Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sat, 15 December 2007 19:22 |
Well, after a day of fun, the results are in! |
Douglas R. Allen wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 08:48 |
Maybe I missed it in the reading but I see a Clair ML18 in the picture but no reviews.? Did it fail or just not tested? Douglas R. Allen |
Bob Leonard wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 04:16 |
1. What were the DSP settings, and why were they not changed for each sub. 2. What was the input power. 3. Was the amp run stereo or bridged mono. 4. Were all of the subs ever listened to at the same SPL or was it "This is what you get with this much power." 5. Will anyone be posting the street price of these boxes along with the model number AND manufacturers name for those who may be interested. 6. What was the test equipment used to measure the SPL, including the mike type. 7. What was the program material used to run the tests. Thanks for running the tests! |
Scott Hibbard wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 11:52 |
P.S. Ivan...I wish the TH-Mini had a built-in pole mount. |
Quote: |
Evan |
Steve Hurt wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 12:13 |
My wife came in and asked me what I was laughing at. That cake is awesome! |
brandon g. romanowski wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 13:00 |
You guys did not even set the DSP for each sub. I know my line arrays would suck without the correct DSP. I really think thats kind of lame guys. |
Rob Spence wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 12:11 | ||
Hmmm, maybe a bracket that spans a pair of them with a pole mount on it? I suspect a single doesn't have the stability to have a pole mounted top up there. |
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 12:46 | ||
Apples to oranges man. Show me processor settings for these subs, oh wait, their arent any! Evan |
Dan Kok wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 14:40 |
Disclaimer: I own four TH-115s and I admit I'm disappointed to read Evan's lukewarm review. I don't know how to get from "I was pretty disappointed with this one." to "But, with that said, they sound great. They went the lowest out of any single sub, and sounded the best by far." I also wonder if there would have been so much concern for "mid-bass" (arguably, not what a subwoofer is for) had the tops been a model without a known mid-bass deficiency. I'm sure the event was fun and I apologize in advance for the wrath this will likely bring down, I'm just trying to understand the results. -- Dan |
brandon g. romanowski wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 13:00 |
You guys did not even set the DSP for each sub. I know my line arrays would suck without the correct DSP. I really think thats kind of lame guys. |
brandon g. romanowski wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 13:00 |
You guys did not even set the DSP for each sub. I know my line arrays would suck without the correct DSP. I really think thats kind of lame guys. |
evan -edited- |
a lot of ass for their size .... but not a lot of impact ..... very "musical ..... lacked impact from the kick hits they do pack a good amount of output for their size. |
Matt Vivlamore -edited- |
... most of the time it couldn’t reproduce the over-riding kick over the bas guitar. |
Phil Lewandowski edited- |
I found these very impressive for their size! They went lower than I expected and did have some good low punch..... |
evan |
However, in singles, the output just disappears. |
Mike Christy wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 18:11 |
I wish I was in MD Saturday, I am really sorry not to meet everyone and enjoy the party. Hats off to everyone who put time in and lent their expertise to make it happen, especially the bakery With regard to Steve's comments, I have used Growlers as singles recently, and I too find them adequate for some applications, especially corporate parties. I have yet to have anyone tell me to turn it up, no matter what the gig, even rock gigs with only 2 cabinets. With that statement, the system is what it is, if the subs are the limiting factor in SPL with regard to overall spectral balance, then it is what it is. My job is to provide quality sound, not necessarily to blow everyone out of the room, although I feel it is my job to translate the bands energy via the PA, and proper high levels of SPL are important for this. But as center coupled I find a pair of Growlers work wonderfully, and I really regret setups where they have to be separated. If the output of a specific pair of subs is not at the require SPL, then another set are are probably required. I think this is probably true no matter what the brand. I'm a little confused by the kick comments at the listening party since there was no live kick drum/mic setup and it was all pre-recorded music played through the system. How can one differentiate between and tag one set of subs as "DJ" subs or live sound subs with only recored music as a reference? Correct me if I am wrong, but front load reflex speakers will always have more "presence" associated with them with respect to horn loaded. With that said, I find it difficult to compare the two different animals, one is apples, one is oranges, neither are bad, both are good. And the kick will sound different through each. The fact that the Growlers fill a nitch exceptionally well, are scalable, and run neck and neck with much high priced and better regarded subs - all without much DSP processing - really says a lot about Jeff's engineering efforts. Great job in MD guys, Evan, Jim and others, I have enjoyed reading the comments. Sorry for the ramble, snowed-in days are boring... Mike |
Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 18:11 |
