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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Lighting Forum => Topic started by: William Schnake on May 06, 2019, 11:30:19 PM
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For the last several years we have been adding lights made in China. They have served us well and we have a selection of 7 x 8 RGBAWuV and 18 x 18 RGBAWuV, all IP65 rated. We also have some movers. We are moving up in our area and working with larger venues and more prominent artist. I realize that for are largest shows we will still have to rent some if not all of our lights. We are never going to be purchasing Mac Vipers. However, I want to start moving to a better more acceptable name brand light for our mid-size shows so we get away from the expense of renting.
So here is where we are. Most of our shows are with artist who were big somewhere between 1977 and 2009. None of them are current 'A' list artist. However, over 50 percent of them have light spec that we could not currently meet. When ask what they want they almost always come back with nothing from China and Pro level lights...whatever that means. However what I have noticed, with the exception of one artist, they don't have to have exactly what is on their rider as long as what they get looks and works well and is a name brand. All of them want moving eye-candy.
Most of these shows are outside on a deck that is generally 40 wide X 32 deep. Trim height is usually 16' above the stage. I am thinking of starting with (6) Chauvet Rogue R1 FX-B, (24) COLORdash Par H12IP and 8 Rogue R2X Spots. I am looking at this setup being able to do 90 percent of all our shows without any additional rentals. This would be a 2 year build for our company. Most of these shows are attended by 3,000 - 4,000 people.
I should have said upfront that we are mainly a sound production company and lights are an after thought.
Is it worth throwing into the Chauvet Pro camp or not. Thoughts and insights please...oh and none of this will include the new controller we will have to purchase.
Thanks
Bill
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In your market Elation and Chauvet's "pro" lines are fine. Just be aware of a few things.
If you buy "pixel" devices a touring LD may not have enough Universes to run it and might ask you to put them in dumb mode. Touring guys are often already running their own ground package for eye candy and just want your rig to cover the basic washes. I know our fairly simple rig was 2 universes already. We had a roadhog with 4 universes onboard and ran into issues sometimes when the house rig was too large.
Anybody in your market would be thrilled with some Colorado Tri-tours and a small pile of Platinum Beam 5R's or similar. You don't have to get fancy. Mac 101's are always appreciated too even if they are old.
Just make sure that your lights are name-brand and working. You'll make LD's happy. They don't have to be fancy at all. With that in mind I would drop the multihead things and buy more of the single head fixture. K.I.S.S. is the name of the game.
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Anybody in your market would be thrilled with some Colorado Tri-tours and a small pile of Platinum Beam 5R's or similar. You don't have to get fancy. Mac 101's are always appreciated too even if they are old.
Just make sure that your lights are name-brand and working. You'll make LD's happy. They don't have to be fancy at all. With that in mind I would drop the multihead things and buy more of the single head fixture. K.I.S.S. is the name of the game.
Tim, thanks for the response. Definitely some great advice. I would like to keep the pars IP65 since we do a large amount of outside festivals between April and October. That is part of the appeal of the COLORdash PAR H12IP.
Part of my life is spent being the BE for a band that had a few hits back in the late 70's and early 80's. We did a show a few weeks ago where the light provider brought some Rogue R2X Spots. They looked great. That is why I was thinking that I would like to have some. We would be moving from the Chauvet DJ Intimidator 350 LED Spots.
I have mapped all of this out and it can easily be done in 2 universes. We are currently using ONYX so I will probably get an ONYX controller that can handle 4 universes to be on the safe side. That being said I am definitely not strictly look at ONYX controllers. Really on the controller side I just want to make sure it is something that we can program and use or if the act has it's own LD we can program the controller and he/she can be comfortable on it.
We just did a 5 band festival this weekend and only one of the acts had their own LD. Probably 80 percent of what we will be doing will be ran by us and just needs to look good with name fixtures. The other 20 percent will be ran by a band LD. As you said, and we have seen this in the past couple of years, some are traveling with their own light package and all we would need to add would be the LED Pars for the most part.
Thanks again for your input. Life was so much easier when we were just a sound production company.
