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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Bob Faulkner on April 25, 2018, 07:53:49 AM
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Searched the forum looking for recommendations on stage stringers; not much returned for recommendations; what I did find for recommendations was in 2009.
I'm looking for recommendations/suggestions on stage stringers (Edison 15/20 amp receptacles only). I could build my own, but I simply do not have the time (and sometimes the patience).
Looked at KH Industries and "stayonline", these look great, but I'm not sure the level of quality (have not touched nor used them). I'm confident I need SOOW rated wire, but from there, that's about all I know; receptacle & box quality is important (maybe not hospital grade, but definitely not cheapest either).
Single phase power only.
Anyone use "stayonline" stringers?
Thanks.
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I'm looking for recommendations/suggestions on stage stringers (Edison 15/20 amp receptacles only). I could build my own, but I simply do not have the time (and sometimes the patience).
I am using OA Windsor powercon quadboxes, the quality is great. I built a plethora of SOOW cables, which were a pain (a little thick for easily putting the powercon connectors on).
I have had excellent results for cables built both by EMG and BTPA.
Check here (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,156506.0.html) for another forum thread.
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We have a hand-me-down stringer built by OA Windsor that has been indestructible.
As of late we've been having all our cable needs built by CBI, who I'm sure would be able to build one to spec at a fair price.
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Me thinks we should have this moved to AC and Power ?
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Me thinks we should have this moved to AC and Power ?
Maybe... but this is also a general interest topic. If it gets into the minutia of stringer construction it will probably get moved.
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Thanks for the suggestions.
Out of curiosity, I checked "stayonline" for what they can build (all appear to be custom); for 30' and 3 x duplex receptacles, the cost was $350.00 Wow!
Yes - I thought about starting this in the AC/power section, but was looking for suggestions of manufactures, rather than the technical side of it.
Thanks.
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Thanks for the suggestions.
Out of curiosity, I checked "stayonline" for what they can build (all appear to be custom); for 30' and 3 x duplex receptacles, the cost was $350.00 Wow!
Yes - I thought about starting this in the AC/power section, but was looking for suggestions of manufactures, rather than the technical side of it.
Thanks.
I didn't check Stayonline but OA Windsor ain't cheap, either. Our Windsor stringers that have been flawless since Day 1. The main upstage stringer was probably $600 or more by the time we were done but it's required zero maintenance other than checking terminal screws on the L21-30 once a year.
Depending on your aesthetic sensitivity the cheap and dirty way is one of these:
http://www.thetapeworks.com/tape/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=31_128&products_id=448
And tri-tap outlets for the single outlets on the stringer:
https://www.amazon.com/Watson-Tri-Tap-Power-Adapter-Black/dp/B00NLPOD4U
Or some variation on that theme...
All of the stuff is UL-listed and the stringer is STW (no "J" in the designation) so it's Code compliant.
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I have 2 50’ 8 outlet contractors extensions I use. One is black that was a hand me down. The other is Orange and grey from Home Depot’s Rigid brand. Cost effective. My stages have been code examined a couple of times and nobody has called me out on them.
I built a bunch of short tailed quad boxes that I scatter off them. Needless to say, the orange and grey one is generally back line ;-)
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We use OA Windsor boxes (I think we have around 16 of them now), connected by various lengths of 12/3 SOOW with PowerCon ends. Then we have a number of "feeder" cables that have an Edison on one end and PowerCon on the other, again, all in various lengths. Works really slick and everyone loves them.
That said, we were at a show in Chicago a few weekends ago, and partnered with another sound company. They provided PA duties for speaking sessions during the day, and we did live sound production at night (same stage/room).
They had these multiple outlet extension cords that were really pretty nice. I'm thinking about grabbing a few for our smaller indoor gigs:
https://www.badassextensioncords.com/multi-outlet-cords
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We use OA Windsor boxes (I think we have around 16 of them now), connected by various lengths of 12/3 SOOW with PowerCon ends. Then we have a number of "feeder" cables that have an Edison on one end and PowerCon on the other, again, all in various lengths. Works really slick and everyone loves them.
That said, we were at a show in Chicago a few weekends ago, and partnered with another sound company. They provided PA duties for speaking sessions during the day, and we did live sound production at night (same stage/room).
