Jim Stachowski - Ashly wrote on Mon, 25 September 2006 10:23 |
Though I am not the technical person for Ashly or Camco, I must point out the worldwide switching power supply for the Vortex amps is not universal. There are separate 120V and 230V versions. |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Mon, 25 September 2006 09:41 |
I'm not picking on you Bennett, this must be the part of the review thread where you paraphrase and/or paste the company's marketing FAB. |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Mon, 25 September 2006 14:20 |
I appreciate the difficulty of creating the impression of a merchantable difference between modern amplifiers when most deliver quite good bandwidth and linearity, but keeping with the spirit of the LAB being a hype-free zone I will point out claims that appear worthy of investigation. |
Lester Moran wrote on Tue, 03 October 2006 01:27 |
This is timely for me as I was recently offered four rep-demo V6s for 2,900 USD each. I would be replacing four MA3600s that serve as sub and mid amps in a JBL 4894 /SRX 4715 system. I like the 3600s, but a more power/less weight upgrade would be cool as long as sonically it is an upgrade. I see the latest Bink's Amp Shootout didn't get Camcos to test, and Forum searches haven't produced the breadth of Camco opinions I was hoping for. Can anyone provide a link to some opinions I may have missed? Thanks, Les |
Jens Droessler wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 14:33 |
Yeah, and there are very few capacitors (speak: low buffer) on the PSU too. Also, the housing is pretty cheap. SMD transistors pretty tightly packed in the output stage (with voltages over 200V, humid air ahoy!) and the worst performance on subwoofers you can get for that money. I ABed them, I road tested them, and they failed. Sorry. |
Jens Droessler wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 15:33 |
Yeah, and there are very few capacitors (speak: low buffer) on the PSU too. Also, the housing is pretty cheap. SMD transistors pretty tightly packed in the output stage (with voltages over 200V, humid air ahoy!) and the worst performance on subwoofers you can get for that money. I ABed them, I road tested them, and they failed. Sorry. |
RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 19:07 |
... and that the MA5000s are weak on bass! ... |
Jens Droessler wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 14:33 |
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Yeah, and there are very few capacitors (speak: low buffer) on the PSU too. |
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SMD transistors pretty tightly packed in the output stage (with voltages over 200V, humid air ahoy!) |
RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 19:07 |
This dude is out of his mind! |
John Horvath wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 21:22 | ||
Well, he is from Germany. |
RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Wed, 15 November 2006 17:23 |
Yeah, and there are very few capacitors (speak: low buffer) on the PSU too. Also, the housing is pretty cheap. SMD transistors pretty tightly packed in the output stage (with voltages over 200V, humid air ahoy!) and the worst performance on subwoofers you can get for that money. I ABed them, I road tested them, and they failed. Sorry.[ =============== Then YOU are the only one I have ever heard of that thought these to be the worst performers! All the guys at Nexo have had it wrong this whole time, right!? Could it possibly be that the reduced distortion levels made you not like the sound of your subs? |
Jens Droessler wrote on Fri, 17 November 2006 09:43 |
@ Pascal Pincosy: The comparison Vortex6 vs. FP+13000 would be a bit unfair. I really like the LABs, but I think with the FP+13000 they have gone a bit too far. See, the LAB fPs have a circuitry in the PSU allowing them to only draw 16A at 230V, I guess it would be 32A at 110V then for USA. If I drive the fP6400 on bass at 2 ohms, the LED indicator of that circuit already sometimes lights up. That means a full tilt 2 ohms heavy bass load already draws more current (RMS) than the PSU allows. The FP+13000 has the same circuit, also allowing 16/32A, but it's rated with more than double the power. You see where I'm going? |
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I am too lazy to chase down details of their PS limits so perhaps it is appropriate to also establish a max continuous output power spec, but AFAIK no amp manufacturer does, nor do they design audio amps for continuous duty cycle output |
on Fri, 17 November 2006 22:52 |
Quote:==I am too lazy to chase down details of their PS limits so perhaps it is appropriate to also establish a max continuous output power spec, but AFAIK no amp manufacturer does, nor do they design audio amps for continuous duty cycle output /quote Jens Droessler wrote Yes, there is at least one manufacturer doing this (just like in the old times). They have an amp with 2x5500W IEC @ 2 ohms (around 2x6500W at 2 ohms in the more common EIA measurement, like LAB Gruppen or PowerSoft do), also specced with around that power when driven by sine signals to 0dB, drawing 68A from a 230V line then. |
