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Title: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 24, 2017, 12:55:34 AM
Hey guys, I've got an EDM show coming up this weekend. It's the first real EDM show that I'm doing with my equipment and I want to make sure it goes the way it needs to. I've got up to 8 QSC GP 218 subs that I was planning on using. If I was doing a rock show in the same room I would only use 4 subs. So for this show I was thinking of just using 3 per side and ground stacking 4 array modules on top (SLS LS8800). A friend of mine has 4 Cerwin Vega TS42 horns that he swears by for EDM shows. I've been considering them as a center cluster but I'm afraid they'll be more trouble than they're worth.

The room is 78' deep, 89' wide and 20' high. The front of the PA will be about 19' off the back wall. We load in the day before the show so I do have some time to mess around with it if choose to use them.

First question, is it worth it?

2nd if I go through with this is their some recommended crossover points to start with? There is a bit of a gap in the PA right now in the low mids and I'm only slightly worried with only 4 tops a side that I'll be asking those 8" drivers to do more than they should.

I'm not looking for more volume, just more even coverage and additional headroom if I need it.

As always, thanks for the info

Mike







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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Stu McDoniel on January 24, 2017, 02:07:32 AM
Hey guys, I've got an EDM show coming up this weekend. It's the first real EDM show that I'm doing with my equipment and I want to make sure it goes the way it needs to. I've got up to 8 QSC GP 218 subs that I was planning on using. If I was doing a rock show in the same room I would only use 4 subs. So for this show I was thinking of just using 3 per side and ground stacking 4 array modules on top (SLS LS8800). A friend of mine has 4 Cerwin Vega TS42 horns that he swears by for EDM shows. I've been considering them as a center cluster but I'm afraid they'll be more trouble than they're worth.

The room is 78' deep, 89' wide and 20' high. The front of the PA will be about 19' off the back wall. We load in the day before the show so I do have some time to mess around with it if choose to use them.

First question, is it worth it?

2nd if I go through with this is their some recommended crossover points to start with? There is a bit of a gap in the PA right now in the low mids and I'm only slightly worried with only 4 tops a side that I'll be asking those 8" drivers to do more than they should.

I'm not looking for more volume, just more even coverage and additional headroom if I need it.

As always, thanks for the info

Mike







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Why not just center cluster the 8 QSC subs for more output?  Leave the CV's with your friend.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on January 24, 2017, 04:22:35 AM
Why not just center cluster the 8 QSC subs for more output?  Leave the CV's with your friend.

Stacks look cooler.


I'd take 8x QSCs over 4x CVs, if you can power everything adequately. That's 4x ported 18" drivers for each 21" in a horn.

I don't know what the recommended processing on the QSC subs is, and a quick search online didn't turn up much.

Chris
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Keith Broughton on January 24, 2017, 07:59:22 AM
Adding a different style of sub may cause more problems than you think.
Stick with the subs that are all the same.
Centre cluster works better but not as "cool" looking.
I use the SLS 8800's a lot and would be interested to know how 4/side worked out for EDM.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: John Chiara on January 24, 2017, 10:47:47 AM
Why not just center cluster the 8 QSC subs for more output?  Leave the CV's with your friend.

The room is 89' wide. 8 subs in the center...will give a very directional output. I have used 4 of those subs outside centered and the coverage was way too narrow. Aren't they trapezoidal shaped?
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 24, 2017, 10:53:59 AM
I need to stack the subs 3 high to get the 8800's to the proper height. There are no fly points in the club and they don't really have the space for genie towers.

I'd take the 8 subs over the CVs as well. I was just wondering if there was any benefit to using horns for this style of music.

And there are 0 recommended processing sheets for the QSC subs. I've talked with QSC and they said I have to buy their processor if I want to get the settings.

Keith, I'm worried about what the subs will do if I put them in the same space together. I'm really unfamiliar with the results of horn loaded cabinets.

But 4 horn loaded subs as a center cluster horn "would look really cool". If I attempt this am I better off lining the four subs up in a row or putting two on their sides and stacking the other two on top?
I'm curious how they will work as well. I set 4 8800 up the other day against a pair of my qrx212 and they blew them out of the water. So I'm confident that they will preform well. Although they are much more time consuming to setup.


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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 24, 2017, 10:57:02 AM
The room is 89' wide. 8 subs in the center...will give a very directional output. I have used 4 of those subs outside centered and the coverage was way too narrow. Aren't they trapezoidal shaped?

John the WL218 is the trapezoidal sub, these things are giant rectangles. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170124/93eec4febce7b1134be6472e480ca86e.jpg)


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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on January 24, 2017, 10:58:35 AM
Got any measurement gear?
Chances are we can figure out some processing ;)

Chris
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Nathan Riddle on January 24, 2017, 12:37:57 PM
Got any measurement gear?
Chances are we can figure out some processing ;)

Chris

I have access to both 1 GP218 and smaart + mic if he doesn't, I could take measurements.

The single sub is installed in a venue so the measurements will need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Also, my thread discusses this topic already but with different components, perhaps it can be of some help?
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,158560.0.html
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on January 24, 2017, 01:17:34 PM
Michael, given you have a day before to load in and try things, and that you need to use your 8 subs split into LR speaker stands, and it appears that the only cost of trying out the horn subs for use as an additional center stack.....
....is the effort...... unless the effort is simply too much hassle, I'd give the horn-subs a try.

I mean, great chance to learn....
And indoors, IMHO, all bets are off with subs anyway...even if they're all the same..
The room adds so many "reflected virtual subs", it's pretty much trial and error (at least for me)... ...(without any prediction software)..
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 24, 2017, 01:17:38 PM
I have access to both 1 GP218 and smaart + mic if he doesn't, I could take measurements.

The single sub is installed in a venue so the measurements will need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Also, my thread discusses this topic already but with different components, perhaps it can be of some help?
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,158560.0.html

I don't have any real measurement software, the closest thing I have to Smaart is an integration with the Presonus software. I do have the dbx measurement mic and an interface if there is software that I could download without spending $500+. I should have some time on Saturday to mess around.




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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 24, 2017, 01:27:05 PM
Michael, given you have a day before to load in and try things, and that you need to use your 8 subs split into LR speaker stands, and it appears that the only cost of trying out the horn subs for use as an additional center stack.....
....is the effort...... unless the effort is simply too much hassle, I'd give the horn-subs a try.

I mean, great chance to learn....
And indoors, IMHO, all bets are off with subs anyway...even if they're all the same..
The room adds so many "reflected virtual subs", it's pretty much trial and error (at least for me)... ...(without any prediction software)..

That's exactly what I was thinking. I don't ever have this much time to mess around with gear and it's my first EDM event with my gear. It's usually, get in get out. If it was any other genre of music I wouldn't even consider the extra subs.

Worst case scenario I can put the subs back in the trailer and take them home a day early.



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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Nathan Riddle on January 24, 2017, 01:43:39 PM
I don't have any real measurement software, the closest thing I have to Smaart is an integration with the Presonus software. I do have the dbx measurement mic and an interface if there is software that I could download without spending $500+. I should have some time on Saturday to mess around.


