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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Debbie Dunkley on December 06, 2017, 11:41:03 PM
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The band is playing a downtown show NYE and I have agreed for a fee to allow the DJ to play out the night through my system.
As the band comes off stage, the DJ will take over. I was going to patch the DJ mixer into a stereo channel of my mixer so it will be a seamless changeover. That way I can continue to have master control.
I contacted the DJ - left a message to ask what outputs he has on his mixer but he hasn't returned my call. I got his number from the promoter so he knows I tried to reach out.
So I'm just going to turn up with what I have and if he needs something different then that is down to him.
Most DJ mixers I have come across use either XLR or RCA outs. So I'll be using 2 x XLR > TR, or 2 x RCA > TR cords as my stereo ins are TR L & R line ins. Any other combinations it could be?
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That will cover it, either XLR or RCA outs. If you use aux fed subs don't forget to put them in the mix. Having "executive control" in your mixer is the smart way to handle DJ's. He may want a monitor if he is a mix DJ so if you have a powered wedge that will work. Monitor outs on DJ mixers are either 1/4" TRS on the pro mixers or RCA on some all-in-one units.
Edit - It isn't a bad idea to have a 1:1 isolation transformer in between his equipment and yours. That prevents phantom power from blowing up his equipment and will eliminate most buzzes that might be present with his setup.
I use an ART isolation transformer (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&O=&Q=&c3api=1876%2C72666209402%2C%2C&gclid=CjwKCAiAx57RBRBkEiwA8yZdUM65-nrdDTCAP-tXjE8q0raGZ3kGUslbcFi7-y0fczWUyBMP30e7IBoCwigQAvD_BwE&is=REG&pcur=CAD&sku=381596). It also converts all the possible outputs and inputs so it is a nice problem solver when they show up with something weird.
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I always connect a DJ desk with DIs. Gives me my isolation.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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Cool - thanks peeps... I have a stereo/dual mono DI that accepts either 1/4" or RCA so that will do the trick !
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I'd be prepared for xlr or trs outputs. XLR for the mains, trs for the booth. A quad box or two for ac should give them enough Edison outlets. Also, transformers can saturate causing audible distortion before the DJ clips their mixer. I don't use a DI or transformer isolated splits on DJ's anymore.
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A DI is safe but it's unnecessary if you're not connecting to mic inputs. I connect the DJ mixer/console from an unbalanced output.. either 1/4 unbalanced or RCA to a stereo input on my mixer, and if you want to avoid the extra gain of the DJs master output section which is enough to overdrive any mixer input, connect to the record output. If the DJ requests a monitor he/she will want it connected directly to his console, this will be used for beat syncing the next track so they need direct control of it, but in my experience just about any powered speaker will do the trick.. a DJ I work with regularly uses a Behringer B208D while others have gladly used a provided EV ZXL12p or QSC K12.
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If the DJ requests a monitor he/she will want it connected directly to his console, this will be used for beat syncing the next track so they need direct control of it, but in my experience just about any powered speaker will do the trick..
HOWEVER... one thing I like to do is take the DJ Booth Monitor outputs, land them on a pair of channels on the FOH console, and then patch back to the booth monitors. This does two things: a) Allows you to monitor and maintain control of the DJ Booth Monitor levels, and b) Gives you the ability to patch MC mics into the DJ Booth Monitors, that you couldn't otherwise do if the DJ Booth Monitor Outputs from their mixer are going straight into their Booth Monitor speakers.
-Ray
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b) Gives you the ability to patch MC mics into the DJ Booth Monitors, that you couldn't otherwise do if the DJ Booth Monitor Outputs from their mixer are going straight into their Booth Monitor speakers.
That's a good point. On the DJM nexus 900, even if the DJ patches a mic into his own mixer to make announcements, the mic output only goes to FOH and not the monitor outs by default. You have to reboot the mixer and get into the config settings to change that. Neither me nor the DJ I was working with knew how to do that without the manual. That may or may not be a problem. In my case the DJ wanted to rap over top of his beats so he really needed the mic in his monitors.
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I'd be prepared for xlr or trs outputs. XLR for the mains, trs for the booth. A quad box or two for ac should give them enough Edison outlets. Also, transformers can saturate causing audible distortion before the DJ clips their mixer. I don't use a DI or transformer isolated splits on DJ's anymore.
I use transformer-based DI boxes all the time, so decided to measure one to see what happens when you try to saturate one. It was 10v RMS at 20Hz input before distortion levels started to rise, and that was to around 1%. At lower levels, they're clean, linear, and there's nothing to break. The ones I use aren't particularly expensive, but do the job well. There's also a -20dB pad, so then you'd be able to put a whole lot more in there.
Since we've no idea what the DJ will be bringing, having the option to flick a switch and get a ground lift is very useful IMO. If it was mine, I'd assign 5x channels to the DJ to do it "properly". Mic, 2x main feed, 2x monitor feed. You could get it down to 3 by putting the mic through the DJ desk and going mono for the monitors.
Set your input gain conservatively, unless you've had a conversation with the DJ at sound-check, and you know that's the most signal they're going to send.
Chris
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Cool - thanks peeps... I have a stereo/dual mono DI that accepts either 1/4" or RCA so that will do the trick !
That will work, I support lots of touring DJs, Have a monitor setup for them also, and they will need a couple of AC outlets too, and a mic on a stand probably.
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That will work, I support lots of touring DJs, Have a monitor setup for them also, and they will need a couple of AC outlets too, and a mic on a stand probably.
Depending on how megalomaniac they are, and they usually are, I've sometimes used a compressor with a very long release to keep a hold over level.
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Again - thanks everyone for all your suggestions.
All I was asked for were my main PA speakers - nothing else, so although I will obviously have mics, stands and a wedge monitor available, I don't believe they will be required.
I can assign the DJ up to 3 stereo ins and a couple of mono channels if necessary.
If in fact he does require a wedge, what about just sending it out through one of the mono auxes just like I would foldback for band use??
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Debbie,
Set LIMITERS on your system.
Scott
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... what about just sending it out through one of the mono auxes just like I would foldback for band use??
Don't do that. The DJ has his own volume-knob for the booth (=DJ speak for monitor), and wants to adjust the volume constantly how he/she sees fit. Just plug the wedge in the booth out of the DJ mixer.
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Good for you for charging a fee. ;)
Keep an eye on the DJ's mixer. Tell the DJ to keep it out of the red. They aren't happy unless it's maxed out. You will soon get into the all too common DJ/Sound person battle....The more you turn your gains down the more they will turn up their mixer. Next thing you know they are all the way up and sounds like crap.
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Like some others, I also prefer to have an ISO transformer inline, as well as a 20dB pad per channel.
Don’t forget the earplugs!
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Don't do that. The DJ has his own volume-knob for the booth (=DJ speak for monitor), and wants to adjust the volume constantly how he/she sees fit. Just plug the wedge in the booth out of the DJ mixer.
+1. This kind of DJ doesn't use a monitor the way a band does, they are using it for beat syncing so the main priority is to keep latency to a minimum. If you pay attention you will see the DJ put a headphone over one ear and then turn up the monitor which is pointed at the other ear, the track being cued is in the phones and the track currently playing is in the monitor, and once they get the sync they want the monitor is turned down again.
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Don't do that. The DJ has his own volume-knob for the booth (=DJ speak for monitor), and wants to adjust the volume constantly how he/she sees fit. Just plug the wedge in the booth out of the DJ mixer.
Nice and easy but then how do I control how much volume he puts through the wedge? Presumably he will be less inclined to blow his own eardrums??
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Just went through my boxes of miscellaneous cables and stuff.
I found 2 30ft NICE TRS cables if he is 1/4" out, I found 2 x 6ft heavy duty RCA cables. I also have my Rolls stereo DI which accepts RCA or 1/4", and I have a box that although it was bought as a 'hum eliminator' it works well as a patch box converting male/female XLR to 1/4" and vice versa. I'll just take everything with me.
BTW... the RCA cables are the type that have 3 cables together - usually L & R audio and one video. There isn't any difference between those and the single RCA cables is there? I have the standard RCA cables but they are not as heavy duty as these.
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Nice and easy but then how do I control how much volume he puts through the wedge? Presumably he will be less inclined to blow his own eardrums??
That's why I suggest bringing the Booth Monitor outputs into your board, and back to the wedges. So, you'll have 4 channels (DJ Master L-R, DJ Booth L-R) on your board. Only the DJ Master L-R will be up and in your system; the faders on the DJ Booth L-R will remain down. You just send *those* to the aux send to the DJ Booth Monitor wedge. This way, the DJ still has control over their DJ Booth Monitor send, and can turn it up/down/off as needed, but you maintain supervision and control over that feed. This will allow you to protect your gear!
-Ray
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That's why I suggest bringing the Booth Monitor outputs into your board, and back to the wedges. So, you'll have 4 channels (DJ Master L-R, DJ Booth L-R) on your board. Only the DJ Master L-R will be up and in your system; the faders on the DJ Booth L-R will remain down. You just send *those* to the aux send to the DJ Booth Monitor wedge. This way, the DJ still has control over their DJ Booth Monitor send, and can turn it up/down/off as needed, but you maintain supervision and control over that feed. This will allow you to protect your gear!
-Ray
OK.. sorry Ray, I missed the 'booth out first' part when I was reading the comments. So booth out into 2 channels ( or another stereo channel) and then aux out to wedge. This will still help with the latency referenced here?
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The latency is negligible at best. (Same as any other stage wedge.) This is how I *always* set up DJ rigs.
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As the wedge is mono, will the booth out have a mono option do you think? Seems silly to use 2 cables and 2 channels.
However, I do have another stereo input plus some channel inputs if I need to use them. It's just the cables I might not have if it is RCA again - darn, this should be down to the DJ - not me.
I have all the cables I need - at what point does he get to take some responsibility?. He's probably earning more than I am that night anyway....I digress......
Do I need to use another couple of DI boxes for the booth outs?
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Just went through my boxes of miscellaneous cables and stuff.
I found 2 30ft NICE TRS cables if he is 1/4" out, I found 2 x 6ft heavy duty RCA cables. I also have my Rolls stereo DI which accepts RCA or 1/4", and I have a box that although it was bought as a 'hum eliminator' it works well as a patch box converting male/female XLR to 1/4" and vice versa. I'll just take everything with me.
BTW... the RCA cables are the type that have 3 cables together - usually L & R audio and one video. There isn't any difference between those and the single RCA cables is there? I have the standard RCA cables but they are not as heavy duty as these.
I have a Rolls DB14 that I have used to put playback into a mixer and it monos it out. I checked it with SMAART and found that it has a relatively steep roll off stating at 150hz. I don’t know how flat the one you have is but be careful, you wouldn’t want to roll the bass of like that for a DJ.
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Depends on what his mixer/controller outputs. Most standalone mixers (DJM-series) have 1/4" outputs. So, I built an 8-channel DJ Patch Snake for this-- 50' of multicore, pair each of 1/4" F-XLR (for DJ Master Out) and M-XLR (for DJ Booth Returns for powered speakers) on one end, and all XLR on the other end to land on a console/stage box in the right orientation. Bit of colored heat shrink to color code the channels (blue for left, red for right) and then p-touch labels under clear heat shrink for actual channel labels makes for a quick and easy setup.
If you have a second set of DIs for booth outs to take either 1/4" or RCA, that's going to be the safest way to be prepared. I've never seen a DJ mixer/controller with XLR for booth monitor outputs.
Get some cheap F-RCA to Male-1/4" plugs (http://www.audiopile.net/CC-303), so you can short-length-RCA from mixer to your DIs, and then XLR to the console/snake.
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A DI is safe but it's unnecessary if you're not connecting to mic inputs....
I respectfully disagree.
I always isolate my rig from DJs , Band recorders & Video folk. I can never know what they might do, the condition of their gear, or how they power stuff.
Not blowing up my gear!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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Depends on what his mixer/controller outputs. Most standalone mixers (DJM-series) have 1/4" outputs. So, I built an 8-channel DJ Patch Snake for this-- 50' of multicore, pair each of 1/4" F-XLR (for DJ Master Out) and M-XLR (for DJ Booth Returns for powered speakers) on one end, and all XLR on the other end to land on a console/stage box in the right orientation. Bit of colored heat shrink to color code the channels (blue for left, red for right) and then p-touch labels under clear heat shrink for actual channel labels makes for a quick and easy setup.
