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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Mark Wilkinson on April 15, 2015, 04:27:49 PM
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Trying to help a friend who has a dinner cruise boat, and wants to improve their sound if possible given their budget...... only $1000 to spend on gear.
They play background music, their own, and allow guests to plug in ipods, etc.
They use two mics with a tiny mixer (manually running back to a small control room to mute music)
She currently has a hodgepodge of home gear and different assorted speakers placed haphazardly, ...... sound is VERY uneven.
She desperately needs ducking, and better speaker coverage.
The boat has 2 decks, each with about 20x40 feet of passenger space.
The bottom deck is enclosed with dinner seating for up to 64. There is a bar at the end with a mic the hostess uses for announcements.
The top deck is open, and allows standing passengers. The captain has a mic in his pilot house, and provides sightseeing talk.
There are four 12 gauge speaker runs going from a small control room on the bottom deck. A run goes to each end of the bottom deck, and same thing for top deck.
So I'm thinking 4 outdoor speakers up in the corners of each deck.
Each deck a zone, everything mono.
Two channel amp, one channel for each deck.
Each deck end with speakers in series.... so 2- 8 ohm boxes giving a 16 ohm load to minimize wiring loss.... and then parallel the two deck ends back to an 8 ohm load.
8 speakers all the same, at about $100 per pair...
Where I could really use help...is first, does my speaker thinking make sense (given the tiny budget) ?
If it does, any speaker recommendations...?
And I could use help finding a 2 mic ducking mixer, that ducks two zones from both mics. A little EQ would be great...captain gruff voice vs high pitch hostess...
And I need to get ipods etc summed to mono.
I figure i can find an amp easy enough, but if anyone has one in mind given the chosen speakers, yea!
What little pricing i've done makes me think $1000 will work...$400 or so for speakers, leaving about $600 for mixer and amp...??
Thank you for any advice or recommendations. Mark
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Is she OK with her BMI/ASCAP licensing? No use spending money and then get busted for the licensing fee...
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Presuming they'll be playing original music only... ::)
I've done more than a few boats like this. Generally the budget is considerably higher, but I generally spec out 70V speakers (Atlas EZ-FD series in ceiling tiles and JBL control outside) and individual zone controls (Atlas AT-10 or AT-35). More speakers will allow for lower over all levels and better coverage, rather than beating up some tables so that others can hear. And 70V is much easier to manage than 8 ohm when doing this kind of installation.
I almost always use a Bogen GS series amp, because it has all the bells and whistles you inquired about. Mics range from PTT for Cap'n and Hostess to wired jacks or wireless if needed. I've always used the GS-250 for redundancy among the fleet, but you may be okay with something smaller.
In the past I've put in anything from CD players with iPod and card readers in them to computers with sound board programs for tours that play over and duck background music. Usually there is a simple 3.5mm TRS jack for use by passengers when needed. This keeps the wear off of the installed equipment, but doesn't allow for charging of the device. I try to install that jack close enough to an outlet so they can use their own charger.
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+1,, use more small speakers, wire it mono, and use 70v-100v constant voltage to reduce wire losses.
JR
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I get that you're trying to help a friend, but I think you're doing them more of a disservice than anything by wasting $1000 on speakers and amp that are less than ideal for the job. And I mean that in the most constructive way possible.
Spoken word has a very high crest factor, sometimes as high as 20db depending on the speaker. You'll need a compressor on the mic to control this. Otherwise you'll have a really quiet speaker who can't be heard and a really loud speaker who is clipping the amp.
You're also going to need an EQ to control feedback.
Can it be done for $1000? Sure. Can it be done properly? Well I guess that depends on your expectations.
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Thanks everyone,
Dick, is BMI/ASCAP something you routinely bring up with clients? Just curious...
Lee (and John), great info, much appreciated. I had been thinking about 70v when considering 6 (or more) speakers per deck. I guess I knew this is the way to go all along, kinda wishfully dreaming that 4 speakers in the corners could work. Wires are easy to get there....I know how regular amps work ....etc...
But more speakers, and 70v it is!
Been studying the Bogen GS series manual. I thought i was on to a $ saver with the yorkville CA1, but I read reliability issues abound. Back to Bogen.....
Eight of the atlas fd72w would work great on bottom deck.
I really need to find speakers for less than the JBL controls for the top.
And Scott, thank you for the straight up comments.
Yes, I am trying to help a friend....a lot of free time and thought is going into this...
And I do realize it won't be of help to have them spend what little money they have, and come up disappointingly short.
That's why i came to the forum for help....to find the minimum $ solution that honestly works...
It doesn't have to be great sound...it just needs to be pleasant, even, background music, with either switched or automatic voice-over that's reasonably intelligible. You should hear what they've been getting by with !!! :'(
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There are less expensive options for the JBLs, but be wary of trying to save too much here. You're dealing both engine and wind noise to varying degrees as well as direct sunlight and elements pretty much 24/7. Overcoming background noise levels at their worst, will take a pretty good speaker to start with. Where are you located?