You have everything you need. You can download SMAART's 30 day trial for free.

The problem is getting useful measurements and the learning curve is quite steep.

Though I agree with Mark. Switch between the two and try it out.

Something to note is when switching different' speakers on/off to "ground out" the speakers that are off. [atleast that's what i've read before, not sure if it still carries truth].
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 24, 2017, 01:56:45 PM
Perfect, I will give it a shot and I will try to get the system up and running in my apartment before hand. Maybe I'll take some reading of my stereo or something.

What do you mean by "ground out"?


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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on January 24, 2017, 02:04:21 PM

What do you mean by "ground out"?


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It means short the speaker outputs.

If speakers, particularly subs, are in close proximity, the sub just sitting there acts as a passive radiator and dicks up the response.  Shorting pretty much stops that.

I've measured it on subs...it can be fairly substantial if in close proximity. 
Might not matter if your case ....if you have enough distance.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Nathan Riddle on January 24, 2017, 02:07:50 PM
Perfect, I will give it a shot and I will try to get the system up and running in my apartment before hand. Maybe I'll take some reading of my stereo or something.

What do you mean by "ground out"?


Sorry, it's a phrase I use for draining capacitors so they don't shock you.

Bridge the neg/pos wires on each sub with a short wire so the cones don't move (thus either absorbing sound energy) or performing like a passive radiator.

Before getting started, read both of these guides.

http://www.rationalacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Getting-Started-with-Smaart-v7.4.pdf
https://www.rationalacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Smaart-v7-IR-Guide.pdf

Also, the measurement guru's will stress that getting useful measurements or interpreting the results is the largest part; not getting the software and hardware to communicate. They will also tell you that without taking a course it's pretty much useless to try.

I somewhat agree, experiment have fun; but don't even think for a second that they are useful measurements. [I'm still in this phase]
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 24, 2017, 02:11:51 PM
"Short the speaker outputs" to me means "turn off the amp"

But it sounds like I should move the other speakers away. Do you think that throwing a couple packing blankets and sandbags in the horns will deaden them enough.

I planned on laying the horns down (horns out) and double stacking. Unless having the four upright is a better option. Again I've never deployed a set of horns. Just going off what I've seen.


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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Nathan Riddle on January 24, 2017, 02:26:25 PM
"Short the speaker outputs" to me means "turn off the amp"

No. Unplug the amp and short the binding posts.

But it sounds like I should move the other speakers away. Do you think that throwing a couple packing blankets and sandbags in the horns will deaden them enough.

No. Unless you are moving them to a different building (which to me is more work than shorting the binding posts).
No. Unless you fill the horns with concrete (which to me is way more work than shorting the binding posts).

I planned on laying the horns down (horns out) and double stacking. Unless having the four upright is a better option. Again I've never deployed a set of horns. Just going off what I've seen.

True 1/2 horns should have their throats coupled; that gives a smoother, louder, and lower response.

If stacking wouldn't work (too high, too much concentrated weight, etc.) then upright is okay.

http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=93983.0
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: lindsay Dean on January 24, 2017, 02:27:54 PM
  mixing subs can create problems
here are 2 Dave ratt videos,
good info
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwLH7zP6Lwo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-3pURYOwfw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSZK9Altvm8
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 24, 2017, 02:33:15 PM
Sorry, it's a phrase I use for draining capacitors so they don't shock you.

Bridge the neg/pos wires on each sub with a short wire so the cones don't move (thus either absorbing sound energy) or performing like a passive radiator.

Before getting started, read both of these guides.

http://www.rationalacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Getting-Started-with-Smaart-v7.4.pdf
https://www.rationalacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Smaart-v7-IR-Guide.pdf

Also, the measurement guru's will stress that getting useful measurements or interpreting the results is the largest part; not getting the software and hardware to communicate. They will also tell you that without taking a course it's pretty much useless to try.

I somewhat agree, experiment have fun; but don't even think for a second that they are useful measurements. [I'm still in this phase]

I'm going to leave my last post up just to acknowledge and learn from my own ignorance.

So you're saying that if I make a NL4 to bare wire adapter and connect the +\- 1 together and the +\-2 together that it will prevent the drivers from moving? Won't the cabinets just resonate at the frequencies they are tuned to when presented with those frequencies? Or does with prevent "passive radiation" as you call it?

I've seen guys get chewed out on different  forums for not supplying proper measurements or using the software incorrectly.

But I've got to start somewhere. So until I meet up with somebody local that I can learn from I'll keep posting here. (I'm in SoCal) It's all fun to me, but not nearly as scientific as I'd like to be.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170124/47e37ed15836251bcbee2093495f3b92.jpg)

This is from the other day when I compared the two stacks. It's amazing what the difference in processors will do. The SLS rig is on a XTA DP266 and the EV's are in a Dc One. The sub filters in the XTA are what I made in the DC one and I didn't realize how different they sounded until I had them side by side.

I'm always interested in learning new things, is there a book that you recommend or a course to take somewhere. Maybe online?





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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Nathan Riddle on January 24, 2017, 03:00:05 PM
I'm going to leave my last post up just to acknowledge and learn from my own ignorance.

So you're saying that if I make a NL4 to bare wire adapter and connect the +\- 1 together and the +\-2 together that it will prevent the drivers from moving? Won't the cabinets just resonate at the frequencies they are tuned to when presented with those frequencies? Or does with prevent "passive radiation" as you call it?

Forgive my brain stopping. Yeah, I hadn't considered the NL4 aspect...perhaps moving the subs away is easier? That's up to you.

Obviously best, is going to be removing the speakers all together.

Someone smarter than I can explain the resonating and radiation etc. All I have seen is not shorting them out and leaving two different speakers in the same area close together can skew your results.

Quote
I've seen guys get chewed out on different  forums for not supplying proper measurements or using the software incorrectly.

But I've got to start somewhere. So until I meet up with somebody local that I can learn from I'll keep posting here. (I'm in SoCal) It's all fun to me, but not nearly as scientific as I'd like to be.

I agree. Just saying, be prepared to be yelled at :P That's why I consider myself still in the learning/don't really know what I'm doing phase in measurements.


Quote
This is from the other day when I compared the two stacks. It's amazing what the difference in processors will do. The SLS rig is on a XTA DP266 and the EV's are in a Dc One. The sub filters in the XTA are what I made in the DC one and I didn't realize how different they sounded until I had them side by side.

If I'm understanding you correctly you were comparing the DSP's on two different rigs?
I'd say too many variables to say it was the 'DSP' that made the difference.

If you're saying you compared two different rigs and are just commenting that the differing DSP is interesting.
Then I'd say, what are you trying to accomplish?

There's been a few threads around with JR & others talking about the differences in the DSP and how basically all of them are different (magnitude, phase, delay) even though they say/do the same exact thing.

Quote
I'm always interested in learning new things, is there a book that you recommend or a course to take somewhere. Maybe online?