If you have a second set of DIs for booth outs to take either 1/4" or RCA, that's going to be the safest way to be prepared. I've never seen a DJ mixer/controller with XLR for booth monitor outputs.
Get some cheap F-RCA to Male-1/4" plugs (http://www.audiopile.net/CC-303), so you can short-length-RCA from mixer to your DIs, and then XLR to the console/snake.
My stereo ins are 1/4" on the console (just to complicate things)
but both my analog drop snakes are XLR/ 1/4" combo inputs and XLR outs. So I would have to convert the outputs if I use the stereo ins on the console. Won't have to convert if I use mono channel inputs.
Regarding your advice to use DI's for the booth outs too : I will use my stereo/dual mono DI box for FOH L & R and that conveniently has RCA/ 1/4" inputs.
However my other 2 DI boxes have only 1/4" inputs but fortunately I have RCA > 1/4" adaptors I can use on that RCA cable.
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Well crap ..... I just double checked and it's my 50ft 16 channel snake that has the combo inputs - my 25ft and 30ft 8 channel snakes ( that I would prefer to use) do not - just XLR. Oh boy ......I gotta simplify this somehow. Sounds like the routing is simple but its the frickin' cable types that are getting in the way- LOL
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As the wedge is mono, will the booth out have a mono option do you think? Seems silly to use 2 cables and 2 channels.
However, I do have another stereo input plus some channel inputs if I need to use them. It's just the cables I might not have if it is RCA again - darn, this should be down to the DJ - not me.
If the DJ uses DJM900 then there is a mono/stereo switch but unfortunately this will affect all outputs (Master, rec and booth).
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OK so......
DJ mixer L R out > stereo DI box (either RCA>RCA or 1/4">1/4" as box can accommodate both) > snake XLR in > XLR/ 1/4" adaptor to console stereo line ins.
Booth L R out > 2x DI boxes (OK if 1/4" outs on DJ mixer but if RCA will use RCA to 1/4" adaptor) >snake XLR in > XLR/ 1/4" adaptor to console.
If this is it, then all I have to do is make sure I have 4 RCA to 1/4" adaptors. yes???
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When you're dealing with mobile DJs mixers have never been less standardized than they are now. At clubs you'll usually find industry standards like the DJM900 or Xone92 but if it's a mobile DJ bringing out their gear I'd wager on it being a controller unless they're heavily invested. All but the top of the line controllers are going to have 1/4'' and RCA outs so I'd be prepared for that scenario and hope for the best.
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If the DJ uses DJM900 then there is a mono/stereo switch but unfortunately this will affect all outputs (Master, rec and booth).
I haven't tried on the original DJM900 but on the DJM900 NXS2 you can set the master, booth and record outs to be mono or stereo separately in the utility menu.
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So I'm just going to turn up with what I have and if he needs something different then that is down to him.
^ This. If he isn't a well known headlining DJ with a rider and is just playing out the rest of the night, plug a wedge or 2 direct into his booth outs and be done with it.
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I'm guessing they will be RCA or 1/4" too....if they are 1/4" outs from his mixer to the DI boxes... can they be TRS or must they be TS?
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^ This. If he isn't a well known headlining DJ with a rider and is just playing out the rest of the night, plug a wedge or 2 direct into his booth outs and be done with it.
I'm only going to have one wedge with me because the band is mainly iem ... so he'll have to make do with that. If he can't be bothered to return my call or reach out to me, then I don't know why I should be concerned.
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The band is playing a downtown show NYE and I have agreed for a fee to allow the DJ to play out the night through my system.
As the band comes off stage, the DJ will take over. I was going to patch the DJ mixer into a stereo channel of my mixer so it will be a seamless changeover. That way I can continue to have master control.
I contacted the DJ - left a message to ask what outputs he has on his mixer but he hasn't returned my call. I got his number from the promoter so he knows I tried to reach out.
So I'm just going to turn up with what I have and if he needs something different then that is down to him.
Most DJ mixers I have come across use either XLR or RCA outs. So I'll be using 2 x XLR > TR, or 2 x RCA > TR cords as my stereo ins are TR L & R line ins. Any other combinations it could be?
Whatever you are using for your band's FOH subs double them (and amps) for the DJ. 1. Use a DI box that has an attenuator example:dPDB dual passive direct box.
2. You will need a limiter (or two) in series on the DJ's channel.....
On a NYE DJ'd sound gig three years ago the DJ kept clipping
(in the red) his mixer despite my advise.
I was using a Mixwiz and by the end of the night I had his channel's PAD engaged, TRIM all the way off(!) and his signal was still in the yellow on my board.
I finally clamped him at the limiter on the DBX2231.
Give me a band to mix any day.
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Nice and easy but then how do I control how much volume he puts through the wedge? Presumably he will be less inclined to blow his own eardrums??
Debbie.. seriously.. these guys have filled your head with horror stories that simply don't apply here. You will be working with a wedding/corporate DJ not some prima dona superstar touring DJ/producer. This person is most likely used to running the whole event themselves which can include setup and operation of the whole PA system as well as being MC and will be just as concerned as you about producing good sound. You don't need to control his monitor(singular), and besides it'll be a self powered box right? It's got all the protection needed built in not that it will get used. I am now doing 80-100 corporate or wedding events a year with either a solo DJ or DJ/band combo and have not lost a single powered speaker yet. Yes you will need DIs in some cases but it will be more about eliminating a ground loop hum problem or isolating the DJ system from the phantom power you are using to drive condensers for the band.. depending how everything is connected. There have been lots of good suggestions for all kinds of what-if situations that may occur but I'm betting that this type event will be way easier and less stressful than what some here experience with other types of DJ performances.
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Any advice on where to set my limiter outputs on my QU Pac for both L & R and booth L & R? I don't usually have to worry too much about this kind of stuff.
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Debbie.. seriously.. these guys have filled your head with horror stories that simply don't apply here. You will be working with a wedding/corporate DJ not some prima dona superstar touring DJ/producer. This person is most likely used to running the whole event themselves which can include setup and operation of the whole PA system as well as being MC and will be just as concerned as you about producing good sound. You don't need to control his monitor(singular), and besides it'll be a self powered box right? It's got all the protection needed built in not that it will get used. I am now doing 80-100 corporate or wedding events a year with either a solo DJ or DJ/band combo and have not lost a single powered speaker yet. Yes you will need DIs in some cases but it will be more about eliminating a ground loop hum problem or isolating the DJ system from the phantom power you are using to drive condensers for the band.. depending how everything is connected. There have been lots of good suggestions for all kinds of what-if situations that may occur but I'm betting that this type event will be way easier and less stressful than what some here experience with other types of DJ performances.
Thanks Paul - that is good to hear ALTHOUGH I really appreciate all the input from those of you who have dealt with some of these scenarios.
I just checked my gear and I have all the cables and adaptors I need for any situation thrown at me on the night - YAY (or at least I hope I do ;) )
As long as those RCA's I have will work for me - Im good to go....
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Just put a mic right behind his mixer, pointed slightly down towards the master, and then play your own music thru an iPod.......
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Whatever you are using for your band's FOH subs double them (and amps) for the DJ. 1. Use a DI box that has an attenuator example:dPDB dual passive direct box.
2. You will need a limiter (or two) in series on the DJ's channel.....
On a NYE DJ'd sound gig three years ago the DJ kept clipping
(in the red) his mixer despite my advise.
I was using a Mixwiz and by the end of the night I had his channel's PAD engaged, TRIM all the way off(!) and his signal was still in the yellow on my board.
I finally clamped him at the limiter on the DBX2231.
Give me a band to mix any day.
Well I hope I have enough. The room is just under 4000q ft and I will be taking 2 x SRX818sp and 1 x SRX828sp for subs. I could add my 2 x PRX718xlf's too which do play well with the SRX from experience but I was hoping to get a way with just the SRX's. It is a hotel ballroom so I don't expect them to want deafening nightclub volume.
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I haven't tried on the original DJM900 but on the DJM900 NXS2 you can set the master, booth and record outs to be mono or stereo separately in the utility menu.
This seams to be correct. The "S2" (latest 900) version doesn't have the physical mono/stereo switch.
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Well I hope I have enough. The room is just under 4000q ft and I will be taking 2 x SRX818sp and 1 x SRX828sp for subs. I could add my 2 x PRX718xlf's too which do play well with the SRX from experience but I was hoping to get a way with just the SRX's. It is a hotel ballroom so I don't expect them to want deafening nightclub volume.
The crux of the biscuit... hotel ballroom. The hotel will likely have a limit of some kind (complaints, maybe a SPL policy).
If the DJ has done hotel gigs before you'll probably have fairly easy night once you're up and running. :)
The advice about separate Booth Monitor and PGM lines is spot on. As the DJ gets more exposure he'll start needing more in his monitors; your ability to nudge those back down if he's pushing your gear is a Very Good Thing. Trust me.
If the DJ has pro-grade gear with XLR outputs the signals are going to be astonishingly HOT by the standards we're used to.
{snip}
2. You will need a limiter (or two) in series on the DJ's channel.....
On a NYE DJ'd sound gig three years ago the DJ kept clipping
(in the red) his mixer despite my advise.
I was using a Mixwiz and by the end of the night I had his channel's PAD engaged, TRIM all the way off(!) and his signal was still in the yellow on my board.
I finally clamped him at the limiter on the DBX2231.
Give me a band to mix any day.
Okay, that's the bad news - isolating that level with a common passive DI is not going to work. The ART iso box previously mentioned is about the cheapest product that will take these levels. Will your DJ drive that hard?
Slightly better news - any unbalanced output is going to be -6dB below the balanced output. Using TS plugs in the Booth Mon outputs instead of TRS on each end... Or the RCA outputs which may be even lower in level.
The PRX subs won't substantially add to your output. If they do not fit you could omit but there might be some benefit to looking bigger. The client should have a room setup diagram to give you an idea of how much space is allocated to the entertainment.
As for inputs... here's what I'd do. SAVE your band's show file/snapshot/scene and start clean for the DJ. If you can "pair" 2 channels, do that for both the PGM and Booth inputs. If not it's a bit more work to match EQ or comp/limiters but it's not a big deal. This will let you make a mono mix of Booth L/R by sending one Aux for his wedge. Turn off the Booth channel assignment to the main L/R bus. Do whatever you need to and save it. Recall band, verify everything is working and do the show. Save band show/snapshot/scene if you normally do so, then recall the DJ show and away he goes (if you've had a sound check).
Being NYE, I'd expect the DJ will be there and set up in time for you to connect and check, but I'd build that DJ scene/snappy/show file ahead of time and have it in the mixer. You're ahead when you have a plan...
Other hint - if the QU inputs have pads, start out with them engaged. If you need pads later there isn't a really good way to engage them without getting the "WTF" look from the DJ or crowd.
Another Other hint - Most DJs have their own wireless mic (or a couple of them) which they will manage through their mixer but I like to have a hard-wired mic on a 50 ft cable stashed under/around the DJ table for the "just in case".
Congratulations, you're now a sound company!
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Other hint - if the QU inputs have pads, start out with them engaged. If you need pads later there isn't a really good way to engage them without getting the "WTF" look from the DJ or crowd.
+1
Good advise...
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Yes - VERY good advice all round Tim thanks.
Every show I do I have a basic scene saved in my console whether it is a band or anything else. I spend a good amount of time at home a couple of weeks before (hence my questions today) going through all the routing, dynamics, eq etc so I was going to do this for the DJ anyway. I already have the band scene set as always for them so should be a nice easy changeover there.
Use TS cables instead of TRS to get slightly lower level unless RCA - check.
I can make a mono send to the wedge by assigning the booth aux outs to the ALT outs on the QU and set them to L & R instead of LR. Then I only need to run one cable to the wedge from either output. That is how I usually get mono output on the QU - unless you see a disadvantage there. I could also run 2 cables by sending one to each channel of the one powered wedge - same result.
I won't bother with the PRX's - really not worried about setting them up just for looks.
The QU only has pads when using the D snake and I wasn't going to muddy the waters with that - the band will be using it and I don't want to have to think about any re assignments I would have to make to incorporate it. Also, it will be by the drums and I need to be ready to go as soon as the band leaves the stage. I was simply going to drop an analog snake next to the DJ. I'll just have to wind down those gains really well to start and hope he arrives nice and early like me!!!
EDIT - sorry forgot - set up a mic on a stand too.
