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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => The Basement => Topic started by: Tracy Garner on October 13, 2017, 02:50:12 PM
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When the band started playing the sound was really not as good at all in comparison.
This was the feedback I heard today from a coworker who attended the first concert ever at Mercedes Benz Stadium...
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When the band started playing the sound was really not as good at all in comparison.
This was the feedback I heard today from a coworker who attended the first concert ever at Mercedes Benz Stadium...
There is a lot of "talk" going around about this event.
Some have been blaming the house sound system.
The installed house system was NOT being used. All of the sound was from the tour system brought into the venue.
The tour guys were given the opportunity to tie into the house system, (with parts of it disabled that would also be covered from the center stage system).
It was declined.
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When the band started playing the sound was really not as good at all in comparison.
This was the feedback I heard today from a coworker who attended the first concert ever at Mercedes Benz Stadium...
Similar to this article's description?
http://music.blog.ajc.com/2017/10/13/concert-review-garth-brooks-mercedes-benz-stadium-opener-had-passionate-hits-sound-complaints-and-jimmy-carter/
-Dennis
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There is a lot of "talk" going around about this event.
Some have been blaming the house sound system.
The installed house system was NOT being used. All of the sound was from the tour system brought into the venue.
The tour guys were given the opportunity to tie into the house system, (with parts of it disabled that would also be covered from the center stage system).
It was declined.
That should be a lesson for the future. At the same time, I've been tailgating outside the old GA Dome and now the MB Stadium. At the new stadium, many people come outside talking about that sound in there. "It sounds like a concert in there", "that sound in the Benz is bumping". You wouldn't expect people to notice it.
Meanwhile, an untrained ear spent good money for the concert where they brought in sound and complained "the band didn't sound good".
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That should be a lesson for the future. At the same time, I've been tailgating outside the old GA Dome and now the MB Stadium. At the new stadium, many people come outside talking about that sound in there. "It sounds like a concert in there", "that sound in the Benz is bumping". You wouldn't expect people to notice it.
Meanwhile, an untrained ear spent good money for the concert where they brought in sound and complained "the band didn't sound good".
An installation, in theory, has the opportunity to cover almost every Sq M of space occupied by humans. Good designs, suitable products and careful alignment can make that happen. Some results are better than others...
With portable stadium concert PA and the limited loudspeaker placement options that come with 'portable' there are inevitably places where coverage will be lacking. That the install side *can* have an advantage this will probably cause some head scratching and rethinking of what is required to deliver "install quality" sound from portable systems. 8)
Anyway, having been asked to interface with arena systems and having access only to the room system presets and zone mutes I can say that chances are very good that I'm not going to able to make use of the installed system unless I have access levels that the house TD probably doesn't have... I can understand Garth's tour SE declining to interface with the installed system; he's then tasked with aligning a STADIUM (not a trivial task) with his rig. Think about this for a minute - the stuff Ivan spends a week doing, the SE will have maybe 2 hours to do.
The sting from the SpaceFace/Tweetersphere may be sufficient that artist's TDs may have to up the budget for more gear and more time, or more time and site visits to see what parts of an installation might be beneficial, accessible, and controllable. We'll see.
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As I understand it, the installation of the acoustic treatment is not complete or has not even been started.
There IS a reason that treatment was specified as necessary...perhaps to, oh I don't know...improve sound quality?!?!?
Still, even in a good space, poor implementation of a touring rig will create problems.
Unfortunately, most people will not differentiate between the house system and the touring system and complain about "wasted money"
The title says it all.
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Think about this for a minute - the stuff Ivan spends a week doing, the SE will have maybe 2 hours to do.
So why not take advantage of that?
What was offered was that the lower bowl speakers would be turned off, and the mid-upper bowl bowl would be the house system.
So let the stage PA cover the field and lower seating, and the installed system cover the rest.
Basically do a quick signal arrival time (at some place-YES it will be different than others-but I can assure you they were not setting individual arrival times for each of the delays that they brought), and be done.
Maybe a tad of eq to balance and you are done.
I am quite sure they did not walk every coverage pattern. Believe me, it takes quite a while and will wear you out. That is a very LARGE space, with lots of steps.
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Is this that Garth Brooks show that everyone is complaining about?
I guess I have to wonder how anyone would even be able to tell that it didn't sound good in the first place?
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I've been wondering how long it would take for concert venues to install permanent sound systems. I hope this incident triggers some reinspection of the old business plan... of course the big sound companies have skin in that decision.
JR
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I've been wondering how long it would take for concert venues to install permanent sound systems. I hope this incident triggers some reinspection of the old business plan... of course the big sound companies have skin in that decision.
JR
The sharp pencils at Live Nation started doing something like that: basic tour style PA and lights, anything extra came out of artist's settlement. It didn't last very long or happen in more than a few venues LN managed. Artists said "fuck you, we won't play your rooms."
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The sharp pencils at Live Nation started doing something like that: basic tour style PA and lights, anything extra came out of artist's settlement. It didn't last very long or happen in more than a few venues LN managed. Artists said "fuck you, we won't play your rooms."