Bill
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Hi Bill, it sounds like you have a nice plan in place. I've said this in a few threads, but to me, the Rogue R1 Spot/Wash and R2 Spot/Wash are the industry's next Martin Mac 250/300 and Mac 500/600, respectively. Bright enough to be useful, small enough to be portable, rugged enough to handle professional use, and cheap enough for the upper-end weekend warriors to nearly every professional user/rental house to afford. If you've seen them and like them, then go for it! On the other hand, if you're really doing crowds of 4000 outdoors then you might want to look a step up to the Maverick Series. I don't have much real-world experience with these units but I believe TJ owns some. Maybe he can chime in.
I agree with Tim about the FX units - they're a love it or hate it effect that has limited use. I'd bin them with my Sniper Pros - they're an effect light that can do neat things but aren't going to be a staple of your rig. I'd vote to replace those with something like the Clay Paky B-EYE or Martin Mac Aura - both of which can do neat eye candy effects if desired but can also double as a generic wash light if needed. Some of the Beam/Spot/Wash Hybrids can also serve the same utility. Hope this helps!
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For non-moving washes, look at the Colorado Solo3. It is a zoomable wash with a homogenized lens, so cleaner light than the Colorado Quad 2 zoom, with similar output and a wider zoom range. Both are IP65. The zoominess makes them much more versatile than a fully static wash. PM me for pricing.
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A 2000 seat venue I tech at has Mavericks and is happy with them. We sometimes add our old Mac 600s on the deck for more options. We're using the Elation 910 RGBAL Source-4 clones for FOH and specials. The deck is 44' x 28' (upstage of the chalk line) and 12' thrust stage. Approx 20' trim height most of the time. COLORado RGBAL zoom wash lights.
As a lounge guy, the R1 and R2 units are nice, and a planned addition to my lighting inventory.
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Hi Bill, it sounds like you have a nice plan in place. I've said this in a few threads, but to me, the Rogue R1 Spot/Wash and R2 Spot/Wash are the industry's next Martin Mac 250/300 and Mac 500/600, respectively. Bright enough to be useful, small enough to be portable, rugged enough to handle professional use, and cheap enough for the upper-end weekend warriors to nearly every professional user/rental house to afford. If you've seen them and like them, then go for it! On the other hand, if you're really doing crowds of 4000 outdoors then you might want to look a step up to the Maverick Series. I don't have much real-world experience with these units but I believe TJ owns some. Maybe he can chime in.
I agree with Tim about the FX units - they're a love it or hate it effect that has limited use. I'd bin them with my Sniper Pros - they're an effect light that can do neat things but aren't going to be a staple of your rig. I'd vote to replace those with something like the Clay Paky B-EYE or Martin Mac Aura - both of which can do neat eye candy effects if desired but can also double as a generic wash light if needed. Some of the Beam/Spot/Wash Hybrids can also serve the same utility. Hope this helps!
Jeff, thanks for the reply. One of the lights that we have been renting for our largest shows is the Martin Mac Aura XB. For the bulk of our shows, they are out of the price of what my usage fee would have to be. I love the way they look. When we rent them, we generally are getting 12 of them. We only do about 4 shows a year where they insist on the Aura XB. I will look into the Maverick Series to see if we can swing the budget and get the ROI on them.
We are situated between Chicago, 3 hours north, St. Louis, 1.5 hours south and Indianapolis, 4.5 hours east. So we have work, but the question is can we keep getting enough work/rentals to make back the investment. We are really hitting the St. Louis market this year which is great and definitely helps the bottom line.
Thanks
Bill
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Most proper LD's will bring their own consoles or spec the desk they need. 9 times out of 10 that will be a Hog or a GrandMA. Those two still rule the concert lighting scene.
If you just WANT those multihead fixtures, that's fine and I bet some guys will take the time to learn them and program them into their show, but some won't. They'll just opt to keep them dark and use the fixtures they know, or have profiles for.
My suggestion was to just get more of the fixtures that will be requested, ie; a wash par, a moving wash, and a moving spot or beam. You can do a lot with 12 moving washes, 8 moving spots, and a par wash.