Jens Droessler wrote on Sat, 18 November 2006 10:00 |
Of course an amp doesn't NEED to do full cycle for a long time with typical music. I use amplifiers not doing full cycle every day without problems in most cases. But IMO it is not wrong building the amp for doing it, making it able to draw 100A from a 110V line. IMO most manufacturers won't do this, not because they couldn't do it, but because it is much cheaper to build them that way. Of course no amp in the class of 2x2000@4 ohms will do 24x7 full duty, but the ones I was talking of will do it for quite a while. We do every kind of event, and sometimes, when the artists work with special effects or there's drum'n'bass music, amps lie the PowerSoft DigAms will regulate their output down. I had that several times, so in this case it IS a serious limitation... |
Pascal wrote on Thu, 16 November 2006: |
Maybe they won't like running on a cheapo gennie, but it's been ages since my system's been run on anything less than MQ power with plenty of headroom anyway. |
Jens Droessler wrote on Mon, 20 November 2006 10:41 |
@ Langston: In the other direction it's the same. Under 115V the amp will loose (SIC) power rapidly and because of the small buffers it will react instantaneous even to quick changes (like line droppings of a few volts on every bassdrum hit or such). This behaviour, also the overvoltage mute is partly because the SMPS is unregulated. It doen't react to the line situation (like LAB Gruppen for example does). |
Andy Peters wrote on Mon, 20 November 2006 12:10 |
Jens, AGAIN: a SMPS doesn't need big honkin' caps because the caps are refreshed a lot more often than once every 1/60 seconds (1/50 in your part of the world). You completely ignored this important fact the last time I pointed it out. -a |
Jens Droessler wrote on Mon, 20 November 2006 15:13 |
@ John Roberts: Really, John, how many people do you know capable of admiting that they invested a big bag of money in the wrong product? As I said, it's already happening on subconscious level, the people can't do anything about it. |
Lester Moran wrote on Tue, 03 October 2006 01:27 |
This is timely for me as I was recently offered four rep-demo V6s for 2,900 USD each. I would be replacing four MA3600s that serve as sub and mid amps in a JBL 4894 /SRX 4715 system. I like the 3600s, but a more power/less weight upgrade would be cool as long as sonically it is an upgrade. I see the latest Bink's Amp Shootout didn't get Camcos to test, and Forum searches haven't produced the breadth of Camco opinions I was hoping for. Can anyone provide a link to some opinions I may have missed? Thanks, Les |
Evan Kirkendall wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 19:50 |
Hi guys, Just to let you know, Tom M. now has the amp. He'll probably be writing something up about it soon. I did have it, but had no use for it. Evan |
Lester Moran wrote on Tue, 28 November 2006 18:42 | ||
Thank you, gentlemen, for the insight and the opinions. This has been quite an education. Les |
Tim McCulloch wrote on Wed, 29 November 2006 08:14 | ||||
Hi Les- I'm sure it's been... educational. What conclusions, if any, did this help you to reach? Were you able to draw any conclusions about the suitability of the V6 for the gear you own and the types of gigs you do? I'm not bagging on you, I'm just trying to find out if some of this was meaningful for you. I'm hoping that you will be able to secure a demo unit and try it for yourself, and I'd really like to hear *your* opinion of the differences you find in your applications. I think part of the disparity in comments comes from a pretty broad swath of use types and test bench expectations... It boils down to: how do they work for you? And that's the reason we have the Road Test. Good luck, have fun, and let us know how this all goes for you. Tim Mc |
Jens Droessler wrote on Sun, 03 December 2006 01:56 |
... Don't forget to do some comparisons on bad main lines... |
Lester Moran wrote on Sun, 03 December 2006 17:59 |
I do this festival every spring where it's common to see fluctuations from 109v to 127v all the way out at house. I've worried about my omnidrive (no problem), but fretting over the power amps in such a situation is not something I'm willing to deal with. |
Jens Droessler wrote on Sat, 18 November 2006 11:00 |
Of course an amp doesn't NEED to do full cycle for a long time with typical music. I use amplifiers not doing full cycle every day without problems in most cases. But IMO it is not wrong building the amp for doing it, making it able to draw 100A from a 110V line. IMO most manufacturers won't do this, not because they couldn't do it, but because it is much cheaper to build them that way. Of course no amp in the class of 2x2000@4 ohms will do 24x7 full duty, but the ones I was talking of will do it for quite a while. We do every kind of event, and sometimes, when the artists work with special effects or there's drum'n'bass music, amps lie the PowerSoft DigAms will regulate their output down. I had that several times, so in this case it IS a serious limitation... |