Of course it only works if the sound systems do not suck.... LN probably cut too many corners.
Must be nice if artists can afford to pass up gigs... I thought that was their primary source of income these days.
I don't have a dog in this hunt, just don't understand humping around tractor trailers full of racks and stacks everywhere. Several major shows a year in the same venue could(?) justify a permanent system... or not. Change is hard, and there would be a capital cost (while interest rates are still at relative lows).
LN could buy a few big systems from touring companies (if appropriate) to reduce their pain.
JR
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I've been wondering how long it would take for concert venues to install permanent sound systems. I hope this incident triggers some reinspection of the old business plan... of course the big sound companies have skin in that decision.
Because when you are spending $200 million to $1.5 billion on one of these places, that $few hundred thousand for the PA system is just too much. It's actually the straw that break the camel's back on these projects.
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Of course it only works if the sound systems do not suck.... LN probably cut too many corners.
Must be nice if artists can afford to pass up gigs... I thought that was their primary source of income these days.
I don't have a dog in this hunt, just don't understand humping around tractor trailers full of racks and stacks everywhere. Several major shows a year in the same venue could(?) justify a permanent system... or not. Change is hard, and there would be a capital cost (while interest rates are still at relative lows).
LN could buy a few big systems from touring companies (if appropriate) to reduce their pain.
JR
Perhaps I should have used the more pretentious "artiste". ;)
So long as performers want control over the means of delivery of their product they will likely reject installed or generic tour packages (LN also partnered up with a touring provider for package deals). While not a direct comparison, it's like saying theaters should have a couple of box sets and every musical or play must use those with some set decorating and props carried with the tour.
It's also wise to note this happened about 10 years ago (maybe more), when LN was consolidating its venue management and tour promotion businesses; perhaps some venue owners (city & county governments) got squeamish that the vertical integration was not in their interests.
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Several major shows a year in the same venue could(?) justify a permanent system... or not.
Perhaps not permanent but locally supplied, as required, and enough to cover the room properly.
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Perhaps not permanent but locally supplied, as required, and enough to cover the room properly.
This thread isn't about the venue not having a properly designed and installed system. They did. A very high end one.
This thread is about the touring staff refusing to use it, and using all of their own PA gear, including the delay systems for the upper balcony.
I wonder if the head audio for Garth Brooks has the cojones to come on this forum and defend his decision to use their own, inadequate system?
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This thread isn't about the venue not having a properly designed and installed system. They did. A very high end one.
This thread is about the touring staff refusing to use it, and using all of their own PA gear, including the delay systems for the upper balcony.
I wonder if the head audio for Garth Brooks has the cajones to come on this forum and defend his decision to use their own, inadequate system?
Clair's corporate policy is that employees do not make public comments about company policy, equipment or procedures.
Oops, there went my Lititz job offer.... ;)
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Clair's corporate policy is that employees do not make public comments about company policy, equipment or procedures.
Oops, there went my Lititz job offer.... ;)
Well, there you go. Circle the wagons to ensure that the public knows full well that you are guilty of making the wrong decision.
So until Clair or their staff make a statement, we can all rightly assume that they are all fools.
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This thread isn't about the venue not having a properly designed and installed system. They did. A very high end one.
This thread is about the touring staff refusing to use it, and using all of their own PA gear, including the delay systems for the upper balcony.
I wonder if the head audio for Garth Brooks has the cojones to come on this forum and defend his decision to use their own, inadequate system?
Perhaps I didn't explain correctly. I know there is an adequate installed system. I was there to hear it.
I was responding to the notion that touring acts would not need to carry the extra gear required for a room like this if there was a local supplier that could install a complete , or suplimentary, system to make sure the musical acts had what they needed if they were not keen on using the "house system" for extra coverage their tour rig may not provide.
Personally, having heard the house rig, I would have connected to it but I wan't the guy making the decision.
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Perhaps I didn't explain correctly. I know there is an adequate installed system I was there to hear it.
I was responding to the notion that touring acts would not need to carry the extra gear required for a room like this if there was a local supplier that could install a complete , or suplimentary, system to make sure the musical acts had what they needed if they were not keen on using the "house system".
Personally, having heard the house rig, I would have connected to it but I wan't the guy making the decision.
I have been woefully disappointed with nearly all of the touring systems that I have heard. Doesn't matter if it's a rock and roll arena show or a Broadway tour; or if it's a Meyer, L-Acoustics, D&B or JBL or Clair rig (sorry Ivan, I haven't heard any touring Danley systems yet).
Probably 7 times out of 10 lack clarity and definition and just overwhelm you with sheer volume and sub frequencies. Over more than a hundred shows that I have seen or worked with touring systems; I can count on one hand the number that I thought actually sounded good.
That new arena in Atlanta is something like 80,000 seats? You simply can't get the level of definition and clarity with a touring rig; when you are loading in at 6 or 7 am and have a show that night, and have only an hour with your split lunch to do system tuning. To get that level of clarity and even coverage you have to use the house system (if there is one) that was installed and tuned tuned over the course of weeks or months, and probably cost more than the touring systems that are brought in did.
