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Church and H.O.W. – Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Alex Davidyuk on July 28, 2016, 01:37:52 PM
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Hi there everyone,
My name is Alex Davidyuk. I mix sound and perform other tech related duties in my home church. Currently, our church is building a new church facility and I have a few questions regarding the sound system. Before I get into the questions, let me give you some context. Right now, I am working with 4 A/V integrators on the new system. Two of the four integrators will be using Bose Roommatch in their quotes and the other 2 are going with JBL. (One of them will be using a line array and the other I do not know at this point). I don't know if it's ethical for me to share the exact quotes with you guys but if you see nothing wrong with it then I can black out the names of the companys and other personal info and share the exact quotes with you for better context.
Some information about the facility itself:
- It seats around 900 people
- It's very "normal shaped" with good sigh lines everywhere (If you guys want, I can post the floor plan)
- Any other information you guys want, I can provide in the comments.
I'm not sure if it's appropriate to say what our budget is for A/V as I don't want to get in trouble, but if you guys don't see anything wrong with me giving our budget, let me know if that helps answer the questions.
What we will be doing with the sound system:
- Our youth group does full contemporary at youth services. (Electric Guitar, Bass, Acoustic Guitar, Electric Drums, Piano, Keyboard, and Vocals)
- For our Sunday services, we do a more traditional service. A couple people lead vocals with the piano playing for music although I think over time, it will also shift to a more contemporary services.
- Spoken word is very important in our services.
- This is me dreaming big--- Because of the magnitude of our church and how many people it seats, I hope that one day we can do an outreach to the whole city where we live and possibly bring in a band/artist to play on our system
- Let me know if you guys have any other questions about what we will be doing with the sound system and I'd be glad to answer
My Questions
1. What experiences have you had with both the Bose RM and the JBL Arrays?
2. For this application, what system would you choose and why? (Again, if you want the exact quotes, let me know because then you can see how much each system is and determine which one has better bang for buck)
3. Currently, we do not know what we will be doing with the ceiling of our new church. Some people are hoping that we do ceiling clouds for a "modern" look. I just don't want the room to get ruined acoustically by over treating it. What do you guys suggest? Starting off with nothing for the ceiling and then going from there or what? Also, there is supposed to be some ceiling treatment that we are supposed to spray that helps with fire protection and acoustics, does anyone know of where I could find this stuff online?
I can't think of anymore questions as of right now but I will ask if I have any. Please don't be afraid to ask me questions to get a better idea of the situation.
Thank you for your replies in advance, I hope we can get some good discussion going.
Thanks again,
Alex Davidyuk
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Hi there everyone,
My name is Alex Davidyuk. I mix sound and perform other tech related duties in my home church. Currently, our church is building a new church facility and I have a few questions regarding the sound system. Before I get into the questions, let me give you some context. Right now, I am working with 4 A/V integrators on the new system. Two of the four integrators will be using Bose Roommatch in their quotes and the other 2 are going with JBL. (One of them will be using a line array and the other I do not know at this point). I don't know if it's ethical for me to share the exact quotes with you guys but if you see nothing wrong with it then I can black out the names of the companys and other personal info and share the exact quotes with you for better context.
Some information about the facility itself:
- It seats around 900 people
- It's very "normal shaped" with good sigh lines everywhere (If you guys want, I can post the floor plan)
- Any other information you guys want, I can provide in the comments.
I'm not sure if it's appropriate to say what our budget is for A/V as I don't want to get in trouble, but if you guys don't see anything wrong with me giving our budget, let me know if that helps answer the questions.
What we will be doing with the sound system:
- Our youth group does full contemporary at youth services. (Electric Guitar, Bass, Acoustic Guitar, Electric Drums, Piano, Keyboard, and Vocals)
- For our Sunday services, we do a more traditional service. A couple people lead vocals with the piano playing for music although I think over time, it will also shift to a more contemporary services.
- Spoken word is very important in our services.
- This is me dreaming big--- Because of the magnitude of our church and how many people it seats, I hope that one day we can do an outreach to the whole city where we live and possibly bring in a band/artist to play on our system
- Let me know if you guys have any other questions about what we will be doing with the sound system and I'd be glad to answer
My Questions
1. What experiences have you had with both the Bose RM and the JBL Arrays?
2. For this application, what system would you choose and why? (Again, if you want the exact quotes, let me know because then you can see how much each system is and determine which one has better bang for buck)
3. Currently, we do not know what we will be doing with the ceiling of our new church. Some people are hoping that we do ceiling clouds for a "modern" look. I just don't want the room to get ruined acoustically by over treating it. What do you guys suggest? Starting off with nothing for the ceiling and then going from there or what? Also, there is supposed to be some ceiling treatment that we are supposed to spray that helps with fire protection and acoustics, does anyone know of where I could find this stuff online?