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Though isolation has been covered, the Radial Iso Twin has saved me from serious problems several times. Twice I had a DJ's send me signal that lifting grounds on "standard DI's" didn't work with their unbalanced outputs, and just lifting grounds on the XLR sends still left huge noise problems. The Iso Twin solved the problems and handles a ton of signal level.
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What you need to keep an eye on is their levels while they use effects...Mostly controllers have built in effects which can change the sound drastically...
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Everything that's been said has brought up some nasty memories of my club days working with various DJ's. *shudder* This has still been a good refresher with some great tips.
As Tamar just mentioned, sweeping filters (flangers etc) used for effect can give you some surprises, I always had a channel limiter engaged and ready for sudden peaks. Really depends on the DJ's style.
As for all your effort and worry, in my experience, you won't hear from him (or her) until the day before the event, or sometimes hours before the event.
I almost always found XLR outputs for L/R (still pays to be prepared), but always ran the booth through the mixer. Ray's DJ Patch Snake sounds like a killer plan if you find yourself doing this again.
I too have suffered from the "gain-at-zero-pad-engaged-channel-still-clipping-mixwiz" scenario. I spoke to the DJ a number of times throughout the event about his levels, by the third time he clipped my channel I started turning down his wedge. Got his attention real quick. +1 on starting with the pads engaged, even more so if the mixer is tablet based since you won't be able to make a fast adjustment to the channel gain/trim and pad simultaneously, quickly and accurately enough to pull it off. Believe me, I've tried.
I once accidentally put my finger on the pad switch of a DJ channel (that was already engaged) and then had to spend the next 30 or so minutes standing there with my finger on it, since I knew the moment I let go the levels would shoot up. Not a single break in the music... One of those moments you see in the movies with land mines. You hear the click and you know what happens if you move your foot....so you don't.
Here's hoping he's(she's) a professional. Many are, and those are always refreshing.
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Debbie.. seriously.. these guys have filled your head with horror stories that simply don't apply here...
They are not horror stories; only experience. Make sure you "Believe" (tm) in your sub's abilities to protect themselves, or be sure you high pass them not lower than 40hz. If they want lower than 40hz, they must pay for that last octave.
(tm)
Serial Number85519307
Registration Number4578246
Word Mark BELIEVE
Status700 - Registered
Status Date2014-08-05
...Dennis
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They are not horror stories; only experience. Make sure you "Believe" (tm) in your sub's abilities to protect themselves, or be sure you high pass them not lower than 40hz. If they want lower than 40hz, they must pay for that last octave.
(tm)
Serial Number85519307
Registration Number4578246
Word Mark BELIEVE
Status700 - Registered
Status Date2014-08-05
...Dennis
I think Cher beat you to the Believe thing.....
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Yes - VERY good advice all round Tim thanks.
Every show I do I have a basic scene saved in my console whether it is a band or anything else. I spend a good amount of time at home a couple of weeks before (hence my questions today) going through all the routing, dynamics, eq etc so I was going to do this for the DJ anyway. I already have the band scene set as always for them so should be a nice easy changeover there.
Use TS cables instead of TRS to get slightly lower level unless RCA - check.
I can make a mono send to the wedge by assigning the booth aux outs to the ALT outs on the QU and set them to L & R instead of LR. Then I only need to run one cable to the wedge from either output. That is how I usually get mono output on the QU - unless you see a disadvantage there. I could also run 2 cables by sending one to each channel of the one powered wedge - same result.
I won't bother with the PRX's - really not worried about setting them up just for looks.
The QU only has pads when using the D snake and I wasn't going to muddy the waters with that - the band will be using it and I don't want to have to think about any re assignments I would have to make to incorporate it. Also, it will be by the drums and I need to be ready to go as soon as the band leaves the stage. I was simply going to drop an analog snake next to the DJ. I'll just have to wind down those gains really well to start and hope he arrives nice and early like me!!!
EDIT - sorry forgot - set up a mic on a stand too.
Put the DJ wedge on a stand about 2 feet behind him at ear/head height.
He will never have to crank the wedge that hard if it's within ear shot.
The key to anyone that is required to keep timing is their ability to hear.
I don't think it's necessary to run his mix through your mixer.
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You definitely need to protect your system
or do you believe in life after Subs?
thank you very much we'll be here all week
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Put the DJ wedge on a stand about 2 feet behind him at ear/head height.
He will never have to crank the wedge that hard if it's within ear shot.
The key to anyone that is required to keep timing is their ability to hear.
I don't think it's necessary to run his mix through your mixer.
You underestimate the hearing loss achieved by some DJs. Or, the attitude of "Since the knob CAN go all the way up, I WILL!"
My ability to survive the show with intact equipment is rooted in my insistence in *always* running that Booth Monitor feed through my console. I can see signs of the wedges being abused much easier that way. And again, being able to ALWAYS route MC mics into their mix is vital. (What if they need 4 wireless mics, and the mixer can only have two mics?)
-Ray
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As a DJ I've done a ton of these special event one-offs where the sound system is provided. When in conjunction with a band, I've always been placed on the side or back of the stage. The band throws me a couple of XLRs and I take it from there.
I've got my own mic and monitor, and run them from my controller/mixer. I know three other DJs in my area, and that's pretty standard - at least for around here. If the DJ hasn't checked in with you yet, I imagine he will if he needs anything else from you. And you really should talk to him if he's doing breaks and who's playing at midnight and all that kind of stuff.
Although four 18s would be a littie shy in a 4000' nightclub, it should be plenty for a hotel ballroom on NYE - especially considering the kind of mix for an event like this.
Although there are often DJ horror stories in this forum, I (and the guys I know who do this on a professional basis) treat any sound system we're placed on with respect, and don't push them beyond their limits. It's how we keep working.
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Although there are often DJ horror stories in this forum, I (and the guys I know who do this on a professional basis) treat any sound system we're placed on with respect, and don't push them beyond their limits. It's how we keep working.
And for those who weren't aware, I started my business as a DJ, so I definitely know how it is on that side of the aisle! In my opinion, tho, it takes very little extra time for me to setup the sound system like I do, and it offers plenty of "peace of mind" when accomplished!
Treat the DJ like any other band member who has an instrument/click track/playback bits.
-Ray
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a dj can mean almost anything these days, so why not just ask which mixer will be used and what kind of music will be played?
A few new years ago, i mixed a couple bands and then a dj came on. he played rare afrobeat stuff and didnt even use the monitor
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Put the DJ wedge on a stand about 2 feet behind him at ear/head height.
He will never have to crank the wedge that hard if it's within ear shot.
The key to anyone that is required to keep timing is their ability to hear.
I don't think it's necessary to run his mix through your mixer.
Some people are often surprised how loud some DJs will run the monitors.
Even when they are 4 or 5' away, having 4 2x18" subs pushed to the limit is not very unusual at all.
SPLs above 130dB C at their ears are pretty common-if you give them a system that can do that.
Not everybody will push it that hard, but many do.
As usual-it depends on the DJ and the system
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I will already have a powered wedge and a tripod with me anyway so if the DJ doesn't need it - no harm done.
Once the band comes off stage, the DJ takes over so there is no need to discuss who says what and when - its gonna be him playing at midnight.... after 11pm, the night is his responsibility.
I already reached out to him to get info and he has not yet called me back - I doubt he will so I just want to be prepared.
And last - I do not know this DJ from Adam so it will take me a matter of minutes to route his mixer through mine to protect my gear.
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the promoter should certainly know what kind of music the dj plays. Protecting the rig goes without saying, but this seems like building up a lot of stress which might be over nothing. What kind of music does the band play?
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Well, there might not be a promoter involved. Rather, an event/venue that hired Debbie's band to play for part of the evening, and a DJ to close the night.
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whichever entity was tasked with organizing talent and getting people to the venue is the promoter
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Here is a copy and paste with some editing of something I have posted before, regarding negative compression. This is a way to protect a speaker system from being over driven. I have played with this a little bit but I have never thoroughly tested this method under heavy usage so I don’t know if there are any other pitfalls. I guess this is theoretical at the moment.
To truly protect the speakers (in my opinion) you need negative compression. Like is found in a DBX160x. With negative compression you basically set how loud it will go and if more signal over the threshold is sent into the unit it will decrease the level not increase it. I guess it is sort of a ducker but not with a hard on off type of settings. Much smoother then ducking.
Negative compression would be a nice feature to have in a DSP (if properly implemented) if you need an idiot-proof protection of a system. The DBX 160 is a compressor that has the ability to do negative compression it is not a DSP. I would assume that a ducking circuit should also work if properly implemented.
The problem with the standard way (output limiting) of trying to protect a system is it limits the peaks. As the system is turned up you just keep losing dynamic range eventually getting to the point of increasing the overall power feed to the speakers and eventually causing them to fail. You just keep stuffing more into the bag until it bursts. Or in the case of speakers you burn up the voice coils. If the method I am suggesting is used, as you hit the point of maximum level to the speakers if someone tries to turn it up louder it will start going the other way, it will actually get softer the more it is turned up. It may not be a pleasant occurrence (won’t sound good when in protection) but it should protect the speakers from being blown up. And if you have enough rig for the gig you should never hit the protection. It is the only way I can think of that will with present technology that will protect a system from stupid misuse. Of course the problem is the protection device needs to be inaccessible. If this capability were to be built into the DSP then it could be locked down and protected from tampering.
And then you just tell in this case the DJ that if they try to push it too hard it will only get so loud and then it will automatically get softer. So don’t push it too hard. This will really annoy some DJs.
I am not aware of any other device that does this. And now that compression is built into the digital mixers (although in my opinion I still prefer the sound of the DBX 160 for vocal compression) the need for inserting external compressors is almost nonexistent. I am wondering if they will start showing up cheap on eBay. The sound company I have been doing most of my freelance work for has a bunch of them that we hardly ever use anymore.
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I am not aware of any other device that does this.
There are at least 2 such devices available.. here is one that is common over across the pond.
https://formulasounddirect.com/avc2-75-noise-limiter-p-33.html
Now.. I wonder if this thread will keep on going right up to and maybe even past new years. LOL.
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The radio station went through a local event organizer.
The band is listed on a few agencies and got picked through there.
After the initial organizer contact with the drummer (who does all the band liaison stuff), his request for DJ PA use for the rest of the night was forwarded to me. I then negotiated with him on the details.
My only commitment is to provide PA for the DJ - nothing more.
However, I will pop some lights up for him too - they will not be special but that is not what was asked of me.
So, yes it really is just a band booking with DJ playing out the rest of the night.
All the things discussed here relate more to protecting my equipment and making the transition seamless.
Your advice is priceless as always.
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Nice and easy but then how do I control how much volume he puts through the wedge? Presumably he will be less inclined to blow his own eardrums??
Put the wedge on a speaker stand pointed directly at the DJs RIGHT ear. . .because the cord for the headphones comes off the left side and gets in the way if you do it the other way 'round.
You can soundcheck his local monitor control before the show and set the gain on your powered speaker accordingly. Maybe put some gaff to keep busy hands off the controls.
DJ is essentially listening to the wedge for timing purposes, not so much for tonality, so needs to be able to hear it over FOH system. It's also nice to be able to turn the monitor down or off when not actually mixing. As long as bleed back from the mains isn't bad, driving the DJ monitor hard shouldn't be an issue.
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Except for the mixers/controllers that have the headphone jack on the right side. Just saying; they can go both sides. Since positioning of the booth monitor will take all of ten seconds to do, there's no reason to worry about which side to put it on, etc, in advance of the DJ getting there.
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The radio station went through a local event organizer.
All the things discussed here relate more to protecting my equipment and making the transition seamless.
Your advice is priceless as always.
Ok after reading some of the details, I'm going to change my tune a bit. The way this is set up, there's a very good chance that the DJ will consider himself the headliner. At 11pm, there's also a very good chance that he's going to want to hit it hard right off. Plug him into your mixer, and don't abandon the faders until you get him settled in.
Everyone involved will want the transition totally seamless. As DJs we do this all the time in clubs. The way I do it (and it's pretty standard) is to set up a beat loop that starts immediately, give props to the previous DJ or band, rev up the crowd, and then release the loop into probably the biggest track I've got if it's prime time.
At whatever volume I can get away with (safely for me, maybe not so much for your guy).
Anyway you have every reason to be cautious Debbie.
And if you're wondering how this is going to go down on NYE, the billing in the radio ads should be a pretty good clue when they hit.