Hi Guys, My take from the shootout is available here (including the SMARRT6 files available for download), http://www.cobrasound.com/MDSubwoofers [...] Jeff |
Duane Massey wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 20:12 |
Actually, I would prefer a test done exactly the way you did it. No EQ, no tweaking, just the same signal to each box without adjusting for the box's deficiencies or anomalies. I'd much rather have a box that sounds really good with no tweaking than one that needs lots of electronic massaging to sound acceptable. I really wish there was something like this done in our area, but geography is not very friendly in Texas when it comes to getting a lot of people together for an affair like this. Good job, guys, and thanks. |
Dan Kok wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 19:55 |
Interesting there's a TSW-718 in your picture. At one time I _really_ wanted those, now not so much. Was their fate similar to the Clair sub? Thanks, -- Dan |
Jim Bowersox wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 22:11 | ||
Hi Dan, The TSW718 sensitivity was very high...similar to the LAB sub. I guess they didn't get included because Evan didn't originally have them on the shootout schedule. I just had them in my shop and wanted to throw them in the mix. -JB |
brandon g. romanowski wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 11:00 |
You guys did not even set the DSP for each sub. I know my line arrays would suck without the correct DSP. I really think thats kind of lame guys. |
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sat, 15 December 2007 20:22 |
Finally, the Turbo 21: Another sub that didnt impress me too much. Ive heard them before and think they do much better when you get about 6 or 8 of them. But a pair, well, it just wasnt anything to brag about. They sound good and have a smooth sound, but the TH mini's were able to get within a few dB of their performance. The 21's seemed to knock out the lower notes a little better, but in the 60hz+ range, it was a crapshoot. They got a 7 on SQ, 5 on output and 6.5 overall. Evan |
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 01:22 |
TH115: You know, I was pretty disappointed with this one. For $2100, I was expecting more. Of course, there was only 1 there and it would have been nice to have a second... But for just one, I wasnt feeling it. But, with that said, they sound great. They went the lowest out of any single sub, and sounded the best by far. They have a very smooth sound, but lack in the midbass. DJ's would not like them. They got a 10 on Sound Quality, but I only gave them a 6 on output. When I measured the single sub, it was doing 112dB cont, with the PL9.0 flickering -10. Personally, I do not think they are worth the money. If you are looking for a very "musical" sounding sub that goes low, then it might be your ticket. But, one just wasnt as impressive as I thought it would be. I gave them a 7 overall. Evan |
Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 10:17 |
I've updated my post at http://www.cobrasound.com/MDSubwoofers with the frequency response graphs for your enjoyment. Jeff |
Scott Smith wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 10:47 | ||
They all seem to have the same bump at around 60hz. Is this because of the room? |
Winston Gamble wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 10:43 |
I find it interesting that Evan wasn't impressed with the sub that he say's, "went the lowest and sounded the best by far". This made no sense to me until I assumed that it must be purely the effect of the sticker shock which I understand plays a very big role for a small purchaser like Evan and most of us here in the lounge myself included. It is important to note that the only other commercial product in it's performance range namely the Bassmax line come at the same price premium and if the Labsub were to be manufactured and marketed I would expect it to be just as spendy. |
Tim Duffin wrote on Sun, 16 December 2007 22:11 |
did you or did you not use a Wattmeter to compute how much power was going to each sub --- Also, did you remember to put a shorted speakon into the other subs so that they weren't acting as a dynamic load and changing the sound because of sympathetic resonances of the other boxes? From just reading the methodology, the only thing you tested was the impedance of the various woofers. Since Labsubs have lower impedance, they obviously were louder than everything else simply because they were getting more power, even though the blinky lights were the same. If you have the time, I would like to see what all these woofers did when they had the EXACT same measured amount of power. T |
Ivan Beaver wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 12:27 |
I will attempt to try and answer this as unbiased as possible-I personally LOVE the TH115. After listening to all the various subs in the same situation, the best thing I can come up why Evan (and others) may not have been impressed with the TH115 is because of its "lack" of "sound". By this I mean it really did not have a character to it that others had. For example, the labs had an "aggressive" sound to them that would be great for metal/hard rock. The labs were the most "fun" cabinets there-probably why Evan liked them . The Yorkvilles had a more "wooly" sound, fairly deep but lacking in detail/punch. The TH115 seemed "bland" by comparisom and just did a good job of reproducing what went into it, without adding a sound of its own. It did seem lifeless as compared to others. So the real question is what are you looking for a sub to do, accurate reproduction or have a particular tone of its own? There is no "right" answer and it really depends on what you are looking for. Also to remember that during some tests there was a single TH115 against 2 labsubs. In that case the labs were getting 4 times the power the TH115 was and had twice the cabinet/4 times the cones, so the shear output was quite a bit more. Now if there had been 4 TH115's (same wattage/impedance and just about the same cubic volume, I think there would have been some very different results posted |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 12:23 |