By the way, 12ga speaker wire is probably overkill for a 70V system in a small space like this. I'd say 16ga is fine, others might go as small as 18ga. Either will be a lot easier to pull and manage.
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There are less expensive options for the JBLs, but be wary of trying to save too much here. You're dealing both engine and wind noise to varying degrees as well as direct sunlight and elements pretty much 24/7. Overcoming background noise levels at their worst, will take a pretty good speaker to start with. Where are you located?
By the way, 12ga speaker wire is probably overkill for a 70V system in a small space like this. I'd say 16ga is fine, others might go as small as 18ga. Either will be a lot easier to pull and manage.
Thanks Lee,
They have nice length-of-boat 12 ga runs in place. It will be fairly easy to tap 16-18 ga off to the speakers.
How many side mount speakers for the 20x40 upper deck do you think? I'm hoping 6 ?, 4 corners and 2 mid deck? Any particular JBL Control recommendation?
We're in Virginia
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Thanks everyone,
Dick, is BMI/ASCAP something you routinely bring up with clients? Just curious...
Lee (and John), great info, much appreciated. I had been thinking about 70v when considering 6 (or more) speakers per deck. I guess I knew this is the way to go all along, kinda wishfully dreaming that 4 speakers in the corners could work. Wires are easy to get there....I know how regular amps work ....etc...
But more speakers, and 70v it is!
Been studying the Bogen GS series manual. I thought i was on to a $ saver with the yorkville CA1, but I read reliability issues abound. Back to Bogen.....
Eight of the atlas fd72w would work great on bottom deck.
I really need to find speakers for less than the JBL controls for the top.
And Scott, thank you for the straight up comments.
Yes, I am trying to help a friend....a lot of free time and thought is going into this...
And I do realize it won't be of help to have them spend what little money they have, and come up disappointingly short.
That's why i came to the forum for help....to find the minimum $ solution that honestly works...
It doesn't have to be great sound...it just needs to be pleasant, even, background music, with either switched or automatic voice-over that's reasonably intelligible. You should hear what they've been getting by with !!! :'(
Yes. They should be aware that any business or public space using playback or performance of copyrighted material is subject to licensing through BMI/ASCAP.
Whether they choose to do it right from the beginning or cowboy it until they get caught makes no difference to me personally, but as an installer I would be remiss in not informing them of the issue.
It's an ethics thang...
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Yes. They should be aware that any business or public space using playback or performance of copyrighted material is subject to licensing through BMI/ASCAP.
Whether they choose to do it right from the beginning or cowboy it until they get caught makes no difference to me personally, but as an installer I would be remiss in not informing them of the issue.
It's an ethics thang...
Not sure how it works down there. This is for Canada.
If you use Sirius for music playback in public spaces, they take care of all licensing fees. We went with them a few years ago and we're saving a boatload (pardon the pun) of money.
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They have nice length-of-boat 12 ga runs in place. It will be fairly easy to tap 16-18 ga off to the speakers.
Remember that you're going to want to be able to control the levels inside and out separately. Inside things will be consistent while outside vary greatly. The AT-XX (XX= choose wattage needed) Atlas 70V volume controls are good for this.
How many side mount speakers for the 20x40 upper deck do you think? I'm hoping 6 ?, 4 corners and 2 mid deck? Any particular JBL Control recommendation?
I'd have to see a design to make any recommendations. The largest fleet I've worked with had a space on either side of the wheel house you walk to the front of and we decided that these spaces weren't not a priority and left them to what over spill over they would get from the main area of the upper deck, which would make your listening area smaller. Depending on a lot of things, it was usually a 25T or a 28T
Added: And Dick is right. I didn't mean to make light of it before but you should bring up the licensing thing so that they are at least aware. I'm bringing this up with a would be client who is about take their listening area from a fairly large bar to a fairly large bar with a large outdoor area, effectively doubling or tripling their FOC and making them an even bigger target. And John is partially right: If you have a commercial Sirius subscription (not a standard home subscription), licensing may be included with their content, but not with your iPod, a band or terrestrial radio or any other source.
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Not sure how it works down there. This is for Canada.
If you use Sirius for music playback in public spaces, they take care of all licensing fees. We went with them a few years ago and we're saving a boatload (pardon the pun) of money.
From the OP:
"They play background music, their own, and allow guests to plug in ipods, etc. "
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Not sure how it works down there. This is for Canada.
If you use Sirius for music playback in public spaces, they take care of all licensing fees. We went with them a few years ago and we're saving a boatload (pardon the pun) of money.
And you're paying them for this service, right? They've sold the service (access to the music) with this in mind, and they manage all of the license fees for you. Pretty smooth, and quite a few services offer this.
