I don't know how the Beta87 differs from the Beta87A as I've never heard one.) Now some of Shure's Market Research showed that some Beta87A users who also used IEMs thought that the pattern was too narrow and "isolating," they introduced the Beta87C, and in this case, "C" does mean "cardioid." And yes, there is a Shure SM87A. And because I told you that the "A" doesn't mean supercardioid, well, the SM87A is a supercardioid, unlike the rest of the SM line. It's basically a supercardioid version of the SM86 handheld vocal condenser. Confused yet? -a |
Kent Thompson wrote on Wed, 30 July 2008 17:29 |
David kind of touched on this but, you do realize you have a 24 channel mixer and only a 16 channel snake. If your not going to have a 24 channel snake you might as well downsize your mixer to 16 channels. |
Shad Hall |
(From post #126991 above) "There is a ProCo StageMaster 16/4 TRS snake on the stage right now, so adding another 16/4 will work just fine." |
Shad Hall wrote on Wed, 30 July 2008 13:34 |
Have you personally used the SM58 and the Beta58A? What are your thoughts on them? |
Quote: |
I'm reading every review I can find and thus far, the Beta58A's seem to be the preferred mic. |
David Sumrall wrote on Wed, 30 July 2008 00:38 |
Have you considered a little digital desk like a litle o1vcm or something. Not as many inputs as your plan but it would have more things built into the desk like reverb, compressors, and recall of settings etc. Only 12 mic pre's in those 16 channels. It would definitely be a step up from what you have in channel count now but might not be enough later on. |
Justin Rygel wrote on Wed, 30 July 2008 19:14 | ||
Th O1V96 can be easily upgraded to 28 inputs in the future, and a used V2 is not a lot more that what was already budgeted for the A+H board. A new VCM will run about $1800. If you can convince yourself and your budget comittee that this is right for your church, I strongly recommend going digital, as you will instantly have A LOT more control of your sound, with better EQ, dynamics, and effects built in to the board. If you either know how to use this stuff already or are willing to learn, you can really grow into the capabilities of an O1V96 (V2 or the current VCM), if this is not the case, then it is probably better to stick with a simpler board, like the A+H PA, or ZED series. Also look at www.northernsound.net for good prices, I usually find they tend to be a bit lower than full compass. I'm a big fan of QSC RMX amps for this type of application, they're a very good value for the money and are very reliable. Any time anyone asks about snakes and cables, I have to take the chance to plug www.audiopile.net, very good prices on decent products and excellent service. I've nevery liked Beta58s myself, I prefer Audix OM series mics (OM2, OM5, and OM7 depending on application). Of course, I always have some SM58s around . . . If you decide to upgrade speakers, consider going powered, you'll end up with a simpler, easier to use system. I've been pretty impressed with the QSC HPR122i. It looks like two would cover your room. They are black, look very nice, and they are pole mountable, so you could put the one on the left side of the room on a pole and get it up higher. Getting the speakers up above people's heads helps to even the coverage from front to back. For that matter, you might be able to do that with your current speakers. You say the speakers you have sound good, but what is your point of reference? I am not saying that the sound is bad, I've never heard it, just that it is possible your room could sound much better. You might be able to rent some nicer speakers to test this hypothesis, or go to another local church and see what their building sounds like. |
Quote: |
If we're going to be bringing in the state-of-the-art system, then we might as well be talking $7k area and then should redo the entire interior design, knock out a wall behind the sound booth and extend the room. Now, let me quickly say, I agree $7k is chump-change for church sound systems in many cases, but 7 becomes 10 which becomes 15 and with tax $20k for the additional room. I was trying to keep everything around $3k range give-or-take $500. I am not bent on this figure, but am trying to stay near it if I hope to have success with my proposal. I book-marked the sites you mentioned. You suggested using powered speakers and how it would be "simpler"; can you explain how it would simplify things? Thanks again for the reply, Shad |
Quote: |
So new mic cables are a must? Suggest a brand, but more importantly, a model. I know that Monster Cables are popular, but there are many different models and thus also pricing scenarios. |
Gary Creely wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 16:13 | ||