I've sorta been compiling a list.

https://timobeckmangeluid.wordpress.com
https://www.merlijnvanveen.nl/en/
www.rationalacoustics.com/training/
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,78.0.html
Bob McCarthy's book; "Sound Systems: Design and Optimization: Modern Techniques and Tools for Sound System Design and Alignment" 3rd Edition
Nathan Lively's book.
https://www.rationalacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Smaart-v7-IR-Guide.pdf
http://www.rationalacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Getting-Started-with-Smaart-v7.4.pdf
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 24, 2017, 03:20:50 PM
Forgive my brain stopping. Yeah, I hadn't considered the NL4 aspect...perhaps moving the subs away is easier? That's up to you.

Obviously best, is going to be removing the speakers all together.

Someone smarter than I can explain the resonating and radiation etc. All I have seen is not shorting them out and leaving two different speakers in the same area close together can skew your results.

I agree. Just saying, be prepared to be yelled at :P That's why I consider myself still in the learning/don't really know what I'm doing phase in measurements.


If I'm understanding you correctly you were comparing the DSP's on two different rigs?
I'd say too many variables to say it was the 'DSP' that made the difference.

If you're saying you compared two different rigs and are just commenting that the differing DSP is interesting.
Then I'd say, what are you trying to accomplish?

There's been a few threads around with JR & others talking about the differences in the DSP and how basically all of them are different (magnitude, phase, delay) even though they say/do the same exact thing.

I've sorta been compiling a list.

https://timobeckmangeluid.wordpress.com
https://www.merlijnvanveen.nl/en/
www.rationalacoustics.com/training/
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,78.0.html
Bob McCarthy's book; "Sound Systems: Design and Optimization: Modern Techniques and Tools for Sound System Design and Alignment" 3rd Edition
Nathan Lively's book.
https://www.rationalacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Smaart-v7-IR-Guide.pdf
http://www.rationalacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Getting-Started-with-Smaart-v7.4.pdf


But if I make a couple of "short cables" could I just connect them to the leads and short out the whole stack of subs?


The original purpose of my test was to see the difference in output between the two top cabinets that we own. Nothing scientific, we just turned the speakers on and walked around the cul-de-sac.  I just happened to notice how different the subs sounded with identical processor settings.

I recently purchased this system used from a friend and am experimenting with different configurations and trying maximize the flexibility of my current systems. 

I've been thinking of selling off gear to make all of my amp racks the same so I don't have to worry about matching systems. But that's a different conversation.


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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Nathan Riddle on January 24, 2017, 03:38:29 PM
But if I make a couple of "short cables" could I just connect them to the leads and short out the whole stack of subs?

Yeah I'd say just parallel all 4 and short one. Should work just fine.

The original purpose of my test was to see the difference in output between the two top cabinets that we own. Nothing scientific, we just turned the speakers on and walked around the cul-de-sac.  I just happened to notice how different the subs sounded with identical processor settings.

I recently purchased this system used from a friend and am experimenting with different configurations and trying maximize the flexibility of my current systems. 

I've been thinking of selling off gear to make all of my amp racks the same so I don't have to worry about matching systems. But that's a different conversation.


Ahh, that makes more sense.

Good luck with it!

I can't wait until I'm doing this full time and I can dedicate some time to actually measuring everything I touch :)

Like why does pre-amp 1 sound different than 2 or eq1 than eq2, etc....
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Geert Friedhof on January 24, 2017, 04:03:46 PM
Why not just use your 8 subs, and put the horns in the middle, and start with only your subs/stacks. Have some kind of rta running. Then turn on the horns slowly, and watch your rta. My guess is that the horns will eat lows (phase problems). Than delay your stacks to the horns. Watch the rta.

If time permits: sinesweep them, and watch. I would look for biggest gain at 60-70 Hz. If you can Matrix: Try to get the horns to operate to about 200 Hz. It will make life easier on your tops. Tops: crossover not lower than 120Hz. maybe 100.  Phase correction alreay done above.

It is EDM: You need all the lows you can get. Or recone your subs...

PS: Looking at the specs of the SLS tops: 4 each side seams to me a bit anemic: 125dBx4=137dB...
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 24, 2017, 04:27:49 PM
I have a DR260 that I was going to use to align the subs together. Possibly do two mono sends and send separate Aux sends for the subs. I would assume there will
Be some overlap but I was thinking of running the TS 42 from 180-160 down to 60-50 and using the GP218 down to 30ish.

I need to stack the subs 3 high to get proper height for the array pack so I'm not sure what to do with the other subs. Initially i was thinking of doing a stick of 2 in the middle, until I was offered these horns. Now I'm just thinking 6 218 and the 4 horns.


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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Nathan Riddle on January 24, 2017, 04:35:01 PM
I'd do the stack of 3 and one to the side like this:
_
=|

I would want as much headroom so the drivers stay nice and cool as possible for EDM.

Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 24, 2017, 05:00:53 PM
"Short the speaker outputs" to me means "turn off the amp"

If the speaker is still connected to the amp it's *likely* that will be enough.

Quote
But it sounds like I should move the other speakers away. Do you think that throwing a couple packing blankets and sandbags in the horns will deaden them enough.

My experience is that you would need to move them 20 feet or more, and then you don't really *know* for sure, do you?  Why go to the trouble when you can just short the speaker?

Quote
I planned on laying the horns down (horns out) and double stacking. Unless having the four upright is a better option. Again I've never deployed a set of horns. Just going off what I've seen.

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Much is made of what parts of the horns should be most directly adjacent.  The actual answer is that if the acoustic centers of both subs are within 1/4 wavelength there will be summation.  Distance matters, vent location (if a vented horn) does not matter by and of itself.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 24, 2017, 05:09:52 PM


There's been a few threads around with JR & others talking about the differences in the DSP and how basically all of them are different (magnitude, phase, delay) even though they say/do the same exact thing.


Sometimes all you have to do is change 1 parameter and all the others are correct.

Sometimes all are correct.

Sometimes you have to change all of them.

Believe me- it is all over the map.  I deal with it all the time.

It even varies between different series in the same manufacturers line.

So not all of Brand X are the same numbers.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 24, 2017, 05:11:34 PM

PS: Looking at the specs of the SLS tops: 4 each side seams to me a bit anemic: 125dBx4=137dB...
That would assume PERFECT coupling-which is not going to happen.

So the real SPL will be lower.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 24, 2017, 06:10:11 PM
Sometimes all you have to do is change 1 parameter and all the others are correct.

Sometimes all are correct.

Sometimes you have to change all of them.

Believe me- it is all over the map.  I deal with it all the time.

It even varies between different series in the same manufacturers line.

So not all of Brand X are the same numbers.

To me this seems like if Stanley, Dewalt and Bosch all made measuring tapes that were measured in inches and feet but none of them were the same. How do they get away with this crap? And how do you guys that work with the gear on a daily basis still put up with this?

I thought about adding the 4th sub on each side but I'm not entirely sure about the placement.

Lastly, I ended up using 4 boxes because I felt that anymore was pointless. I don't have a way to safely angle them downward so more top boxes is just a taller line being thrown to the back of the room. But I'll have enough amps to do 6 a side without bringing another amp rack.