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Thanks Bill. Sounds close to what I expected. The band BTW is getting some really nice plugs on radio and is featured well on the posters but I am under no illusions that folks are there for the DJ.
There are also at least 2 more ballrooms in the same hotel with DJ's in them that night and I was asked to provide sound and lights for all of them but had to decline.
Even if I could gather up enough subs (tops wouldn't be an issue), I don't have the cool lights required and he made a big deal about that and I also don't have the men - just me and my man.
Just want to check again on connectivity through my mixer.... Regarding the booth routing, what would be best once input to the mixer?
1) Assigning booth outs to the mixer ALT outs - that way I can assign L & R to Alt out ( as opposed to LR) which makes both ALT outs mono and I have an Alt out master knob on the console which I can set conservatively.
Or 2) Using a mix (aux) out on the mixer as I would any stage monitor?
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Just want to check again on connectivity through my mixer.... Regarding the booth routing, what would be best once input to the mixer?
1) Assigning booth outs to the mixer ALT outs - that way I can assign L & R to Alt out ( as opposed to LR) which makes both ALT outs mono and I have an Alt out master knob on the console which I can set conservatively.
Or 2) Using a mix (aux) out on the mixer as I would any stage monitor?
You need to have 4 inputs into your console.
His main L/R and his monitor L/R.
His mains go only to your mains
His monitor inputs go to your (assuming aux) outputs driving his monitors.
That way HE can turn his monitor up or down as needed, without affecting the signal going to the house mains
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... or you can just let the DJ run his monitor straight from his controller. Ivan does it for the big boys - and it's definitely also valid if you are concerned about the DJ blowing up your monitors. But that's not behavior I would expect from a DJ hired for an event in a hotel ballroom.
Us club guys are pretty much self contained - with independently adjustable mic and aux ins, and independently adjustable main, monitor, and headphone outs. And the guy may actually bring his own monitor anyway - which is fairly common.
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You need to have 4 inputs into your console.
His main L/R and his monitor L/R.
His mains go only to your mains
His monitor inputs go to your (assuming aux) outputs driving his monitors.
That way HE can turn his monitor up or down as needed, without affecting the signal going to the house mains
This is exactly what I have planned Ivan having taken everything on board that you guys have said. 4 channels - 2 FOH and 2 Booth wedge. However - I was just checking to see if anyone can see a benefit routing DJ booth to the wedge either of these 2 ways - Alt out or mon (mix/aux) out??
I see one benefit to using mon out and that is that I can adjust the volume from my iPad without going to the mixer.
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This is exactly what I have planned Ivan having taken everything on board that you guys have said. 4 channels - 2 FOH and 2 Booth wedge. However - I was just checking to see if anyone can see a benefit routing DJ booth to the wedge either of these 2 ways - Alt out or mon (mix/aux) out??
I see one benefit to using mon out and that is that I can adjust the volume from my iPad without going to the mixer.
Monitor out would be the way to go in my book.
I have found that a loud monitor eventually starts sounding softer to a dj as the guy's ears fatigue ie; ears start to shut down.
With a monitor mix you can give him what he thinks he needs because you can raise his level without affecting the FOH speakers.
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Monitor out would be the way to go in my book.
I have found that a loud monitor eventually starts sounding softer to a dj as the guy's ears fatigue ie; ears start to shut down.
With a monitor mix you can give him what he thinks he needs because you can raise his level without affecting the FOH speakers.
But I can do the same thing with alt out- I have a knob!
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Monitor out would be the way to go in my book.
I have found that a loud monitor eventually starts sounding softer to a dj as the guy's ears fatigue ie; ears start to shut down.
With a monitor mix you can give him what he thinks he needs because you can raise his level without affecting the FOH speakers.
I have worked with DJs that simply blast their monitors constantly.
And others that turn the monitors completely or almost completely off, except when they need them, and then they turn them down.
They say it helps them feel the house system better.
So, as usual, it depends.
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After 8 pages of How to Plug A DJ Into Your PA System...
Honestly guys we've got Debbie way overthinking this. As this is her first time integrating with a DJ, I'm going to advise her to go the simplest route.
Plan on a pair of XLR outputs, as most modern DJ mixers and all-in-one consoles from the last decade have them. Plug those into one of the stereo input channels of your QU using XLR-F to TRS adapters. Set the input gain on that stereo input to -10dB to start, which is about where a Pioneer DJM going two into the reds will be happy. Be pleasantly surprised if he doesn't hit it that hard. Monitor the level occasionally during his set.
With those SRX subs you can set the Hi Pass to 40, and have a Hi Shelf ready to tame any excessive brightness. I find DJ music usually sounds rather bright when it follows a band set.
Don't use channel compression, the music's going to be heavily compressed already.
Have him use the booth output on his mixer to connect to his/your monitor, might need another TRS to XLR-M unless the monitor has a combo jack, then you can just use a TS instrument cable. Don't over-complicate it by insisting on running his booth outputs through your QU and sending it back. While ultimately this is the better solution for bigger DJ productions, it's just not worth the extra hassle for a NYE hotel ballroom gig.
His mic goes into his mixer as well. Advise him to roll back the mic Lo eq to 9:00 so it doesn't sound like mud. Also take a quick glance at the channel eqs on his mixer, and suggest he start with them flat. If you're feeling confident just reach over and make these adjustments yourself.
That's it. One stereo pair, on one fader, that you have to concern yourself with. This should take you all of 5 minutes to set up. Then go enjoy the rest of your party and drink some champagne at midnight.
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I always connect a DJ desk with DIs. Gives me my isolation.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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After 8 pages of How to Plug A DJ Into Your PA System...
Honestly guys we've got Debbie way overthinking this. As this is her first time integrating with a DJ, I'm going to advise her to go the simplest route.
Plan on a pair of XLR outputs, as most modern DJ mixers and all-in-one consoles from the last decade have them. Plug those into one of the stereo input channels of your QU using XLR-F to TRS adapters. Set the input gain on that stereo input to -10dB to start, which is about where a Pioneer DJM going two into the reds will be happy. Be pleasantly surprised if he doesn't hit it that hard. Monitor the level occasionally during his set.
With those SRX subs you can set the Hi Pass to 40, and have a Hi Shelf ready to tame any excessive brightness. I find DJ music usually sounds rather bright when it follows a band set.
Don't use channel compression, the music's going to be heavily compressed already.
Have him use the booth output on his mixer to connect to his/your monitor, might need another TRS to XLR-M unless the monitor has a combo jack, then you can just use a TS instrument cable. Don't over-complicate it by insisting on running his booth outputs through your QU and sending it back. While ultimately this is the better solution for bigger DJ productions, it's just not worth the extra hassle for a NYE hotel ballroom gig.
His mic goes into his mixer as well. Advise him to roll back the mic Lo eq to 9:00 so it doesn't sound like mud. Also take a quick glance at the channel eqs on his mixer, and suggest he start with them flat. If you're feeling confident just reach over and make these adjustments yourself.
That's it. One stereo pair, on one fader, that you have to concern yourself with. This should take you all of 5 minutes to set up. Then go enjoy the rest of your party and drink some champagne at midnight.
Thanks Paul.
I'll go to the show prepared and maybe once I speak with the DJ I can get a read on him as to whether I need to be extra cautious or not.
I have what I need either way so no worries there.
I really am not obligated to even supply a monitor for him - that wasn't contracted so I could just take the 2 channels to FOH ( DI or not ) and be done. I just don't want to any issues caused by miscommunication.
With that said, I have left him message and so far no reponse so I have tried to reach out.
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Thanks Paul.
I'll go to the show prepared and maybe once I speak with the DJ I can get a read on him as to whether I need to be extra cautious or not.
I have what I need either way so no worries there.
I really am not obligated to even supply a monitor for him - that wasn't contracted so I could just take the 2 channels to FOH ( DI or not ) and be done. I just don't want to any issues caused by miscommunication.
With that said, I have left him message and so far no reponse so I have tried to reach out.
He may be fine without a monitor.
The term "DJ" conjurers up different ideas in different peoples heads, based on their various experiences.
The "DJs" of yesteryear did not use monitors, just headphones.
I have even had some use Sm58s (YES, the mic) as headphones.
They hook it up to the headphone jack and then just shove it in their ear when they need it. They say it is more convenient than putting headphones on and off.
So you never know what you will be dealing with.
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He may be fine without a monitor.
The term "DJ" conjurers up different ideas in different peoples heads, based on their various experiences.
The "DJs" of yesteryear did not use monitors, just headphones.
I have even had some use Sm58s (YES, the mic) as headphones.
They hook it up to the headphone jack and then just shove it in their ear when they need it. They say it is more convenient than putting headphones on and off.
So you never know what you will be dealing with.
Hah ! An SM58 as a monitor - that's kinda cool !!
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^ Well I've never heard of that! But for something like this, I'd be fine if no monitor were provided. I rely more on my phones anyway, and nights like NYE are always SOS - tracks that I'm ultra familiar with.
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Paul, agreeing but not agreeing with you.
- The Big-Boy Pioneer/A&H mixers will have XLRs out. The controllers (even within a consistent brand like Pioneer) are a crap-shoot. You can have XLR, or 1/4" -- and, yes, sometimes RCA still. And these are looking at current models. I used to own a DJM-400 (purchased in 2009, sold used last year) and its master outs were RCA (we always included a pair of RCA-XLR cables with it). I assume the DJM-350 is probably the same setup. Since this DJ hasn't contacted Debbie back, she doesn't have any clue as to what to expect. So, it's good that she'll be ready for any connector style.
- Running separate booth monitor feeds: As I mentioned before, treat the DJ like a member of the band. They have 4 inputs, they need a monitor mix from two of them (set stereo-linked). It's not going to cost her more than about 30 extra seconds, and it will give her the ability to respond to things. What if they show up with an MC and they bring a bunch of mics? Why look disorganized having to spend a couple of minutes setting that up, when you can already be prepared for surprises?
- Channel Compression: No, you won't need it JUST FOR THE MUSIC, but if the DJ has his mic into his DJ mixer, he MAY just run some extremes that you'd rather not have. Run his mic(s) into the board, patch back to the wedges just like any other band member! and you can process the mic appropriately.
Again, it just boils down-- it's easy to be ready in a professional manner for the DJ to connect into the system. I wouldn't take a short cut just because it's NYE.
FINALLY don't EVER mess with the controls on a DJ's mixer/controller without their permission. [Not sure if Paul meant during the performance or before hand-- just to be clear.] Would you go up to a guitarist and just adjust their amp controls? Go to a drummer and re-position their cymbals? Tune a guitar for the lead singer because you don't like how it sounds? Of course not. The channel strip EQs on a DJ mixer are part of their performance. Things get boosted/cut in the midst of songs. Sometimes you cut the bass to help with transitioning to the next song. That's just part of their performance. I *will* adjust their master down if it's hitting the board too hard, but I make sure they know what I am doing (and with the iPad in hand to change the gain as needed at the same time, so there's no overall level change). This is predicated on your having talked about that in advance with the DJ, so they know to expect it.
There's no reason not to take two extra minutes to present a professional experience for the DJ, no matter your perception(s) of their skillset.
[That being said, since the DJ isn't returning the advance, then they get what they get! Keep in mind, tho, that this is the holiday season, so many DJs are going to be super busy with corporate holiday parties.]
-Ray
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^ Well I've never heard of that! But for something like this, I'd be fine if no monitor were provided. I rely more on my phones anyway, and nights like NYE are always SOS - tracks that I'm ultra familiar with.
I'm fully capable of DJing using only headphones. (Sometimes, just by watching the waveforms on the media players and listening to the mains.)
-Ray "rarely DJs anymore" Aberle
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I'm fully capable of DJing using only headphones. (Sometimes, just by watching the waveforms on the media players and listening to the mains.)
-Ray "rarely DJs anymore" Aberle
You are part of a select few......
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FINALLY don't EVER mess with the controls on a DJ's mixer/controller without their permission. [Not sure if Paul meant during the performance or before hand-- just to be clear.]
Ray, I appreciate your response, and know you've done this from both sides of the decks as I have.
I do have a Radial ProAV2 just in case I need to use RCA or 1/4" outs. It hasn't happened yet but you never know. I also bring the Whirlwind ISO 1s, but likewise haven't encountered the need.