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Jeff, thanks for the reply. One of the lights that we have been renting for our largest shows is the Martin Mac Aura XB. For the bulk of our shows, they are out of the price of what my usage fee would have to be. I love the way they look. When we rent them, we generally are getting 12 of them. We only do about 4 shows a year where they insist on the Aura XB. I will look into the Maverick Series to see if we can swing the budget and get the ROI on them.
No worries! If you can't swing the cost you can always consider the Blizzard Lighting Stiletto GLO19. I don't have personal experience with the unit - I only know it exists and is similar to the Mac Aura. Of course that brings up the question of Blizzard being professional enough for you and if it will be an acceptable substitute for the real deal, but it's also only third of the price compared to the real deal.
One other thing to consider might be used units. While there are definitely pros and cons to this as well, buying used can get you Martin/HES/Clay Paky units for the price you'd be paying for Chauvet Pro in new condition. Having done sufficient homework I've never had major issues buying name-brand used, but your mileage may vary. Power limitations aside I'd always rather overspec fixtures then underspec. You'll have to figure out where that line is with your work to get you enough horsepower for 80+% of the jobs without overspending to cover the smaller ones. Hope this helps!
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If you can't swing the cost you can always consider the Blizzard Lighting Stiletto GLO19.
One other thing to consider might be used units. While there are definitely pros and cons to this as well, buying used can get you Martin/HES/Clay Paky units for the price you'd be paying for Chauvet Pro in new condition.
Jeff, I own some Bizzards that work great for strobe and other effects such as up-lighting. I plan on keeping them for those functions, but I am not a big fan of Blizzard. As far as used, I am trying to stay with new for warranty as well as Hopefully, getting something that is current.
We currently have 6 Mac 500s, but they are getting long in the tooth.
It might be better for me not to go with the standard Chauvet COLORdash Par H12IP non moving Par and instead go with a fewer number of moving head wash lights. I am not sure how that would workout.
The more I get into this the more I remember why I didn't want to get into the lighting side in the first place. In for a Penny, in for a pound...yes I am that old.
Bill
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Jeff, I own some Bizzards that work great for strobe and other effects such as up-lighting. I plan on keeping them for those functions, but I am not a big fan of Blizzard. As far as used, I am trying to stay with new for warranty as well as Hopefully, getting something that is current.
We currently have 6 Mac 500s, but they are getting long in the tooth.
It might be better for me not to go with the standard Chauvet COLORdash Par H12IP non moving Par and instead go with a fewer number of moving head wash lights. I am not sure how that would workout.
The more I get into this the more I remember why I didn't want to get into the lighting side in the first place. In for a Penny, in for a pound...yes I am that old.
Bill
Having more moving washes instead of pars is typically a great idea. You don't have to climb the truss to focus them! Although, if you go this route make sure these lights have a zoom function. You can get away without zoom in the rear, but up front it's necessary.
I will say, I picked up some Elation Fuze washes and could not be happier with them! The Z350's are really bright. I have 4 of them for front wash/specials along with traditional lekos. I have 8 Z120's for the rear eye candy and they work fantastic for that as well.
I love the fact the the Fuze wash has both movers and pars in the same family and all of them zoom. It's a really fantastic product. I have 10 Z175's for stage color, 4 Z350's for front wash, and 8 Z120's for rear wash.
I also love the fact that these have a lens so you only see one color. No lite-brites on stage anywhere. The Z350's are a great replacement for Studio Color's or Mac 600's. The fact that you can buy them in smaller fixtures and different configurations is just a bonus.
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Having more moving washes instead of pars is typically a great idea. You don't have to climb the truss to focus them! Although, if you go this route make sure these lights have a zoom function. You can get away without zoom in the rear, but up front it's necessary.
+ 1.
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For an old skool look, you could try the ADJ PAR Z120’s. Homogenized-beam RGBW LED, manual zoom, looks just like a 1978 vintage PAR 64 can, and you can vary from a wide flood to a narrow spot. I agree the Colorado Solos are more versatile with their motorized zoom.
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It might be better for me not to go with the standard Chauvet COLORdash Par H12IP non moving Par and instead go with a fewer number of moving head wash lights. I am not sure how that would workout.