The only musical sound source in this frequency range that does not routinely generate harmonic overtone series is the common membranophane (drum). The overtone series which actually varies with relative tension between batter and resonant heads is commonly on the order of 1.7x. Clearly not a harmonic. Some special tom heads with added mass (dots) at the center try to pull the overtone closer to 2x with limited success. Perhaps a listening test between a real kick drum, and recording of said drum played though the sundry speakers would highlight the artifacts introduced by woofs with harmonic distortion. Note: don't use a tympani for this demo since they do operate with a (near) harmonic series of overtones.JR |
Ivan Beaver wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 05:07 |
This was LISTENING party, not a measurement party. BIG difference. The whole measurement process took probably 1/2 hr once we got started. It was just a comparisom based on a given input voltage. How do you figure we tested impedance? I don't see anything that suggests that. What type of "watt meter" do you suggest for this?-I am not aware of any. Wattage is based on impedance and input voltage, with the impedance varying quite a bit-so actual wattage will be very different depending on freq. And how would you suggest we produce the exact same wattage to each loudspeaker? Would that be based on the minimum impedance point in the curve? or maybe the rated nominal impedance? or maybe an average across the band-but exactly what if the band of interest? Which ever way you choose-there will be people who will complain about the method used. You can't please everybody. It is not so easy to do/determine with consistant results between different cabinets, but is real easy to want others to do. |
Tim Duffin wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 17:22 |
First, what the hell is a listening "party" and how can you make any conclusions based on your very unscientific and obviously biased results. |
Phil Lewandowski wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 13:18 | ||
... I think it would have helped to have at least 1 more there... |
Tim Duffin wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 01:22 |
First, what the hell is a listening "party" and how can you make any conclusions based on your very unscientific and obviously biased results. Fact is, you could see which subs were playing and therefore everyone who liked a particular brand was automatically biased and heard whatever they wanted and whatever made them happy about the subs that they liked. "the silver subs sounded better because they sounded more shiny" |
Quote: |
Second. saying some versions of some speakers are "louder" really doesn't show anything-- the testing impedance bit which I wrote was in jest...as in: 'you tested nothing but found that the impedances of woofers are different, thus some are "louder"' |
Quote: |
By isolating specific, narrow band frequencies and then computing the amount of power flowing through a woofer system only at that frequency, you can effectively eliminate any measurement bias related to dynamic impedance. Then, if you are still ready to get all scientific, you can plot the different points for the different freq values, connect the dots and get --ready for this?---curves, yes I said 'curves' which show the output in acoustic watts vs electical watts and graphically see which systems have higher output at specific frequencies and power levels. Of course you would need to graph a different set of curves for every arbitrary power level that you arbitrarily chose to measure. Then, you would need to do it for variable frequencies-- meaning that you would now have 3 variables in 3 dimensions or what some of those wierd 'scientific speaker people' would call a waterfall plot. |
Tim Duffin wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 20:22 |
First, what the hell is a listening "party" and how can you make any conclusions based on your very unscientific and obviously biased results. Fact is, you could see which subs were playing and therefore everyone who liked a particular brand was automatically biased and heard whatever they wanted and whatever made them happy about the subs that they liked. "the silver subs sounded better because they sounded more shiny" T |
Scott Smith wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 20:49 |
n that's how they all should have been compared in my opinion. Also...a 60hz bump on every cab? This (to me) yields much of the test tainted. The boxes should have been tested outdoors. |
Tom Manchester wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 21:19 | ||
It was a bit chilly up here for that Scott. A pleasent 30 something degrees with the threat of an ice storm. I think people are taking this shootout too seriously. Nobody there had a lab coat and clipboard and Jim's shop does not contain a special anechoic chamber. It was just an opportunity to hang out with friends and put some subs side by side and see what they could do. Y'all need to chill and take it for what it is. |
Tom Manchester wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 21:19 |
I think people are taking this shootout too seriously. Nobody there had a lab coat and clipboard and Jim's shop does not contain a special anechoic chamber. It was just an opportunity to hang out with friends and put some subs side by side and see what they could do. Y'all need to chill and take it for what it is. |