The 7k area would not be state of the art, it would be an economy job. In a room that size state of the art might be 80k. You do not need state of the art, but realize you are trying to feed the multitude on one boys lunch. A single JBL VP speaker would cost 3k. I only say that to say 7k is no pie in the sky number. I have found volunteer/lay people are reluctant to ask for what they need when it comes to sound system needs. I would suggest putting together what it would take to do this right, and dream a little- if they say no than ask what the church can afford. Don't under estimate the possibilities. As mentioned before you are a little high on the prices (good choice of snake), but you missed a lot of odds and ends that add up. -For instance mic cables. I will answer you question about powered speakers- They are simpler because the are far more plug and play, and can get away better with-out processing. |
slammin sam wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 17:23 |
Don't go with Monster. Overpriced (at least from what I've heard- often). Regarding SM58 vs. SM57, I just ran into this article yesterday from Shure: http://www.shurenotes.com/how28/article.htm where shure engineers say: What’s the real difference between an SM57 and an SM58? There are actually a fair number of myths and misconceptions about what the difference really is. The basic difference is the grille. The other parts -- the diaphragm and voice coil combination, the magnet, the transformer that’s in the handle, the handle itself, the closing ring that surrounds the cartridge – are identical. (see article for add'l comments). I know earlier posters have already indicated as much, but thought, as long as I just read the article, I might as well pass it along to confirm... |
Quote: |
(Quote from this article on Shure's web site. ) That brings up another question that comes up all the time. What’s the real difference between an SM57 and an SM58? There are actually a fair number of myths and misconceptions about what the difference really is. The basic difference is the grille. The other parts -- the diaphragm and voice coil combination, the magnet, the transformer that’s in the handle, the handle itself, the closing ring that surrounds the cartridge – are identical. In the SM58, the ball grille with the foam lining provides an extra degree of pop protection and wind protection. The SM57 has a much more compact grille arrangement that doesn’t provide nearly as much protection against blast or wind. The SM57 is often used as a drum mic - on snare drums or tom toms for instance - or an instrument mic for guitar amps. Particularly around drum kits, the smaller head of the 57 allows it to fit in among the drums and other hardware that make it difficult to get a larger mic in the right position. The smaller size lends itself to getting it into the right place, where the SM58 might interfere. From a sound quality standpoint, you wouldn’t expect much of a difference, but you don’t need the blast filter capability of the 58 for instrument miking, since you don’t have blasts of air coming off the drum heads or the guitar amps. It’s more of a size and compactness issue that gives it a nod in that application. |
Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 20:38 |
The digital mixer board you mentioned is a discontinued item? I really do not having any firm base/theory as why I should or should not go digital. I could throw out some ideas, but I know nothing of the digital world when it comes to mixer boards. I would like to get some more feed back on this topic from others as well. I could say, our room is small or we have a small crowd of max 100 people, but neither one of those points necessarily have any weight over going digital or not. I would love to have more control over individual voices, which probably is possible with the digital mixer. I realize that I'm just rambling here, but it will at least give you an idea of where we are. If we're going to be bringing in the state-of-the-art system, then we might as well be talking $7k area and then should redo the entire interior design, knock out a wall behind the sound booth and extend the room. Now, let me quickly say, I agree $7k is chump-change for church sound systems in many cases, but 7 becomes 10 which becomes 15 and with tax $20k for the additional room. I was trying to keep everything around $3k range give-or-take $500. I am not bent on this figure, but am trying to stay near it if I hope to have success with my proposal. I book-marked the sites you mentioned. You suggested using powered speakers and how it would be "simpler"; can you explain how it would simplify things? Thanks again for the reply, Shad |
Justin Rygel wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 21:29 |
