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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Console Connectivity Solutions => Topic started by: George Reiswig on October 20, 2023, 01:24:50 PM
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I'm fairly tech-savvy, but things like this make me think "maybe not." I know roughly what the difference is between these two categories of devices, but I'm not really sure why one might choose one over the other for something where internet service isn't needed, such as when just enabling control of main and monitor mix on a digital console with an ethernet port.
Are there distinct advantages and disadvantages? Or does one need both? Is there a primer somewhere on this topic that I can read up on?
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Most common home internet devices are 3 or more things.
1. WIFI Access point. The job of a WIFI access point is to allow a wireless connection on to your wired network. That's it. That's the device you absolutely need for wireless devices to connect to your network. If you only have an access point, you may need to manually assign IP addresses to your devices, although some have auto discovery and assignment these days.
2. DHCP server - This is a controller on your network that hands out IP addresses to devices on the network. If you manually assign IP addresses, this isn't necessary, although it's convenient.
3. Router - This routes traffic between different networks. Local traffic on the same subnet talks directly device to device, but if it needs to get to another network, it needs to go through a router. Typically to get to the internet, either your ISP provides a router on their end and every device on your network talks to that remote router, or you put your own in.
4. NAT server - This is a subset of a router. What this does is direct traffic from a single IP address to multiple devices inside the network. This way, to the internet everything appears as one device, but traffic gets where it needs to go. Due to the limited number of IP addresses, NAT servers are a critical part of the internet.
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Most common home internet devices are 3 or more things.
1. WIFI Access point. The job of a WIFI access point is to allow a wireless connection on to your wired network. That's it. That's the device you absolutely need for wireless devices to connect to your network. If you only have an access point, you may need to manually assign IP addresses to your devices, although some have auto discovery and assignment these days.
2. DHCP server - This is a controller on your network that hands out IP addresses to devices on the network. If you manually assign IP addresses, this isn't necessary, although it's convenient.
3. Router - This routes traffic between different networks. Local traffic on the same subnet talks directly device to device, but if it needs to get to another network, it needs to go through a router. Typically to get to the internet, either your ISP provides a router on their end and every device on your network talks to that remote router, or you put your own in.
4. NAT server - This is a subset of a router. What this does is direct traffic from a single IP address to multiple devices inside the network. This way, to the internet everything appears as one device, but traffic gets where it needs to go. Due to the limited number of IP addresses, NAT servers are a critical part of the internet.
Brian is correct.
For wireless mixing, only an access point is needed. Disadvantage is one has to manually keep track and assign all IP addresses. Some feel this is superior to using a DHCP server. Me, I'm lazy and I like the convenience of DHCP. YMMV.
I have never seen an access point with a DHCP server. That function is usually part and parcel of a router package, along with NAT server. The reason I'd guess, is that one does not want to run multiple DHCP servers. Products are mostly marketed as people use them. We're pretty much talking home and SOHO gear.
I've seen router package Routing, NAT, and DHCP in the same box - fairly normal.
Then there is the all-in-one, as Brian described.
Finally, the "mostly featureless" WiFi access point.
As Brian noted, the Routing and NAT functions are more appropriate where there are multiple networks, i.e., Internet is involved.
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I have never seen an access point with a DHCP server.
They exist, but sometimes you need to search for it. Here is a page that I have bookmarked to find it on a few of the units I own.
https://doctorengenius.engeniustech.com/en/articles/6709069-how-can-i-find-the-dhcp-server-on-eap300v2-access-point-mode
Its also not a feature that commonly shows up in spec sheets for APs...so...YMMV
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One not insignificant point in choosing your wifi hardware configuration is that a wifi access point can be much smaller than a consumer router + switch + wifi AP. This is important anyplace that is densely packed with large bags of salt water - AKA audience members. Getting your wifi antennas above head height is the first step in reliable communication with iPad type devices. The switch with or without a router capability can be at the console while the small AP like the Unifi AC is small enough to go on a mic stand boom.