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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 24, 2017, 07:40:44 PM
To me this seems like if Stanley, Dewalt and Bosch all made measuring tapes that were measured in inches and feet but none of them were the same. How do they get away with this crap? And how do you guys that work with the gear on a daily basis still put up with this?


Yes, you would "think" that it should be easy.

I am currently working with a VERY POPULAR DSP that changes amplitude with Q.

It does not matter if you boost or cut, as you make a filter wider it makes the cut (or boost) greater than at a narrower Q.

Basically the only way to make sure that the filters end up being the same is to have a transfer function of the known good filter set, and then use the same measurement system and overlay the new DSP to make sure the new settings end up with the same transfer function
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 24, 2017, 07:58:02 PM
To me this seems like if Stanley, Dewalt and Bosch all made measuring tapes that were measured in inches and feet but none of them were the same. How do they get away with this crap? And how do you guys that work with the gear on a daily basis still put up with this?

I thought about adding the 4th sub on each side but I'm not entirely sure about the placement.

Lastly, I ended up using 4 boxes because I felt that anymore was pointless. I don't have a way to safely angle them downward so more top boxes is just a taller line being thrown to the back of the room. But I'll have enough amps to do 6 a side without bringing another amp rack.


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Hi Michael-

Yeah, one would think there would be a standard!  It took how many years for there to be some "official" proclamation that XLR pin 2 is + ?  I'm not thinking DSP filter standards are coming in my lifetime...

If one has access to the factory DSP, one can use FFT analysis to determine the transfer function through each pass band of the crossover.  It's not entirely necessary to know how the factory achieves whatever they do (it can help a lot, though), but that you have the factory TF which you can lay on the computer screen and work to replicate it using the transfer function of the new DSP - smile and dial until the transfer functions overlay...  Ideally you'd confirm your work by auditioning and measuring the loudspeaker system with both factory and new DSP.

For EDM events I'm all for more cones, provided they're all the same subwoofers; it's a survival thing, mostly.  If you don't want to stack your subs 4-high, don't.  Put #4 on the ground, next to the stack, or pair it up with the 4th box from the other side of the PA and put them together in the middle and see if you like results (hint - this can be modeled, but you might want to hear it, too, because as Ivan says, the room changes everything).
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 24, 2017, 08:15:03 PM


Yeah, one would think there would be a standard!  It took how many years for there to be some "official" proclamation that XLR pin 2 is + ?  I'm not thinking DSP filter standards are coming in my lifetime...




I remember a couple of decades ago (just as the "digital thing" was getting started), there was the discussion about all the problems with analog (different impedances-voltage vs power transfer-different connectors-different levels (dbu vs dbv) and so forth).

It was said "Don't worry-when we go digital it will all be fixed-everything will be easily compatable.

YEAH RIGHT-It is MUCH WORSE NOW.  All the different types of data transfer, gear that doesn't work with each other-DSP numbers that are not transferable.

Agreed Tim, I don't think we will every see it. 

The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.

The big thing is to be aware of the issues, and the problems they can cause, and understand how to deal with it.

This is just another reason for a real measurement system and knowing how to use it.

The numbers may not be as they appear.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 24, 2017, 09:34:18 PM
Hi Michael-

Yeah, one would think there would be a standard!  It took how many years for there to be some "official" proclamation that XLR pin 2 is + ?  I'm not thinking DSP filter standards are coming in my lifetime...

If one has access to the factory DSP, one can use FFT analysis to determine the transfer function through each pass band of the crossover.  It's not entirely necessary to know how the factory achieves whatever they do (it can help a lot, though), but that you have the factory TF which you can lay on the computer screen and work to replicate it using the transfer function of the new DSP - smile and dial until the transfer functions overlay...  Ideally you'd confirm your work by auditioning and measuring the loudspeaker system with both factory and new DSP.

For EDM events I'm all for more cones, provided they're all the same subwoofers; it's a survival thing, mostly.  If you don't want to stack your subs 4-high, don't.  Put #4 on the ground, next to the stack, or pair it up with the 4th box from the other side of the PA and put them together in the middle and see if you like results (hint - this can be modeled, but you might want to hear it, too, because as Ivan says, the room changes everything).

Well there is a "Smaart Operators Fundamentals" course at the end of next month. It's only 90miles or so from me, but it's probably a good place to start digging deeper into this.

As for the subs, I'm not sure what to do exactly. Part of me wants to experiments it's the horns just because I have the space and  time. If not I can bring the other 218 boxes. I do have 3 PL380's so I can put the other 2 in a center cluster and mess around with the delay on the outer subs.







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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: John Rutirasiri on January 24, 2017, 10:21:42 PM
Some things I've learned doing EDM shows...
1) They want LOTS of bass.  Not necessarily deep bass, but chest pounding 50Hz - 130Hz bass.  I typically put LPF higher for EDM shows on my TH118,  around 135Hz. As Tim said, lots of cones.
2) They want sound where the kids dance...right in the middle, in front of the stage.  No need to worry about even coverage or reaching the back of the room where few people hangout.  Comb filtering?  Won't know the difference with all that stuff in the air.
3) They want it loud.  The louder the better.  Don't worry about fidelity. 

I'm intimately familiar with SLS gears and still have a bunch of them.  As crazy as this may sound, the LS8800 would almost be too clean, too detailed.  No need for crystalline, palpitating highs from those gold ribbons with EDM crowd.  I roll off the mains at 8K so I don't get a headache from the DJs cranking EQs on their DJMs and Serratos.  Make sure to have limiters set on your amps/DSP.

Unless you'll be DJing, it's going to be a pretty easy night provided a fight doesn't break out.

John R.





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[/quote]
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 25, 2017, 01:53:31 AM
Some things I've learned doing EDM shows...
1) They want LOTS of bass.  Not necessarily deep bass, but chest pounding 50Hz - 130Hz bass.  I typically put LPF higher for EDM shows on my TH118,  around 135Hz. As Tim said, lots of cones.
2) They want sound where the kids dance...right in the middle, in front of the stage.  No need to worry about even coverage or reaching the back of the room where few people hangout.  Comb filtering?  Won't know the difference with all that stuff in the air.
3) They want it loud.  The louder the better.  Don't worry about fidelity. 

I'm intimately familiar with SLS gears and still have a bunch of them.  As crazy as this may sound, the LS8800 would almost be too clean, too detailed.  No need for crystalline, palpitating highs from those gold ribbons with EDM crowd.  I roll off the mains at 8K so I don't get a headache from the DJs cranking EQs on their DJMs and Serratos.  Make sure to have limiters set on your amps/DSP.

Unless you'll be DJing, it's going to be a pretty easy night provided a fight doesn't break out.

John R.





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Thanks for the insight John,
I kinda figured this was the case but I remember feeling drops in some of this music that is much lower and I'd like to make the most out of the system. Originally I was thinking of using the TS-42 in the center tuned from 130-160 down to 50-60 and having the GP 218 go down to the 30's. But now I'm thinking I can probably just center cluster 2 more GP 218 and move the HPF and LPF up on the center subs and get a little more punch front and center.