As someone else said, good powered speakers usually include properly sized amplifiers and properly applied processing. Both of these things (especially processing) usually require a bit of knowledge to get right, so if there is a powered speaker available that will work for you (from looking at your pictures, there is), it will probably sound better than a passive speaker system, unless you bring in someone more knowledgable to set up the passive system. I've never been impressed with Community's lower end offerings, and if DnD monitors sound good to your ears, you probably could get an improvement with any number of mid-range speakers: QSC HPR series, JBL MRX or PRX, Yorkville NX, EP, or Unity series, EAW FR series. If you don't need a lot of volume (and it sounds/looks like you don't), I've even been pretty happy with Community CPL46s. |
Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:15 |
Now, I'm heading back to their web site to search for an article comparing the SM58 to the Beta58A. |
Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 21:17 |
Hi, Okay, first of all, regarding microphones, there have been much input and many suggestions, so I've created a poll, narrow though it may be, for your input as to which mic would be the best all around mic for us. |
Shad Hall wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 03:44 |
It seems everyone is strongly suggesting that new powered speakers be purchased with the new sound system. Tell me if I'm right; I'm guessing that buying a new system without new speakers (in our situation) is like buying a new car and then putting the old tires on it, yes? If that's the case, then I agree with you that everything should be bought at once. |
Quote: |
Regarding speaker mounts, tripods seem to be popular, but as you can see, we are working with limited space. I don't want to hang them, because they could get in the way with the flat screen TV's (a thread on this is over on the H.O.W. A/V forums). I like the idea of mounting them on the side walls, but wonder about sound traveling the walls throughout the building. Thoughts? |
Andy Peters wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 03:02 | ||
I admire your initiative about doing your own research! And the short answer is that the SM58 is a cardioid and the Beta58A is a supercardioid. -a |
Arnold B. Krueger wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 08:43 | ||
Something may be broken. I tried to vote, got bounced to a page that said the page I wanted wasn't there, and now I see my vote didn't count. At any rate, I've tried a fair number of of mics. When I inherited this system it had 5 SM57s with external pop filters, period. I think we have about 30 mics right now. I think the most generally useful mics we have are the Audix OM5s and OM6s.I've used them for both vocalists and instruments. They are both hypercardioids and are lifesavers in situations where feedback, or picking up spill from other sources can be a problem. I find that while they have a shaped response, they don't have the sort of peaks and harshness or false crispness you find with other popular mics. The OM6 is a bit smoother, a bit more extended on the bottom, and has a bit broader pickup pattern. We've been converting our vocalists over to Countryman E6s, which almost everybody seems to like, both on stage and in the congregation. Our two holdouts are the senior pastor and one older vocalist who likes to modulate her voice with her microphone. I think the E6 would be a good choice for a preaching pastor because unlike lavs, it is far less likely to be affected by gesturing and walking around. I've worked with preachers who should be permanently banned from using a lav, because they create so much noise with their gestures, etc. |
Justin Rygel wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 12:00 | ||
This is a sticky subject and very few people here will recommend doing this without professional assistance by a structural engineer. I am a structural engineer, although not in the entertainment industry, and I wholeheartedly agree. If anything you have hanging from the walls or ceilings falls down and hurts someone (speakers are heavy), the church would be liable if you hung the speakers up yourselves. If you have a professional install/rigging company do it, they would be liable, and they are insured against such things. That being said, you might want to plan your purchases with this in mind. First of all, I wouldn't worry about sound traveling through the walls via the mount. Second, some speakers have mounting points built in and are designed to be hung, and some don't. Of the speakers discussed so far, only the QSC HPR series have mounting points. In addition, the HP122i has a conical distribution, so it doesn't make any difference if you mount in vertically or horizontally, so you could put a pair of these up horizontally hung from the ceiling, and they might be clear of the sightlines. In any case, you might want to think about trying to get speakers that have mounting points so that you could hire someone to hang them in the future without having to buy new speakers again. Having the speakers up higher makes a huge difference in getting the sound even across the entire audience. |