I can't think of anymore questions as of right now but I will ask if I have any. Please don't be afraid to ask me questions to get a better idea of the situation.
Thank you for your replies in advance, I hope we can get some good discussion going.
Thanks again,
Alex Davidyuk
What are the models of the JBL arrays?
For all arrays what is the cabinet compliment?
For JBL what is being specified for processing?
Lee
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What are the models of the JBL arrays?
For all arrays what is the cabinet compliment?
For JBL what is being specified for processing?
Lee
For the floor of the sanctuary:
- 18 JBL VRX 928LAs being split up into 4 arrays (2 with 5 boxes and 2 with 4)
- 4 JBL VRX 915S Line Array Subs
For the balcony:
- 4 JBL CBT70J-1 Line Arrays
- 4 JBL CBT70JE-1 Low frequency extension loudspeaker
I'm not sure what you mean by processing. Could you explain a bit?
I still don't know what our other integrator will be doing for the JBL system that he will design but that's one of them.
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For the floor of the sanctuary:
- 18 JBL VRX 928LAs being split up into 4 arrays (2 with 5 boxes and 2 with 4)
- 4 JBL VRX 915S Line Array Subs
For the balcony:
- 4 JBL CBT70J-1 Line Arrays
- 4 JBL CBT70JE-1 Low frequency extension loudspeaker
There are so many better products out on the market today that will run circles around the VRX. They are not a true line array. They are a constant curvature array and cannot get long enough to have true 'line array' characteristics for anything but the highest octaves. I'm not sure if you can actually do 5 boxes or if 4 is the limit. Either way, RUN, do not walk away from this quote.
For the $45k or so you're spending for all that VRX and CBT stuff you could get a really nice system.
I've never heard or used the RoomMatch stuff. It's supposed to be better than most Bose, but that still isn't saying much.
Where are you located? Maybe a member here can offer some assistance.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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There are so many better products out on the market today that will run circles around the VRX. They are not a true line array. They are a constant curvature array and cannot get long enough to have true 'line array' characteristics for anything but the highest octaves. I'm not sure if you can actually do 5 boxes or if 4 is the limit. Either way, RUN, do not walk away from this quote.
For the $45k or so you're spending for all that VRX and CBT stuff you could get a really nice system.
I've never heard or used the RoomMatch stuff. It's supposed to be better than most Bose, but that still isn't saying much.
Where are you located? Maybe a member here can offer some assistance.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm a bit confused by this reply. Are you saying that VRX is bad and that we should stay away from this quote or that it's good? Also why is it bad/good? Also, we are located in South Dakota.
Thanks,
Alex
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I went to a Bose RM demo in Hartford, CT. I was not at all impressed. I would not accept it for anything I do. That said, I was recently at a metal fab shop where they make the fly frames and they were churning them out, so people must be buying them.
At the demo, you could kind of a/b between the in house D&B rig and the RM. The house system tech commented that it was like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I have to agree.
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I'm a bit confused by this reply. Are you saying that VRX is bad and that we should stay away from this quote or that it's good? Also why is it bad/good? Also, we are located in South Dakota.
Thanks,
Alex
Sorry, I think I missed a comma, which may have led to the confusion.
The VRX isn't god awful, but there are much better products on the market at that same price point. I cannot think of a single circumstance where I would spec VRX for a new install. The fact that this is your integrators go-to box suggests they might not be qualified for the job.
You stated earlier that it is very 'normal shaped' with good sight lines everywhere. Do you have a floor plan or a drawing you can share? What is the ceiling height? That is important.
Can you share what your total budget is for the speakers/amps/processing?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Sorry, I think I missed a comma, which may have led to the confusion.
The VRX isn't god awful, but there are much better products on the market at that same price point. I cannot think of a single circumstance where I would spec VRX for a new install. The fact that this is your integrators go-to box suggests they might not be qualified for the job.
You stated earlier that it is very 'normal shaped' with good sight lines everywhere. Do you have a floor plan or a drawing you can share? What is the ceiling height? That is important.
Can you share what your total budget is for the speakers/amps/processing?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The floor plan can be viewed from this dropbox link: https://db.tt/XL8rYHgv
Not sure the exact height but if I was to give my best guess it would be 50-60 feet.
Are budget is 130K for sound and video although we can go slightly above that, maybe +/- 10K.