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I have never seen an access point with a DHCP server.
IIRC Dr Ault was working on one solution but I don’t recall him ever reporting back on his explorations.
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IIRC Dr Ault was working on one solution but I don’t recall him ever reporting back on his explorations.
This has all been helpful, so thank everyone for sharing their knowledge. It fits with what my perception had been before, but adds some really valuable detail.
DHCP would be more convenient, I imagine, when giving band members access to the mixer to adjust their own monitors: just providing the network name and a password is likely a lot easier, right?
I noticed the Cisco AP with DHCP mentioned earlier in the thread has been discontinued. Is there anywhere a list of APs that seem to work well for people, and maybe includes whether dynamic protocols are even an option?
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IIRC Dr Ault was working on one solution but I don’t recall him ever reporting back on his explorations.
The Microtik Metal 52 happens to run the routerboard OS including a DHCP server!
It is very fairly priced and I use a band clamp to attach a 2” atlas extension to the AP so it can go on any mic stand.
The routerboard OS is full feature so it does all sorts of tricks. You can configure the port with 802.1q clan trunking. Each vlan can be assigned a different ssid creating as many wireless networks as you may need. I have never tried it because the AP does not have a hardware routing chip but if you had a need to forward some packets between vlans you might be able to get away with that but I would watch CPU usage carefully as you don’t want to impact AP performance playing tricks.
Speaking of monitoring the web interface has a great monitoring utility but if you want to collect stats the well documented SNMP MIB will give you tons of data on performance.
Don’t worry if none of that means anything to you. You don’t need to know what any of that means to use it as an access point. A setup utility allows you to choose access point and it will configure that role for you. Set your IP network and get ready to rock and roll.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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The Microtik Metal 52 happens to run the routerboard OS including a DHCP server!
It is very fairly priced and I use a band clamp to attach a 2” atlas extension to the AP so it can go on any mic stand.
The routerboard OS is full feature so it does all sorts of tricks. You can configure the port with 802.1q clan trunking. Each vlan can be assigned a different ssid creating as many wireless networks as you may need. I have never tried it because the AP does not have a hardware routing chip but if you had a need to forward some packets between vlans you might be able to get away with that but I would watch CPU usage carefully as you don’t want to impact AP performance playing tricks.
Speaking of monitoring the web interface has a great monitoring utility but if you want to collect stats the well documented SNMP MIB will give you tons of data on performance.
Don’t worry if none of that means anything to you. You don’t need to know what any of that means to use it as an access point. A setup utility allows you to choose access point and it will configure that role for you. Set your IP network and get ready to rock and roll.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I assume you’d still need a POE injector in your rack?
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I assume you’d still need a POE injector in your rack?
Yes, it includes one or you can use a switch with POE.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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IIRC Dr Ault was working on one solution but I don’t recall him ever reporting back on his explorations. {emphasis added}
I'm not sure if this is meant to be a compliment or a slight. :P
My experimentation with OpenWRT on a UniFI Mesh AP got put on hold due to higher priority activities getting in the way, and also because I hit a weird snag (namely that "stock firmware" + "my Android phone with a static IPv4 address" has been working stably for years, but "OpenWRT" + "my Android phone with a static IPv4 address" caused a connection loop so bad that the phone actually ended up rebooting itself). The experimentation will continue, but at this point probably not until November.
-Russ
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I'm not sure if this is meant to be a compliment or a slight. :P
My experimentation with OpenWRT on a UniFI Mesh AP got put on hold due to higher priority activities getting in the way, and also because I hit a weird snag (namely that "stock firmware" + "my Android phone with a static IPv4 address" has been working stably for years, but "OpenWRT" + "my Android phone with a static IPv4 address" caused a connection loop so bad that the phone actually ended up rebooting itself). The experimentation will continue, but at this point probably not until November.