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100A from a 115V line? Where's the event, the Mercedes factory. |
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How about this. I would really like to hear what Bennett and the boy's have to say about these amplifiers. I for one respect their opinions. The Road Test is for this amp, so I would like to read about the pro's and con's for this amp. |
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I don't care about what's going on with friends in Germany, mythical condensation, mis informed and inaccurate engineering concepts, perceived notions or comparisons to other manufactures or about arc welders turned audio amp (Audio Welders?. |
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If you need to make comparisons then start another thread. If you need to bash, piss and moan, start another thread. If your interested in what the REVIEWERS have to say, stay tuned. |
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Want to road test another amp? Send it from Germany postage paid to these guy's who are taking their time to inform us, they'll use it, review it, and let you know how they feel about it. This is a REVIEW NOT A COMPARISON. |
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Bennett, guy's, please continue to evaluate this amp and report back with your findings. I appreciate the effort and look forward to your next review / Road Test. Thank you! I'm done. |
RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 03:41 |
If an entire rack of amplifiers goes out but none of the other sensitive electronic items go out and someone says that it was from "Condensation" that is such B.S.!!! It is either user OR installer error OR someone spiller a liquid in there, there is no other reason, period. Having a river behind a venue wil not cause a failure, ever! I work in 110' weather with humidity and the condensation has never caused an issue with mine! <snip> Of course everyone should do their own listening tests and research to make sure that the amps they purchase are the right ones for them. I did and the Camcos are right for me no matter how much Jens tries to convince everyone that they aren't. |
Pascal Pincosy wrote on Mon, 11 December 2006 06:43 |
That being said, I'm not hearing Jens trying to convince anyone of anything, just stating his experiences with the Vortex line, which doesn't seem to be in line with most of the other users of this amp, including myself. And I'm seeing a bunch of people jumping down his throat for doing so, which I think is a little unfair. Jens is obviously a very opinionated person, which I don't think is a bad thing and I appreciate his views being posted here. But interested parties should note that he's pretty much the only one with this opinion posting here. |
Jens Droessler wrote on Sun, 10 December 2006 21:08 | ||||||||||||
@ Bob Leonard:
We do events there, yes. Well good for you. That still doesn't explain 100 amps from a 115v line.
Firstly, I'm not stopping them on posting their experience, do I? Secondly, YOU obviously DON'T want to hear about the cons... What I don't want is you pissing on my leg and then trying to tell me it's raining. What I do want is an educated opinion. That would be theirs, not yours.
And I don't care what crap you buy because someone said it is good (not specifically the Camco amp) while not knowing what 'standard' was applied. It's your problem if you buy without an accurate comparison. And that is all I say, I tell people WILLING TO BUY an amp in this class to take enough time to directly COMPARE before they set their mind. I didn't tell anyone of the road testers to make a comparison here. Furthermore, if you think an amp is bad or worse than another because it CAN draw AND output this kind of current, it is you who has misinformed and inaccurate engineering concepts! Well good for you. That still doesn't explain 100 amps from a 115v line. By the way, those reviews are mostly about 'perceived notions'. I told the true story about the defective Camcos because people DON'T put the ITechs for example on their list just because some people here say that they get broken (so they did not even dare to get a sample). It was a direct reply to RYAN. And if you like to refer to scientific facts as 'mythical', you're welcome, you're entitled to it. I won't make the effort to change your mind.
I don't want to have a comparison HERE, and I don't bash here either. Why is it 'bashing' if I tell people about drawbacks of a product? And why the heck should I MOAN if other people buy products I wouldn't buy? That's their problem. If they do, so be it. But I think I have the right to tell people what the problems are. And if the 'road testers' know those problems (by reading about them here) they possibly can validate them. Wouldn't that be a benefit to all? It would if it were beleivable. You tend to shoot more shit than a North Korean radio.