But, my ear is skewed also. I grew up playing in wind ensembles and jazz bands, and I work mostly with classical music ensembles: ballet, opera and symphonies. So I have a completely different expectation of balance and clarity when it comes to sound reinforcement.
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You simply can't get the level of definition and clarity with a touring rig; when you are loading in at 6 or 7 am and have a show that night, and have only an hour with your split lunch to do system tuning. To get that level of clarity and even coverage you have to use the house system (if there is one) that was installed and tuned tuned over the course of weeks or months, and probably cost more than the touring systems that are brought in did.
That's my point!
Use the house rig or a well sorted, locally supplied, rental rig to augment the touring package. Or, don't sell all the seats.
No, it worn't be perfect but, again, we are trying to do a music show in a football stadium!
No problem there... ::)
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we are trying to do a music show in a football stadium!
No problem there... ::)
That may be the bigger point of this whole controversy.
I remember earlier in the year, I had friends texting me personally and posting on the Facesphere about how bad U2 sounded when they saw them at the Cowboys Stadium in Dallas (I think I even posted a thread here about that). That was a tour that was widely written about in our own industry trade rags about how super awesome the PA system was and how great it [should have] sounded. But the reality out side of the echo chamber of the industry was that is sounded like absolute crap.
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I expected opinions to run deep in this group... I don't care one way or the other, but I generally dislike waste and inefficiency. I haven't been to a live concert (not on the clock) for several decades.
The free market will resolve this too. Free markets abhor waste and inefficiency and scrape it away at every opportunity.
JR
PS: In my judgement live performances are about an event "experience" not marginal sound quality that most in the audience are not very discriminating about. This may come down to economics, one way or the other (ticket prices?).
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PS: In my judgement live performances are about an event "experience" not marginal sound quality that most in the audience are not very discriminating about.
And that, my friend, is the sad truth :(
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That new arena in Atlanta is something like 80,000 seats?
The bowl seating is something like 60K something or another. There are various seating sections they can pull out for special events-but are not normally used.
The additional seats were on the floor/field.
The place is larger than normal, because all of the seats are a couple inches wider than normal-so that expands the cubic volume of the space.
I have walked my share of the 100K college stadiums listening to the speaker system.
Walking this place is MUCH MUCH more tiring. Maybe I am just getting older :(
There are some serious acoustical issues that are NOT apparent from photos.
For example, behind the upper seats, there is a HUGE open "void" that the sound gets into and just "rattles around for a bit" before it comes back out.
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I have walked my share of the 100K college stadiums listening to the speaker system.
Walking this place is MUCH MUCH more tiring. Maybe I am just getting older :(
You should buy a Segway. Seems like it would be the perfect tax write off for jobs like this. ;)
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You should buy a Segway. Seems like it would be the perfect tax write off for jobs like this. ;)
But they suck on steps and going between seats in a stadium :)
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But they suck on steps and going between seats in a stadium :)
If you have the money, they have your wheels:
https://segway.la/products/x2-se/
Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
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The problem with trusting installs is that they can look good on paper but not actually be up to the task.
A good example of this was at Club Kilimanjaro in DC. The bands were told that the club had a state of the art Turbosound system. Maybe it was state of the art 10-15 years before, and NONE of the drivers were original, having been replaced over the years with whatever the audio crew could get their hands on. During the week, DJs filled the space and would blow up stuff and when the weekend bands would come in, parts of the system would not be working. I showed up one night delivering back line and saw a few stage wedges truck strapped to the rig. The sound guy Ed told me that the DJs had blown every horn and that he used the wedges to get some highs in the venue.
Now imagine if you were the band engineer and walked in expecting a state of the art Turbosound rig and were presented a rig of old Turbo cabinets loaded with who knows what, and a few floor wedges truck strapped on top for the highs.
My company just got a gig to fix the audio in 3 nightclubs. One system has very little bass. During inspection we discovered a pair of JBL subs under the stage working fine but instead of the subs being located right behind the metal grills installed that would protect them and let the sound out, each sub was back about 10' from the grills, and extra carpet and padding from the last flooring installation was placed under the stage in between the subs and the grill openings blocking and absorbing most of the low end. The crossover was also not correctly set up resulting in the lack of bass the club was experiencing. The components were fine but the flooring crew coupled with a DJ twisting knobs he should not have touched turned an OK system into crap.
Until every venue starts to care about audio quality, has a good in house audio crew, and the budget to install and maintain the sound system, road crews will usually opt for their own rig.
Craig
Sent from my iPad
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This right here. ^^^^^^^^
Ivan, for every great install you've voiced and optimized there are 1000 that suck, either from day one or by today. On a tour we don't have time to figure out what is not working, what is working but wrong, and what is safe to use. We don't have time to align the portable system and installed kibbles and bits.