Thanks sincerely! Let me know if you have any other questions
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The floor plan can be viewed from this dropbox link: https://db.tt/XL8rYHgv
Not sure the exact height but if I was to give my best guess it would be 50-60 feet.
Are budget is 130K for sound and video although we can go slightly above that, maybe +/- 10K.
Thanks sincerely! Let me know if you have any other questions
Alex,
Being new here and I am relatively a new comer myself to these forums I want to point out to you that this is not your average forum. You have stumbled into a room where the best and the brightest working in the top venues in the country, for artists you have heard, with the largest providers, in top market PAC's, in the amazing houses of worship and even a vendor that specializes in stadiums with 6 figure capacities that the owner and is right hand man will tell you anything you want to know about themselves, their products and how they do business.
When I came in here for the first time I had just tried my hand at providing production for local venues thinking my lifetime of experience audio somehow prepared me to do mobile events, expressing frustration after a gig I couldn't handle I was offered advice and consolation. In two years I have gone from being a one man guy working with a few friends out of a run out minivan to running 10-15 shows a week, providing production support at a local chain of live music venues, working with some of the best artists in town and really having the time of my life, ready to retire from my primary vocation in a few years and do this full time. I owe a large part of it to the advice and counsel I have received here. I have received honest, considered, technically accurate information and salient business advice.
Lastly, there are a group of people here who consider production in a house of worship to be service to our Lord and that designing a system that delivers the word with clarity and consistently, is easy to operate for a volunteer staff and provide a long service life to be their most important duty. Further, proper stewardship of the funds allocated is the highest priority. I have been involved in HOW production since I was 13 years old, it was literally my first gig. I volunteered at a mega church in Jacksonville and have served at all sizes of facilities. I, and everyone else that has been around the block a few times have seen money thrown out the window, poorly designed systems that are a source of constant misery and derision in the decision making process that has challenged leadership teams to the core.
The one thing these deployments have in common is someone wandering into this forum, or a shop etc. and asking if this is the right speaker for the job. The speakers, while the most visible and to some the most visceral part of the signal chain the truth is you are designing a system. Everything matters and a simple plan view drawing of a room is insufficient data to make anything but the most general of comments. Your designer should be intimately familiar with your style of worship and performance, the design and materials used in the construction and furnishing of the space, the composition and management style of the production team and of course a clear budget and some authority to say it's too little or too much to meet your goals.
If your integrator is not doing those things, or you are comparing blind quotes from RFC's sent with a set of drawings you are heading in the wrong direction. I certainly agree that the VRX's, even with the latest V5 tuning are at best a mediocre product in category defined by mediocrity and designed for use by operators that can't afford a real line array but seem to think that just because it's what they see most often it has to be what they need too.
The pendulum is shifting and especially for fixed installs point source (convention for lack of another way of simplifying) devices are once again being seen as the superior choice. The best sound comes from a single speaker as it has no other speakers to interfere and work with. Everything else is a compromise, make the proper design choices is part engineering and part art.
So please listen to these folks, shop around more, visit some other facilities. If you can a demonstration is being held in Kentucky I believe by PSW Sept. 21-22. Many vendors will be there with a live demo. If you can attend it would be a huge benefit to you. Here is a link from the banner LINKY (http://oasc05050.247realmedia.com/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/prosoundweb.com/churchsound.prosoundweb.com/L43/1186148497/Middle1/Ehpub/PSW_LSI_House_Forums_2016/Livesound_rect1_092016.jpg/682b796a396c586c4549554142457946?x)
I wish you great success for your project and congregation. Thanks for taking the time to read this.
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The floor plan can be viewed from this dropbox link: https://db.tt/XL8rYHgv
Are budget is 130K for sound and video although we can go slightly above that, maybe +/- 10K.
Never ever tell someone that you might be willing to spend an extra $10K. They will find ways to fill that void with all kinds of nice, and many times useless, toys. If there are cost vs performance constraints, let them tell you.
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The floor plan can be viewed from this dropbox link: https://db.tt/XL8rYHgv
Not sure the exact height but if I was to give my best guess it would be 50-60 feet.
Are budget is 130K for sound and video although we can go slightly above that, maybe +/- 10K.
Thanks sincerely! Let me know if you have any other questions
I pulled a few screen shots out of your plans. Quickly browsing the plans I didn't see a ceiling height. This is usually given on the Reflected Ceiling Plan as xx' Above Finished Floor, but I couldn't find it. It's probably buried in the notes somewhere, but viewing plans on a 15" laptop is less than ideal. I did see a wall height in the sanctuary ranging from 34' to 36', and looking at the section view of the sanctuary I was able to extrapolate some given measurements to estimate the ceiling height to be approx. 35'.