My other option is 4 QRX212's, but I didn't like the sound of it compared to the 4 pack. But I think that I'm attracted to the fidelity and the "new factor". I'll crank down on the limiters a little bit and make sure to roll off the graphic. I'm still worried about using the ribbons for EDM.

Have you ground stacked the 8800's before?


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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 25, 2017, 07:40:13 AM
Some things I've learned doing EDM shows...
1) They want LOTS of bass.  Not necessarily deep bass, but chest pounding 50Hz - 130Hz bass.  I typically put LPF higher for EDM shows on my TH118,  around 135Hz. As Tim said, lots of cones.
2) They want sound where the kids dance...right in the middle, in front of the stage.  No need to worry about even coverage or reaching the back of the room where few people hangout.  Comb filtering?  Won't know the difference with all that stuff in the air.
3) They want it loud.  The louder the better.  Don't worry about fidelity. 

I'm intimately familiar with SLS gears and still have a bunch of them.  As crazy as this may sound, the LS8800 would almost be too clean, too detailed.  No need for crystalline, palpitating highs from those gold ribbons with EDM crowd.  I roll off the mains at 8K so I don't get a headache from the DJs cranking EQs on their DJMs and Serratos.  Make sure to have limiters set on your amps/DSP.

Unless you'll be DJing, it's going to be a pretty easy night provided a fight doesn't break out.

John R.





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I would disagree (depending on the particular show) about have clear clean mid/highs.

I have done quite a few EDM shows.  One of the comments I hear people in the audience talking about is how clear and clean the sound is.

These are not people associated with production and they have no idea I am there or who I am or that I am listening.

True-some people simply don't care, but many others DO care-AND NOTICE.

In the "festival setups" where there are multiple stages and different systems, people often come up and ask why the other stages don't sound like the one I am working on, or why the sound doesn't carry as far back.

The thing is that most people have never experienced  really deep solid bass and clear highs, so they don't have any reference.

I remember the very first EDM show I did.  I had been reading about how SPL was the only thing they were interested in.

So I brought a system that was more than enough.

I was quite surprised when the promoter said he was fine with the levels-after I told him he had a lot of room to turn it up if he wanted.

He said "Look at these people-they have never heard anything like this before and see how much fun they are having?  There is no reason to make it any louder".

Often people try to get loud- because they are not getting the "sound" they want, and turning it up is the only thing they understand.

But yes, these events can get quite loud.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Jim McKeveny on January 25, 2017, 07:54:18 AM
It was said "Don't worry-when we go digital it will all be fixed-everything will be easily compatible.

See: "Paperless Office"
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Steve Eudaly on January 25, 2017, 08:13:38 AM
Well there is a "Smaart Operators Fundamentals" course at the end of next month. It's only 90miles or so from me, but it's probably a good place to start digging deeper into this.
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I highly recommend taking this course if you can. Very helpful.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: John Rutirasiri on January 25, 2017, 11:08:56 AM
Have you ground stacked the 8800's before?

I never ground stacked the 8800's...I could never get them high enough by stacking on top of subs -- not enough boxes.  An interesting phenomenon with SLS boxes which you're probably accustomed to: you can be playing blistering loud and it doesn't seem to faze the folks right in front of the speakers.  The people will tend to gather right in front of the speakers, blocking them.  If I don't get them high enough (over people's heads), I lose significant mids and highs -- yes, this applies to all loudspeakers, however it just seems much more severe with SLS boxes, which I attribute to the almost non-existent vertical dispersion of the PRD500 and PRD1000 drivers when not horn-loaded.

So it's important you get the 8800 boxes as high as you can to avoid absorption of the mids and highs.

I do NOT add 6dB boost @ 14K per their recommended EQ settings.  I can't hear that high.  Also (for EDM), if you want to play it a little safer, you can bump the crossover point between the mids and highs to 1500Hz -- I don't think the crowd will hear much difference with EDM music.

Also make sure you strap the flybar to the subs really well.  Unless there will be fencing or bicycle racks separating the crowd from the stage and your stacks, there's likelihood people will CLIMB the subs to get to the stage at some point.  The 8800 boxes are so light that four of them on a flybar on top of subwoofers will be easily moved.  Make all the boxes zero degrees -- no need to angle any box when ground stacking.

Have a great gig,
John R.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Steve Eudaly on January 25, 2017, 02:49:46 PM
Make all the boxes zero degrees -- no need to angle any box when ground stacking.

No direct experience with the SLS boxes in question, but I'd argue against ground stacking any line array with all zero angles.

I've had much better success putting the bottom speaker at a "negative angle" in relation to the fly/stacking bar (assuming this is within its capabilities) then gently curve up to the top of the stack, making it much more similar to the J shape so often used when flying. This assumes the bottom box is indeed over the audience's heads. I'm undoubtedly opening a can of worms here, but all boxes at zero will create lots of more beaming and interference between cabinets. You'll also have a serious hole in coverage down front and energy being wasted on the back wall.

Doing this ground stacked J also shifts the center of gravity forward, so serious measures need to be taken to ensure the back of the array fly/stacking frame is ballasted or secured in some way.

This is solely based on my experiences with ground stacking other "brand you've heard of" line arrays, but likely still applies here. YMMV

EDIT: Addition of example photo from L'Acoustics VDOSC operator manual.

Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Randy Pence on January 25, 2017, 03:55:44 PM
Some things I've learned doing EDM shows...
1) They want LOTS of bass.  Not necessarily deep bass, but chest pounding 50Hz - 130Hz bass.  I typically put LPF higher for EDM shows on my TH118,  around 135Hz. As Tim said, lots of cones.
2) They want sound where the kids dance...right in the middle, in front of the stage.  No need to worry about even coverage or reaching the back of the room where few people hangout.  Comb filtering?  Won't know the difference with all that stuff in the air.
3) They want it loud.  The louder the better.  Don't worry about fidelity. 

I'm intimately familiar with SLS gears and still have a bunch of them.  As crazy as this may sound, the LS8800 would almost be too clean, too detailed.  No need for crystalline, palpitating highs from those gold ribbons with EDM crowd.  I roll off the mains at 8K so I don't get a headache from the DJs cranking EQs on their DJMs and Serratos.  Make sure to have limiters set on your amps/DSP.

Unless you'll be DJing, it's going to be a pretty easy night provided a fight doesn't break out.

The foundations of dance music DJ systems in the 70s and 80s included VHF drivers to include more detail for cymbals, female vocals, etc.  One can argue it was because compression drivers did not play particularly high and there were no cymbals in the booth, but the people who cared about sound knew the difference enough to bother with hanging separate tweeters above the dancefloor.  Dance music is big business and enough of the audiences are full of other djs and producers who know what capable near-field monitors sound like and would prefer that level of quality on a dancefloor

Yes, the sternum resonates higher in frequency, and while trivial to many rock guys, provides the "click" of sorts that audiences sync themselves together with.  However, by no means is playing lower underappreciated.

No, even coverage is desired as much as for a rock band.  The kids do not exclusively appreciate one style of music and not everyone cares to be bunched up in one particular area.