Shad Hall wrote on Fri, 01 August 2008 13:45 | ||||
Thanks. If a cardioid and a supercardioid are simply grills affecting wave length flow, then I'm guessing that a "hypercardioid" and "supercardioid" are one in the same, yes? |
Shad Hall wrote on Thu, 31 July 2008 15:58 |
Mixer: I think the A&H PA28 is a great model selection for us and what we're trying to do. One of the great features about it, unlike its Yamaha (analog) competitor, is that IF a channel goes bad, only it has to be sent in rather than the entire board. I can't imagine shipping costs for the Yamaha board! *gasp* |
Brad Weber wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:58 |
Shad, Microphones and speakers are both very dependent upon the specific application. What is a great choice for one situation may be a poor choice in another. For example, if your pastor likes to move the mic around a lot, talking at different orientations to it, etc., then an omni pattern might be beneficial. If you have a mic right in front of a stage monitor then a cardioid pattern might work better. And different mics may work better with different vocalists. But I don't think you have really defined how the mics will be used. |
Brad Weber wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:58 |
For speakers characteristics such as the response, pattern and output may be the main considerations and I don't think those have even been mentioned. The kind of levels you run during services, what instruments run through the system and so on are also factors that I do not think have been addressed. I will differ from some of the others and say that this is likely a poor application for powered speakers since it is an installed system in an existing space and powered speakers would require getting power and new cabling to where the speakers are located. |
Brad Weber wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:58 |
I'm not sure where monitors entered the picture but I had been wondering why you need returns on the snake. And speaking of the snake, how do you plan on running it from the stage to the mix position, why the 150' length and will having all the stage connectivity at one point work well for you (or will it end up with cables all over the stage and people tripping over them)? There seems to keep being additional bits of information added but little discussion of what you do and your plans, which operantly include some fairly major changes to the room in the near future. |
Brad Weber wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 10:58 |
In fact, the discussion so far seems to have focused much more on specific individual products. It might make more sense to first define your vision, expectations, desires, etc. and what you are trying to do. From that information you can develop what the system needs to do to support that vision, including future growth. Once you have that in place you can then start looking at the individual products that fit the system concept defined. Starting with addressing products rather than the application is typically the tail wagging the dog. For example, you might find that some acoustical treatments might be beneficial rather than trying to work around the room. And discussing new speakers seems moot when we don't know your goals and new speakers appear to be well outside your budget. Meanwhile, you may have some practical issues such as where to house a new amplifier and how to run the snakes to the stage to address that will use up more of your limited budget than you expected. |
Dan Costello wrote on Sat, 02 August 2008 16:33 | ||
You sure about that? Generally, you don't get individual, replaceable channel modules until you spend around $30K+ for the console. There are some pictures in the PA28 manual that make it look like the electronics aren't all printed on the same circuit board, so maybe you could pull parts from the channel (e.g. the EQ section or pre-amp), but I'm certain it won't come out as one solid unit. I'd double check that before banking on it as a "feature." -Dan. |
Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 13:59 |
* This past Friday, I was down at the church and for the fun of it, I took 4 vocal mics and mic'd the konga set (2 x bongos; 2 x kongas) and set the levels and rocked out. It sounds much better mic'd than simply acoustic and not just because of volume reasons. So in that list, I count 10-12 channels. If/once a trap set is added, another 8-10 channels will be absorbed. |
Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 13:59 |
I have heard that bass guitars should not be run directly into mixer boards; is this true? I know a lot of musicians want control over their own bass amps, but can't they use their amp as a monitor and pass the control onto the mixer? Suggestions? |
Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 13:59 |
A local music store here, mailed us an advertisement this past week offering to come out, assess our situation and suggest what we need and all of that for free. Now, that's good and all, but now we're down to one person's opinion, which is the MAIN reason I joined these forums, so that I could get multiple angles of input and make a better decision in the end. So unless you all encourage me another way, I think I will keep talking about all of this with you all until I feel that I have all of the needed knowledge and then call them and have them come out. This way, I will be able to discuss the issue intelligently with them, which will be better for all involved. |
Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 16:16 | ||||
Interesting that you should bring this up, because this was one of the main reasons for choosing this board. However, to clear up this issue, I just sent A&H an eMail inquiring about it. Will get back to this once they reply. Shad |
Quote: |
Shad, ALL of our boards have this feature. Also go to our website and check out the new ZED mixer line for Live sound! Very cool. Michael Palmer Allen & Heath National Sales Manager American Music And Sound |
Shad Hall wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 18:17 | ||||||||
Allen & Heath's reply:
|
Dan Costello wrote on Mon, 04 August 2008 21:06 | ||||||||||
Ok, cool. I found some better pictures, too, which clear things up a bit. I guess it's easier than I thought. Inside of a MixWiz:[removed] -Dan. |
Quote: |
Shad, All Allen & Heath console are built with individual channel PCBs (input and output) that may be removed singularly as needed. Access to most of these PCBs is through the bottom of Allen & Heath consoles by simply removing the bottom. In the case of the PA series, the top comes off, which the user guide illustrates on page 34 of publication AP4956, and the PCBs are removed by removing the pot knobs, the nuts which fasten the pots to the face of the chassis (7/16") and the fader screws (Torx T10) of the channel or channels that needs to be removed only. Then the PCB pulls out thought the bottom of the top part of the chassis. All PCBs on all Allen & Heath consoles are removed in this manner. Also there are a couple of ribbon cables that must be unplugged plus a ground buss bar that is screwed into all PCBs which must be unscrewed. There is no soldering involved on any of the newer units. Some of the older Allen & Heath consoles have a solid ground buss wire that is soldered to each PCB that must be cut then resoldered, but the PA series and all new consoles built in the past 3 years are the screw on type of ground buss. It is a very good method and makes repair of these units very easy. While it is possible to repair individual PCBs, it is usually more cost effective to purchase new PCBs as they are generally less than or right at the cost of the repair as repair costs are $75.00 per hour plus parts. There is no flat rate for repairs. In the case of the PA-28, retail for replacement channel PCBs is $88.36. I hope this answers your questions. If I can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact me again. Cheers, David David Mitchell Service Technician American Music and Sound PH.#(866) 474-7711 |
Quote: |
The snake goes through the floor, under the building and back up through the floor at the sound booth. Luckily Northern California is dry. |
Kent Thompson wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 17:37 | ||
Are there no rats in California? |
Quote: |
The snake goes through the floor, under the building and back up through the floor at the sound booth. Luckily Northern California is dry. |
IME they are generally pretty well fed, and thus not motivated to chew on vinyl.
Quote:
Good point, but ironically, the church property has never had any problem with them. When the day comes that I have to crawl under there for the new installation, I will check it out, but the current stage snake has been under there for more than 10 years and still works fine.
The absence of problems over 10 years probably means something.
Laying some PVC sewer pipe for a cables way be a good idea, down the road.
Quote: |
I can't imagine shipping costs for the Yamaha board! *gasp* |
Quote: |
The snake goes through the floor, under the building and back up through the floor at the sound booth. Luckily Northern California is dry. |
Quote: | ||
IME they are generally pretty well fed, and thus not motivated to chew on vinyl.