Your main seating area is roughly 450 seats, and the balcony is roughly another 450 seats. If I was working with you as an integrator on this project my first recommendation would be Danley Sound Labs. Probably a few SH96 as the main boxes and maybe some SH95 and/or SM100/SM80 as various fills, depending on what it looks like when we model it. This should fall well within your budget.
I would seek out a Danley dealer in your area. You can check their website or email [email protected] and he should be able to point you in the right direction. You should have no problem getting a Danley rep to bring a system out to demo. Danley engineers are very active on these forums, and now that I've opened the proverbial can of worms I believe they are free to chime in.
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The floor plan can be viewed from this dropbox link: https://db.tt/XL8rYHgv
Not sure the exact height but if I was to give my best guess it would be 50-60 feet.
Are budget is 130K for sound and video although we can go slightly above that, maybe +/- 10K.
Thanks sincerely! Let me know if you have any other questions
Ive just started to do some plan review for you. I should add that part of my real day job is plan review for performance spaces to ensure needs of various parts of the organization I work for are met. So I do this a fair amount. Some thoughts in no particular order
Are you bidding the construction of the building? If so - the specifications are not nearly comprehensive enough
Electrical - it would appear the lighting layout in the sanctuary is fine if you don't ever want to dim the house lights. The model number of the lightolier products does not indicate a dimming capability, and that product even with the dimming capability is not going to dim the way an incandescent does. If you want a smooth dim to black (and I think you will one day), its cheaper to do it right now. Look at products from The Light Source. Tracklights are not going to get you the illumination you will expect onstage, and certainly won't provide options for more contemporary worship in the future. Its really important to get the structural points you need, as well as empty conduit now. Its so much cheaper to do it now.
I also don't think there is enough electricity to the building. If you go to lighting, with modern equipment, a 100 A 3phase should suffice, but put the breaker in the main disconnect now, and then put a company switch in your equipment room so you are close.
HVAC - there are no specs on allowable noise levels. I would also want to see some calculations that take into account the BTU of the equipment that may be installed. Heat is most important where you are located, but a mini split unit (or standard unit with economizer) may be appropriate for the equipment room, as you may need cooing in that room year around.
Sound = 2x 2" conduits isn't enough to the equipment rack IMHO. Conduit is nearly free its so low cost. Go ahead and run 4 @ 4", and find out how they are being routed, below the slab? you will have moisture issues potentially... through the space? then it might be a longer run. Either way, a conduit for lighting, a conduit for sound, a conduit for video, and a spare conduit for visiting companies and expansion.
I have to run some errands but will jump back in some more - this is obviously very incomplete, and doesnt begin to touch on the sound system.
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Ive just started to do some plan review for you. I should add that part of my real day job is plan review for performance spaces to ensure needs of various parts of the organization I work for are met. So I do this a fair amount. Some thoughts in no particular order
Sound = 2x 2" conduits isn't enough to the equipment rack IMHO. Conduit is nearly free its so low cost. Go ahead and run 4 @ 4", and find out how they are being routed, below the slab? you will have moisture issues potentially... through the space? then it might be a longer run. Either way, a conduit for lighting, a conduit for sound, a conduit for video, and a spare conduit for visiting companies and expansion.
I have to run some errands but will jump back in some more - this is obviously very incomplete, and doesnt begin to touch on the sound system.
+++++ on the conduit. No such thing as to much. Times change and cables that haven't been invented yet will need to be pulled. Speaking of pulling. Pull extras. Extra conductors in the AC conduit. Extra CAT5s Lots of extra CAT5s Right not you can run sound video, Lighting control, and even power over CAT5
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Ive just started to do some plan review for you.
More thoughts between meetings...
If you ever want to bring outside bands in you will need a way for them to get their gear to the stage. A rear double door on the building with a clear path to the stage, with curb cuts and ramps to stage level will be your friend. One day you might want to move that piano, so go ahead and figure out how that can work now.
Looking at the structural plates - I am not a structural engineer - I would be concerned about your roof capacity. You are going to eventually (if you go to full production) want to put thousands of pounds of gear in the air... Lets say maybe 3 ETC prodigy hoists, one front of house and 2 over stage. Why prodigy? their built in compression tube means only vertical loads are put on the structure meaning less steel is required. Anyway, I would have your architect and structural engineer look at the specs and figure out the placement for them now, so putting them in later is easy. Look at conduit and power for those as well.
Finally sound - the reason you really came here - I agree with scott that a point source solution would probably be the best mix of economics and quality coverage. You could spend more, other ways, and not get appreciably better results.