And even if it's 100%, if there is any problem of any kind, the tour manager or PM will blame it on integrating with the installed system and likely whoever approved this in the first place will be fired immediately. You only have one chance (unlike installs) and if the artist or the artist's management is unhappy another provider will be getting the work. Period. End of story.
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This right here. ^^^^^^^^
Ivan, for every great install you've voiced and optimized there are 1000 that suck, either from day one or by today. On a tour we don't have time to figure out what is not working, what is working but wrong, and what is safe to use. We don't have time to align the portable system and installed kibbles and bits.
And even if it's 100%, if there is any problem of any kind, the tour manager or PM will blame it on integrating with the installed system and likely whoever approved this in the first place will be fired immediately. You only have one chance (unlike installs) and if the artist or the artist's management is unhappy another provider will be getting the work. Period. End of story.
I totally agree that there are MANY MANY bad installs. Some of the from the most respected designers, installers and using the most respected gear. As was to be the case if the MBS had gone with the original design.
But it was proven that design was faulty.
You say you only get one chance. So what about what happened at the show in question? If the "design" was faulty, is it just fine to blame the acoustics?
Yes they are tough, but it CAN be much better, as evidenced by the installed system.
Yeah it can be a crap shoot. You never know what you may run into, and I would agree that is probably "safer" to use what you know.
But there are installs out there that are just fine and will do the job better than the tour system, mainly because they were designed (if done properly) for the specific space.
But just because it is an "installed system" does NOT mean that is not as good as the tour system.
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What I've gathered so far...
The installed system was up to snuff, yes.
Was there time to ensure it was? No.
Is the typical install in years past up to snuff? No.
Thus does using a 'familiar' system makes sense (even if it might be not as good as a good installed system)? yes.
So I have a question after reading this informative thread and the article linked in the 3rd post by Dennis.
Why was the sound as bad as it was for the floor people or lower bowl?
Surely there was enough 'rig for the gig' for at least some fans and enough time to make sure the system was setup somewhat properly for some?? People?
Yet, there's plenty of 'talk' on the interwebs with people saying it didn't matter (floor, lower bowl, upper bowl, etc) where they sat it was poor audio quality.
Disclaimer: I wasn't there, just a curious onlooker.
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What I've gathered so far...
The installed system was up to snuff, yes.
Was there time to ensure it was? No.
Is the typical install in years past up to snuff? No.
Thus does using a 'familiar' system makes sense (even if it might be not as good as a good installed system)? yes.
So I have a question after reading this informative thread and the article linked in the 3rd post by Dennis.
Why was the sound as bad as it was for the floor people or lower bowl?
Surely there was enough 'rig for the gig' for at least some fans and enough time to make sure the system was setup somewhat properly for some?? People?
Yet, there's plenty of 'talk' on the interwebs with people saying it didn't matter (floor, lower bowl, upper bowl, etc) where they sat it was poor audio quality.
Disclaimer: I wasn't there, just a curious onlooker.
I've been told "your sound sucks" by a guy whose reference was (visible) $3 earbuds that came with his phone, listening to "remastered for 'streaming'" audio sources. He expected everything to be louder than everything else and never change for the duration of the song. Between that and the inevitable dog piling that happens with social media I'd not take it as certain that the sound sucked everywhere.
Hell, I don't think any listener under the age of ~50 knows what LIVE sound from loudspeakers is supposed to sound like...
I was a spotlight operator on a GB tour stop - multiple performances in the same venue - and seats were sold that were normally killed. From those seats came over 90% of sound complaints; maybe there are reasons those seats are not normally part of the on-sale inventory... just saying. That said, the crew made the changes that could be made without rehanging parts of the PA and it improved slightly. When I asked the LD if there were further plans he said "it's cheaper to swag or refund than it is to bring in every department and local crew to move shit." Complain about the sound in section 213A? You get an artist-signed picture...
Finally I again have to repeat my disdain for the concept of stadia as venues for damn near anything. If I need I-mag video or binoculars to see the band or team, the venue is too damn big. I'm disconnected from the show and at that point it's more about the "experience" of ignoring the music and performers so I can revel in whatever the hell "the experience" is. Bah, humbug. From an industry and business standpoint I'm glad there are plenty of rubes fans who feel otherwise but stadium shows don't do a damn thing for me as a punter.
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Finally I again have to repeat my disdain for the concept of stadia as venues for damn near anything. If I need I-mag video or binoculars to see the band or team, the venue is too damn big. I'm disconnected from the show and at that point it's more about the "experience" of ignoring the music and performers so I can revel in whatever the hell "the experience" is. Bah, humbug. From an industry and business standpoint I'm glad there are plenty of rubes fans who feel otherwise but stadium shows don't do a damn thing for me as a punter.
Agreed completely. Best sounding shows I have attended or worked have always been soft-seaters. Screw the Bell Center(and before that, the Forum), and all the ilk it brings to the table. It's always an "experience" to see someone try to overpower that room.........
Forget the "toilet bowl" Olympic Stadium. Only ELP got it "right", and I forgot how many trailers it took.
I've mixed in all 3, and it ain't no fun.
Chris.
