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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Nate Zifra on November 07, 2018, 01:12:06 PM
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Plenty of posts on active wedges come up in search.
As for passive wedges, it appeared the SRX712m was the winner. However, as they have been discontinued, and as those who have them tend to keep them, they are not super easy to find these days.
I've had the pleasure of working with the SRX712m, and I really like their weight/size/sound. Are there any current model alternatives that can meet the SRX712m specs (again, sound/weight/size/price point, and biampable option)?
Not looking to get into an active/passive speaker debate, just curious on what you all have come across recently or what seems to be popular these days in the passive world.
Thanks.
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Plenty of posts on active wedges come up in search.
As for passive wedges, it appeared the SRX712m was the winner. However, as they have been discontinued, and as those who have them tend to keep them, they are not super easy to find these days.
I've had the pleasure of working with the SRX712m, and I really like their weight/size/sound. Are there any current model alternatives that can meet the SRX712m specs (again, sound/weight/size/price point, and biampable option)?
Not looking to get into an active/passive speaker debate, just curious on what you all have come across recently or what seems to be popular these days in the passive world.
Thanks.
We have 20 SRX712m in our inventory and except for 4 of them, were purchased new after JBL officially discontinued them. They were produced in batches, apparently, because if you ordered them it could take 5 days or 3 months to receive them. We joked that JBL kept "finding some more in the warehouse."
Not sure if they still are finding them (you might check with a JBL dealer) or not, as 20 is sufficient for our needs. ;)
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I'm looking forward to get my hands on the new Yamaha CZR series, they look like a serious contender on a budget.
Apart from that I mostly run into d&b Max and EAW Microwedge these days. But they come with a different price tag.
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We have d&b Max2 and Radian Apex 1200s (the precursor to the "Microwedge). Both are great, but as mentioned, the d&b box is going to cost probably double what you're looking at. I see various Radians for sale for decent prices these days (including quite recently in the PSW Marketplace). The Radians are a nice "budget" solution for our clients.
I have seen some 712Ms used lately so they are out there and they are a great little box. EAW SM200 and other similar EAW 12" 2-ways are other great options that seem to come up fairly often online.
Those CZRs are pretty good looking. Probably worth a demo.
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Danley offers a few variations: SM80M (https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/synergy-molded-horns/sm80m/), SM100M (https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/synergy-molded-horns/sm100m/), SMLPM (https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/loud-speakers/synergy-molded-horns/sh-lpm/)....are you up against any riders? What sort of stage volume are you battling with?
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I was just checking out those CZR’s online yesterday. The Yamaha PX amps have available DSP settings for them.
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We're using Martin LE100's for our entry level passive 12" wedges. We've been quite happy with them
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So why not the SRX812? They've got wedge angles on them.
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We have 20 SRX712m in our inventory and except for 4 of them, were purchased new after JBL officially discontinued them. They were produced in batches, apparently, because if you ordered them it could take 5 days or 3 months to receive them. We joked that JBL kept "finding some more in the warehouse."
Not sure if they still are finding them (you might check with a JBL dealer) or not, as 20 is sufficient for our needs. ;)
The SRX712m is still available for order, at least here in Sweden. They are sold as spare part
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FBT has a couple of series that have 12" coaxial models and they have been well received. The EV Live X is another more budget minded model. You seem to be into upper-end equipment, so I would put money on The Martin LE100 stuff or similar. I have used the Martin LE100 recently and they sound pretty good and are resistant enough to feedback, but I do believe that you must Bi-Amp them to get that performance?
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Plenty of posts on active wedges come up in search.
As for passive wedges, it appeared the SRX712m was the winner. However, as they have been discontinued, and as those who have them tend to keep them, they are not super easy to find these days.
I've had the pleasure of working with the SRX712m, and I really like their weight/size/sound. Are there any current model alternatives that can meet the SRX712m specs (again, sound/weight/size/price point, and biampable option)?
Not looking to get into an active/passive speaker debate, just curious on what you all have come across recently or what seems to be popular these days in the passive world.
Thanks.
I ran into the same problem trying to get more 712Ms, I bought a couple of STX812M (and 815), before it too was discontinued. It's heavier, the dispersion pattern is different, but it does sound good, if you can find them.
One item of note, the 712 does require a kick in the pants (strong amp) to wake them up. I had a PLX3002 on them for a few years and didn't get all the hoopla, until I heard them with a Itech 4000. I'm mostly using a Crown XTi6002 on mine.