No, they do care about sound quality over volume.  One of the compliments of many a dj system is that the people on the floor can still have conversations with each other despite hearing all the detail of the music and the bass slamming.  Many performers bring out RME soundcards and other studio-grade gear to maintain sound quality.  If only volume was an issue, there wouldnt be gear from the best brands filling up the bigger events.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 25, 2017, 04:37:03 PM
I'm one of those guys who simply "doesn't get it" when it comes to electronic dance "music."  Don't get me wrong, we do EDM events and take a lot of pride in doing a good job on those shows, but from a personal standpoint I find little in the audio that is appealing after about 10 minutes.

Perhaps I'm too old (and my body won't tolerate the drugs necessary to make it interesting), but other than the people watching it's really a long ass, dull & deafening night for me.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 25, 2017, 05:09:42 PM
I'm one of those guys who simply "doesn't get it" when it comes to electronic dance "music."  Don't get me wrong, we do EDM events and take a lot of pride in doing a good job on those shows, but from a personal standpoint I find little in the audio that is appealing after about 10 minutes.

Perhaps I'm too old (and my body won't tolerate the drugs necessary to make it interesting), but other than the people watching it's really a long ass, dull & deafening night for me.
I feel the same way.

But sometimes there are brief moments of "WOW, that sounded exciting"

At one festival in the desert I was taking a nap (maybe 9 or 10pm) and I heard something "different" coming out of the system.

So I got up to get into the crowd and listen.

It was really interesting how the DJ was "abusing" the system.

And that has been the only time I was actually interested in listening to the music.

Yes the "people watching" can be interesting and enjoyable.

I do love how easy (non existent) the swapovers are.

And the crowds have been the best behaved shows I have done-besides classical and jazz event.

Overall it is a pretty easy gig
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Steve Eudaly on January 25, 2017, 05:37:57 PM
It was really interesting how the DJ was "abusing" the system.

I hope you don't mind if I steal that to use on certain BEs.

"Hey man, that was really interesting how you abused the system tonight."
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: John Rutirasiri on January 25, 2017, 05:46:17 PM
No direct experience with the SLS boxes in question, but I'd argue against ground stacking any line array with all zero angles.

I have experiences with SLS boxes, which is why I advise against any articulation on the 8800 when ground stacked.  The primary reason is stability.  They are very light boxes but not very deep --  most of the weight is in the front, and the boxes sit at the very front of the fly bar.  When you start angling the top boxes downward as in your diagram, you are altering the fulcrum point of that stack.  The flybar does not lock onto the subs -- he has to use straps.   If you've done EDM shows, you know that nothing is safe...people climb if they can, and things can get out of control rather fast. 

As for acoustics, the SLS boxes do not really have any vertical dispersion beyond the mid-high crossover freq.  The HF vertical dispersion is the "height" of the stack.  You have to listen to them to understand -- this is the characteristic of the ribbon drivers.  They do not behave like normal line array cabinets which have some degree of vertical dispersion.  Aiming the top cabinet down when you can't get the stack high enough (I believe OP said he has 4 per side) may not get him enough coverage for the dance area when the it's packed.

John R.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 25, 2017, 07:37:40 PM
I hope you don't mind if I steal that to use on certain BEs.

"Hey man, that was really interesting how you abused the system tonight."
I don't know any other way to describe the sound.

It was not as if he cranked the level and was overdriving it, but rather some unique sounds.  I was not concerned about any damage and it wasn't as if it was distortion.

I actually found it entertaining, and was kinda sad that I didn't get up earlier so I could listen more.

But that was just one DJ.  None of the others have had me intrigued like he did.

Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Steve Eudaly on January 25, 2017, 10:34:14 PM
I have experiences with SLS boxes, which is why I advise against any articulation on the 8800 when ground stacked.  The primary reason is stability.  They are very light boxes but not very deep --  most of the weight is in the front, and the boxes sit at the very front of the fly bar.  When you start angling the top boxes downward as in your diagram, you are altering the fulcrum point of that stack.  The flybar does not lock onto the subs -- he has to use straps.   If you've done EDM shows, you know that nothing is safe...people climb if they can, and things can get out of control rather fast. 

As for acoustics, the SLS boxes do not really have any vertical dispersion beyond the mid-high crossover freq.  The HF vertical dispersion is the "height" of the stack.  You have to listen to them to understand -- this is the characteristic of the ribbon drivers.  They do not behave like normal line array cabinets which have some degree of vertical dispersion.  Aiming the top cabinet down when you can't get the stack high enough (I believe OP said he has 4 per side) may not get him enough coverage for the dance area when the it's packed.

John R.

Well, I do have experience with SLS boxes, just not those (they're headquartered not 15 minutes from our shop), and yes I have experienced exactly what you're describing about the vertical dispersion. A venue I work has some of the 1290 wedges and they are very unforgiving when you step forward or backward out of their pattern (great for seated players, though--a certain famous banjo player was a big fan, but he didn't move from his chair. :D).

The same venue also has a mono 14 box hang of SLS LS7500s. It is a fixed installation, so I don't have the luxury of experimenting with the deployment to see what happens, but as you mentioned, when you're out of the vertical dispersion of the bottom box HF, you know it.

That being said I feel like that's all the more reason to give the array some downward curvature otherwise it seems you really are just creating a laser beam of HF energy shooting over the crowd's ears.

However I completely agree with you on the safety side. If you were to try a deployment that gives you "downward coverage," you need to have a very good method of keeping the array safely on its feet. No quality of sound is worth sacrificing safety.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Randy Pence on January 26, 2017, 06:45:19 AM
I'm one of those guys who simply "doesn't get it" when it comes to electronic dance "music."  Don't get me wrong, we do EDM events and take a lot of pride in doing a good job on those shows, but from a personal standpoint I find little in the audio that is appealing after about 10 minutes.

Perhaps I'm too old (and my body won't tolerate the drugs necessary to make it interesting), but other than the people watching it's really a long ass, dull & deafening night for me.

A broad range of sounds is classified under that term.  Does bluegrass sound like metal?  They both use guitars.

Unfortunately, like rock, much of it is not exactly inspiring and I would venture that the better stuff does not come through larger events in smaller midwestern areas.  Chicago, Detroit, New York are its spiritual roots, with a very healthy connection to many different european regions as the US at large took a long time to get into the idea of long nights of dancing.  It is difficult to describe the difference, but my impression living in europe is that old people still want to show that they can move, while young people in the US are already afraid to show they can.  Then there is the whole racial and sexual segregation history difference between the two continents.  The bigger names I've seen in this forum are not what I'd consider good music

Do you like danceable r&b? Motown?  Funk?  Disco?  New Wave?  Instrumental music? If not, it'll probably never be your thing.  I was bopping along to the likes of madonna as a kid in the 80s and was fascinated by the sound design of the instruments before I got old enough for any sort of event.  FWIW, it took me until my 20s before I appreciated the sound of an electric guitar as the hair bands and grunge turned me off. 