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That should be a lesson for the future. At the same time, I've been tailgating outside the old GA Dome and now the MB Stadium. At the new stadium, many people come outside talking about that sound in there. "It sounds like a concert in there", "that sound in the Benz is bumping". You wouldn't expect people to notice it.
Meanwhile, an untrained ear spent good money for the concert where they brought in sound and complained "the band didn't sound good".
Hi Folks
The sad part is on line everyone is blaming the stadium and it’s sound system but as Ivan pointed out, the concert folks used what they were using for that tour which makes sense.
Why experiment when it’s all about in and out or what did Roy Clair. once said about the tour biz, it’s mostly logistics not sound..
There are some basic acoustic “rules” which govern these big room systems and they are not convenient but do explain what goes on.
The stadium is “big” inside, there is the seating area comfy for those of us who carry extra padding but outside the seating is a ring or restaurants and bars, outside that is the ring hall way and outside that is an area where ramps lead to the other floors AND THEN you have the walls of the building.
I think in acoustic terms it is what one would call huge, has to be approaching 800-900 feet across end to end .
Acoustic problem number one in caps, sound energy is contained in the air in the building while the absorption of that energy is mostly on the surfaces. If you said all surfaces had absorption of X (making it simple), then one sees that when you double the dimensions of a cube, the surface area where absorption is goes up by 4 times BUT the cubic volume where the energy is stored goes up by 8 times. AND in real life the “fuzzy absorptive side” is usually the bottom unless absorption is put somewhere else.
So, the bigger the room, the longer sound hangs around everything else being equal
Right off the bat if you want intelligibility or musical articulation, big rooms are difficult because of this room energy bouncing around conflicting with the direct (the information and articulation carrying) sound. This stadium is unusually large, has large flat surfaces, has no acoustic treatment yet but thankfully for Garths fans, at least there were people in it, empty stadiums are the worst.
It was observed that live doesn’t have time to “design” sound for a given venue while install does, In this case, we entered the picture after an 8 point hang of line arrays similar to the old dome had been specified and steel and conduit run so we dealt with existing locations. As the consultant spec’d in line arrays the stadium asked us to propose something, having lived with line arrays in the dome. Extensive models of both types of systems were done from those locations including a laborious process of making a detailed room model and then generating listenable predictions of “what it should sound like”.
Out of that and the EASE initial time gap predictions, what was very clear was that the line array’s big sonic flaw was it’s never shown horizontal pattern AND when curved, line arrays can radiate as much or more energy to the sides than they do forward and all of that adds to the room sound energy.
If you only have two and your outside, no problem from this, but indoors where the walls reflect all that energy back, that lowers intelligibility dramatically. Now imagine what 8 hangs of these, in a giant room all radiating strongly where other speakers should only be covering. Now imagine you add some delay rings all doing the same thing “just to be sure” like they did with Garth. You can reach an even SPL everywhere on the computer, but one can have completely unintelligible voices etc to the ear.
The root is the direct to reflected or conflicting sound level ratio, one needs the direct sound to be at least say +10dB over the background “noise” or reverberant level. There is an old “thumb rule” which shows the relationships at play here called the Hopkins Stryker equation from the installed sound area;
http://www.acousticworx.com/sound%20system%20design%20hopkins%20stryker%20formula.html
The nub of it is
The direct field can be improved by
• Increasing Q (source directivity)
• Move the listener closer to the source
• Increase absorption
• Reduce the number of sources N
• Aim the loudspeakers at the listener
Note that by increasing "N" from 1 to 2 will also increase the level of the reverberant field by 3dB. Keep the number of loudspeakers to an absolute minimum in difficult acoustic environments.
……………..
In the case of the line arrays you have very low horizontal directivity (Q) by comparison and are an acoustic system where most of the radiators radiate independently “N” (too far apart to add coherently) and then you have “N” systems of them.
AS the MB stadium is an hour away from the shop given traffic, Mike and Doug did go a bit over board so far as a “sports only pa system”, this is not that. This would have been loud enough for the Garth show and the -3dB point is 26Hz with “hair” if they wanted it.
As Dr Doug is fond of saying all the acoustic and electronic issues aside, a sound system is a lot like a sewer, what you get out, depends on what you put into it.
Here are a couple videos I took with a canon vixia r300 the night we were setting it up, using an Iphone as the source, this is the empty stadium and it was kind of hazy that night as they were putting the asphalt on the field (and had not aimed the spot lights ugh). If you wear headphones this is very much what it sounded like that night.