They had these multiple outlet extension cords that were really pretty nice. I'm thinking about grabbing a few for our smaller indoor gigs:
https://www.badassextensioncords.com/multi-outlet-cords
After having all SOOW feeders I can't deal with any plastic jacketed cable. It never rolls right, never lyes down correctly and it just feels cheap and consumer grade.
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Our Windsor stringers that have been flawless since Day 1.
Same here - another OA Windsor vote from me.
The other is Orange and grey from Home Depot’s Rigid brand. Cost effective. My stages have been code examined a couple of times and nobody has called me out on them.
Just because you can get away with it doesn't make it right. Also, nothing screams amateur hour like orange extension cords - just add some knots and duct tape to complete the low-budget fire hazard look!
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Same here - another OA Windsor vote from me.
Just because you can get away with it doesn't make it right. Also, nothing screams amateur hour like orange extension cords - just add some knots and duct tape to complete the low-budget fire hazard look!
Also power strips should be banished from stages. The switch provides an opportunity to fuck up,
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Many thanks for all the links provided! Including the link to this forum from a post about 3 years ago... I missed that one.
I hate having to keep buying the same items/products because they fall apart... I'm willing to spend the money to have something last and perform (i.e. Windsor, stayonline, etc...). But was hoping it would be a bit more affordable.
For sure, power-strips should be banished.
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Also power strips should be banished from stages. The switch provides an opportunity to fuck up,
I refer to them as “Off Switches” cause that is what happens at the worse possible time.
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I hate having to keep buying the same items/products because they fall apart... I'm willing to spend the money to have something last and perform (i.e. Windsor, stayonline, etc...). But was hoping it would be a bit more affordable.
Yeah, like so many things in this business you get what you pay for. If it's any consolation, my first OA Windsor purchase was about 10 years ago - not a single product has failed. The same boxes I used a decade ago just got loaded to go out again this weekend. As much as I'd rather spend the cash on something flashy with a higher return on investment, this is a neceassary evil too. Though they're not cheap, they last, and will pay for themselves several times over if your cheaper solution keeps falling apart.
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I have 10 OA Windsor quad boxes and not one issue in the past three years. You would really have to work at wrecking one of those boxes. Great product and Jim is a real nice guy!
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Somewhat OT, but I bypass the power switches in all my power strips. They start in the truck, but every week, someone asks for one.
Back on topic, to do this properly, it's costly (weather-resistant boxes from OA Windsor, or similar). But it's worth it, if you plan to stay in business.
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Power strips might be something we frown upon, but in the CorpAV world, they're requisite.
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Just because you can get away with it doesn't make it right. Also, nothing screams amateur hour like orange extension cords - just add some knots and duct tape to complete the low-budget fire hazard look!
Hence why the Or and gry is generally the backline feeder. Given it is a 30amp capable cord, I doubt that fire hazard is an issue. If it is, code here mandates a fire extinguisher stage left and right... still haven’t been shut down...
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Power strips might be something we frown upon, but in the CorpAV world, they're requisite.
To my eternal dismay. In corpy-world, mission-critical power distribution is regarded casually, and "assumed". Ditto WiFi.
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Also power strips should be banished from stages. The switch provides an opportunity to fuck up,
Not when they're disconnected.......
But I use metal quad-boxes instead.
Chris.
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I've got some flat power bars I use on my stages that I really like. Good outlets, good outlet spacing, compact, 6' cords with cord storage so there is some flexibility with their positioning. The 5-15P ends have been changed to something decently-made after I had a couple of ground pins go mysteriously missing. Musicians are always happy to have a nice 8-outlet drop exactly where they need it........and it prevents them from using their own crappy power bars.
The only thing I don't like about them is the off switch (I like that term!), which also doubles as a circuit breaker and pilot light.
I have half a mind to jump the switch so that's it's always on. And the jumper I would use would probably be a 10A fuse...at least that would keep the safety thing going on.
(Do any of those fancy big dollar boxes have fuses?)
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Anybody tried these new ones yet? I know they are an MI brand, but the other boxes are all checked. No switch, powercon in and thru, metal build
http://www.adj.com/pow-r-bar-link (http://www.adj.com/pow-r-bar-link)
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Anybody tried these new ones yet? I know they are an MI brand, but the other boxes are all checked. No switch, powercon in and thru, metal build
http://www.adj.com/pow-r-bar-link (http://www.adj.com/pow-r-bar-link)
Doesn't look as though they've shipped yet:
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I have a few if you're interested.