Yes, flattening their channel eqs before the performance is one of the things I make a point of. If they're using their own mixer, I sometimes see whatever settings were left over from the previous gig. If I'm supplying the mixer, it's flattened and usually more or less stays there for the event. In either case, if it does get heavily tweaked, usually hi and/or lo bands with considerable boost, I'll say something to the DJ like "man, you're killing us with those highs out here, can we back it off?" I've never gotten any pushback on this. And to be clear, I don't at all mean to suggest that channel eqs aren't utilized as part of their performance, but this usually involves cutting or killing a band completely and then returning it to flat for the next song.
I know how this might sound, but establishing that kind of confidence and control right from the start really helps set the tone for the whole event. And it works at all levels of the DJ scene that I've encountered. I don't do top-level events, but regularly work with several heavy-hitter LA market DJs and this approach helps to make everyone's night run smoothly and effortlessly from opener to headliner. They seem to relax and enjoy playing more when they sense there's a competent, confident sound guy in charge that makes them look and sound good.
Last note, if a DJ ever shows up with a DJM400, or even 600, just... no. He's getting thrown on the old spare 800 with 2 broken faders and half the caps missing!
Anyway, just my two cents.
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The "DJs" of yesteryear did not use monitors, just headphones.
As one of those DJs of yesteryear, I learned to mix without a monitor and never had a need for one. I prefer lining up the tracks in the headphones and then listening to the PA when mixing it in. With Serato and similar digital vinyl systems you almost don't need the headphones anymore. Some guys just park their Beats off the ears for the whole set out of habit and style.
I have even had some use Sm58s (YES, the mic) as headphones.
Still see the occasional headphone cup used as a microphone, for that old school street cred.
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Does it matter in instances such as this whether one uses a DI box or a dedicated 1:1 transformer isolator?
Is it mainly the fact that the DI box will reduce the impedance?
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There is no impedance mismatch when connecting a line output to a line input, but if connecting to the XLR main outputs of the DJ rig you likely will need some way to pad the signal so a well equipped DI can come in handy.
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Honestly guys we've got Debbie way overthinking this. /quote]
That's not exactly uncharted waters for Debbie, she is quite thorough in her pursuits!
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... Yes, flattening their channel eqs before the performance is one of the things I make a point of. If they're using their own mixer, I sometimes see whatever settings were left over from the previous gig. If I'm supplying the mixer, it's flattened and usually more or less stays there for the event. In either case, if it does get heavily tweaked, usually hi and/or lo bands with considerable boost, I'll say something to the DJ like "man, you're killing us with those highs out here, can we back it off?" I've never gotten any pushback on this. And to be clear, I don't at all mean to suggest that channel eqs aren't utilized as part of their performance, but this usually involves cutting or killing a band completely and then returning it to flat for the next song.
I know how this might sound, but establishing that kind of confidence and control right from the start really helps set the tone for the whole event. And it works at all levels of the DJ scene that I've encountered. I don't do top-level events, but regularly work with several heavy-hitter LA market DJs and this approach helps to make everyone's night run smoothly and effortlessly from opener to headliner. They seem to relax and enjoy playing more when they sense there's a competent, confident sound guy in charge that makes them look and sound good.
Last note, if a DJ ever shows up with a DJM400, or even 600, just... no. He's getting thrown on the old spare 800 with 2 broken faders and half the caps missing!
Anyway, just my two cents.
Everybody and his/her mother are calling themselves 'DJ' these days. And if they have a friend with a car they put a mic in his hand and call him the 'MC'. My tactics and experiences are about the same as yours. Part of the heavy eq-ing, especially in the highs, is inexperience of the DJ standing BEHIND the PA, with the subs pumping away. Some Dj's (most?) think it has to sound good for THEM, not the audience. Those are usually the same ones with the bad mp3's and all the red lights. With most DJ's it's good to establish some seniority, also known as babysitting.
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Everybody and his/her mother are calling themselves 'DJ' these days. And if they have a friend with a car they put a mic in his hand and call him the 'MC'. My tactics and experiences are about the same as yours. Part of the heavy eq-ing, especially in the highs, is inexperience of the DJ standing BEHIND the PA, with the subs pumping away. Some Dj's (most?) think it has to sound good for THEM, not the audience. Those are usually the same ones with the bad mp3's and all the red lights. With most DJ's it's good to establish some seniority, also known as babysitting.
How is it that when I am providing background music (between acts at a multi-band show) all of my CD tracks seem to produce the same amount of signal (same volume coming out of my CD player over several CD's) as opposed to some DJ'd songs producing different levels of signal????
My least favorite experiences tech'ing DJ's stem from those who may download their songs from "multiple" sites. It seems that some of the song files are fat (contain more digital info) than others.
A DJ will crank his mixer's volume to make up for the "short"
(quieter) files but when a "fat file" (louder) comes along he will not bring down the level, thus, he clips his mixer which in turn clips my gear, etc.
My DJ experiences must be with those that are on the lower end of their discipline who use "bad mp3's".
I realize that my experiences with DJ's may not be the norm....
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Something tells me 'bad mp3's/dj's' IS the norm...
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Honestly guys we've got Debbie way overthinking this. /quote]
That's not exactly uncharted waters for Debbie, she is quite thorough in her pursuits!
LOL - And ALWAYS appreciative of everyone's input!!
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Here is what I predict.
Dj shows up, plugs in, no big deal. No excitement, party ends.
Then nothing to talk about
OR, DJ shows up and then all hell breaks loose and each side (DJs and sound guys/girls) argue--------------
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In other words....
It Depends?!?
heh.
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Here is what I predict.
Dj shows up, plugs in, no big deal. No excitement, party ends.
Then nothing to talk about
OR, DJ shows up and then all hell breaks loose and each side (DJs and sound guys/girls) argue--------------
OR, DJ fails to show up, and the client wants Debbie "to just play some stuff" from somebody's phone/iPod/laptop. (Sorry to be such a pessimist, Debbie.)
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OR, DJ fails to show up, and the client wants Debbie "to just play some stuff" from somebody's phone/iPod/laptop. (Sorry to be such a pessimist, Debbie.)
Bonus points if "somebody" turns out to be Debbie. "I mean, YOU'RE a DJ, right? You have the speakers?!? Can't you just play some good dance music?"
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Bonus points if "somebody" turns out to be Debbie. "I mean, YOU'RE a DJ, right? You have the speakers?!? Can't you just play some good dance music?"
Me: "Sure, if you like to dance to Tuvian Throat Singing..."
My personal computers and playback devices have lots of MY music. I hope you like my taste...
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Me: "Sure, if you like to dance to Tuvian Throat Singing..."
My personal computers and playback devices have lots of MY music. I hope you like my taste...
My version of hell has me being handed other people's devices (two or more, each different), and I'm supposed to do music selection on the fly, in a genre I don't know, with tracks I've never heard (or heard of).
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If the DJ doesn't turn up, once the band is finished I'll tell everyone over the mic to go into the next room where the other DJ is playing. Then power down and I go home ;)
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If the DJ doesn't turn up, the band will likely be asked to play at least one more set. This can be a very lucrative deal, so keep your options open.
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"I mean, YOU'RE a DJ, right? You have the speakers?!? Can't you just play some good dance music?"
I often have my phone playing Pandora sitting in for the opening DJ at my summer day party. No big deal. DJs just can't seem to get there by 3.
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Just in case, I wonder if Debbie knows how to call a square dance, or has lot's of polka music, or maybe even a box full of Morris dancer bells she could take along. Just in case.
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If the DJ doesn't turn up, the band will likely be asked to play at least one more set. This can be a very lucrative deal, so keep your options open.
Ya, you can ask for a bunch at that point.
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Just in case, I wonder if Debbie knows how to call a square dance, or has lot's of polka music, or maybe even a box full of Morris dancer bells she could take along. Just in case.
Hmmm. Morris dancers! That's the ticket!
We can dance if we want to
We can leave your friends behind
Because your friends don't dance and if they don't dance
Well they're no friends of mine.
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Something tells me 'bad mp3's/dj's' IS the norm...
just like loud drummers and guitar amps
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How is it that when I am providing background music (between acts at a multi-band show) all of my CD tracks seem to produce the same amount of signal (same volume coming out of my CD player over several CD's) as opposed to some DJ'd songs producing different levels of signal? ???
My best guess is that your taste in music is from a similar decade, or if it's older music you have the remastered versions so their loudness has been brought up to whatever passes as acceptable today.
I've seen this volume issue in the past, mostly with vinyl DJ's throwing old R&B breakdowns together with newer Top 40 hits or something along those lines.
"My" reference music (used for tuning a rig by ear to verify the more accurate method worked properly) is stuff I've heard millions of times from my youth for familiarity, so naturally it's stuff from the early 90's that all came off the same record label in the same genre, so it's pretty consistent.
Disclaimer: NOT a DJ, unless you count my own personal hell of being handed a series of iPhones at a wedding, playing songs off youtube with patchy WiFi, pausing each playback after the ad finished so it was ready when the last phone finished, patching with two 1/8" TRS to dual RCA adapter cables into two stereo channels in my mixer. Yeah, I've lived it. The things you do for friends...
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Today's current EDM/Hip Hop/Pop is all over the place, from a production point of view. Most tracks DJs play have a huge variance in sound quality, output levels, and overall clarity - even when purchased from "legitimate" sources.
High pass filters are required, as a lot of Hip Hop & Bass music is produced with frequencies into the 20s and lower, with many of those making them don't realize that most sound systems can't reproduce and in fact will hurt speakers. I constantly have to adjust gain trims from track to track. More often than not, many of these tracks are produced in someone's bedroom, with the "Producer" just throwing fx & compressors at Ableton and seeing what sticks. Even older tracks vary, depending on when they were remastered and how they were ripped. I have tracks that I've ripped from a CD years ago that sound terrible now (compared to new rips) due to lower bitrates and the now outdated algorithms used to digitally convert it to MP3.
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I had the event organizer contact the DJ who sent me an email today. He says he has, " (2) Technics 1200's + Rane TTM 57sl mixer", and that the mixer has XLR RCA and 1/4" outs - YES!
I had asked him what his requirement are regarding monitor, mics etc but he didn't address that so I responded to his email advising him I will assume all he needs is left and right FOH and that he has his own monitor. At least I can plan a bit more easily now.
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...Rane TTM 57sl mixer...
You're all set. Note that the Rane doesn't have quite as hot a nominal output as the Pioneer DJMs. So maybe to start, set the input gain on the QU's stereo input channel about 6dB higher than I had suggested, to around -4dB and see how that works. The Rane's are, in my opinion, the best sounding of the popular DJ mixers.
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" (2) Technics 1200's + Rane TTM 57sl mixer",
He is using vinyl as a control surface so he is definitely a mix DJ, he will want a monitor for sure.
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I'd also recommend to minimize the amount of bass rolling back on his stage as too much vibration will make his turntables unusable.
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Wow - what a night !.
So....... I took 1/4" cords with me to the show along with 2 stereo DI boxes. The DJ arrived and informed me he could only provide one set of 1/4" outputs so either the FOH or booth outs had to be RCA or XLR. I wasn't told this ahead of time so I didn't have the cords needed. I did however have with me a little patch box which converted the XLRs to 1/4" for the DI box. Wired him in and all was good.
We did a sound check for him and set all his levels. I expected hot signals but I had to have my gains WAY up and had him set his output a bit higher to get the meters healthy. The DI boxes and use of TS cords had attenuated his signal down quite far it would seem. The latency was acceptable to him.
He had no lights and the silly little things provided for the room were pretty useless so I had a creative idea that might work to help out the situation too......
The transition from band to DJ was so smooth......
When we had arrived, the organizers had put the stage in a completely different place to where we were told and the dance floor was locked in so nothing could be done. Instead of the stage being at the long end of the room, it was now on the wide side.
We had anticipated putting the DJ table on the stage next to the drums (band's suggestion) but it no longer fitted the stage shape so this is what we did:
The DJ set up all his equipment on his table next to the stage - and after sound check we unhooked from me and the power.
The DJ had a prepared set of songs on his iPhone that I sent through my usual iPod input that I use for break music.
The band finished their play time and the DJ started the iPhone mix.
He had 8 songs on there so we had that long to get the drum set and everything off the stage.
The guys scurried around clearing the stage and then 4 of them grabbed a corner of the table and with his decks and mixers set up on it, they carried it over to the stage through a wall of people and lifted it up and placed it.
I quickly wired him in to power, DI boxes, monitor wedge and set up a mic on a boom stand.