Each hang is two full range and two subs coupled, each of these hangs replaced a 16 box large format line array and a 14 box dbl 18 sub array, it goes louder AND provided subjectively “the same” sound everywhere and measured above or well above the required STIpa intelligibility everywhere.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/vt3ygtk2osu73rw/20170720192735.mts?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tqkyb5cpnqxmrhs/20170720192412.mts?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j6py19cck22tjk8/20170720195307.mts?dl=0
This was kind of cool, we had my daughter do some reading for the computer simulations of the systems, I found a wave file for the “other” approach
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kq6hh3unh30gjy9/low%20directivity%20female.wav?dl=0
And then here is what recorded on the field with all the speakers on. The two ends of the field (the goal is to never be in more than one speaker’s coverage, one direct arrival) are covered by one speaker at each end aimed down.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bs7hwehv8zrffbj/20170803185306.mts?dl=0
So could one do a live show there, you bet and that was the intention but it’s off to a shaky start, oh well, maybe we will get around that pesky rider issue eventually
Best,
Tom
Fixed links i hope
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Given the amount of money at stake for these kinds of tours and how far in advanced they are planned, one could imagine that it wouldnt be such a stretch to send someone out to investigate potential existing venue systems
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Maybe someone should sneak in and turn the house system on just before soundcheck 8)
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Until every venue starts to care about audio quality, has a good in house audio crew, and the budget to install and maintain the sound system, road crews will usually opt for their own rig.
The venues that I've worked are pretty much on the complete opposite spectrum of this thread: high school auditoriums. But the above holds true regardless of venue.
I've learned to never trust the sound system in a high school auditorium. I almost always bring my own gear. And mostly what I've done isn't concert sound; it's church services where the primary program material is the spoken word and the only music is accompaniment for congregational singing, so the demands aren't high. But high school auditorium sound systems generally SUCK. Maybe they didn't used to suck, but they suck now. School districts are notorious for going with the cheapest possible system that makes noise, and never maintaining or upgrading it.
My high school was built in 1978. The auditorium STILL has the original speakers and 4-channel Bogen (not that Bogen is bad) mixer amp. They know it's bad. They don't even use it; they bring in the portable system that they use for pep rallies. That system is severely abused, but it still outperforms the system installed by the electricians in 1978. But they have no budget for a decent installed system. The control booth (where the Bogen amp sits) is a concrete box in the back with a 2' high by 8' wide window to the auditorium. (At least that was the case a few years ago. They had just started a plan to piggy bank proceeds from auditorium rental toward the purchase of a better sound system. Maybe they've finally got it upgraded.)
On top of that, most schools require that THEIR staff runs the sound system. Training seems to consist of telling a student "here's the volume knob." Then the student sits in the isolated sound booth reading a steamy novel while the system either can't be heard or is nearly ringing into feedback.
There is one local high school auditorium that has a passable sound system. But that school district markets the auditorium as a performing arts venue, and they actually have a budget for maintaining it. They also have a somewhat competent employee who is familiar with the system and seems to know a thing or two about operating it. This is the only high school auditorium where I don't bring my own equipment.
There's also something to be said for using familiar equipment. Even if the installed system is phenomenal, a couple of hours of sound checks simply isn't enough to learn an unfamiliar system so you can use it to its best potential. It's quite possible that at the concert referenced in the original post, had they used the installed system, it could have ended up sounding worse than the touring system, due to operator unfamiliarity.
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Given the amount of money at stake for these kinds of tours and how far in advanced they are planned, one could imagine that it wouldnt be such a stretch to send someone out to investigate potential existing venue systems
And who are they going to send? The person they have hired to oversee their touring audio-who by the way-has a vested interst in making the touring sound system sounds the best? Even if they try to make a good faith unbiased judgement that's a tough order. In some situations (perhaps 1-2% of the venues?) it might be very obvious-but is it worth it for those?
It would be better for the consumer and the venue to have the best product-and ultimately the artist. But how often do we see corporate takeovers and changes made with the goal of making the quick dollar versus the longterm investment in a brand or product? There's little tangible incentive for the touring group to invest in the future of the venue.
As a troubleshooter in my day job, the obvious answer is schedule a day and do an A-B test-or maybe hire an act to perform at a ball game half-time where the only reasonable option is the house system and see what the result is-but even in my day job, sometimes office politics or $$'s get in the way of doing the best thing.
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We can speculate all day long about what happened in this show...my take away:
From the footage of the show I saw (multiple angles), it looks like the main PA was only covering the "lower bowl" of the stadium... I didn't see ANY delays...the comment from the MBC executives elude to the fact that the installed system WAS used on the Garth Brooks show. I'm assume that coverage was for the upper 2 tiers of the stadium. Does anyone think that the GB Clair Crew who are 300 shows deep into this tour would fuck things up so badly??? His engineers have been with him for years. Take a look at the architecture of this place. Big difference between a live band in-the-round on the 50-yard line and the control of an isolated announcer/referee/canned playback on game day. It's apples and oranges.
Hi
Perhaps the video’s didn’t show the delay hangs that were observed by one of our staff at the concert and to be clear, the house system was not used for the GB show. So far as where the system was aimed etc I don’t know, that “stuff” is a major concern in install though.
What I do know is that in that room, the line array system that was proposed was markedly inferior because of it’s inherent property in direct conflict with the requirement for intelligible sound in a difficult room as described above.
My take isn’t that Clair screwed up at all but that the concert sounded much like it would have if the stadium put in the line arrays instead and for the same exact reasons and just as the EASE models and computer auralizations showed, way too much energy into the room compared to the direct sound.