There is another discussion here on EASE models, and how they can be made to appear better than they are. Read up on that, and then ask your 4 integrators to provide ease or other models of their choices. And perhaps look at other choices for vendors. Your budget is fine for the moment, you should be able to get a quality setup for that price. Don't offer budget flexibility, let the vendors tell you why the extra $5K is worth it.
Good luck - let us know what other questions you have.
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For the floor of the sanctuary:
- 18 JBL VRX 928LAs being split up into 4 arrays (2 with 5 boxes and 2 with 4)
- 4 JBL VRX 915S Line Array Subs
For the balcony:
- 4 JBL CBT70J-1 Line Arrays
- 4 JBL CBT70JE-1 Low frequency extension loudspeaker
I'm not sure what you mean by processing. Could you explain a bit?
I still don't know what our other integrator will be doing for the JBL system that he will design but that's one of them.
Wow, from your explanation this is a pretty good sized project.
Based on what you mention your A/V contractors are suggesting ... I'd drop them. What references or project experience did they have?
As others have mentioned, their APPROACH to come up with a solution and then suggesting these speaker choices seems very questionable.
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Ive just started to do some plan review for you. I should add that part of my real day job is plan review for performance spaces to ensure needs of various parts of the organization I work for are met. So I do this a fair amount. Some thoughts in no particular order
Are you bidding the construction of the building? If so - the specifications are not nearly comprehensive enough
Electrical - it would appear the lighting layout in the sanctuary is fine if you don't ever want to dim the house lights. The model number of the lightolier products does not indicate a dimming capability, and that product even with the dimming capability is not going to dim the way an incandescent does. If you want a smooth dim to black (and I think you will one day), its cheaper to do it right now. Look at products from The Light Source. Tracklights are not going to get you the illumination you will expect onstage, and certainly won't provide options for more contemporary worship in the future. Its really important to get the structural points you need, as well as empty conduit now. Its so much cheaper to do it now.
I also don't think there is enough electricity to the building. If you go to lighting, with modern equipment, a 100 A 3phase should suffice, but put the breaker in the main disconnect now, and then put a company switch in your equipment room so you are close.
HVAC - there are no specs on allowable noise levels. I would also want to see some calculations that take into account the BTU of the equipment that may be installed. Heat is most important where you are located, but a mini split unit (or standard unit with economizer) may be appropriate for the equipment room, as you may need cooing in that room year around.
Sound = 2x 2" conduits isn't enough to the equipment rack IMHO. Conduit is nearly free its so low cost. Go ahead and run 4 @ 4", and find out how they are being routed, below the slab? you will have moisture issues potentially... through the space? then it might be a longer run. Either way, a conduit for lighting, a conduit for sound, a conduit for video, and a spare conduit for visiting companies and expansion.
I have to run some errands but will jump back in some more - this is obviously very incomplete, and doesnt begin to touch on the sound system.
I should have mentioned that the construction is already well under way.
I'll be in touch with the electrician about dimming interfaces.
As far as conduit goes, the 2 2 inch conduits are run in the floor. At this point in the construction, I think we can add more conduit without hesitation. We are only at the stage of putting up electrical conduits up as well as starting on HVAC.
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I should have mentioned that the construction is already well under way.
I'll be in touch with the electrician about dimming interfaces.
As far as conduit goes, the 2 2 inch conduits are run in the floor. At this point in the construction, I think we can add more conduit without hesitation. We are only at the stage of putting up electrical conduits up as well as starting on HVAC.
Get in there quick then... even a change order now is cheaper than if drywall is already up...
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As far as conduit goes, the 2 2 inch conduits are run in the floor.
Don't be surprised if you have moisture issues in the conduit, if the conduit is below the slab buried in the soil.
Moisture does not necessarily mean that the conduit leaks. What happens is that warm humid air (and you do get humidity in SD in the summer!) enters the conduit, then cools and the humidity condenses on the walls of the conduit.
That means that you'll need to seal the portals of the conduits. For conduits with permanently installed cabling, use a removable sealant (so you can remove it to add cabling later). For empty conduits, you might just cap them off, and use removable sealant when you run temporary cabling.
Sealing might not be a perfect solution, but it should significantly help the moisture problem. You don't want to pull a snake through your conduit only to discover that you've just drug the connectors through water.
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Never ever tell someone that you might be willing to spend an extra $10K. They will find ways to fill that void with all kinds of nice, and many times useless, toys. If there are cost vs performance constraints, let them tell you.
Not everybody is that way.