May I suggest trying this song?  Detroit, vocals, guaranteed not to need drugs to get the gist of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmg_DtZ0Scw

detroit, instrumental

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0f96HQbCY4

As for drugs go, Bill Hicks put it best that much of our favorite musicians, writers, and artists have used them.  It is a natural human curiosity to explore alternate states, and actually not limited to humans.  A variety of other animals will seek out fermented fruit, for example.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 26, 2017, 11:15:45 AM
A broad range of sounds is classified under that term.  Does bluegrass sound like metal?  They both use guitars.

Unfortunately, like rock, much of it is not exactly inspiring and I would venture that the better stuff does not come through larger events in smaller midwestern areas.  Chicago, Detroit, New York are its spiritual roots, with a very healthy connection to many different european regions as the US at large took a long time to get into the idea of long nights of dancing.  It is difficult to describe the difference, but my impression living in europe is that old people still want to show that they can move, while young people in the US are already afraid to show they can.  Then there is the whole racial and sexual segregation history difference between the two continents.  The bigger names I've seen in this forum are not what I'd consider good music

Do you like danceable r&b? Motown?  Funk?  Disco?  New Wave?  Instrumental music? If not, it'll probably never be your thing.  I was bopping along to the likes of madonna as a kid in the 80s and was fascinated by the sound design of the instruments before I got old enough for any sort of event.  FWIW, it took me until my 20s before I appreciated the sound of an electric guitar as the hair bands and grunge turned me off. 

May I suggest trying this song?  Detroit, vocals, guaranteed not to need drugs to get the gist of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmg_DtZ0Scw

detroit, instrumental

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0f96HQbCY4

As for drugs go, Bill Hicks put it best that much of our favorite musicians, writers, and artists have used them.  It is a natural human curiosity to explore alternate states, and actually not limited to humans.  A variety of other animals will seek out fermented fruit, for example.

Hi Randy-

It's mostly that I find very little in EDM that connects with me the way that more traditional musical forms do.  I don't have any social or political issues with the genre or the vast majority of folks who perform at or attend EDM events.

I think my early exploration of electronic music creation - I remember Morton Subotnick - left me content in understanding the range of sonic possibilities and led to my involvement in early mulitrack overdubbing, tape loops and physical splicing for sound creation.  Perhaps, in a way, that sated my curiosity in such things.

Today I hear little EDM in performance that makes me want to move to that performance, unlike the way Motown or rock can.  I suspect that's a result of my birth date more than anything else, but I still feel a connection that is missing in much of EDM.

Altering ones state of consciousness is as old as humanity, I think, and creative people have fewer hangups about applying substances specifically for the purpose of finding a new or enhanced creative experience (or just for the hell of it).  From my youthful observations and experiences I don't think it is wise for my body to alter my consciousness to the point I can find a connection to most EDM.  That's just me, and others should decide for themselves what is physically or emotionally appropriate.

Your comments about the guitar are ones I can identify with to some extent.  I think both the hair band era (and that's when I was on the bus as a BE) and grunge were controlled largely by the commercial interests that delivered the music and resulted in a lack of musical exploration that ended up narrowly defining what the electric guitar should sound like.  There were some great players making successful but uninspired music.  I think I need to dig out some Ronnie Montrose or Larry Carlton vinyl and regress back to the good old days... 💪

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on January 26, 2017, 11:16:02 AM
Earlier in this thread, there was discussion about the effect of non-driven subs on driven sub measurements.

If it helps, here's a pair of Orbit Shifters indoors, side by side.
I close mic'ed one of them, with its neighbor shorted, then left open.
The red is shorted, blue open.

As you can see, both curves have the same shape; it almost looks like they could be the same, only with smoothing applied to the red 'shorted' trace.  But both were taken at 1/24th, 10 sec avg, no HP or LP.


Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Michael Gorecki on January 26, 2017, 11:57:31 AM
I have experiences with SLS boxes, which is why I advise against any articulation on the 8800 when ground stacked.  The primary reason is stability.  They are very light boxes but not very deep --  most of the weight is in the front, and the boxes sit at the very front of the fly bar.  When you start angling the top boxes downward as in your diagram, you are altering the fulcrum point of that stack.  The flybar does not lock onto the subs -- he has to use straps.   If you've done EDM shows, you know that nothing is safe...people climb if they can, and things can get out of control rather fast. 

As for acoustics, the SLS boxes do not really have any vertical dispersion beyond the mid-high crossover freq.  The HF vertical dispersion is the "height" of the stack.  You have to listen to them to understand -- this is the characteristic of the ribbon drivers.  They do not behave like normal line array cabinets which have some degree of vertical dispersion.  Aiming the top cabinet down when you can't get the stack high enough (I believe OP said he has 4 per side) may not get him enough coverage for the dance area when the it's packed.

John R.

So I've worked with a couple other arrays where we have added a negative angle to the bottom box. Most of the time this done by adding a 2X4 under the backside of the fly bar and securing the array frame with straps. The only thing that worries me is if the front of the frame starts to slide. The area in front of the speakers will be barricaded but I don't know how far in front of the speakers. I'd imagine it will still be close enough that if the speakers fell they would land in the audience.

But I am partial to the idea of a negative angle if it can be achieved safely. I do have 20 of the 8800 boxes but I didn't feel it was very safe or adding much to the coverage area to stack much higher. The subs are 60" when stacked 3 high so the bottom box is essentially a front fill.

I'm going to bring some extra 8800 boxes for the load in and see if I can come up with a way to safely deploy the boxes in a better configuration. This should turn into a series of shows if they're happy with the results. So I'm trying to make sure I've got enough rig for the gig.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 26, 2017, 12:11:40 PM
Earlier in this thread, there was discussion about the effect of non-driven subs on driven sub measurements.

If it helps, here's a pair of Orbit Shifters indoors, side by side.
I close mic'ed one of them, with its neighbor shorted, then left open.
The red is shorted, blue open.

As you can see, both curves have the same shape; it almost looks like they could be the same, only with smoothing applied to the red 'shorted' trace.  But both were taken at 1/24th, 10 sec avg, no HP or LP.
It would be better to mic at a distance (1-2M) because when you are close miced, the level from that cabinet will be much louder (due to distance) than the other cabinet.

I would put the mic in the center of the cabinets so the "influence" would be equal.

So the level of interaction would not be as great (when close miced) as it would be at normal distances.

It would be a good idea to measure the differences with both cabinets driven.  Sometimes there are differences in output of even the same model cabinet-so that could influence the outcome.

It would also be good to get a measurement with the second cabinet removed from the room, and don't move the mic.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 26, 2017, 12:23:27 PM
It would be better to mic at a distance (1-2M) because when you are close miced, the level from that cabinet will be much louder (due to distance) than the other cabinet.

I would put the mic in the center of the cabinets so the "influence" would be equal.

So the level of interaction would not be as great (when close miced) as it would be at normal distances.

It would be a good idea to measure the differences with both cabinets driven.  Sometimes there are differences in output of even the same model cabinet-so that could influence the outcome.

It would also be good to get a measurement with the second cabinet removed from the room, and don't move the mic.

You beat me to it, Ivan.

Mark, this is some of the "experience" thing that I often mention when discussing measurement.  You made a measurement that was mostly invalid for the purpose.  For another purpose it might have been the perfect measurement!