Generally speaking, I can’t think of a sound system that didn’t sound good playing caned music, that didn’t also sound very colored live. Acoustics and physics aside, garbage in equal’s garbage out or as once said Gigo.
On the other hand, I am sure what was going to the system sounded fine and it was as good as they could get it.
It was in fact sitting in a sky box Clair provided, dead center, listening to U-2 Zoo tour in the 80’s, using the Servodrive subs I made then that the light went on, the reason I couldn’t understand the words, even when the band and audience was quiet, was because of all the arrivals in time destroying articulation.
The 70+ s-4’s per side sounded fine individually but not when there are so many nearly identical arrivals in time. It did take me “a while” to figure out how to make one single strong enough arrival to do large spaces and enough directivity to work in bad rooms.
These systems did not evolve out of concert sound traditions and the need to be in and out fast etc but began on a clean sheet of paper with the boundary’s set by what needed to be accomplished acoustically.
The difference in sound / performance has allowed us to replace the arrays in about half of the country’s largest stadiums in 6 years, with very little advertising in fact Ivan’s posts are probably the most visibility we have here.
Hopefully you will get to hear what a good stadium can sound like, like LSU or Iowa etc.
Mixer man, pop on headphones, don’t you think you could mix a band one these systems…at 600+ feet and still you have 8k+?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tnsw5mb4v5vdlwq/20120726122124.mts?dl=0
Ever hear a Line array sound like that playing canned music?
Best,
Tom
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The bowl seating is something like 60K something or another. There are various seating sections they can pull out for special events-but are not normally used.
The additional seats were on the floor/field.
The place is larger than normal, because all of the seats are a couple inches wider than normal-so that expands the cubic volume of the space.
I have walked my share of the 100K college stadiums listening to the speaker system.
Walking this place is MUCH MUCH more tiring. Maybe I am just getting older :(
There are some serious acoustical issues that are NOT apparent from photos.
For example, behind the upper seats, there is a HUGE open "void" that the sound gets into and just "rattles around for a bit" before it comes back out.
So in all how bad are the acoustics of the building? Was there any acoustic remediation done at all? Or were you expected to fix everything with electronics?
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We can speculate all day long about what happened
Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.
Mac
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And who are they going to send? The person they have hired to oversee their touring audio-who by the way-has a vested interst in making the touring sound system sounds the best? Even if they try to make a good faith unbiased judgement that's a tough order. In some situations (perhaps 1-2% of the venues?) it might be very obvious-but is it worth it for those?
Is it worth it? Well, the discussion in this thread is not how good the show sounded..
The money is there. Send someone trusted. Could be a producer. Could be someone who they have a good personal relationship with and is respected, just not applicable to their sound. Send a family member, a friend. Go themselves? Really, just send anyone besides someone from the production or promotion companies to play a few tracks and record the results. Tens of thousands of people paying good money and there is no way to advance the show because some trucks will be carrying speakers?
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Related... re sound in indoor arenas: I swore off attending concerts in large indoor arenas about 20 years ago after having so many bad experiences. Then my girlfriend surprised me with tickets to see the Eagles in a large indoor arena. This was on their last tour a few months before Glenn Frey passed. I have no idea if it was a tour or house system; all I know is that it was superb. I never thought it could sound that good. It was spiritual. ;D
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And who are they going to send? The person they have hired to oversee their touring audio-who by the way-has a vested interst in making the touring sound system sounds the best? Even if they try to make a good faith unbiased judgement that's a tough order. In some situations (perhaps 1-2% of the venues?) it might be very obvious-but is it worth it for those?
Yes. You send an "Advance Tech". That's what their job is, to do a site visit and determine what the needs of the show are, if any of the in house systems are usable and to what degree. They confer with the touring head and make those decisions based on what needs to be done. It's really not that hard, nor is it that expensive. Some airfare and a hotel room for a night or two. Some guys even really like doing the advance work because get they get to travel a few days and then go home for a week or two between shows and don't have to be living on the road, eating catering and sleeping on a bus every night for 6 to 24 months at a time.
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So in all how bad are the acoustics of the building? Was there any acoustic remediation done at all? Or were you expected to fix everything with electronics?
It is my understanding that there was acoustic treatment included in the design but it has not been installed at this time.
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It is my understanding that there was acoustic treatment included in the design but it has not been installed at this time.
👎🏼
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Yes. You send an "Advance Tech". That's what their job is, to do a site visit and determine what the needs of the show are, if any of the in house systems are usable and to what degree. They confer with the touring head and make those decisions based on what needs to be done. It's really not that hard, nor is it that expensive. Some airfare and a hotel room for a night or two. Some guys even really like doing the advance work because get they get to travel a few days and then go home for a week or two between shows and don't have to be living on the road, eating catering and sleeping on a bus every night for 6 to 24 months at a time.
yup.
I'd be fine doing this kind of thing. And i'm sure there's plenty of other grey-haired but not dead yet guys out there that would be just as happy to do it as well. For a tour of the magnitude we're talking about it'd be a tiny expense.
