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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => AC Power and Grounding => Topic started by: Debbie Dunkley on September 14, 2018, 06:11:37 PM
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https://foxbaltimore.com/weather/hurricane-stories/hurricane-florence-claims-a-third-life
Plugging 'IN' a generator.
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Maybe he was using a cord with 2 male ends and was going to plug it into an outlet. I have seen this done before. The main breaker in the panel is turned off. This will only power circuts on that phase or 2 phases if they are using the 120/220v outlet on the genny. I do not recommend doing this. If this is what he did then its possible he touched the live male end of the cord.
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Maybe he was using a cord with 2 male ends and was going to plug it into an outlet. I have seen this done before. The main breaker in the panel is turned off. This will only power circuts on that phase or 2 phases if they are using the 120/220v outlet on the genny. I do not recommend doing this. If this is what he did then its possible he touched the live male end of the cord.
I have heard of this - very possible.
If this is the case then with linemen out there right now trying to get power back up for so many people, this is even more of a no-no as it can cause injury or worse to those guys too (from what I have read).
Governor Roy Cooper in both of his press conferences mentioned generators and to stay safe when using them.
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I have heard of this - very possible.
If this is the case then with linemen out there right now trying to get power back up for so many people, this is even more of a no-no as it can cause injury or worse to those guys too (from what I have read).
Governor Roy Cooper in both of his press conferences mentioned generators and to stay safe when using them.
I used to backfeed through my compressor box with the mains off then got off my lazy butt and put a transfer switch in.
If I accidently energized the mains and injured or killed a lineman I could never forgive myself.
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I used to backfeed through my compressor box with the mains off then got off my lazy butt and put a transfer switch in.
If I accidently energized the mains and injured or killed a lineman I could never forgive myself.
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i'm working through a backup rig for myself right now, and this very thing is policing my thoughts.
yeah, i'm smart enough to get a generator to make all my stuff work with Very little Cost. But... Doing it RIGHT means i don't hurt someone, and that's a principle i learned VERY quickly when i first got into this biz For Real.
So yeah. Do it right. Wire your stuff so it isn't live to the grid. i mean seriously. is this something that needs saying?....
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I used to backfeed through my compressor box with the mains off then got off my lazy butt and put a transfer switch in.
I hooked up a generator without a proper lockout at a friends house in New Jersey a few years ago during another hurricane, but I pulled the meter first and bagged the box so it was impossible to back feed into the power line. There were no other options since all generators and parts were sold out for hundreds of miles away. I happened to be driving back to the east coast from Chicago at the time, so I picked up a genny and a few blitz cans of gas at a Home Depot and drove it all the way to his house. His power was out for over a week, and once power was restored he called the power company and asked them to plug his meter back in and attach the security tag. I figured this was a the safest way to do an emergency generator hookup without the proper lockout or transfer switch.
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Energizing the lines is a real concern. Transformers work both ways, let us not forget. In response to this, as well as the possibility of errors on the power company's side, line workers usually ground nominally dead lines before touching them. But even so...
Have I ever used a double male cord? Well, let's just say it was under controlled laboratory conditions and performed by trained personnel :o :o
--Frank
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Energizing the lines is a real concern. Transformers work both ways, let us not forget. In response to this, as well as the possibility of errors on the power company's side, line workers usually ground nominally dead lines before touching them. But even so...
Have I ever used a double male cord? Well, let's just say it was under controlled laboratory conditions and performed by trained personnel :o :o
--Frank
My very old neighbor (now RIP) used a dual male extension cord to get power to his shed when the underground line was faulty... I tried very hard to discourage him for using it. If I had my way, I'd hard wire it into the shed power circuit so the free end was always cold, but then that becomes a hazard if the underground line ever gets repaired.
I bet that extension cord is still around, waiting to sting somebody who doesn't know about it, or worse. I probably need to ask his widow or son about that.
JR
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You can buy kits for most panels-I know for sure Square D- for about $50 that take maybe 30 minutes to install that interlock the main and usually the top right breaker.
Super easy install- I usually feed that breaker with a permanently installed cord that plugs into the genny. If bigger than a 6kw genny I'd probably leave a pigtail to wire in to the genny.
Genny's are useful tools-but better to do without electricity than be unsafe.
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You can buy kits for most panels-I know for sure Square D- for about $50 that take maybe 30 minutes to install that interlock the main and usually the top right breaker.
I'm getting ready to install one of these for my Dad next week. As you can see it's just a slider that only allows the generator circuit breaker to be turned ON if the Mains breaker is OFF, and vise versa. You just need to add the appropriate male inlet receptacle and cordset and you're in business.
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https://foxbaltimore.com/weather/hurricane- instories/hurricane-florence-claims-a-third-life
Note that here's the generator warning just issued by the NC Emergency Management department in response to this electrocution. Pretty lame that they don't mention anything about electrical hookups. They only warn everyone not to run your generator or charcoal grill near or inside of your house.