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Luke, where did you get those? No silly surge suppressors or off switches like the ADJ stuff.
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I have 2 50’ 8 outlet contractors extensions I use. One is black that was a hand me down. The other is Orange and grey from Home Depot’s Rigid brand. Cost effective. My stages have been code examined a couple of times and nobody has called me out on them.
I built a bunch of short tailed quad boxes that I scatter off them. Needless to say, the orange and grey one is generally back line ;-)
You could cover it with black Tech-Flex, if it truly becomes unbearable.
https://www.techflex.com
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Thanks for all the suggestions.
I've decided to go with OAWindsor.
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I wonder about the budget versions of some of these, the ones with the powercon-ish connectors. Red flags are the metal box and how the wires are circuited inside (and what gauge). Did they use crimped on terminals or solid wire and the stab holes. Too much to go wrong.
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I made the boxes myself. The prices of the retail stuff was just ridiculous. I liked the Whirlwind model and wanted a similar design. I sourced the boxes and went to town. I used REAL Neutrik connectors and the plug is a UL listed Leviton model. The wires are 12ga stranded and are tinned and attached to the duplex via the barrier strips. The Neutrik ends are soldered on as I felt it senseless to use the special terminals. The outlet is also wrapped two times around with 3M quality electrical tape to abate potential shorts and the screws coming loose. The grounds are all ganged together and the metal box is grounded. I used stainless steel screws where possible and all screws have locking nuts. The bottom of the box also has rubber feet that are screwed in with the enclosure screws. All wires are ran in such a way that they do not touch anything else and have an air gap around them.
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I made the boxes myself. The prices of the retail stuff was just ridiculous. I liked the Whirlwind model and wanted a similar design. I sourced the boxes and went to town. I used REAL Neutrik connectors and the plug is a UL listed Leviton model. The wires are 12ga stranded and are tinned and attached to the duplex via the barrier strips. The Neutrik ends are soldered on as I felt it senseless to use the special terminals. The outlet is also wrapped two times around with 3M quality electrical tape to abate potential shorts and the screws coming loose. The grounds are all ganged together and the metal box is grounded. I used stainless steel screws where possible and all screws have locking nuts. The bottom of the box also has rubber feet that are screwed in with the enclosure screws. All wires are ran in such a way that they do not touch anything else and have an air gap around them.
Tinning stranded wire to be terminated under screw pressure? Uh... "cold flow."
Soldering terminations? No. Prohibited by Code. There's a reason Neutrik put on tabs rather than solder cups. Use the right crimp connector.
Is the metal box connected to the EGC via exothermic bond or other Listed means?
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I made the boxes myself. The prices of the retail stuff was just ridiculous. I liked the Whirlwind model and wanted a similar design. I sourced the boxes and went to town. I used REAL Neutrik connectors and the plug is a UL listed Leviton model. The wires are 12ga stranded and are tinned and attached to the duplex via the barrier strips. The Neutrik ends are soldered on as I felt it senseless to use the special terminals. The outlet is also wrapped two times around with 3M quality electrical tape to abate potential shorts and the screws coming loose. The grounds are all ganged together and the metal box is grounded. I used stainless steel screws where possible and all screws have locking nuts. The bottom of the box also has rubber feet that are screwed in with the enclosure screws. All wires are ran in such a way that they do not touch anything else and have an air gap around them.
It looks nice.
Etape cannot be used for insulation. It has no actual value.
You should have used solid wire. Tinned stranded should never be used in compression fitting. It violates code.
Solder just is not used in electrical power wiring. Ever.
If the outlet cannot short, you don’t need tape. If it can, the tape is not useful.
Sorry for being a downer but while I like the concept, there are a few methods that don’t cut it for me.
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So I wonder then, how you can have solid wire that crimps to a spade connector that must be fitted perfectly to have no stresses upon everything? I.E. Solid wire does not crimp well and the connection quality isn't any better. The E-Tape is simply to keep screws from backing out and IF by any chance any piece of metal floats around in the box, it cannot touch two things at once. The duplex is grounded via the screws that hold it in place ( the three of them ) and the grounds that are bonded to it via the standard location.
I had figured soldering the connections on was against code, but solid wire doesn't crimp very well to spade connectors. Please advise.
