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Title: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 20, 2018, 07:33:16 pm
On the second page of this article https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,169330.msg1560988/topicseen.html#new

Chris refers to "One of the first mic changes I made was switching the drum overheads to Earthworks SR30s, and from a traditional separated pair of stands to an XY coincidental pair suspended directly over the snare drum mic."

For the life of me I can't visualize what he is writing about.

Can someone illuminate please?

Title: Re: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: kel mcguire on November 20, 2018, 07:55:25 pm
On the second page of this article https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,169330.msg1560988/topicseen.html#new

Chris refers to "One of the first mic changes I made was switching the drum overheads to Earthworks SR30s, and from a traditional separated pair of stands to an XY coincidental pair suspended directly over the snare drum mic."

For the life of me I can't visualize what he is writing about.

Can someone illuminate please?

I use XY overheads quite frequently in the studio and for live sound both. The stereo field is not as wide but it does help with keeping a stage rig's bleed from being panned in the house because of a spaced pair of OH being closer to one of the stage rigs. An XY pair can be put almost anywhere since all the sounds are hitting the two mic capsules at nearly the same time. Also stage monitors hitting a spaced pair can do some weird things. There's a point where the subtle stereo vibe isn't worth putting up two mics for me and I'll end up with one mono OH

Title: Re: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: Nathan Riddle on November 20, 2018, 08:18:36 pm
https://howtomic.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Fig-1391.gif

I think this is what he means
Title: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: DavidTurner on November 20, 2018, 08:21:08 pm
I like using a stereo mic - like a VP88 - over the drummerís head pointed toward the toms.

I think if it as a kit mic - not just cymbals.


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Title: Re: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: Weogo Reed on November 20, 2018, 08:34:38 pm
Hi Scott,

Chris Mitchell knows his stuff.

Take this picture:
 https://www.dpamicrophones.com/mic-university/principles-of-the-xy-stereo-technique
and turn it upside down for a pair of X/Y drum overheads.

I often use a cardioid Earthworks mic as a single OH.
Lately I'm been using mics similar to the Rode NT4.
Often it is just a Kick mic and the X/Y overhead setup.
I recently recorded a full drum kit with a single X/Y mic.

Thanks and good health,  Weogo


On the second page of this article https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,169330.msg1560988/topicseen.html#new

Chris refers to "One of the first mic changes I made was switching the drum overheads to Earthworks SR30s, and from a traditional separated pair of stands to an XY coincidental pair suspended directly over the snare drum mic."

For the life of me I can't visualize what he is writing about.

Can someone illuminate please?
Title: Re: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: Patrick Tracy on November 21, 2018, 01:35:33 am
I don't know about placing it anywhere. I place mine very precisely with the goal of getting the snare and kick centered in the image and getting the rest of the kit evenly represented. What I like about coincident overheads is that it gives me the option of time aligning the close mics with the overheads.
Title: Re: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 21, 2018, 01:48:42 am
I don't know about placing it anywhere. I place mine very precisely with the goal of getting the snare and kick centered in the image and getting the rest of the kit evenly represented. What I like about coincident overheads is that it gives me the option of time aligning the close mics with the overheads.
Thanks.  I now undetstand the placement he referenced.  It makes sense too.  Very interesting article. 

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Title: Re: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on November 21, 2018, 04:11:43 am
It's an interesting article for sure.
I do have one (slight) gripe, though. Talking of removing EQ from the chain, and then using an Audix D6, which is one of the most inherently-EQ'd mics I've come across.

I recognise the speaker he used for a subkick and it's certainly an interesting choice - a Tang Band W6-1139SI, which is a 6.5" mini-subwoofer. Long voice coil, lots of linear excursion. I wonder what the reasoning behind that choice was...

Chris
Title: Re: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on November 21, 2018, 05:39:27 am
My go-to OH mic for years was a Rode NT4, it's a decent XY-mic that doesn't cost too much.

Title: Re: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: kel mcguire on November 21, 2018, 05:21:09 pm
I don't know about placing it anywhere. I place mine very precisely with the goal of getting the snare and kick centered in the image and getting the rest of the kit evenly represented. What I like about coincident overheads is that it gives me the option of time aligning the close mics with the overheads.

Yes, "anywhere" is an exaggeration but your coincident mic pair(or stereo mic) can be placed favorably in any number of positions over the set within reason and the kick/snare will be equal since their sound arrives at each capsule at pretty much the same time. Height above the kit has a lot to do with placement of the drums in the stereo field. Obviously you would't want to move the pair laterally too much which starts to favor closer drums. 