-Russ
Russ,
I sure it was meant as a compliment ;) As we all know, real life always seems to get in the way. Life and work are just four letter words, among others we use under pressure. We're interested in your results, when (and if) you get back to us.
frank
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I'm not sure if this is meant to be a compliment or a slight. :P
Definitely a compliment sir. No slight intended.
….well, OK, I guess a slight (hopefully respectful) tease in recognition of the knowledge, willingness to research, and ability to communicate you bring to these discussions. Thanks for the update on your explorations with OpenWRT.
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I've always used wireless routers. The 4 or 5 hardwire ports come in handy for connecting non wifi gear to the network. Plus it has the DHCP server and other features that may be useful.
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I've always used wireless routers. The 4 or 5 hardwire ports come in handy for connecting non wifi gear to the network. Plus it has the DHCP server and other features that may be useful.
Did you see my quote on the Microtik AP's they have DHCP server. The quality of the AP in a router is poor compared to a dedicated AP.
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Did you see my quote on the Microtik AP's they have DHCP server. The quality of the AP in a router is poor compared to a dedicated AP.
I don't have a very complicated wifi setup so I've never had issues. If I did need a complex reliable system, I'd probably go with AP's connected to a router. Microtic router with Aruba AP's if I had the budget.
I have to say that I'm impressed with the Microtik router we have that handles 100 AP's for one of our hotel wings. Easy setup and totally (knock on wood) reliable for a year and a half. The one you mentioned looks like an outdoor unit and only seems to have one port so I'd need a switch with that one for my setup.
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{...} The one you mentioned {...} only seems to have one port so I'd need a switch with that one for my setup.
This is actually a feature, not a bug: Wi-Fi is even more line-of-sight-dependent than wireless microphones, which means that the best place to put an AP is almost never the best place to put a switch. Leave the switch in a rack (or doghouse) with the rest of the gear, and mount the AP to something tall.
-Russ
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This is actually a feature, not a bug: Wi-Fi is even more line-of-sight-dependent than wireless microphones, which means that the best place to put an AP is almost never the best place to put a switch. Leave the switch in a rack (or doghouse) with the rest of the gear, and mount the AP to something tall.
-Russ
Good point.
My needs are basic. I have my DSP and 2 - X32's plugged into my router and my laptop (PC) connected with wifi to control the processor. It's an older router but it's been rock solid. If I was having problems, I would either tie into the Aruba system in the room or do a dedicated router/AP setup.
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I have been using separate access points for years now. First, EnGenius, then Ubiquity, and currently Microtiks. They are easy to deploy and elevate, and they tend to be more powerful than your standard wifi router. I tend to use them with a router but, assign static ips to most of my devices and just have a small DCHP range for those time when someone comes in with their own device. I am also currently using some Microtik bridges in some of my racks for DSP and monitoring.
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I have been using separate access points for years now. First, EnGenius, then Ubiquity, and currently Microtiks. They are easy to deploy and elevate, and they tend to be more powerful than your standard wifi router. I tend to use them with a router but, assign static ips to most of my devices and just have a small DCHP range for those time when someone comes in with their own device. I am also currently using some Microtik bridges in some of my racks for DSP and monitoring.
I can't believe I missed this little win. My new iPad AIR's, and Pro support 6Ghz. I am thinking of picking up a 6Ghz Microtik AP. That should solve the audience degradation issue. Just the engineer will be on the 6 Ghz network. In my experience the only time it is important is setting up the monitors and they are mostly onstage. FOH work takes place at (drum roll) FOH.
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I can't believe I missed this little win. My new iPad AIR's, and Pro support 6Ghz. I am thinking of picking up a 6Ghz Microtik AP. That should solve the audience degradation issue. Just the engineer will be on the 6 Ghz network. In my experience the only time it is important is setting up the monitors and they are mostly onstage. FOH work takes place at (drum roll) FOH.
6GHz WIFI would help against WIFI congestion in the 5ghz band, but range definitely requires line of sight. Through a sea of people, chances are your device will drop down to 5ghz anyway. On stage if the access point is on stage, you should be able to get 6ghz to work well.