I have NEVER taken advantage of anybody-especially like that.
If they don't have enough money for what they are wanting, I will tell them and ask if there in anyway to come up with some more.
If they can't, I would discuss what some cost saving options are.
But I am not in sales-just engineering
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Your main seating area is roughly 450 seats, and the balcony is roughly another 450 seats. If I was working with you as an integrator on this project my first recommendation would be Danley Sound Labs. Probably a few SH96 as the main boxes and maybe some SH95 and/or SM100/SM80 as various fills, depending on what it looks like when we model it. This should fall well within your budget.
I would seek out a Danley dealer in your area. You can check their website or email [email protected] and he should be able to point you in the right direction. You should have no problem getting a Danley rep to bring a system out to demo. Danley engineers are very active on these forums, and now that I've opened the proverbial can of worms I believe they are free to chime in.
You correct in some first approaches.
I would start with a 90x60 box in the center and exploded fills on the outside.
The height will determine a lot factors-so that is important.
Danley provides free system design (on the amplifier-processing-loudspeaker part). You can contact [email protected] for more information.
The key to a good loudspeaker design is to use AS FEW LOUDSPEAKERS as possible.
The more you use-BY ANY MANUFACTURER will cause more interaction and lower the quality.
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Not everybody is that way.
I have NEVER taken advantage of anybody-especially like that.
If they don't have enough money for what they are wanting, I will tell them and ask if there in anyway to come up with some more.
If they can't, I would discuss what some cost saving options are.
But I am not in sales-just engineering
I THINK he meant "Never tell them you have another $10K available to spend." Because if you do, they'll find things to add to your invoice to suck up that $10K.
-Ray
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On an install I worked on we installed the Bose RoomMatch speakers. Bose sent their recently retired lead engineer (Bose paid him out of their pocket for this one job) to come program, tune, and commission the system. After they finished I walked the room, it sounded terrible. Dead spots all over the room. The handoff from one array to the next made me feel dizzy and almost fall over. I made them take out their test equipment again and start taking measurements so there was no way to dispute what my ears were hearing. The Bose engineer, my engineer, and myself spent a couple of hours changing, measuring, analyzing, over and over again. We changed delay, phase, crossover points, ect., nothing made it better. On top of that, one of Boss' claims was they could do cardiod sub arrays, a huge plus for this customer. I can't remember their excuse, but Boss' engineer said it actually couldn't be done. I had finally had enough of their excuses and I started to lay into the engineer, I wanted him to admit the product was not good. I was quickly removed from the room by our sales guy and our engineer.
I kind of felt bad for the Boss guy, it wasn't his fault, you can't polish a turd.
The product was poorly designed & engineered, and couldn't deliver on what it claimed.
Thtat is my experience with that system, others may have had a different one.
Also, as others have said, that VRX rig is probably the wrong rig for you.
If 4 different companies got it so badly wrong, I wonder if there was some miscommunication or non-complete information given out when asking for bids. On the other hand, a good company, with good sales people, would have asked the proper question in order to get the correct information. You really need a seasoned expert that is looking out for you on this project, not someone who is just trying to sell you something.
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I THINK he meant "Never tell them you have another $10K available to spend." Because if you do, they'll find things to add to your invoice to suck up that $10K.
-Ray
I have never done that, and neither have the companies I have worked for.
We tell the customer what a system will cost that meets their needs.
If they want to add something, then that is fine, but we have never (at least that I am aware of) filled up an order just to get the extra money.
I guess that is the difference when you work with a reputable company that believes in treated people fairly and as they would like to be treated.
And NOT just as an order with dollars attached to it
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I have never done that, and neither have the companies I have worked for.
We tell the customer what a system will cost that meets their needs.
If they want to add something, then that is fine, but we have never (at least that I am aware of) filled up an order just to get the extra money.
I guess that is the difference when you work with a reputable company that believes in treated people fairly and as they would like to be treated.
And NOT just as an order with dollars attached to it
I actually prefer that customers NOT tell me their budget, at least not until I give them my first proposal. I would rather they just tell me their NEEDS, let me design a system to meet it, and then see how close we are. Sometimes we're under budget, sometimes we're way over budget, but at least we have a starting point and we didn't get there by chasing a number.
Then, if we're over budget we can talk about ways to cut back and what they would have to give up to get there. Or, if we're under budget we can talk about 'nice-to-have' items, but only if they want to. My goal is to provide a solution to your problems, and I don't really care about the price. If I spend 80% of your budget but don't solve your problems, I did you a disservice. If I went over budget by 20% but I hit every design criteria, you're going to be much happier in the long run.