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Yeah. Please advise. There's more than just Luke here that could general advice for building safe power distro.
I would have used stranded wire in this scenario, but I would have just slipped it into the fitting on the powerCON and screwed it down. I'm honestly confused why anybody would add a spade connector here.
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Yeah. Please advise. There's more than just Luke here that could general advice for building safe power distro.
...I would have just slipped it into the fitting on the powerCON and screwed it down. I'm honestly confused why anybody would add a spade connector here.
They panelmount versions only come with spade connectors as far as I’m aware...you’re probably thinking of the cablount version, or it’s lower-ampacity cousin, the Speakon connector.
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You could cover it with black Tech-Flex, if it truly becomes unbearable.
https://www.techflex.com
Yah, but supplying to backline or lighting ... not unbearable to me... besides it’s been in service long enough that the orange which wasn’t bright to begin with is pretty dull now.
I do have a couple of 25 and 50 footers in bright, screaming cheap orange at the bottom of my GAK tub. Just in case. Haven’t had em out in years... there’s gotta have and nice to have. All matching black extension cords haven’t gone above the line yet ;-)
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It looks nice.
Etape cannot be used for insulation. It has no actual value.
You should have used solid wire. Tinned stranded should never be used in compression fitting. It violates code.
Solder just is not used in electrical power wiring. Ever.
If the outlet cannot short, you don’t need tape. If it can, the tape is not useful.
Sorry for being a downer but while I like the concept, there are a few methods that don’t cut it for me.
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proper tape would be ok, 3m 130C comes to mind. good for 69Kv, but only 35Kv on buss bars.
Just don't get it where you don't want it. once its stuck its stuck.
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/37648O/scotch-linerless-rubber-splicing-tape-130c.pdf
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proper tape would be ok, 3m 130C comes to mind. good for 69Kv, but only 35Kv on buss bars.
Just don't get it where you don't want it. once its stuck its stuck.
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/37648O/scotch-linerless-rubber-splicing-tape-130c.pdf
Is it UL listed for 120/240v use in residential or commercial spaces? I don't see a UL listing on the data sheet...
Re: your signature line... consider Karaoke Hosting. It would be nice to hear even the bad singers not distorted, too loud or with inappropriate SFX... and a sound guy/gal can do that but DJs with an extra mic cannot. ;)
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The E-Tape I used is a 3M made, Scotch branded vinyl electrical tape 700, which is UL listed. For its function, it is used as intended. I'm aware of cold flow with tinned leads in crimp connections, to which I could have just crimped the bare wire in the duplex. Still don't see how solid wire would be a better install? The spade connections do not provide any better, or reliable of a connection over that of a soldered one.
Those in the know, fill us in. I'm all about playing by the rules. The build of these boxes was done based on what made the most sense to me.
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The E-Tape I used is a 3M made, Scotch branded vinyl electrical tape 700, which is UL listed. For its function, it is used as intended. I'm aware of cold flow with tinned leads in crimp connections, to which I could have just crimped the bare wire in the duplex. Still don't see how solid wire would be a better install? The spade connections do not provide any better, or reliable of a connection over that of a soldered one.
Those in the know, fill us in. I'm all about playing by the rules. The build of these boxes was done based on what made the most sense to me.
The key thing in electrical is that a connection must first be a good mechanical bond. Solder is never a mechanical bond because of the cold flow.
So, if you had crimped either solid or stranded with a proper crimper then you would have achieved the mechanical bond you need. A proper crimp forces metal to metal making a gas tight connection. This simply means that oxygen doesn’t get between the parts and therefore corrosion doesn’t form in the joint.
Properly done it doesn’t need solder.
The other problem with solder as a mechanical component in power wiring is that over current situations can heat up the solder enough to flow and weaken the mechanical bond. In PC boards for electronics there is insufficient current flowing to affect the solder joint. On a power amp, for example, the power transistors will be bolted in place.
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The melting point of old fashioned tin lead solder is 183C, the most common lead free SAC305 is 212C. I've never heard of sufficient current in a consumer electronics device to get to those kinds of temperatures. A short in a 20+A AC feed could be a different story, I've never tested it.
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I went all Whirlwind PowerLink boxes a year + ago and will never go back. I have maybe 20 boxes now. A dozen 4ft, 12ft, 25ft powercon cables. They have been a surprising time saver and stack perfectly in a milk crate (which stacks perfectly in an EWI case) - russian doll.