The guitar player has a powered monitor on a stand so we used the same one for the DJ. All this in low light from my stage lights and with people everywhere.
As the last song started, the DJ shouted to me. "Last Song! "
I then used a long extending pole I had in my kit - I had left the T bars slightly loose on the lighting stands - and I used the pole to turn the lights around to the dance floor.
I ran over to my iPads, set the lights to about 40% and sound to light, noticed the meters moving on the FOH music, slowly raised the DJ FOH as I lowered the iPhone channel and crossfaded the 2 songs with seconds to spare. I WAS SO PROUD OF MYSELF. The band members told me they could not tell the difference from one to the other and couldn't believe how we did it so smoothly.
From that point it got crazy though - I am not used to seeing such shenanigans going on on the dance floor and Chris and I had to play bouncer keeping screaming girls off the stage and off the equipment. It wasn't long before I popped in my ear plugs....
The DJ slowly got louder and louder and the level was deafening in the room. After a good hour, I noticed my UPS ( that only has my mixer attached) switching to battery every sub hit and then I noticed the clipping on the speakers. His levels weren't too bad but were definitely getting quite hot on the mixer so .... I pulled down the gains a few DB and we were in the clear for the rest of the night. Apart from when one drunk girl decided to use one of my tripods as a stripper pole........ speaker came down and the guy next to her caught it........He was a BIG dude to catch an SRX815sp. However the fall was also partially prevented when it hit a different girl on the head - oops..too drunk to notice. She's definitely feeling that today.
There were 4 DJ's set up in different ballrooms and our room was packed because we had by far the best sound of all of them - I went to check!!
What an experience ....resting today... I feel so old......everything hurts.....bah humbug.....
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Thanks for sharing Debbie! Glad to hear you made it through the event and your story brings back plenty memories of my own... Another day in paradise!
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Great report! I can tell you put everything into your craft.
My NYE was awesome, running a house PA and (2) tribute bands. Place was packed like I've never seen it. Same drunk girls up on stage stepping on things and spilling drinks everywhere. I couldn't hardly walk through the room, or get near the stage. I had to continuously scrape my feet off because of the spilt booze and party favors everywhere!
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So, did anything out of the ordinary happen?
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Great report! I can tell you put everything into your craft.
My NYE was awesome, running a house PA and (2) tribute bands. Place was packed like I've never seen it. Same drunk girls up on stage stepping on things and spilling drinks everywhere. I couldn't hardly walk through the room, or get near the stage. I had to continuously scrape my feet off because of the spilt booze and party favors everywhere!
You know Steve sometimes those stressful time constraints bring out the best in me. We were hopping!!
Sounds like you had fun.... I wonder if your dance floor was as sticky as ours though.....
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Thanks for sharing Debbie! Glad to hear you made it through the event and your story brings back plenty memories of my own... Another day in paradise!
yeah .. mmmm. One day I'll look back and smile.
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So, did anything out of the ordinary happen?
Probably not - LOL !
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Probably not - LOL !
I was enjoying the read, then I got to the part at end about the falling srx815... you got lucky if what happened is all that happened. Golly!
I'd consider that an end to 2017, instead of a start to 2018 :)
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Probably not - LOL !
Lord Deb I hope you carry liability insurance. My two worst nightmares, an injured guest or crew.
So easy to pierce the veil of an LLC.
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Lord Deb I hope you carry liability insurance. My two worst nightmares, an injured guest or crew.
So easy to pierce the veil of an LLC.
I know - right?.. I carry liability and equipment insurance but I wouldn't necessarily want to have to claim. Fortunately a few folks saw what happened and called the girl who pulled it over an idiot - but even with that said we live in a litigious society so I did lucky and thought about that more today....
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I know - right?.. I carry liability and equipment insurance but I wouldn't necessarily want to have to claim. Fortunately a few folks saw what happened and called the girl who pulled it over an idiot - but even with that said we live in a litigious society so I did lucky and thought about that more today....
Yeah idiots are drawn to our stuff which can be called an "attractive nuisance" in tort law terms. Idiot magnet for the rest of us.
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I was enjoying the read, then I got to the part at end about the falling srx815... you got lucky if what happened is all that happened. Golly!
I'd consider that an end to 2017, instead of a start to 2018 :)
Lord Deb I hope you carry liability insurance. My two worst nightmares, an injured guest or crew.
So easy to pierce the veil of an LLC.
Drunk people do stupid shit and it's all our fault, the lawyers say so! Disclaimer - my father was an attorney and I've seen the 3 (or more) sides of most tort arguments...
The realistic take away is the party with the deepest pocket will likely be painted with the most tarry brush by the plaintiff. My Digital Crystal Ball (now with amplified antenna!) says in this case the potential defendants would be: JBL, whoever made the stand, the hotel, the event promoter/organizer, and Little Debbie (who has a speaker for you*)... maybe a few others I'm not immediately thinking of. An attorney who's doing a good job for the plaintiff client will size up the relative culpability and asset situation of the defendants and plan the case accordingly.
<history lesson>
The Station Nightclub fire in Rhode Island killed 100 and injured 230 more. You can read about it here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire
JBL was a defendant and reportedly contributed $100,000 to the settlement account. Why? Because "foam" was material set ablaze by the illegal pyro, and JBL uses "foam" in their loudspeaker suspensions. I'm sure an accountant and lawyer from Harman and its insurer ran the numbers and it was cheaper to settle than to retain counsel in RI, fly out corporate counsel for depositions and hearings, and retaining expert witnesses to testify at trail.
</history lesson>
What should have been done to better secure the speaker? I don't know. I wasn't there and I'm not intimately familiar with the setup and gear used that night... but it's easier to make a speaker stand 'bump-resistant' than it is to make it 'aspiring stripper-proof'. The amount of mass and/or anchorage needed likely would not be acceptable in a hotel ballroom. Barricade of any meaningful flavor is unlikely to be accepted, either. Security at these events is relatively thin and mostly concerned with things other than crowd control around the DJ/band gear.
Yeah idiots are drawn to our stuff which can be called an "attractive nuisance" in tort law terms. Idiot magnet for the rest of us.
Like moths to candles...
* "Little Debbie" is a snack cake brand. Their slogan is "Little Debbie has a snack for you!"
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Probably not - LOL !
As a guy who is a regular DJ to this age group, I'm always amazed at the shows the ladies put on. Climbing on a tripod is over the top though, and thankfully I've never had experienced it. Hopefully you won't again either.
Overt moves on the subs though? Oh yea... all the time :D
My gig in a downtown nightclub was so packed you couldn't move last night. There were several clubs in the area that are normally closed on Sunday, and incredibly they didn't open even though it was NYE. So we got theirs too. I tried to take a few videos, but they came out too dark and blurry to make much out. Guess my next gear purchase will be a cell phone with a better camera ;)
Glad your gig went well Debbie. It must have been exhilarating to experience your system opened up like that. You have excellent gear, and I have a feeling you will be doing a lot more of these types of events if you want them.
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As a guy who is a regular DJ to this age group, I'm always amazed at the shows the ladies put on. Climbing on a tripod is over the top though, and thankfully I've never had experienced it. Hopefully you won't again either.
Overt moves on the subs though? Oh yea... all the time :D
My gig in a downtown nightclub was so packed you couldn't move last night. There were several clubs in the area that are normally closed on Sunday, and incredibly they didn't open even though it was NYE. So we got theirs too. I tried to take a few videos, but they came out too dark and blurry to make much out. Guess my next gear purchase will be a cell phone with a better camera ;)
Glad your gig went well Debbie. It must have been exhilarating to experience your system opened up like that. You have excellent gear, and I have a feeling you will be doing a lot more of these types of events if you want them.
Last year on New Year's Eve we had a young lady in a really short skirt that put a foot on the bass players monitor. She had either forgotten to wear or misplaced her undergarment in the mayhem and the bass players reaction was priceless.
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DJ babysitting gigs - easy money, always earplugs *in*, watch the entertainment from the safety of your zone....
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Apart from when one drunk girl decided to use one of my tripods as a stripper pole........ speaker came down and the guy next to her caught it........He was a BIG dude to catch an SRX815sp. However the fall was also partially prevented when it hit a different girl on the head - oops..too drunk to notice. She's definitely feeling that today.
You mean your tripods aren't cemented into the floor?
Because the patrons at the bars in Boston grab them like they think they are.
Never had one go over (knock on wood), but have had to grab the tripod or kick somebody's hand that is pulling on it, more times that I can count.
Thankfully this year's NYE gig had flown in house speakers that I tap into.
The stage however was literally a puddle.
If you're wondering how many times you watch your bass player yell at the same girl for pulling his mic stand off the stage so she can sing in it, before I tell her to stop being a f'ing a-hole on the mic (between songs)....the answer is 5. After 5, I'm going to ruin your night by berating you.
Everyone earns their money the hard way when they work on NYE.
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You mean your tripods aren't cemented into the floor?
Because the patrons at the bars in Boston grab them like they think they are.
Never had one go over (knock on wood), but have had to grab the tripod or kick somebody's hand that is pulling on it, more times that I can count.
Thankfully this year's NYE gig had flown in house speakers that I tap into.
The stage however was literally a puddle.
If you're wondering how many times you watch your bass player yell at the same girl for pulling his mic stand off the stage so she can sing in it, before I tell her to stop being a f'ing a-hole on the mic (between songs)....the answer is 5. After 5, I'm going to ruin your night by berating you.
Everyone earns their money the hard way when they work on NYE.
You don't berate or yell at them. You have them removed.
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Everyone earns their money the hard way when they work on NYE.
So Sunday night... the whole club was so packed that you couldn't move except for this one area where there was absolutely no one... a black hole in a sea of people.
After hours I got a look - an enormous amount of puke covering a table, the chairs, and the adjacent carpet in the aisle.
NYE is full of inexperienced drinkers - who present their own set of challenges for everyone involved. While leaving I felt sorry for the cleanup crew, who was trying to figure out who was going to get that one.
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Apart from when one drunk girl decided to use one of my tripods as a stripper pole........ speaker came down and the guy next to her caught it........He was a BIG dude to catch an SRX815sp. However the fall was also partially prevented when it hit a different girl on the head - oops..too drunk to notice. She's definitely feeling that today.
There were 4 DJ's set up in different ballrooms and our room was packed because we had by far the best sound of all of them - I went to check!!
What an experience ....resting today... I feel so old......everything hurts.....bah humbug.....
Did the stand fall over or did it un-telescope? If it is a telescoping section that dropped down, the one trick to keeping that from happening it to put a piece of gaffers tape around the pole, right where it wants to slide down into the other part of the pole. It won’t drop with the tape on it.
When using tripod stands outdoors we have a tendency to put sandbags hanging from the cross pieces that go out to the legs. We usually use at least 2 sandbags per stand. We don’t do bar shows and very rarely have to deal with drunks. But after reading this I may make it a practice to use the sandbags in a lot more situations.
Regarding everything hurting I know what you mean. But sometimes I find that means that I am dehydrated. I try to drink enough liquids (not alcohol) to keep from getting dehydrated but sometimes you don’t seem to have the time to drink enough.
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Wow - what a night !.
What an experience ....resting today... I feel so old......everything hurts.....bah humbug.....
The DJ slowly got louder and louder and the level was deafening in the room.
I told you so;-)
For me the five toughest sound gigs for my gear (and my ears) were the NYE sound for DJ gigs.
Once the gigs were over, the hall was wet with beer/champagne, and vomit....disgusting.
...what I did for money....
From that point it got crazy though - Chris and I had to play bouncer keeping screaming girls off the stage and off the equipment.
On my NYE gigs the DJ (a veteran of NYE gigs) did a smart thing....he hired two young guys (in their early 20's) to guard the stairs to the stage.... He also put a clipboard on the stage for people to write down their requests....
..kind of funny though....most of the request writing was illegible as the gals writing the requests were hammered for the most part...
I am not used to seeing such shenanigans going on on the dance floor
Those NYE gigs were enlightening to say the least....at times I wanted to hop off the stage and tell the male attendees to chill the drinking as they were missing the show....some of the girls were c-r-a-z-y and I wondered how they got home....
One other thing: I always found that my amp racks got extremely dusty on those gigs..... Fortunately Jan/Feb were down months so I had time to open the amps and blow them out...
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Feel recovered today. I hope to never be in this position again (regarding tripod going over) but it does make me realize that I probably could have stabilized it better from idiots.