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I ran into the same problem trying to get more 712Ms, I bought a couple of STX812M (and 815), before it too was discontinued. It's heavier, the dispersion pattern is different, but it does sound good, if you can find them.
One item of note, the 712 does require a kick in the pants (strong amp) to wake them up. I had a PLX3002 on them for a few years and didn't get all the hoopla, until I heard them with a Itech 4000. I'm mostly using a Crown XTi6002 on mine.
I think the difference you heard was a low end PLX vs a higher end ITech. I don't think the SRX712m magically gets more voltage from Crown amps. Or maybe they do? Hmmmm.
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What would a rider friendly $1-2k passive wedge be?
I've heard the STX812 is very, very good monitor, especially with the iTech presets.
LE100 also looks good.
Any others?
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What would a rider friendly $1-2k passive wedge be?
I've heard the STX812 is very, very good monitor, especially with the iTech presets.
LE100 also looks good.
Any others?
Well, do you want close to $1,000 per box (pre-amp) or closer to $2,000 per box?
Right now on eBay there's some b-stock JBL M22s for just shy of $4k for a pair, so less than $2,000 per speaker. You can also always find Microwedges for about the same point ($1,500ish per box pre-amp), which will be a great choice.
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Well, do you want close to $1,000 per box (pre-amp) or closer to $2,000 per box?
Right now on eBay there's some b-stock JBL M22s for just shy of $4k for a pair, so less than $2,000 per speaker. You can also always find Microwedges for about the same point ($1,500ish per box pre-amp), which will be a great choice.
I think my main need would be that the band is super happy.
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A $1-2k wedge system that factors the speaker and the amp? If you have to buy an amp and speakers, you going to have a hard time getting a rider-friendly model. Good wedges start at the $1k mark and a proper amp to power them is usually another 2-4k.
What I consider to be rider acceptable starts with a JBL SRX-700 series box or similar. A proper I-Tech amp will set you back $2,500 per amp USED!!!! Even getting a more modest QSC PLD series amp is going to set you back between $1,500 and $3,500.
Going back to wedge options, I am not 100% sure what Martic LE's even cost? I see them going for about 1,150 on European sites, but not sure what that means to US and actual dealer sales? JBL SRX's are still demanding close to $1k. and other higher-end vendors typically require proprietary amplification unless sticking to the used market. I don't like buying speakers used. They are kinda like a box of chocolates.
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A $1-2k wedge system that factors the speaker and the amp? If you have to buy an amp and speakers, you going to have a hard time getting a rider-friendly model. Good wedges start at the $1k mark and a proper amp to power them is usually another 2-4k.
What I consider to be rider acceptable starts with a JBL SRX-700 series box or similar. A proper I-Tech amp will set you back $2,500 per amp USED!!!! Even getting a more modest QSC PLD series amp is going to set you back between $1,500 and $3,500.
Going back to wedge options, I am not 100% sure what Martic LE's even cost? I see them going for about 1,150 on European sites, but not sure what that means to US and actual dealer sales? JBL SRX's are still demanding close to $1k. and other higher-end vendors typically require proprietary amplification unless sticking to the used market. I don't like buying speakers used. They are kinda like a box of chocolates.
For me - just the speaker.
12" LE is passive
15" LE is passive/BiAmp
12" XE is passive/BiAmp
15" XE is BiAmp
$1500-$3.3k retail in above order.
PLD is going to be a good amp IMO.
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For me - just the speaker.
12" LE is passive
15" LE is passive/biamp
12" LE is passive/biamp
15" XE is biamp
$1500-$3.3k retail in above order.
PLD is going to be a good amp IMO.
Nathan,
Your "12" LE is passive/biam" should read 12" XE is passive/BiAmp.
I know it was a typo but for those following along at home...
Lee
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Nathan,
Your "12" LE is passive/biam" should read 12" XE is passive/BiAmp.
I know it was a typo but for those following along at home...
Lee
Thanks, fixed. I could have sworn I had it as XE when I posted...? I must be going crazy.
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Thanks, fixed. I could have sworn I had it as XE when I posted...? I must be going crazy.
Hard to go crazy if you already *are* :P
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Clair is selling off 12AM's at $2k for a pair in a split case on eBay.
What would a rider friendly $1-2k passive wedge be?
I've heard the STX812 is very, very good monitor, especially with the iTech presets.
LE100 also looks good.
Any others?
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For me - just the speaker.
12" LE is passive
15" LE is passive/BiAmp
12" XE is passive/BiAmp
15" XE is BiAmp
$1500-$3.3k retail in above order.