I don't have products to be 'road tested'. And I don't BASH products because I want to push other products, I bash (by your definiton) products because they deserve it. I don't make up stuff. So tell me, how can there be a review about the performance of an amp completely without comparison? By what standard does this amp perform 'good' or 'bad'? And where is it stated that a review here can't contain lines like 'I compared it to my Crest CA18 and it blew it away'? You would have to understand the definition of a review. So because you don't I have included it below.
Again, I never said, never intended and never want them to stop their test. Why should I? What's the worst thing that could happen? That you'll have to scroll down some pages before you can read their review? |
Bennett Prescott wrote |
I just had an extremely informative chat on the phone with Mark. Here's what's really going on: The Road Test forum will be a separate forum from the ones we currently know and love. It is not an arena for manufacturers to bribe big names in the audio business into spewing fluffy reviews out their proverbial rears. It is unfortunate that the TT24 review appeared that way, but that is due to a number of factors, not the least of which is that it's the first of its kind and Steve Beatty is used to mixing on a lot less, so isn't coming at this from the LAB-level perspective. What Mark is really trying to do is get meaningful, near-real-time, un-glossed-over reviews about products that have a lot of interest in the marketplace but not a lot of exposure. He wants to try an use his clout as president of Huge Universe to get manufacturers to send products to people the pro audio community respects for a real hands on review. Everyone wins in this case, since the manufacturer gets feedback and exposure, and the LAB gets a meaningful review. The manufacturers will not be allowed to edit content, and hopefully there will be a meaningful discussion of features and impressions started so that LABsters can get their points of interest covered by whomever has the product being reviewed. |
Pascal Pincosy wrote on Tue, 12 December 2006 01:27 |
BTW Bob, in the comment about 100 amps at 120 volts mains, Jens was refering to an amp from Studio R in Brasil called the X12, which is an 11,000 watts RMS Class-H amplifier that pulls up to 68 amps 220v (so I'd guess about 125 amps @120v) at its peak current draw. You would probably need a revised distro to run an amp like this with a 2 Ohm load, maybe up to 100 amps @ 120v per circuit Though I think 50 amps per circuit @ 120v would be fine for almost all applications not involving a 2 Ohm load and a Drum & Bass/Hardcore show. |
Bob Leonard wrote on Thu, 14 December 2006 21:18 |
Tom, How about setting up the "A" rig in front of the house while you play Pat Boone christmas carols over and over again all weekend long at max volume. Maybe some of the chipmunks once in a while? |
Samuel Monteiro wrote on Sat, 23 December 2006 15:59 |
....Studio R also claims to fulfill Meyer Sound's power measuring recommendations and sustaining capabilities..... Samuel |
Ales Dravinec 'Alex' wrote on Sat, 23 December 2006 11:56 | ||
Which are ??? Alex MC and HNY to you too |
Lee Jacobson wrote on Thu, 28 December 2006 23:32 |
AFAIK, QSC PLX amps are this way as well. Either that, or last time I had my two 3002 apart, I was in some alternate reality... |
Michael 'Bink' Knowles wrote on Wed, 17 January 2007 05:20 |
I can understand your not wanting to make custom patch cables for a casual test of a single amp but of course if you were intending to buy a pallet load of these for your stadium system you'd be getting over it pretty quickly. I haven't looked inside the Quadro to see if there's any room for two more NL4s. Is there? Do they just not have any choice? Perhaps the Road Test amp samples should be supplied with some typical patch gack. -Bink |
Bennett Prescott wrote on Mon, 25 September 2006 00:39 |
So far I've used these amps twice, both times driving monitors. Unfortunately, it wasn't exactly a critical listening test, and I certainly wasn't driving them up against their rails so I didn't get to experience how they performed under duress. I also recently used a Vortex 6 while working with another company, and it was good to me as well, but since it was running front fills I barely tickled the signal lights. Since I'm doing a bunch of suitcase gigs this time of year, I palmed both amps off on others... John Chiara and Mike Butler should be showing up with their opinions soon. I'm sure they'll put them to good use, and after they're done we can move them on to others who may be able to subject them to some real world abuse. The product page for these amplifiers is available here: http://www.camcoaudio.com/Vortex.html |