I am not sure I could have pulled it over myself so that girl must have had some strength - she pulled the whole thing over. I thought I had positioned everything well had those legs wide spread.
Chris was one side and me the other. keeping watch. It was his side that went over (he he)- he saw it happen but couldn't get there in time. The guy who caught it was standing right there.
I only took tripods because I used 2 stacked SRX818 on one side and a SRX828 on the other - no pole cup in the 828.
An insurance claim first day of the year would not have been good for me. I only just paid my premium!!
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Did the stand fall over or did it un-telescope? If it is a telescoping section that dropped down, the one trick to keeping that from happening it to put a piece of gaffers tape around the pole, right where it wants to slide down into the other part of the pole. It won’t drop with the tape on it.
When using tripod stands outdoors we have a tendency to put sandbags hanging from the cross pieces that go out to the legs. We usually use at least 2 sandbags per stand. We don’t do bar shows and very rarely have to deal with drunks. But after reading this I may make it a practice to use the sandbags in a lot more situations.
Regarding everything hurting I know what you mean. But sometimes I find that means that I am dehydrated. I try to drink enough liquids (not alcohol) to keep from getting dehydrated but sometimes you don’t seem to have the time to drink enough.
This again raises a huge question that really bothers me; Why in the hell did JBL not put a speaker pole on the long side of that 828 cabinet? I use the single 18's now, and almost no amount of pole dancing could knock my mains over with that box on the floor below. I want to double my sub's this coming year, and getting a 828 makes sense, but I will be voiding my warranty on day 1 because it WILL need a pole socket. I use K&M threaded speaker poles with the expanding mandrel.
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Feel recovered today. I hope to never be in this position again (regarding tripod going over) but it does make me realize that I probably could have stabilized it better from idiots.
I am not sure I could have pulled it over myself so that girl must have had some strength - she pulled the whole thing over. I thought I had positioned everything well had those legs wide spread.
Chris was one side and me the other. keeping watch. It was his side that went over (he he)- he saw it happen but couldn't get there in time. The guy who caught it was standing right there.
I only took tripods because I used 2 stacked SRX818 on one side and a SRX828 on the other - no pole cup in the 828.
An insurance claim first day of the year would not have been good for me. I only just paid my premium!!
I just missed your post but agree there should be a pole socket. Sorry for the topic swerve
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This again raises a huge question that really bothers me; Why in the hell did JBL not put a speaker pole on the long side of that 828 cabinet? I use the single 18's now, and almost no amount of pole dancing could knock my mains over with that box on the floor below. I want to double my sub's this coming year, and getting a 828 makes sense, but I will be voiding my warranty on day 1 because it WILL need a pole socket. I use K&M threaded speaker poles with the expanding mandrel.
There is an internal divider and bracing right where the pole cup would go.
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Yes - a pole cup would have prevented this from occurring.
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This again raises a huge question that really bothers me; Why in the hell did JBL not put a speaker pole on the long side of that 828 cabinet? I use the single 18's now, and almost no amount of pole dancing could knock my mains over with that box on the floor below. I want to double my sub's this coming year, and getting a 828 makes sense, but I will be voiding my warranty on day 1 because it WILL need a pole socket. I use K&M threaded speaker poles with the expanding mandrel.
I like the threaded ones because they do not intrude much into the cabinet. They are also rock solid - no wobbles.
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There is an internal divider and bracing right where the pole cup would go.
Then I will simply mount it just left or right of that divider.
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I only took tripods because I used 2 stacked SRX818 on one side and a SRX828 on the other - no pole cup in the 828.
For high energy rooms like this I've actually put the tripods behind the subs for protection. For all practical purposes it doesn't matter for this age group, because the subs are the primary focus of their attention.
In a way it's kind of how I had things set this NYE, with the tops behind the subs on a riser. I wish I'd taken clearer pics :(
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For high energy rooms like this I've actually put the tripods behind the subs for protection. For all practical purposes it doesn't matter for this age group, because the subs are the primary focus of their attention.
In a way it's kind of how I had things set this NYE, with the tops behind the subs on a riser. I wish I'd taken clearer pics :(
My tripods were inside the subs set back slightly with the front leg level with the front of the subs - not protruding at all. That's the other thing - she pulled it against the one leg at the front - I have no idea how she managed it.
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My tripods were inside the subs set back slightly with the front leg level with the front of the subs - not protruding at all. That's the other thing - she pulled it against the one leg at the front - I have no idea how she managed it.
As a long-time Techie, I am continually amazed at how "normal" people can instantly turn your best prepared plans into a CF in seconds!!
There's ALWAYS that one person, and you are left shaking your head in wonderous amazement!
CONCLUSION: ALWAYS plan on the average punter being inherently stupid. Then add alcohol into the equation!! :o
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You can't make anything 'Idiot Proof', only 'Idiot Resistant'.
They work SO hard to do stupid things. :o
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As a long-time Techie, I am continually amazed at how "normal" people can instantly turn your best prepared plans into a CF in seconds!!
There's ALWAYS that one person, and you are left shaking your head in wonderous amazement!
CONCLUSION: ALWAYS plan on the average punter being inherently stupid. Then add alcohol into the equation!! :o
Copy that !
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You can't make anything 'Idiot Proof', only 'Idiot Resistant'.
They work SO hard to do stupid things. :o
And that!... lesson learned for sure!
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And that!... lesson learned for sure!
As the saying goes...
Life is a constant battle between engineers, trying to make everything more idiot-proof *resistant* (thanks Dave G); and the universe, trying to make better idiots.
Currently, the Universe is believed to be winning.
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You don't berate or yell at them. You have them removed.
And ruin MY fun...no way man.
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As the saying goes...
Life is a constant battle between engineers, trying to make everything more idiot-proof *resistant* (thanks Dave G); and the universe, trying to make better idiots.
Currently, the Universe is believed to be winning.
Totally stealing this....
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And that other line "Things are so difficult to idiot proof because idiots are so ingenious".
Glad that nothing bad happened, or at least came back to bite you.
I was playing in a bar once when a fight broke out. Or at least a 300lb guy got tired of a scrawny clown poking at him, turned a swatted him across the room charging after him. I had some plastic EVs on poles over single 15 subs and found that they weren't as stable as I thought when this pair crashed into them. Fortunately I was on that side of the stage and was able to reach out and catch it and pull it back upright while holding the same chord on the guitar. Cracked the bass player up. Lesson learned, anything can be tipped over with enough force.
I do the same thing with the tripod leg in between 1-18 cabs and the other legs behind. I'd done my time alignment for that arrangement. It seems like the only direction it could go would be straight back. But now you've got me worried.
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And that other line "Things are so difficult to idiot proof because idiots are so ingenious".
Glad that nothing bad happened, or at least came back to bite you.
I was playing in a bar once when a fight broke out. Or at least a 300lb guy got tired of a scrawny clown poking at him, turned a swatted him across the room charging after him. I had some plastic EVs on poles over single 15 subs and found that they weren't as stable as I thought when this pair crashed into them. Fortunately I was on that side of the stage and was able to reach out and catch it and pull it back upright while holding the same chord on the guitar. Cracked the bass player up. Lesson learned, anything can be tipped over with enough force.
I do the same thing with the tripod leg in between 1-18 cabs and the other legs behind. I'd done my time alignment for that arrangement. It seems like the only direction it could go would be straight back. But now you've got me worried.
now I'm thinking.....
I have been providing the rig for my local ACS Relay for Life for the past 10 (maybe more?) years.
The annual event uses a "showmobile" stage situated on a local high school football field.
So, the first year I tech'd the gig I'm running power, speaker cables, etc. and the DJ looks at me and says: "you're so anal retentive about your cables..." Me: "dude.....if I leave one foot of exposed cable on the field...some 80 year old senior citizen will trip on it.....(almost like a tripping magnet)....not on my watch..."
Still, stuff could happen..."stupid" doesn't need a reason or excuse....stupid just "is".
I carry liability insurance but would hate to have to file a claim.....
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Lord Deb I hope you carry liability insurance. My two worst nightmares, an injured guest or crew.
So easy to pierce the veil of an LLC.
These days I would not even think of setting up a mic stand in public without liability insurance.
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These days I would not even think of setting up a mic stand in public without liability insurance.
I agree.... for the longest time I didn't carry a specific insurance - liability or otherwise - for my gear. I never really thought about it. Other than Sound Companies around here I don't know anyone who does. However, after I joined PSW forum, it was brought up quite a lot and I realized that even though I am smallsville in terms of SR, it is something I should do. So I did. ....and even though this turned out OK, my insurance could have saved my butt!
We live in a different world these days and growing up in the UK where I had never even heard of anyone suing anyone else ( things have changed there now I know), my head just didn't go there. My other reason for not having any insurance in the past was that Chris and I are the only ones really touching the gear and we can control what happens - WELL OBVIOUSLY NOT!!
The premium is a lot for me and I don't earn enough to afford it BUT I also couldn't afford to lose my house so it gives me great comfort knowing I have the coverage and this incident reinforces that.
So... thank you everyone for persuading me to do the right thing.
In addition: Maybe this incident will encourage others to do the same.
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This how I am working toward "never a tripod again".
-Dennis
<edit> No, Wifey is not happy with this stuff in her dining room, but hey, it's COLD out in the garage!
:)
<edit2> Fired it up; works great. Now Wifey wants it out and her DR back! Oh... OK, dear. ;)
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Front:
-D
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Front:
-D
I like where this is going. especially for combat audio, which many of our members are certainly engage in.
What are the actual pieces/parts you've used to accomplish this?
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I like where this is going. especially for combat audio, which many of our members are certainly engage in.
What are the actual pieces/parts you've used to accomplish this?
The DJ Barge of DOOM. (cue the Wagner) ;D
Wiggs, how do you immobilize the cart?
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....... especially for combat audio,
Providing a rig used to be just that...now I carry liability insurance as a necessary evil........
How do the guys that do the $200.00 sound provider-gig-at-a-club afford the premium??
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Providing a rig used to be just that...now I carry liability insurance as a necessary evil........
How do the guys that do the $200.00 sound provider-gig-at-a-club afford the premium??
They don't and that's why they are called "trunk slammers".
To have a company, carry insurance and pay someone to do the gig you can't do $200 gigs. The problem is getting the customer to perceive the value.
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What are the actual pieces/parts you've used to accomplish this?
The 2 swivel wheels lock on each platform. The "barge" consists of 4 ZXA1-Subs + 1 Peavey Impulse 1012. The connecting bar across the top of the subs is an inverted On Stage SS7920 Dual Mount Speaker Bracket.
The platform is 1/2" ply over a 2x4 base. All glued, screwed, and flat black. The pole stay is 3/4" conduit (flattened and drilled at the top end). The clamps are Chauvet with (ahem) 30# tar paper shims... still working on that detail, but they do grip.
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For New Year's I set up 2 of these same platforms with 2 Sb122s and a DXR10 on each with my DJ cart in between. The whole thing "docks" together and is about 9 feet wide.
I got in and set up early. When I showed up to play the owner wanted me to "Move it On Over" (RIP Hank) about 3 feet. No problem. I just unlocked the wheels and rolled it all sideways.
No one missed the lack of bass below 45Hz. I did not miss any part of it being over 40 lbs. I'll just have to deal with the 46 lb. ZXA1-Subs. ;)
A really bad pic, but that's all I have.
-Dennis
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The 2 swivel wheels lock on each platform. The "barge" consists of 4 ZXA1-Subs + 1 Peavey Impulse 1012. The connecting bar across the top of the subs is an inverted On Stage SS7920 Dual Mount Speaker Bracket.
The platform is 1/2" ply over a 2x4 base. All glued, screwed, and flat black. The pole stay is 3/4" conduit (flattened and drilled at the top end). The clamps are Chauvet with (ahem) 30# tar paper shims... still working on that detail, but they do grip.
...
For New Year's I set up 2 of these same platforms with 2 Sb122s and a DXR10 on each with my DJ cart in between. The whole thing "docks" together and is about 9 feet wide.
I got in and set up early. When I showed up to play the owner wanted me to "Move it On Over" (RIP Hank) about 3 feet. No problem. I just unlocked the wheels and rolled it all sideways.
No one missed the lack of bass below 45Hz. I did not miss any part of it being over 40 lbs. I'll just have to deal with the 46 lb. ZXA1-Subs. ;)
-Dennis
I love creative set ups !!!...It looks like the dual mount speaker bracket would only work for small subs such as those you are using. Most of the 18" boxes would be too large - no? I can't tell from the picture.