A classic method is to draw a line between the center of the kick & snare and place the coincident pair above and along that imaginary line that bisects each drum with capsules 90 degrees to the line. A piece of string comes in handy for that

Time aligning close mics to OH are compromises at best. You can't possibly time align OH to close mics without changing the proximity distance relationships to adjacent mics at the same time. I suppose it comes down to what your tastes finds to be "better"
Title: Re: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: Roland Clarke on November 22, 2018, 02:33:23 pm
Interesting comments above.  Iím not going to say where I stand on this debate, but I would recommend anyone who has the facilities, time and inclination to try xy, vs ms, vs slightly spaced, vs wide spaced, vs Glynn Johns technique.  The results are surprising and quite possibly not what you would expect.  Enough said! 😉
Title: Re: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: Luke Geis on November 22, 2018, 03:37:43 pm
Lately, I have been going with the Glynn John's technique. I used to do XY and widely spaced and found that I need so little overheads anyway that I the middle ground between those two was more preferred. When I had them in XY I got a nice " drum mix ", but too little separation ( width ) for live use. With wide spacing, I got too much cymbals and stage wash, plus one side always had a crap ton of snare while the other side didn't. The Glynn Johns approach is perfect for me. It keeps the kick and snare pretty much up the middle the drum mix as a whole is good and the hi-hat sets to one side a little as I like it. The stereo width is enough and the energy in each mic is fairly equal.

I am using AKG C214's these days for overheads and a Miketek PM5D set for kick toms and snare that has me pretty well tuned in. The PM11's stated frequency response is actually pretty broad and flat despite the deep clicky sound it acquires. I get the feeling that the Audix D6 which sounds close to the PM11 is also relatively flat, but something about them lends to a more tailored sound when on the kick. Perhaps being supercardioid has something to do with it? For me its all about the attack and click. Getting the boom isn't a problem, but without any attack making the kick work is very hard. The PM11 and D6 have plenty of click and getting it out is easy enough if I need a more jazz or 70's rock type sound.
Title: Re: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: Patrick Tracy on November 26, 2018, 03:26:08 am
You can't possibly time align OH to close mics without changing the proximity distance relationships to adjacent mics at the same time.

That's why I place the close mics to reject the adjacent drums using 3:1 rule of thumb and polar pattern.
Title: Re: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: Jay Barracato on November 27, 2018, 07:36:14 am
It's an interesting article for sure.
I do have one (slight) gripe, though. Talking of removing EQ from the chain, and then using an Audix D6, which is one of the most inherently-EQ'd mics I've come across.

I recognise the speaker he used for a subkick and it's certainly an interesting choice - a Tang Band W6-1139SI, which is a 6.5" mini-subwoofer. Long voice coil, lots of linear excursion. I wonder what the reasoning behind that choice was...

Chris
Interesting comments above.  Iím not going to say where I stand on this debate, but I would recommend anyone who has the facilities, time and inclination to try xy, vs ms, vs slightly spaced, vs wide spaced, vs Glynn Johns technique.  The results are surprising and quite possibly not what you would expect.  Enough said!
I think stereo in the live setting is simply a way to ensure no two listening positions have the same mix. And a drum kit is essentially a mono source acoustically from any listening positions other than the drum throne.

That is not to mean that stereo drums have no place in modern music but it is an artificial effect, so in my mind, not an every song every set mix setting.

With that said, in any setting with a hard back wall, I am happy with close mics on the ride and hats. If I don't have a back wall, I prefer a single overhead.

After all,  after carefully balancing the position of the overheads to the kick and snare, you are probably going to set it's level according to the ear shattering China saturating everything.

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Title: Re: XY coincidental pair (of overhead drum mics)
Post by: Patrick Tracy on November 27, 2018, 02:49:44 pm
I think stereo in the live setting is simply a way to ensure no two listening positions have the same mix.

There's no rule that says you have to pan them in the house (though I often do) and coincident mics are mono compatible. In many of the small narrow venues I've mixed there's no listening position that doesn't get some stereo effect from the PA. In those spaces I'm angling the speakers in a bit to keep the sound off the walls, so you can generally hear the far speaker just fine. Of course in those small rooms I might just have the drums off in the house, but I like to mic them to have the option, or to add reverb.

I frequently record live so I like some amount of stereo image, whether it's realistic or not.