The absence of problems over 10 years probably means something. Laying some PVC sewer pipe for a cables way be a good idea, down the road. |
Jeff Ekstrand wrote on Thu, 07 August 2008 15:32 | ||
I've got a client who had a freak lightning accident with their M7CL, and one of the Willow Creek regional had a problem with their board freaking-out. In both instances, Yamaha sent a local guy (actually a buddy of mine in one case), and upon his diagnosis, just sent a replacement console until the broken one was fixed. Now, those were both under warranty, but they're the only two out of dozens of Yami-Digi installs that I've done that have had problems. |
Kent Thompson wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 13:07 |
Wow analog vs digital well wont touch that but, to answer will the analog work. Well it may work but, you may limit yourself if you have purchased a smaller mixer. Channel count needs can jump dramatically when you start adding people to your praise team. You have to consider that at the start if you want an analog board to handle it. In other words buy a mixer with more channels than you need knowing that you may not use them now but later on you may. This has a domino effect because, you will need a snake that will also handle that channel count. If you don't plan on this now then when it happens. You will have to buy a new mixer and a new snake. If the larger worship team is very long term it may not be an issue. A lot of people may not have this luxury(which I totally understand) but my preference is to see at least a half dozen unused channels on the board for things like guest performers and channel failures(we happen to use an older Mackie mixer that started giving us problems recently) etc. If you don't have the extra channels then you will be doing a lot of cable runs during the service to set up for guest performers and the such. |
Shad Hall |
To make things simple, let's start over and go about this in a more efficient manner. Currently, we have 3 musicians (aside from sound man); worship leader who plays guitar, two backup singers. However, things are changing and a new group is on their way, but this is what you have to take in faith, because we are believing and praying fervently for this to come to fruition. So since we don't have definite musical positions to fill/consider for this thread, this is what I'm projecting and also leaving room for growth in the future of course. Lead vocal (Audio-Technica - Omnidirectional Condenser Headworn Microphone Currently using this or similar model; not sure of exact model humber.) 3 x backup singers 2 x guitars (1 is wireless pack by Audio-Technica) 1 x bass guitar 1 x electric piano (stereo) 1 x mic'd konga set (4 mics?)* * This past Friday, I was down at the church and for the fun of it, I took 4 vocal mics and mic'd the konga set (2 x bongos; 2 x kongas) and set the levels and rocked out. It sounds much better mic'd than simply acoustic and not just because of volume reasons. So in that list, I count 10-12 channels. If/once a trap set is added, another 8-10 channels will be absorbed. |
Kent Thompson wrote on Tue, 05 August 2008 17:37 | ||
Are there no rats in California? |
Doug Bishop wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 15:18 |
Are you referring to the Beta57A and Beta58A mics? Shure doesn't show an SM58A or SM57A on their site. The beta's are a supercardoid mics and probably more than you really need considering the pics you have posted of your facility. I would stick with the tried and true work horses onf the industry...SM58 for vocals and SM57 for instruments or amp cabinets that need to be mic'd. There is a reason that these two have been around for so long and are still preferred by many professionals. BTW...in case there is any thought of buying the switched models....don't! You never want to give your people on stage the ability to cut themselves off....and turn the congregation's heads towards you. Best to you The Other Doug |
Doug Bishop wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 15:33 |
While you're at it....pick up a large spool of mic cable and some quality solder type switchcraft XLR connectors and build your own mic cables. Be sure to test them with an ohm meter both for a good connection and to be sure that you don't have a short. I'm having so much fun making cables at our church I just hunt for places that need an upgrade. Pre-made cables are never the right length and often come with non-soldered spade terminations inside the connector. |
Doug Bishop wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 16:17 |
We just added a set of 4 congas and experimented with different mic techniques. what seems to work best is to use 2 short booms and a pair of SM57's. One almost touching the floor pointing straight up between the two tall congas and the other similarly placed for the smaller ones...except not on the floor of course. The 57's don't pick up a lot of other stage noise and we get very good control of the levels. Save yourself a couple of valuable channels. |
Jason Ellis wrote on Thu, 14 August 2008 17:46 |