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I actually prefer that customers NOT tell me their budget, at least not until I give them my first proposal. I would rather they just tell me their NEEDS, let me design a system to meet it, and then see how close we are. Sometimes we're under budget, sometimes we're way over budget, but at least we have a starting point and we didn't get there by chasing a number.
Then, if we're over budget we can talk about ways to cut back and what they would have to give up to get there. Or, if we're under budget we can talk about 'nice-to-have' items, but only if they want to. My goal is to provide a solution to your problems, and I don't really care about the price. If I spend 80% of your budget but don't solve your problems, I did you a disservice. If I went over budget by 20% but I hit every design criteria, you're going to be much happier in the long run.
This.
It is far more effective and a better use of funds to first determine your needs and then determine what equipment will fulfill those needs. Only after that do you start looking at the price; if the price is higher what you have available, then one of two things will happen: either you reevaluate your needs, or you manage to find the money you need. If the price is higher than you expected, your expectations had no valid basis.
When taken in the proper order, you are more likely to end up with the ideal solution than with a mediocre, inadequate, or inappropriate solution.
I've long advocated for determining needs and finding appropriate solutions before determining budgets. In churches and other not-for-profit organizations, when you have a clear plan forward the purse strings seem to loosen. People are more willing to donate money to a project if they can see exactly what you're planning to spend it on. If it's ambiguous with no clear determination of cost, the benefactors are likely to be stingy.
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My point was if your budget is $100K, then that is the budget. Don't say you have a budget of $100K, but are willing to spend an extra $10K. You really should say that you have a budget of $110K.
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I actually prefer that customers NOT tell me their budget, at least not until I give them my first proposal. I would rather they just tell me their NEEDS, let me design a system to meet it, and then see how close we are. Sometimes we're under budget, sometimes we're way over budget, but at least we have a starting point and we didn't get there by chasing a number.
I had a Church come to me once.
They say their sound system needed to be upgraded.
They held a meeting and voted and determined a budget.
Something told me to ask what they were looking for and an idea of budget.
They wanted a "mixer thing-new mics-new speakers".
They said their budget was $100 but might could go a little higher.
Sadly they had already used up their budget talking to me-----
They thought we could give a better price than Radio Shack.
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I actually prefer that customers NOT tell me their budget, at least not until I give them my first proposal. I would rather they just tell me their NEEDS, let me design a system to meet it, and then see how close we are. Sometimes we're under budget, sometimes we're way over budget, but at least we have a starting point and we didn't get there by chasing a number.
Then, if we're over budget we can talk about ways to cut back and what they would have to give up to get there. Or, if we're under budget we can talk about 'nice-to-have' items, but only if they want to. My goal is to provide a solution to your problems, and I don't really care about the price. If I spend 80% of your budget but don't solve your problems, I did you a disservice. If I went over budget by 20% but I hit every design criteria, you're going to be much happier in the long run.
Love this. I work by the same method. If I know it's a higher ticket (like $40k+) I might drop some hints at that in needs discussions, mostly to see if I get the loss of breath reaction. This has saved me a few times on wasting a ton of time on quotes for folks who had no real budget for what they wanted to do.
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Love this. I work by the same method. If I know it's a higher ticket (like $40k+) I might drop some hints at that in needs discussions, mostly to see if I get the loss of breath reaction. This has saved me a few times on wasting a ton of time on quotes for folks who had no real budget for what they wanted to do.
Qualifying customers, determining needs frankly these are core attributes of a good consultancy no matter what the discipline.
In every technical discipline there are practitioners at different levels of expertise and their fees are proportional to their ability to communicate and execute a plan.
The first level of folks are generally not even capable of completing a job without financial underwriting from their customer. Since they are usually broke, sole practitioners their view is clouded that every decision is made under financial duress.
The second level is the survivors of the first level, they have a few staff members, may or may not meet payroll on a consistent basis. They deliver budget solutions. They work but are rarely defined by performance criteria but by simple needs. Connect to Internet, make noise, etc.
The third level have been around the block and start to move into a consultative role. There are so many models but along the way many get attached to a brand and end up as a reseller. Leads are exchanged. The vendor supports the VAR to make sure the product is being deployed correctly.
You get the idea, it escalates from there until you hit the A list shops. They are A list because they have the resources to take on large projects and are bondable. When you have to walk into a bid with a million dollar performance bond it tends to weed out the wannabe's. The funny thing is there is generally a regression from the cutting edge at this point as the risk is too high. You see mature proven solutions delivered at this level. Rarely sexy.
Then you have the no holes barred, they want the latest and are willing to pay and deal with the pain of early adoption. There are firms that specialize in these customers also.