I'm in agreement with the others as well in that moving washes tend to be more useful, especially as a mobile operator. Along these lines and since you mention older lights, I'll volunteer that I still maintain an inventory of High End Studio Beams for this purpose. One of these days I'll get around to retiring them for a modern LED alternative, but their 700w MSR lamp plus CMY mixing and frost/zoom/beam shaping in a sub-50 pound moving head is a tough act to beat (at least on a budget). The only thing that I currently own LED Pars for is truss warming, uplighting, and eye candy effects. All my washes are halogen and discharge - at least on jobs the size you're referencing.
The only thing to maybe consider the Pars for is if you need IP65. Even then, there continue to be more wet location use moving lights coming onto the market that are surprisingly reasonable in price.
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Tim, I am thinking about the largest deck that we would be covering without renting. It should be 40' wide x 32' deep. What if we did 8 Elation Z350 Fuze for a front wash and then on the back had something such as 6 Rogue R2X Spots up along with 12 Elation Fuze Z175? We could also put 2 Rouge R2X Spots on totems.
Is something like that workable or is it to small or to large?
Thanks Bill
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Hi Bill, it sounds like you have a nice plan in place. I've said this in a few threads, but to me, the Rogue R1 Spot/Wash and R2 Spot/Wash are the industry's next Martin Mac 250/300 and Mac 500/600, respectively. Bright enough to be useful, small enough to be portable, rugged enough to handle professional use, and cheap enough for the upper-end weekend warriors to nearly every professional user/rental house to afford. If you've seen them and like them, then go for it! On the other hand, if you're really doing crowds of 4000 outdoors then you might want to look a step up to the Maverick Series. I don't have much real-world experience with these units but I believe TJ owns some. Maybe he can chime in.
I agree with Tim about the FX units - they're a love it or hate it effect that has limited use. I'd bin them with my Sniper Pros - they're an effect light that can do neat things but aren't going to be a staple of your rig. I'd vote to replace those with something like the Clay Paky B-EYE or Martin Mac Aura - both of which can do neat eye candy effects if desired but can also double as a generic wash light if needed. Some of the Beam/Spot/Wash Hybrids can also serve the same utility. Hope this helps!
I have Rogue R2 wash units and Maverick MK2 spots. Both are very solid fixtures; neither are IP-rated. The cost of a moving wash head isn't that much more than a static wash head, and being able to tweak it sans-ladder is worth the extra money, IMO, if you can handle the extra DMX channels. The Rogues do a very decent 3000K warm white, too, so I have had no trouble using them as main front wash.
On the beam side - if you are looking for basic beam fixtures and are planning on aerial affects rather than projection, probably a larger number of lesser fixtures will be more valuable than a smaller number of more full-featured fixtures like Vipers or Maverick MK2s. I do more projection than beam stuff, so the larger fixtures were worth it for me. I don't have personal experience with the Rogue spot and beam fixtures, but if they're built like the Rogue wash fixtures, I'm sure they will be solid.
Generally speaking, the brighter the better. You can always dim a fixture down, but you're in trouble if you need more. Beam angle matters of course, but I wouldn't consider anything less than a 250w LED source for a spot/beam fixture, and more is better. The Maverick MK2s are a 440w source with 18,000 lumens of output which works for a 35° fixture. Somewhat less is probably OK if the fixture is narrower, but you will need to compensate with more fixtures.
For quasi-rider acceptability, I think the Chauvet Pro stuff will meet anyone's expectations that doesn't require specific models for their show.
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The more I get into this the more I remember why I didn't want to get into the lighting side in the first place.
I said in about 2005 that "I will never be a lighting guy". In the last few years I've done more lighting than audio, in part because the audio side is easier for me to hand over to a crew member (most mixers operate fundamentally the same, so once a board is patched anyone can mix on them), while the lighting side has a more specific knowledge set. I make more money on the lighting side than the audio side, too.
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Tim, I am thinking about the largest deck that we would be covering without renting. It should be 40' wide x 32' deep. What if we did 8 Elation Z350 Fuze for a front wash and then on the back had something such as 6 Rogue R2X Spots up along with 12 Elation Fuze Z175? We could also put 2 Rouge R2X Spots on totems.
Is something like that workable or is it to small or to large?
Thanks Bill
I think that would work well for you.