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You can buy kits for most panels-I know for sure Square D- for about $50 that take maybe 30 minutes to install that interlock the main and usually the top right breaker.
These lockouts are interesting. Thanks for pointing them out. Does anyone know how they fly with various AHJs? --Frank
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Most of my installs were inspected/passed by State of Iowa inspectors-they pretty much go by the book".
Most, if not all, of these devices are UL listed. I've used the Square D as well as the Milbank meter/main disconnect combo lockouts.
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I know this will sound like an incredibly dumb useless question...
With those panel lockouts, how does one tell when the power is restored?
My house was recently built in a community built nearly 50 years ago. When they ran power and phone to the house, it is not on any of the same circuits within two blocks of the house. Many, many times, either I am the only one on the block with power, or the only one without. I can't just look out and see what the neighbor's power is doing.
Back in the days of DSL, everyone on the block could get it, but I was too far from the switch. Another example of someone's interesting sense of humor...
I normally run my genny on extension cords through the house - a lousy solution, but I am "notified" when the power is back up.
Yes, a real transfer switch would solve that problem nicely.
frank
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Agreed-and to borrow another member's favorite line-the ideal answer for your situation "depends".
Last time I was without power it was an ice storm-the most important loads for me to power were my furnace and well pump-neither really conducive to plugging into a cord.
Testing to see if power is back on would be a manual test-backfed breaker off, main on, lights work or no? Generator could be left running with no ill effects.
The interlocks are a lot less expensive than a true transfer switch. Its been 10 years since I really needed a genny-so the trade off for convenience is a personal preference.
I installed a 50 kw genny with 3 transfer switches to cover 3 buildings a couple years ago. To my knowledge it has run for one 4 hour power outage-during mild spring weather.
To each his own-but if you can't justify the cost of a real transfer switch, for heaven's sake either use cords as you do or install an inexpensive interlock.
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I was planning to use this GenerLink meter/switch for my dad's generator, which would have provided automatic transfer to the generator when line power was lost, and initially my local AHJ said it would be approved. But when I ordered it from Home Depot I was notified by the parent company of my local power company that they were no longer approving it for use in their grid. Seemed like a really simple solution to use a 7kw Honda for my parent's rather modest power needs.
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A couple of quandries I see with this device:
1. It uses a 4 wire cord and my understanding requires an unbonded generator. I have never seen a 4 wire meter base-3 wires in, 3 wires out-neutral and ground bond at the panel. If there were a fault in the neutral from the meter to the panel the potential exists for the frame of the genny to have a potential higher than ground. A rather undesireable situation. Not even sure how to address this issue.
2. Lack of overcurrent protection in the device itself. Yes, you are required to use a genny with a breaker and yes the cord will only work with the correct size genny. Do you really think the guy that finds out his 6 kw genny won't run his AC and microwave at the same time is going to replace the Generlink when he buys a 10 kw genny? He'll probably cut the cord end off and install one that fits.
3. I also read where it falls into a "crack" in jurisdiction. Meters are POCO devices and governed by NESC and their regs-meter bases and all homeowner devices are NEC. Which is this?? Usually the customer is not allowed to have anything on the POCO side of the meter.
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Agreed-and to borrow another member's favorite line-the ideal answer for your situation "depends".
Last time I was without power it was an ice storm-the most important loads for me to power were my furnace and well pump-neither really conducive to plugging into a cord.
Testing to see if power is back on would be a manual test-backfed breaker off, main on, lights work or no? Generator could be left running with no ill effects.
The interlocks are a lot less expensive than a true transfer switch. Its been 10 years since I really needed a genny-so the trade off for convenience is a personal preference.
I installed a 50 kw genny with 3 transfer switches to cover 3 buildings a couple years ago. To my knowledge it has run for one 4 hour power outage-during mild spring weather.
To each his own-but if you can't justify the cost of a real transfer switch, for heaven's sake either use cords as you do or install an inexpensive interlock.
The periodic switch-check you described is the only way that I saw too. So it comes down which would be more of a PITA - running cords, probably in the dark, or switch/isolate the panel, flashlight in hand, and the periodic panel-check. I can tell you which would be easier to clean up...
The problem with any of the solutions is which requires less "training" for someone else to safely operate the alternate power should I not be there, even to a lesser extent, a transfer switch.
frank
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The problem with any of the solutions is which requires less "training" for someone else to safely operate the alternate power should I not be there, even to a lesser extent, a transfer switch.