The key is that the projects are managed. There is a clear design build process. The client and the integrator have communicated to the point that they share a common vision. You then manage to that outcome.
Getting that level of performance is far more expensive than most people realize and for a team doing a first build and usually production infrastructure is an afterthought. It's just the speakers is the mindset of the uninitiated.
The problem is exacerbated on church builds. Older churches who are seeing worship styles transitions are not familiar with the details of the new production elements. Hopefully these churches have retained a specialty architect or design build firm that can guide them down the path. If they haven't then the designer will also not include adequate infrastructure in the design.
Young church's are often doing their first build and the budget is tight and experience is low.
The problem is that nobody is going to tell you they left the church because they con't not understand the message, or the music was intolerable. It's also subconscious preference creating a bias. The space is not comfortable for parishioners or performers.
It happens every day and it's a tragedy. But it's a preventable one.
I suggested going to worship FX and I didn't see a response to that. Especially if you can bring along someone to help bring back the message.
You (the OP) are faced with a daunting task to go back to the board and ask them to stop a project. That will be hard to get support for.
But what is the alternative, spending 100's of thousands of dollars on the wrong space.
Fix it now while you have the chance.
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Qualifying customers, determining needs frankly these are core attributes of a good consultancy no matter what the discipline.
That is the FIRST step.
A salesman should know what the "typical" company process and pricing is.
If does not fit into that, then they need to simply walk away.
Some customers are only about price, they don't care about quality of performance or service or quality of the install.
Cheap is all they want.
That is fine if that is your target market.
There is a point that it simply is not worth doing.
I must admit there have been a couple of times that we met with the customer and the initial reaction was "this is a waste of time". But in the end they good a good system and spent more-without us having to pull it from them.
We asked what they were looking for and gave them a price and explained the price.
Once case was a BBQ place.
They wanted to know why our price was higher than the local music store quoted.
We asked what their "signature dish was". They were a little confused-but said their ribs were the best.
"But I can get a Mcrib at McDonalds for a lot less" we said.
That was the end of the discussion. They understood immediately and we got the install. They it wasn't the same-but had the same "name"-ribs.
Just because something "appears" to be the same-at a lower price DOES NOT mean it is as good.
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I actually prefer that customers NOT tell me their budget, at least not until I give them my first proposal. I would rather they just tell me their NEEDS, let me design a system to meet it, and then see how close we are. Sometimes we're under budget, sometimes we're way over budget, but at least we have a starting point and we didn't get there by chasing a number.
Then, if we're over budget we can talk about ways to cut back and what they would have to give up to get there. Or, if we're under budget we can talk about 'nice-to-have' items, but only if they want to. My goal is to provide a solution to your problems, and I don't really care about the price. If I spend 80% of your budget but don't solve your problems, I did you a disservice. If I went over budget by 20% but I hit every design criteria, you're going to be much happier in the long run.
That's basically what we did recently. We knew we needed a new sound system. We brought in 4 different companies, showed them the room, told them what the problems were with our current system, and told them what our goals were and left it at that. We got 4 different proposals. Then it was up to us, we prayed over it extensively, and interviewed each company.
Our new system will be installed next week. I didn't get everything I WANTED but I'm satisfied we got everything we NEEDED.
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That's basically what we did recently. We knew we needed a new sound system. We brought in 4 different companies, showed them the room, told them what the problems were with our current system, and told them what our goals were and left it at that. We got 4 different proposals. Then it was up to us, we prayed over it extensively, and interviewed each company.
Our new system will be installed next week. I didn't get everything I WANTED but I'm satisfied we got everything we NEEDED.
If you don't mind sharing, what was your budget? And where were these 4 quotes relative to your budget?
What was your reasoning for choosing the company you ultimately went with?
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If you don't mind sharing, what was your budget? And where were these 4 quotes relative to your budget?
What was your reasoning for choosing the company you ultimately went with?
Our budget was well into 6 figures. Some of the quotes were more inclusive than others. (monitors, db of coverage etc) 2 of the companies we felt were just trying to push a product on us. That left us with 2. It really came down to prayer, the interviewing of the company , references, and view of previous installs. We didn't pick the cheapest option. The price was a little more than we wanted to spend and was a tough sell to the congregation, but like I said above, we are satisfied that we are getting what we NEED for now and the future. I'm looking forward to this next week.
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Listen to Ivan. He knows his stuff.
When my church builds our own building we will be consulting, and using Danley Sound Labs. I'd like to design the sanctuary so that it'll accept and utilize Jericho J1-94...