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I love creative set ups !!!...It looks like the dual mount speaker bracket would only work for small subs such as those you are using. Most of the 18" boxes would be too large - no? I can't tell from the picture.
The dual posts are about 20" center-to-center. In spite of the "specs" I would not recommend using this with a pole longer than 24", nor a top speaker heavier than 50 lbs. Perhaps someone could design a heavier duty (especially for the center pole) version that has a width suitable for 'most' 18" subs?
-D
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The dual posts are about 20" center-to-center. In spite of the "specs" I would not recommend using this with a pole longer than 24", nor a top speaker heavier than 50 lbs. Perhaps someone could design a heavier duty (especially for the center pole) version that has a width suitable for 'most' 18" subs?
-D
My SRX812sp speakers alone weigh 58lbs each and the SRX812p subs are 27" wide so this is why most folks using 18's couldn't adopt this set up. It is good that it works for you though - have fun!!
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My SRX812sp speakers alone weigh 58lbs each and the SRX812p subs are 27" wide...
Then you would need about 28 30" center-to-center (you want a little gap between the subs for the rear brace * recommended * to come through). Any welders out there with some 1" x 2" box stock, some 1.375" O.D. tubing (to easily go into the sub cups) and some tubing suitable to securely clamp/hold a 35mm (vertical) pole?
-D
<edit for Design Engineers/Welders...> The stock going into pole cup shall be 1.375" and the top pole clamp should allow for 1.375" to 35mm (very close to 1.37795).
-D
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I was just told by one of the band members that someone at the event told him that at one point in the evening, there was a burning smell emanating from somewhere on stage. Chris or I never smelled anything and all my speakers worked fine right till the end but there was that window of time when I noticed the clipping, so now I am worried that it was coming from one of my speakers. I hope they were mistaken or it was something unrelated. Gheesh......
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I was just told by one of the band members that someone at the event told him that at one point in the evening, there was a burning smell emanating from somewhere on stage. Chris or I never smelled anything and all my speakers worked fine right till the end but there was that window of time when I noticed the clipping, so now I am worried that it was coming from one of my speakers. I hope they were mistaken or it was something unrelated. Gheesh......
You simply must tell us if a speaker caught fire :)
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I was just told by one of the band members that someone at the event told him that at one point in the evening, there was a burning smell emanating from somewhere on stage. Chris or I never smelled anything and all my speakers worked fine right till the end but there was that window of time when I noticed the clipping, so now I am worried that it was coming from one of my speakers. I hope they were mistaken or it was something unrelated. Gheesh......
I've had subwoofers get hot enough to smell like.. something was getting hot. Chances are, if it was your speakers (and my bet is on the DJ's monitor) you'll be fine.
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The dual posts are about 20" center-to-center. In spite of the "specs" I would not recommend using this with a pole longer than 24", nor a top speaker heavier than 50 lbs. Perhaps someone could design a heavier duty (especially for the center pole) version that has a width suitable for 'most' 18" subs?
-D
flat plate, with stubs for the subs on the bottom, and a pole mount in the center on top. Sandwich it between the bottom and top subs ?
Chris.
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I've had subwoofers get hot enough to smell like.. something was getting hot. Chances are, if it was your speakers (and my bet is on the DJ's monitor) you'll be fine.
Thanks Tim. Even if the smell came from one of my speakers, I would be surprised if any damage was done.
Like I said before, everything worked and sounded great till the very end - DJ monitor included. If anything got hot, I hope it WAS the DJ monitor and not any of my SRX speakers. The guy did say he was standing on the side where I had the DJ monitor.
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It'd be worth checking out any power bricks/cabling you had in that area. A "burning smell" could have also been coming from a power cable experiencing more power through it than what it's rated for.
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It'd be worth checking out any power bricks/cabling you had in that area. A "burning smell" could have also been coming from a power cable experiencing more power through it than what it's rated for.
That is a consideration - although Chris and I were closer to the power connects than anyone in the audience. Some of the audience members were closer to the speakers so I think we would have smelled it ourselves. I have a pretty sensitive nose so I am not sure why I didnt smell it.
However, what flagged me to check for clipping was that I noticed my UPS jumping to battery every sub hit. As soon as I pulled levels back a bit, that stopped happening so there must have been quite a draw on the circuit that the UPS was connected to. I was only provided 2 dedicated circuits total so I split the equipment between them.
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The smell of venue wiring getting hot? Old 14 awg on a 20A breaker?
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I was just told by one of the band members that someone at the event told him that at one point in the evening, there was a burning smell emanating from somewhere on stage.
I got worried by a burning smell when I was setting up at an event back in the summer. It was just after I had switched my amps on... Then I remembered where I was. A local preserved steam railway for their annual steam fair with lots of visiting steam traction engines!
Steve.
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What ARE your UPSes rated for, anyhow?
I don't UPS any of my live audio gear since "big enough" UPSes are expensive. Keep in mind, too, that long runs of copper between your UPS and the hot bus in the building's breaker bus can really cause the line voltage to drop when lots of power is flowing.
Those iNuke and IPR-style amps, for example .. they can (for a few ms) draw WAY more than 15A of power.
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What ARE your UPSes rated for, anyhow?
I don't UPS any of my live audio gear since "big enough" UPSes are expensive. Keep in mind, too, that long runs of copper between your UPS and the hot bus in the building's breaker bus can really cause the line voltage to drop when lots of power is flowing.
Those iNuke and IPR-style amps, for example .. they can (for a few ms) draw WAY more than 15A of power.
Ummm. UPS for controls, NOT amplification or lighting.
That's what Genny's are for.
I have also had "dodgy" power. Every shot of the Kick dims the littlelites.
Thing is, a UPS that is constantly going to battery is going to be exhausted LONG before the show wraps. Best you can do is what Debbie did. Throttle back until the UPS is stable.
Chris.
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What ARE your UPSes rated for, anyhow?
I don't UPS any of my live audio gear since "big enough" UPSes are expensive. Keep in mind, too, that long runs of copper between your UPS and the hot bus in the building's breaker bus can really cause the line voltage to drop when lots of power is flowing.
Those iNuke and IPR-style amps, for example .. they can (for a few ms) draw WAY more than 15A of power.
The UPS ONLY had the mixer connected to it but was itself connected to one of the shared circuits used by one side of the PA. I took it that the way the UPS went back and forth from mains to battery on sub hits was simply an indication that the circuit was at capacity ( 1 x SRX828, 1x SRX815 and Mixer) . That should not have happened unless the circuit was not dedicated as promised.
If I had known this earlier, I could have brought my 10AWG extensions and looked for more circuits - they were probably a distance from the stage ( one of the 2 I was using already was) so I would have had to do a lot of taping down but it would have made sure I got all the power I needed.
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Ummm. UPS for controls, NOT amplification or lighting.
That's what Genny's are for.
I have also had "dodgy" power. Every shot of the Kick dims the littlelites.
Thing is, a UPS that is constantly going to battery is going to be exhausted LONG before the show wraps. Best you can do is what Debbie did. Throttle back until the UPS is stable.
Chris.
Yes Chris - as soon as I dropped only 3db on the master, the UPS was happy again and so were the speakers. It was the simple fix to everything. I just don't like to see clipping EVER and I am always so careful with my equipment.
HOWEVER - I dropped back 6-9db to be safe and it was still LOUD!
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Yes Chris - as soon as I dropped only 3db on the master, the UPS was happy again and so were the speakers. It was the simple fix to everything. I just don't like to see clipping EVER and I am always so careful with my equipment.
HOWEVER - I dropped back 6-9db to be safe and it was still LOUD!
The limiters in the system are designed to prevent clipping. You should never encounter clipping on a properly designed powered box.
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The limiters in the system are designed to prevent clipping. You should never encounter clipping on a properly designed powered box.
You can clip anything if you feed it a sufficiently hot signal. You know better, Scott.
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But don't the limiters limit?
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Might not have been clipping. On some boxes the red indicator simply says peak.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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But don't the limiters limit?
By definition, yes. They should prevent hard-clipped signals reaching the drivers.
I think Tim's point is you can clip the input circuitry on anything you like. No amount of limiting will save you when you've clipped the input stage.
Imagine taking the output from a power amp, and plugging it into an active speaker. Run the power amp up, and even keeping the volume very low on the active speaker will give a distorted sound.
Doesn't happen much, but very possible.
Chris
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I was surprised this happened - especially because the levels on the mixer were only in the yellow - but it did. The LCD panels were showing "LIMITING'. I had the masters on all the subs at 10 to start and 8 on the tops (max 12) before I kicked everything down.
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I just read that the limiters on the SRX800 series are preset to -10db from factory and I have never changed them. It is also common knowledge that the SRX series tend to limit early - so maybe I was unnecessarily worrying and in fact the speakers were not clipping at all. Maybe the smell that guy mentioned was something else - perhaps someone managed to smoke a cigarette somewhere... who knows.
The more I think about it, the more it seems unlikely that 4 SRX18" subs and 2 15" tops would be pushed beyond their limits in a room the size we were in. It was nice and loud but not like 'rave' loud.
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I just read that the limiters on the SRX800 series are preset to -10db from factory and I have never changed them.
And how far from 0dBFS is "into the yellow" on your QU?
It is also common knowledge that the SRX series tend to limit early - so maybe I was unnecessarily worrying and in fact the speakers were not clipping at all.
I'll restate what I believe Scott was attempting to say.. You will never clip the amps inside those boxes but you could potentially clip the input stage.. although that too would be difficult with the input compression/limiting that is in place.
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You can clip anything if you feed it a sufficiently hot signal. You know better, Scott.
I understand that you can clip the input. Contextually I think we are talking about output clipping and I stand by my statement that the protection in a good powered speaker should prevent output clipping.
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And how far from 0dBFS is "into the yellow" on your QU?
I'll restate what I believe Scott was attempting to say.. You will never clip the amps inside those boxes but you could potentially clip the input stage.. although that too would be difficult with the input compression/limiting that is in place.
I replied before I read your response. That's exactly what I meant. We were not talking about input clipping. Clearly since we were talking about the power consumption of the amplifier the entire context was driving the output too hard. My point was not only was that not happening, you were probably just into early limiting.
Modern powered speakers can take a surprising amount of operation in constant limiting.
I also would state that even if you drove the input stage into hard clipping the output should be protected. Most certainly in an SRX.
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I just read that the limiters on the SRX800 series are preset to -10db from factory and I have never changed them. It is also common knowledge that the SRX series tend to limit early - so maybe I was unnecessarily worrying and in fact the speakers were not clipping at all. Maybe the smell that guy mentioned was something else - perhaps someone managed to smoke a cigarette somewhere... who knows.
The more I think about it, the more it seems unlikely that 4 SRX18" subs and 2 15" tops would be pushed beyond their limits in a room the size we were in. It was nice and loud but not like 'rave' loud.
I see that on my 818 subs on every kick hit when I'm running it wide open, which is most of the time. Not only are the boxes well protected, but you don't hear it as well. It's a nice, powered system. I just need to double up on my subs, and I'll be happy.
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I see that on my 818 subs on every kick hit when I'm running it wide open, which is most of the time. Not only are the boxes well protected, but you don't hear it as well. It's a nice, powered system. I just need to double up on my subs, and I'll be happy.
Good to hear Steve - definitely sounds like I was worrying unnecessarily. How many subs do you have now and which model tops?
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Good to hear Steve - definitely sounds like I was worrying unnecessarily. How many subs do you have now and which model tops?
(1) 818 and (1) 815 per side.
I want to now get an 828, leaving me with a nice, scaleable system, but I don't have the transport room. If this year goes well, I'm going to start looking in to a full-size or extended van.
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(1) 818 and (1) 815 per side.
I want to now get an 828, leaving me with a nice, scaleable system, but I don't have the transport room. If this year goes well, I'm going to start looking in to a full-size or extended van.
When we add the 828 to the set, we have to use either the trailer or add a vehicle if local. That thing is about as compact as it gets for a 2x18" but is still too much of a beast ( with everything else) for anything other than a van.
I enjoy using 2x SRX818's and the SRX828 for the slightly bigger shows - I feel like you do that it makes the system very scaleable and remains extremely manageable. I can even load the SRX828 on my own into the mini van using the tilt and push method.