Theodore Roosevelt, "Man in the Arena" Speech given April 23, 1910 26th president of US (1858 - 1919) |
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat. |
Dave Barker wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 08:43 |
Heck I still can't believe nobodys even brought up the Monitor Wedge listenting party that we had with the new Danley wedge. That should keep things going!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Tom Manchester wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 16:13 | ||
I think the 2 Carvin wedges and the Yamaha Club series blew it away No seriously though, I think it (the Danley) sounded very hi-fi and had decent output, but I think the sheer driver size of the microwedge would take it to school in an SPL contest. |
Michael Hedden Jr. wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 12:27 |
Don't underestimate the power of a large horn! Based on the Radian published specs the maximum continuous output of either the 12" or 15" version of the microwedge is 123-124dB which is right in line with ours. http://www.radianaudio.com/products/micro/rmw-1152.php?viewT =micro&viewC=rmw-1152 Mike Hedden Danley Sound Labs, Inc. |
Tom Manchester wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 17:03 | ||
Hey Mike, I think my eyes are what decieved me on this one. You guys need to foam back that grill and paint a picture of a 15" and 2" driver on it |
Winston Gamble wrote on Mon, 17 December 2007 10:43 |
....It is important to note that the only other commercial product in it's performance range namely the Bassmax line come at the same price premium and if the Labsub were to be manufactured and marketed I would expect it to be just as spendy... |
Jim Duyck wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 18:47 |
to give those who didn't see it an idea what it looks like, do any of you fine folks have a pic of the new Danley wedge??? thanks. |
Mike Butler (media) wrote on Tue, 18 December 2007 17:34 |
I only question whether, going forward, we can have a proper LAB get-together without go-kart racing. |
Dave Dermont wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 09:10 | ||
Hey, my new house gig is about a mile from Mohegan Sun at Pocono Downs, a slot parlor & horse track. Racing reopens March 31. Should we schedule the get-together before or after that date? |
Dave Dermont wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 09:10 | ||
Hey, my new house gig is about a mile from Mohegan Sun at Pocono Downs, a slot parlor & horse track. Racing reopens March 31. Should we schedule the get-together before or after that date? |
Bob Leonard wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 08:23 |
How about an 18" raw driver shootout? |
Jeff Babcock wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 17:50 |
I would suggest that the next lab get together not be a "shootout". What about just getting people together fairly informally, and have people each bring some interesting pieces of gear that others might want to see and play with.... Off the top of my head something like this..... Dude #1 brings APB Prorack and a Dolby Lake or similar stuff Dude #2 brings SPL Transient Designer and some other less common processors Dude #3 brings LS9/M7CL/PM5/Digi-Venue or similar Others bring Misc tops and subs, misc fx, gates, comps, mics etc. Almost like a Mini-tradeshow, but without all the hype and crap about tradeshows... just real people bringing their favourite toys to check out and let others play around with. It would need SOME organization to keep it from becoming a free for all, but not a lot and I'd bet MANY would be interested..... Just my 2c Jeff |
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 18:26 | ||
Sounds like my first get together. |
Ryan Lantzy wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 18:45 |
...2000-3000 people, open to the public, BYOB (I think). Band plays, Fireworks, Band plays some more. Whaddya think? As long as it doesn't rain, it could be pretty cool. |
Stuart Pendleton wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 09:53 |
Geez...I spent three years with my last 4 subs. I finally decided to upgrade from those 4 LS808's to something notably better...Now you guys have me wondering if my new (to me) 1208's were the right choice or not... |
Jeff Knorr - Cobra Sound wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 08:13 |
I wouldn't write the LS1208's off. I think they offered quite a bit of bang for the buck and wouldn't hesitate to hook them up in a live rig to see what they can do. There have been negative posts about the LS808's too |
Hiep Nguyen wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 10:44 |
what happen to the LA400? I thought someone bring at least 1 to the shootout. |
Stuart Pendleton wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 10:18 |
The 1208's have already been fired up a few times live. I get more from the pair of them than I did from 4 of the 808's. They go lower, and my regular club owners and bands said they "feel" the difference sine they actually rattle the building structure. They do the trick for me and aren't going any where, but you always wonder if you made the right choice (especially after seeing they didn't fair as well as I though they might have) at the shootout |
Phil Lewandowski wrote on Wed, 19 December 2007 14:36 | ||||
Is that In PA? If so I might be able to attend sonething there! Phil! |
Scott Deeter wrote on Thu, 20 December 2007 20:26 |
One question from me At the shootout, did anyone notice the TH-Mini's doing the "Sub Walk-Dance" like the Growler's have been reported to do? |