PLD is going to be a good amp IMO.
Get this rig you will never get another monitor complaint https://www.solarisnetwork.com/used/m2-stage-monitor/23638
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If you can get your hands on some used d&b Max, they should be right in the middle of your price range.
And, you don't need a d&b amp for them. Max an the new Max2 can run on any amp, it's the only d&b speakers with that feature.
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If you can get your hands on some used d&b Max, they should be right in the middle of your price range.
And, you don't need a d&b amp for them. Max an the new Max2 can run on any amp, it's the only d&b speakers with that feature.
Just make sure to get the Max 15. The Max 12 is imo not so great.
PS d&b D12 amps are quite cheap these days.
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Clair is selling off 12AM's at $2k for a pair in a split case on eBay.
Not passive, and you'd do well to buy whatever processing Clair still has for them. I'll say that if one were to go this way one could mostly ignore whining local musicians that don't like the wedge. "Good enough for Clapton, good enough for you... or 'no wedge for you today!'"
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It was my impression that in this case, passive meant "not self powered" as opposed to "contains passive crossover"
It is my understanding that Clair can supply 12AM presets for Lab Gruppen PLM amps and Lake Processors.
Not passive, and you'd do well to buy whatever processing Clair still has for them. I'll say that if one were to go this way one could mostly ignore whining local musicians that don't like the wedge. "Good enough for Clapton, good enough for you... or 'no wedge for you today!'"
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It was my impression that in this case, passive meant "not self powered" as opposed to "contains passive crossover"
It is my understanding that Clair can supply 12AM presets for Lab Gruppen PLM amps and Lake Processors.
They've been offering the original Lake-built processing at blow out prices but those units may be gone now.
We took a serious look at buying a 24 box, 16 mix rig of 12AM... and decided to rebuild our EV xW15 inventory instead mostly because it was cheaper. Probably 75% of the "bands you've heard of" shows we do are on band IEM rigs and we just supplement side fills and drum subs. The rest of our shows get the JBL SRX712m wedges.
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I'll say that if one were to go this way one could mostly ignore whining local musicians that don't like the wedge. "Good enough for Clapton, good enough for you... or 'no wedge for you today!'"
I think that's the real question I have.
Which monitors were/are used by 'band/player you've heard' of so I can tell local wannabe bands that complain about their monitor; "big name band you've heard of uses this so quit complaining."
Also, OP, sorry to hijack your thread a bit. Feel free to reign in control of your thread if this isn't helpful :)
Personally, I'd love to have Martin/Danley monitors (I think).
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I think that's the real question I have.
Which monitors were/are used by 'band/player you've heard' of so I can tell local wannabe bands that complain about their monitor; "big name band you've heard of uses this so quit complaining."
Maybe it's your mix not the monitors (running and ducking).
Chuck Negron, Taylor Dayne, Dazz Band, Confunction and Mixalis Xatzigiannis have all used my HPR's (probably a few other people you may have heard of). That doesn't make them great.
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Maybe it's your mix not the monitors (running and ducking).
Chuck Negron, Taylor Dayne, Dazz Band, Confunction and Mixalis Xatzigiannis have all used my HPR's (probably a few other people you may have heard of). That doesn't make them great.
Are those people we are supposed to have heard of?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Maybe it's your mix not the monitors (running and ducking).
Chuck Negron, Taylor Dayne, Dazz Band, Confunction and Mixalis Xatzigiannis have all used my HPR's (probably a few other people you may have heard of). That doesn't make them great.
:D I'm laughing pretty hard right now, great comeback!
Also, who are those people?
It could be since mostly I tell the band to download the monitor mix app for their IEM's and let them mix it themselves :P
In all seriousness, I've never had someone say they don't like the monitor or mix. I get many compliments on the overall show and they are always content with their mix. I'm anticipating when I take it to the next level and their ego (or mine) quadruples.
Also, I want it for myself, I always want better, and I'm considering two uber nice monitors to have a 6 piece monitor mix in addition to the 4 K12's I have. Needs to be able to also perform as a mains (pole mount) for smaller gigs.
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I was in the same boat about 6 months or so ago. I wanted a truly pro-level monitor that was powered, dual purpose and under $2k. I settled on the RCF NX12-SMA as it was well priced ( thanks Mr. Pyle!!!! ), and had the specs and operation capabilities I wanted. I pulled a win I think. I ended up putting a bid in on a show several weeks after my initial purchase where the band requested those exact monitors! I was shocked to see them on the rider and was happy to place the bid.