The method Ivan describes, WRT to distance and placement of the measurement mic, I have observed first hand with measuring subs indoors.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on January 26, 2017, 01:14:01 PM
You beat me to it, Ivan.

Mark, this is some of the "experience" thing that I often mention when discussing measurement.  You made a measurement that was mostly invalid for the purpose.  For another purpose it might have been the perfect measurement!

The method Ivan describes, WRT to distance and placement of the measurement mic, I have observed first hand with measuring subs indoors.

Thx Tim, thx Ivan, good points...

My idea was to show the base effect, as room independent as possible, of how two subs next to each other in this situation, can behave.
I wanted the room, and measurements at any one particular location out in the room, removed from the equation. I really try to isolate variables, one step at a time.

It makes sense to me, for this purpose of establishing a base, that the mic go centered between the boxes.   I still think for this purpose it would be better to close mic, wouldn't it?

Once I have a base, then sure, mic  out into the room, and the further step of removing box from room if interest continues, ...as you suggested.....

But sorry to say I can't continue here with further suggested steps....the reason I took these meas today is I've started a new round of system tuning from ground up (got some new processing capability, yea), and needed to take a sub meas. Figured why not side step a little and make a meas folks might be interested in.

PS...to both....thanks for adding experience  :)
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 26, 2017, 01:49:51 PM
Thx Tim, thx Ivan, good points...

My idea was to show the base effect, as room independent as possible, of how two subs next to each other in this situation, can behave.
I wanted the room, and measurements at any one particular location out in the room, removed from the equation. I really try to isolate variables, one step at a time.

It makes sense to me, for this purpose of establishing a base, that the mic go centered between the boxes.   I still think for this purpose it would be better to close mic, wouldn't it?

Once I have a base, then sure, mic  out into the room, and the further step of removing box from room if interest continues, ...as you suggested.....

But sorry to say I can't continue here with further suggested steps....the reason I took these meas today is I've started a new round of system tuning from ground up (got some new processing capability, yea), and needed to take a sub meas. Figured why not side step a little and make a meas folks might be interested in.

PS...to both....thanks for adding experience  :)

The issue is you're measuring up close, when the real action is happening in the acoustic coupling between resonant volumes.

You're looking at tree bark when you want to see the grove of trees.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on January 26, 2017, 02:33:22 PM
The issue is you're measuring up close, when the real action is happening in the acoustic coupling between resonant volumes.

You're looking at tree bark when you want to see the grove of trees.

Hi Tim, pls help me out...

I can't see any difference in acoustic coupling, between near field and far field, at 100Hz of less?    Is this is where I missing the grove..?

edit:  Ok, pls nevermind. 
I went and tried the instructions except for moving extra sub out of room. 
Moving the mic to centered between cabs definitely made a difference...smoothed out the jaggedness in ' open ' meas posted above.
Live and learn, and say thanks ...

My room is too small to allow any meaningful meas 2 meters out...room was clearly dominating...



Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 26, 2017, 03:18:08 PM
Hi Tim, pls help me out...

I can't see any difference in acoustic coupling, between near field and far field, at 100Hz of less?    Is this is where I missing the grove..?

That's part of it, yes.  The other part is about up-close measurement of subs, something Ivan has written about before, but in a nutshell - very close measurement of subwoofers does not give accurate results.  In general the minimum distance between mic & source is 3x the longest dimension of the enclosure face (the diagonal measurement).
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on January 26, 2017, 07:31:55 PM
That's part of it, yes.  The other part is about up-close measurement of subs, something Ivan has written about before, but in a nutshell - very close measurement of subwoofers does not give accurate results.  In general the minimum distance between mic & source is 3x the longest dimension of the enclosure face (the diagonal measurement).

Thank you.   
Good to learn about the minimum 3x longest dimension technique. 
I'm guessing that applies for banks of subs as well? 
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 26, 2017, 09:50:00 PM
Thank you.   
Good to learn about the minimum 3x longest dimension technique. 
I'm guessing that applies for banks of subs as well?
Yes.

Whenever cabinets are next to each other they start to influence each other.

Back in the old days when they had HI-fi stores, they would put the speaker they wanted to push in the middle of the pile.

The added boundary of the other speakers would make the one in the middle have more bass-because the others were acting as a boundary.
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 26, 2017, 09:53:25 PM
Close miking has its place.

I do it all the time-when I am looking for specific things in specific places.

But you cannot get the "whole picture" that way.

Think of a simple 2 way cabinet (woofer and horn).

If you "close mic" you are going to get all kinds of different responses depending on where you put the mic.

There is NO position that will give you any sort of a "total picture".

You MUST get away from it so that the closeness of the mic to the source is more even between the 2 sound producing elements
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Randy Pence on January 28, 2017, 01:01:40 PM
Hi Randy-

It's mostly that I find very little in EDM that connects with me the way that more traditional musical forms do.  I don't have any social or political issues with the genre or the vast majority of folks who perform at or attend EDM events.

I think my early exploration of electronic music creation - I remember Morton Subotnick - left me content in understanding the range of sonic possibilities and led to my involvement in early mulitrack overdubbing, tape loops and physical splicing for sound creation.  Perhaps, in a way, that sated my curiosity in such things.

Today I hear little EDM in performance that makes me want to move to that performance, unlike the way Motown or rock can.  I suspect that's a result of my birth date more than anything else, but I still feel a connection that is missing in much of EDM.

Altering ones state of consciousness is as old as humanity, I think, and creative people have fewer hangups about applying substances specifically for the purpose of finding a new or enhanced creative experience (or just for the hell of it).  From my youthful observations and experiences I don't think it is wise for my body to alter my consciousness to the point I can find a connection to most EDM.  That's just me, and others should decide for themselves what is physically or emotionally appropriate.

Your comments about the guitar are ones I can identify with to some extent.  I think both the hair band era (and that's when I was on the bus as a BE) and grunge were controlled largely by the commercial interests that delivered the music and resulted in a lack of musical exploration that ended up narrowly defining what the electric guitar should sound like.  There were some great players making successful but uninspired music.  I think I need to dig out some Ronnie Montrose or Larry Carlton vinyl and regress back to the good old days... 💪

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc

different strokes.  it was finally sonic youth and velvet underground which tipped me over edge to appreciate guitar stuff.

I'm hoping age can be left out of it.  There is plenty of music decades older than me which I can get into, and there is plenty of new stuff which I love.  Pop and hip hop peaked for me in the 90s.  Autotune has not been a very inspiring addition to music.  As stated before, what most of you are exposed to dance-music wise, is quite limited, but fair enough if one is not into resonant filters and fairly consistent kickdrum patterns
Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Jay Barracato on January 28, 2017, 02:27:58 PM
I think all edm fans should be made to sit through all of metal machine music at concert levels.

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Title: Re: Mixing different types of subs
Post by: Randy Pence on January 28, 2017, 02:34:00 PM
I think all edm fans should be made to sit through all of metal machine music at concert levels.

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id rather listen to that than coldplay or linkin park at any volume level