I'm sure that many (or even most) of us on this forum would be able to do a safe emergency tie-in of a generator in disaster mode, but we really don't want the liability if somethings goes wrong. And I would NEVER trust my 89 year old dad to do more than throw the lockout/breaker and start the generator. I tried to talk him into a more permanent solution with a pad mounted generator and big propane tank, but my 87 year old mom thinks those big tanks are potential bombs, and won't have one on her property, buried or not. So we got him a Honda EU7000is generator and I'll add a lockout/breaker to his service panel. I don't think he'll ever really need it, but he'll have fun starting up the generator every few months and running it for an hour to keep it ready.
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A couple of quandries I see with this device:
1. It uses a 4 wire cord and my understanding requires an unbonded generator. I have never seen a 4 wire meter base-3 wires in, 3 wires out-neutral and ground bond at the panel. If there were a fault in the neutral from the meter to the panel the potential exists for the frame of the genny to have a potential higher than ground. A rather undesireable situation. Not even sure how to address this issue.
2. Lack of overcurrent protection in the device itself. Yes, you are required to use a genny with a breaker and yes the cord will only work with the correct size genny. Do you really think the guy that finds out his 6 kw genny won't run his AC and microwave at the same time is going to replace the Generlink when he buys a 10 kw genny? He'll probably cut the cord end off and install one that fits.
3. I also read where it falls into a "crack" in jurisdiction. Meters are POCO devices and governed by NESC and their regs-meter bases and all homeowner devices are NEC. Which is this?? Usually the customer is not allowed to have anything on the POCO side of the meter.
I don’t see the issue on #3. The meter is POCO and the socket is customer. The wires from the socket to panel are customer and the wires to the pole are POCO (mostly... I paid for them and they run under my driveway).
#2 the generator has over current protection.
My transfer switch doesn’t have over current protection. One input is protected by the generator main breaker and the other by a breaker in the upstream panel.
You cannot protect against people taking unlawful actions. Some actions (like changing a connector) are easier than others (replace a pad mounted 10kw generator with a 25kw).
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A couple of quandries I see with this device:
1. It uses a 4 wire cord and my understanding requires an unbonded generator. I have never seen a 4 wire meter base-3 wires in, 3 wires out-neutral and ground bond at the panel. If there were a fault in the neutral from the meter to the panel the potential exists for the frame of the genny to have a potential higher than ground. A rather undesireable situation. Not even sure how to address this issue.
The vast majority of portable generators in the 5kw to 7kw range (and ALL inverter generators I'm familiar with) have a floating/unbonded neutral, so I think that's a non-issue for most of these small genny installations. Of course, your mileage may vary...
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Right-except that by code the frame of that genny needs to be bonded to the grounding electrode system of the building being supplied. Most of us could do this easily with a piece of the correct size wire run though a window or door frame and a ground clamp-but the Generlink itself provides no way to do this-even though it uses a 4 wire cord-there simply are not enough wires from the meter to the panel to do this correctly.
Most inlets used in conjunction with a interlock or transfer switch will have four wires all the way to the panel (IF done correctly!)
I'm not attacking the product-it seems like an interesting solution-but unless we are OK with an exception to the bonding rules for services, it requires a little more than meets the eye.
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The problem I see with breaker interlocks is that if the panel cover is removed, there is no interlock so backfeeding is a distinct possibility.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that many homeowners remove the cover for some reason and never bother to reinstall it.
A proper break-before-make, double-throw transfer switch is still going to provide isolation even with the cover off or open. It's much more difficult to defeat isolation.
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The problem I see with breaker interlocks is that if the panel cover is removed, there is no interlock so backfeeding is a distinct possibility.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that many homeowners remove the cover for some reason and never bother to reinstall it.
A proper break-before-make, double-throw transfer switch is still going to provide isolation even with the cover off or open. It's much more difficult to defeat isolation.
We've made electricity too safe. More people need to die and more homes, businesses and other buildings need to burn to the ground before complacent persons will get the message that most of them have zero business opening breaker boxes or otherwise fooling with mains AC.
No, I'm not joking.
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We've made electricity too safe. More people need to die and more homes, businesses and other buildings need to burn to the ground before complacent persons will get the message that most of them have zero business opening breaker boxes or otherwise fooling with mains AC.
No, I'm not joking.
The same thing is true about gasoline used to power cars. Incredibly dangerous if mishandled.
The last time I checked electrocution deaths, many were engineers and technicians who should know better but became too comfortable around electricity.
Just like airline pilots who can't land planes without the computers this is the double edged sword of technology.
Self driving cars will mean less competent drivers, but fewer accidental deaths. It's just the unintended side effects of progress.
JR
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The problem I see with breaker interlocks is that if the panel cover is removed, there is no interlock so backfeeding is a distinct possibility.
That is why I really prefer the Milbank one that works with their meter/disconnects-it actually mounts to the main breaker so it is more in line with a true transfer switch. I live in a rural area where a meter/main is just a better solution than a meter right to a main panel in so many situations. On a new install, I can do a meter/main + interlock for quite a bit less than a true transfer.