Just go to http://www.audiopile.net - they have got cables (I often make my own as well) - but theirs are quite acceptable, and the guitar cables are so inexpensive that have a few walk off isn't too bad... I usually source my Shure mics through http://www.northernsound.net - good pricing for mics... FYI no affiliation with either of the above - just a happy customer...be more than happy to share my tape and battery sources as well... |
Shad Hall wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 02:41 |
Awesome...bookmarked the links. Okay, on the Audiopile page for XLR cord ends, how do I determine best quality? I am curious enough to want to know more than simply buying the most expensive, because I want to know why it costs more. |
Kent Thompson wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 12:49 |
We use a single beta 98D/S on congas which has excellent rejection. It clamps right onto the rack or conga rim and has a little goose neck. It picks them up very well. It is more money than a 57 and is a condenser needing Phantom power but, I only use one of them. It doesn't require a microphone stand so stage clutter is reduced too. I like the minimalist approach this option gives me. One less microphone to pick up stage noise. Anyways back to the channel count discussion. We have a good sized praise team(bigger than most probably) drums, grand piano(not used much now thanks be to God),Keyboard,percussionist,3 horn players,up to 4 guitarists,bass,choir and 2 lead singers,2 microphones for the pastor(hand held and wireless). We suck up 36 channels on our board with this. Not saying you can't do it with 26 but, the channels do go fast so make sure you have enough. |
Mike Galica wrote on Sat, 16 August 2008 00:29 |
When it comes to a Spectral Analyzer, RTA, FFT unit or any such other frequency vs amplitude related thing, they're awesome when in the right hands and horribly frightening when in the wrong hands. I'm being purposefully vague but hopefully not so much so that my point is missed. |
Shad Hall wrote on Fri, 15 August 2008 18:41 |
Now, are these Spectral Analyzers professional-use only equipment that require a PH.D. to operate or can the be rented/purchased? Secondly, if someone/store was to come in and set up all of the new equipment, would they tune that as well? |
Shad Hall wrote on Wed, 20 August 2008 14:48 |
=========================== 1. Mixer Board: $1299 Allen & Heath PA28 http://www.guitarcenter.com/Allen---Heath-PA28-Mixer-634045- i1153548.gc |
Quote: |
2. Cable Snake: $499 (currently utilizing a ProCo 100' 12/4) Horizon Concert Series 100' 16-Channel/4-Return Snake http://www.guitarcenter.com/Horizon-Concert-Series-150--16-C hannel-4-Return-Stage-Snake-336678-i1129160.gc |
Quote: |
3. Power Amp: $499/ea (house speakers x2, stage monitors x2; 4 speakers total) Crown XTi 1000 http://www.guitarcenter.com/Crown-XTi-1000-Power-Amplifier-1 03635561-i1145684.gc |
Quote: |
4. Equalizer: ??? http://www.guitarcenter.com/Search/Default.aspx?src=equalize r&Search.x=0&Search.y=0&Search=Go (P.s. I found this Mackie Quad EQ, which has 4 channels, so we could run the two house speakers plus two stage monitors. It also comes with a mic for setting issues.) |
Quote: |
5. Speakers: $899/ea (planning 2(two) for house speakers) QSC HPR122i http://www.guitarcenter.com/QSC-HPR122i-12--2-Way-Powered-Mu ltipurpose-Loudspeaker-104157565-i1171467.gc?source=4LQSWXX1 |
Quote: |
6. Speaker cables: ?? Balanced female XLR connectors on speakers. (Couldn't find any speaker cables with XLR connectors.) |
Quote: |
7. Shure SM58: $99 http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shure-Beta-58A-Mic-100059222-i11 26428.gc |
Quote: |
8. Shure SM57: $99 http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shure-Beta-57A-Microphone-100106 076-i1126429.gc |
Quote: |
9. Mic Cables: $15 30'EWI SLMN http://www.audiopile.net/products/Mic_Instr_Cables/SLMA/SLMN /SLMN_cutsheet.asp |
Aaron McQueen wrote on Thu, 21 August 2008 19:07 |
Here are my thoughts: "...[i truncated this for length reasons]" |
Mike Galica wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 11:18 |
Since Aaron mentioned the Senn 835s, you may want to take a look at the Audix i5 instead of the SM57. I'm a pretty big fan of them, and IIRC they're about the same price. http://www.audixusa.com/docs/products/i-5.shtml Take it for what it's worth; I'm just presenting alternatives. The SM57 is a solid mic. |
Shad Hall wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 12:01 |
What is "IIRC"? Thanks, Shad |
David Sumrall wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 18:02 |
Wireless mics- for rf purposes is best to use systems from the same brand vs mixing things up. It is much easier to plan and coordinate rf using the same brand and you can have more channels overall. Wireless is also a good place to plan for flexibility, for example if you have a wireless pack you could use that for a headset, lav, acoustic guitar, trumpet, violin etc etc. David |
Mike Galica wrote on Fri, 22 August 2008 12:58 |
I think the only reason to have the all the same brand of mics on stage is if that brand gave them to you. |