99% of local and C level acts don't really give a crap as long as they can read the name on the monitor and it is of equal or better quality than what they could potentially own. If you walk out there with a homemade box and it sucks, then yeah, they will be quick to talk smack. If you have K12's and the mix was good enough, you have to realize that 90% of the other places and shows they have played at also utilize the same grade of equipment and that the talent running it is likely also par for the course as well. Getting a true savant sound guy that can actually polish a turd is pretty rare, so having a speaker that is of a caliber that is one step above what most any musician can afford or even think of demanding, will generally be accepted. A great engineer can add that little bit more to any situation, but any good or reasonable engineer can get the job done acceptably without complaint regardless of the gear.
The point being, don't go shooting for top-shelf gear if you are not catering to top-shelf clients. That is a lot of money to spend on being a standout and only perhaps get a few clients per year that truly demand that caliber. Making money is sort of the name of the game and having top-shelf gear will help acquire it, but you can make a lot more money with lower cost gear. I wanted to hit the middle of the field and have something that I considered to be a step above the SRX, but not quite L'Acoustics, Meyer or D&B grade. I wanted to have really good stuff that was definitely better than anyone else in my area, but I didn't want to spend big boy money on it either. I now have a dual purpose speaker that is affordable for me and my clients and is a tier above what my direct competition has in stock.
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Also, who are those people?
You seriously have not ever heard of one person on that list?
Chuck Negron - Lead singer Three Dog Night
Taylor Dayne - String of cheezy hits in the 80's
Dazz Band - #1 Funk hit "Let it Whip" s
Confunction - Just beneath T.O.P and Roots in popularity
Mixalis - Greek pop star
I was also a joke, the HPR's are just a step above MI
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You seriously have not ever heard of one person on that list?
Honestly? No.
But I'm a completely demographic to you. I'm in the UK, and was born in 1994. Most of you here probably have equipment older than me. Heck, I've got equipment older than me.
My wedges were recently used by Jo, Brad and Tina of S-Club 7. They're not particularly nice boxes (just your standard passive 350w 12" 2-way box from 10 years ago), but I took the time to get out the measurement mic and get them sounding decent and made sure they covered the stage reasonably evenly. The result was they were happy and put on a great show.
On the subject of passive wedges of the DIY variety, I've ordered a nice 10" coaxial driver to play with, which has enough linear excursion on the 10" cone to produce a decent amount of low end - within a dB or two of the RCF 12", although in a much smaller box.
Something I'd like some opinions on, and I think you guys might find the idea quite neat:
Context first: passive wedges, only require one amp channel.
3x NL4 connectors:
4-pole in, THRU, and Mix 2 out.
Mix 1 on pins 1+/- on the NL4 in,
Mix 2 on pins 2+/- on the NL4 in.
THRU passes that out again
Mix 2 out puts the input 2+/- on to 1+/- on a seperate output.
So you can run 4x wedges with 2x mixes down one cable with a bit of patching between wedges:
NL4 into the first wedge (gets mix 1),
NL4 link to second wedge (also on mix 1)
Mix 2 out to third wedge (mix 2)
Finally, link to fourth wedge (mix 2)
I think that's a pretty neat idea. You could go further with an NL8 input and a crapload of NL4 outputs, but I think that's getting too complicated to cable reliably on a dark stage.
Running 2x mixes to the far end of the stage with one bit of 4-pole speakOn seems like a useful feature to have. If anyone can spot something wrong with it, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
Chris
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Honestly? No.
But I'm a completely demographic to you. I'm in the UK, and was born in 1994. Most of you here probably have equipment older than me. Heck, I've got equipment older than me.
My wedges were recently used by Jo, Brad and Tina of S-Club 7. They're not particularly nice boxes (just your standard passive 350w 12" 2-way box from 10 years ago), but I took the time to get out the measurement mic and get them sounding decent and made sure they covered the stage reasonably evenly. The result was they were happy and put on a great show.
On the subject of passive wedges of the DIY variety, I've ordered a nice 10" coaxial driver to play with, which has enough linear excursion on the 10" cone to produce a decent amount of low end - within a dB or two of the RCF 12", although in a much smaller box.
Something I'd like some opinions on, and I think you guys might find the idea quite neat:
Context first: passive wedges, only require one amp channel.
3x NL4 connectors:
4-pole in, THRU, and Mix 2 out.