I recently discovered this quad - its perfect if you do walk-on work at places or just to keep in your bag - https://bit.ly/2I2lTwI
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ADJ is expecting delivery on May 8th. I also spoke to Elation and it doesn't look like they will have a version.
Doesn't look as though they've shipped yet:
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Anybody looked at an "MPROW" box from eBay? Opinions?
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All,
Thanks again for the OA Windsor suggestion. Received a 30' stringer from Jim; great quality and build! He's now on my preferred vendor list.
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All,
Thanks again for the OA Windsor suggestion. Received a 30' stringer from Jim; great quality and build! He's now on my preferred vendor list.
Just to add to this list CBI makes a great Quad enclosure with either Powercon or the PowerCon TRUE1 inputs and outputs on it. I do also like the whirlwind PL1T-420-BK (the PL1 is PowerCon, PL1T is Powercon True1).
I have been using Powercon True1 for all my stringers and my racks, because they can be attached and removed underload.
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I made the boxes myself. The prices of the retail stuff was just ridiculous. I liked the Whirlwind model and wanted a similar design. I sourced the boxes and went to town. I used REAL Neutrik connectors and the plug is a UL listed Leviton model. The wires are 12ga stranded and are tinned and attached to the duplex via the barrier strips. The Neutrik ends are soldered on as I felt it senseless to use the special terminals. The outlet is also wrapped two times around with 3M quality electrical tape to abate potential shorts and the screws coming loose. The grounds are all ganged together and the metal box is grounded. I used stainless steel screws where possible and all screws have locking nuts. The bottom of the box also has rubber feet that are screwed in with the enclosure screws. All wires are ran in such a way that they do not touch anything else and have an air gap around them.
Luke,
I do like the look of these, just curious on how or where you sourced the enclosures? Did you design them and send them to someone like Ramtech to build the metal boxes for you?
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Yeah. Please advise. There's more than just Luke here that could general advice for building safe power distro.
I would have used stranded wire in this scenario, but I would have just slipped it into the fitting on the powerCON and screwed it down. I'm honestly confused why anybody would add a spade connector here.
The reason you won't get advice about distro building is *liability*.
Some general guidelines, though:
1 - EVERY wiring device & component should be UL Listed. Only certain PowerCon models are UL *recognized* See UL page here (http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=ECBT2.E135070&ccnshorttitle=Connectors+For+Use+In+Data,+Signal,+Control+And+Power+Applications+-+Component&objid=1073750442&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073749825&sequence=1). Other such items include lugs and terminals, any crimp connections, metallic enclosure grounding, etc.
2 - Every enclosure should be UL Listed for the purpose you will use it for. That means pre-punched metal junction boxes are not acceptable in portable use. Don't forget that cable strain reliefs must be Listed for both the enclosure type and cable type, too; i.e. no Romex® clips.
3 - You need to read and understand chunks of Chapters 2, 3, and 4 of NFPA 70, the "National Electrical Code". In spite of the name the Code is actually optional - it's a model Code presented to states, cities, counties and other political subdivisions for adoption as they see fit. Generally most jurisdictions have Code that is equal to or less restrictive than the NEC so compliance with it *usually* means you're good. Note that Los Angeles has more restrictive Code for public assembly areas, theaters & TV studios, and for portable power (mostly location film/TV shoots but apply most anywhere a real generator is used). Side bits - NFPA is the National Fire Protection Association, which like UL was created by insurers to minimize loss of life & property (and therefore pay out less in claims). Various industries are also represented in these associations for the purpose of creating Codes.
4 - Product liability insurance. Check into it, because unless you're a Registered Professional Engineer it's unlikely that your business or professional liability insurance covers losses from any *product* you design, create or make. If there is a loss and your product is even remotely connected to it you're in a very bad place... It is not necessary for your *product* to be sold or available to the public, only that you created, designed or built it and that it was subsequently implicated in a loss to property, personal injury or death.
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Hey all - thanks for the suggestions and for mentioning OA Windsor. Jim made me a couple of 30' cords; great craftsmanship!
Thanks again.
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This thread made me want another stringer so I ordered (3) more 3T-D boxes and now have a stringer up/down stage as well as half dozen individual 25’ quads to tag in where needed.