What Dick mentions is that if they're playing their own music (store bought CDs, iTunes Store purchases, etc) these are all licensed for personal use, NOT for business purposes. Background music or not, the fact is that the music is a key part of the experience that they are in business to deliver, and needs to be licensed appropriately.
IWhether they choose to do it right from the beginning or cowboy it until they get caught makes no difference to me personally, but as an installer I would be remiss in not informing them of the issue.
It's an ethics thang...
I'm the same way with Sales Tax. When I consummate an eBay Sale, and I collect sales tax based on their state-- well, I can only collect one rate for an entire state (eBay limitation). I set the rate to the lowest possible, so I am never overcharging anyone. I am most likely undercharging based on someone's location, but I don't have a way to go and verify that, and I have verbiage on my listings that state that the customer remains liable in full for any applicable state sales tax up to the full amount required, regardless of whether or not I collected enough.
Whether they remit that correct amount to their state or not is not my concern; I am just doing my professionally responsible thing in letting them know they ARE liable for state sales tax.
-Ray
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Yes. They should be aware that any business or public space using playback or performance of copyrighted material is subject to licensing through BMI/ASCAP.
Whether they choose to do it right from the beginning or cowboy it until they get caught makes no difference to me personally, but as an installer I would be remiss in not informing them of the issue.
It's an ethics thang...
I brought it up.....she says yes, they have been playing, or should i say paying, by the book...
Doesn't surprise me, they are good folks sincerely trying to meet a whole boatload :) of regulations...
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From the OP:
"They play background music, their own, and allow guests to plug in ipods, etc. "
I got that. Just wanted to throw that in to see if Sirius offered the same service down there. We went from paying 3 grand a year (which was going up to 5 grand) down to 70 dollars a month. I was quite sceptical at first and called the organizations we were paying. They confirmed that this was true.
And we have a much better music service.
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Lee, quick question..... I'm not sure from reading the Bogen GS manual, how to hook up mics (2) to make aux input ducking work ....
http://www.bogen.com/products/pdfs/mixerampspdfs/GS35m.pdf
Thx, mark
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Another good question would be verify the power source.
120 single phase ?? or balanced 60 on hot ground and 60 on nuetral ??
If power is balanced then a double pole power switch will be needed.
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Lee, quick question..... I'm not sure from reading the Bogen GS manual, how to hook up mics (2) to make aux input ducking work ....
http://www.bogen.com/products/pdfs/mixerampspdfs/GS35m.pdf
Thx, mark
Been awhile, but I think we either used the telephone input for the ducking mic and/or contact closure on a PTT.
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Lee, quick question..... I'm not sure from reading the Bogen GS manual, how to hook up mics (2) to make aux input ducking work ....
http://www.bogen.com/products/pdfs/mixerampspdfs/GS35m.pdf
Thx, mark
There is no built in trigger for the ducking on a GS unless you are using a telephone input. Once you switch the inputs to be mic pre's you have to use a contact closure to trigger. You use a closure per ducked input. Some mics built for paging/announcement duty have a switch closure pair of wires available for this purpose.
Lee
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There is no built in trigger for the ducking on a GS unless you are using a telephone input. Once you switch the inputs to be mic pre's you have to use a contact closure to trigger. You use a closure per ducked input. Some mics built for paging/announcement duty have a switch closure pair of wires available for this purpose.
Lee
That's what I thought, thanks. Just trying to make sure i wasn't missing something....
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I owe a long overdue followup, and thanks to those who helped me in this thread several months ago.
The small cruise boat install ended up going very well.
For about $1500 in parts, I was able to put in 8 outdoor wall mounted speakers on the top open-air deck, and 10 ceiling mount speakers in the enclosed bottom deck.
Used Berry to save $ .....a $260 SN2408 paging mixer gave ducking inputs (3), variable ducking level, mono summing for 2 ipods, and overall volume and tone controls. Didn't use its integrated 70wamp.
A 3000dsp inuke gave speaker zone control, eq, and limiting.
A bit kludged maybe, using the amp gains for zone volume control, but the crew on boat follows it easy enough....
I intended to 70v the speakers with a 6000dsp (to get the necessary voltage per channel or rather per deck) , but found the wall mounted speakers really sounded better using their 8 ohm setting that bypassed their tranny taps.
Since decent size wire was more or less in place, I just series/paralled speakers on each deck to bring load to around 4 ohms per channel, and was able to drop down to the 3000 amp.
All in all it was a great leaning experience, more importantly with happy results.
Thx again for the help! Mark
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The series-parallel speaker configuration could get dicey to troubleshoot in the future if/when speakers go bad.. I hope you documented the funny wiring, so some service guy in the future can suss it out.
The CV systems are easier that way... while cheap transformers won't like bass boost.
JR
JR
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The series-parallel speaker configuration could get dicey to troubleshoot in the future if/when speakers go bad.. I hope you documented the funny wiring, so some service guy in the future can suss it out.
JR
Good point! I'll leave them with some better drawings......