Mix 1 on pins 1+/- on the NL4 in,
Mix 2 on pins 2+/- on the NL4 in.
THRU passes that out again
Mix 2 out puts the input 2+/- on to 1+/- on a seperate output.
So you can run 4x wedges with 2x mixes down one cable with a bit of patching between wedges:
NL4 into the first wedge (gets mix 1),
NL4 link to second wedge (also on mix 1)
Mix 2 out to third wedge (mix 2)
Finally, link to fourth wedge (mix 2)
I think that's a pretty neat idea. You could go further with an NL8 input and a crapload of NL4 outputs, but I think that's getting too complicated to cable reliably on a dark stage.
Running 2x mixes to the far end of the stage with one bit of 4-pole speakOn seems like a useful feature to have. If anyone can spot something wrong with it, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
Chris
If you're the only person to cable the stage and patch the monitors you can do whatever makes sense to you. If others are involved (esp if they think they know something) this is a recipe for mis-patches and general frustration unless there's a way to idiot-proof it. People other than you and me don't read labels and fail to acknowledge obvious color or pattern matching. I'm serious. Musicians, stage hands, possibly your staff (or future staff). Just. Doesn't. Happen.
K.I.S.S.
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Honestly? No.
But I'm a completely demographic to you. I'm in the UK, and was born in 1994. Most of you here probably have equipment older than me. Heck, I've got equipment older than me.
My wedges were recently used by Jo, Brad and Tina of S-Club 7. They're not particularly nice boxes (just your standard passive 350w 12" 2-way box from 10 years ago), but I took the time to get out the measurement mic and get them sounding decent and made sure they covered the stage reasonably evenly. The result was they were happy and put on a great show.
On the subject of passive wedges of the DIY variety, I've ordered a nice 10" coaxial driver to play with, which has enough linear excursion on the 10" cone to produce a decent amount of low end - within a dB or two of the RCF 12", although in a much smaller box.
Something I'd like some opinions on, and I think you guys might find the idea quite neat:
Context first: passive wedges, only require one amp channel.
3x NL4 connectors:
4-pole in, THRU, and Mix 2 out.
Mix 1 on pins 1+/- on the NL4 in,
Mix 2 on pins 2+/- on the NL4 in.
THRU passes that out again
Mix 2 out puts the input 2+/- on to 1+/- on a seperate output.
So you can run 4x wedges with 2x mixes down one cable with a bit of patching between wedges:
NL4 into the first wedge (gets mix 1),
NL4 link to second wedge (also on mix 1)
Mix 2 out to third wedge (mix 2)
Finally, link to fourth wedge (mix 2)
I think that's a pretty neat idea. You could go further with an NL8 input and a crapload of NL4 outputs, but I think that's getting too complicated to cable reliably on a dark stage.
Running 2x mixes to the far end of the stage with one bit of 4-pole speakOn seems like a useful feature to have. If anyone can spot something wrong with it, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
Chris
I did something along these lines that worked out pretty well. I re-wired a set of four EAW wedges, replacing the dual NL4 with dual NL8 (same size) then wired the drivers with +1/-1, +2/-2, +3/-3, and +4/-4. Each wedge is prominently marked 1-4, but it doesn’t much matter. All wedges get daisy chained (saves a bunch of cable) with 8 conductor cable and I get four discreet mixes. They can be plugged in in any order.
Btw they’re for sale if anyone is interested (cabling included) EAW LA-215 (shameless plug).
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Fair enough, Tim.
Thanks for the feedback. At the moment, most of my gigs are just me. Sometimes I have helpers, but I make sure they understand what they're doing before going out and patching things. I do see what you mean about idiot-proofing, though, and would probably find a way to idiot-proof before the wedges meet the general public. Even just a bit of plastic that blocks Mix 2 Out would be better than nothing in that case.
Robert, that's a nice idea. Wire everything straight through and then patch at the racks. Neat. I suppose if you found some switches rated for enough current, you could switch wedges after they're cabled, too.
Chris
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What would a rider friendly $1-2k passive wedge be?
Used Clair Bros 12AM or SRM:
https://clairusedgear.com/collections/2-way-speakers-line-array
Dave
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I do see what you mean about idiot-proofing, though, and would probably find a way to idiot-proof before the wedges meet the general public.
Please see my tag line.
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I just spoke with Clair used department, they will provide Lab Gruppen PLM presets for the 12AM.
Used Clair Bros 12AM or SRM:
https://clairusedgear.com/collections/2-way-speakers-line-array
Dave