There's plenty of guys out there with the experience and knowledge to do this kind of thing. But the real issue is trust. They would have to be someone that the tour audio guys REALLY trust, and most of them barely have a stable of trusted techs large enough to fill all the normal touring positions. As usual, this problem isn't really a practical one, it's a human one....
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yup.
I'd be fine doing this kind of thing. And i'm sure there's plenty of other grey-haired but not dead yet guys out there that would be just as happy to do it as well. For a tour of the magnitude we're talking about it'd be a tiny expense.
There's plenty of guys out there with the experience and knowledge to do this kind of thing. But the real issue is trust. They would have to be someone that the tour audio guys REALLY trust, and most of them barely have a stable of trusted techs large enough to fill all the normal touring positions. As usual, this problem isn't really a practical one, it's a human one....
And what happens when the advance guy says the rig is fine, but on show day that doesn't end up being the case (which could be due to any number of factors).
I have a hard time faulting Clair for wanting to use their own rig.
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And what happens when the advance guy says the rig is fine, but on show day that doesn't end up being the case (which could be due to any number of factors).
I have a hard time faulting Clair for wanting to use their own rig.
Well, in practice i don't think that it would be a 'use the house rig' vs. 'use the touring rig'. It would be more of a scouting expedition to see what the problem areas of the venue were and whether any of the house system was already well suited to solve some of those issues. It's also a way to introduce the tour to the venue staff, which can help smooth a LOT of things later on.
But, the bottom line is that the advance guy/girl has to know their stuff and the touring guy/girl needs to already have a trust relationship with that person. I think the issue is finding qualified people who would want to do this kind of job and who also already have those relationships....
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And what happens when the advance guy says the rig is fine, but on show day that doesn't end up being the case (which could be due to any number of factors).
I have a hard time faulting Clair for wanting to use their own rig.
Then he's the one who made the wrong decision, or (like almost all touring shows) they failed to advance their show with the house properly. Making the correct determination about how to load in, load out, and what of the house stuff to use is the job of the advance tech and/or the head of that department for the tour.
Case in point: Clair used all their own rig, and by many hundreds of documents accounts, it sounded like shit. Who's fault is that? Clearly Clair is a bunch of cowards and are not going to man up and take the blame for making the wrong decision and offer refunds out of their cut to all of the people who were disappointed by the experience they had. IF those people get refunds, it will come out of the house's cut--which isn't right because it wasn't their wrong decision. It was the wrong decision of the touring company/staff, i.e. Clair Global.
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It is my understanding that there was acoustic treatment included in the design but it has not been installed at this time.
In order for the original designed system (line arrays), the designer proposed $3,000,000.00 worth of acoustical treatment in order to get the model to get a STIpa of 0.5.
The current installed system modeled STIpa at 0.65 with NO acoustical treatment.
So none was installed.
That may change now. With will only increase the STIpa measurement :)
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We can speculate all day long about what happened in this show...my take away:
From the footage of the show I saw (multiple angles), it looks like the main PA was only covering the "lower bowl" of the stadium... I didn't see ANY delays...the comment from the MBC executives elude to the fact that the installed system WAS used on the Garth Brooks show.
First you MUST use your full real name on these forums.
Second. Look at the photo below. You can CLEARLY see the delays. There are 10 hangs (not all are shown in the photo)
Those line arrays are NOT the house system. There are NO line arrays in the house system.
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First you MUST use your full real name on these forums.
Second. Look at the photo below. You can CLEARLY see the delays. There are 10 hangs (not all are shown in the photo)
Those line arrays are NOT the house system. There are NO line arrays in the house system.
That picture truly puts the scale of that room in perspective. That is a huge space. It makes the Q in Cleveland look like a shed.
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That picture truly puts the scale of that room in perspective. That is a huge space. It makes the Q in Cleveland look like a shed.
And that place makes where he played nearest me seem like an outhouse!
-Billings MT where he played a 10,000 seat rodeo arena. Had to do 5 shows (In 3 days) to fit everyone in.
That particular space definitely needed full production support, -Atlanta not so much it seems.
Although getting tours to use properly installed house systems is firmly against the decades-long traditions that unfortunately already have a lock on our relatively new industry.
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And that place makes where he played nearest me seem like an outhouse!
-Billings MT where he played a 10,000 seat rodeo arena. Had to do 5 shows (In 3 days) to fit everyone in.
That particular space definitely needed full production support, -Atlanta not so much it seems.
Although getting tours to use properly installed house systems is firmly against the decades-long traditions that unfortunately already have a lock on our relatively new industry.
Gentlemen and Ladies, see Craig's definitive answer in bold. Ultimately it's a "people" issue.
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Gentlemen and Ladies, see Craig's definitive answer in bold. Ultimately it's a "people" issue.
But that's not unique to this industry. In almost any industry you will find procedures in place that when you really get the honest answer to "Why are we doing it this way this time?" the answer is "Because we did it that way last time" or "because we always do it that way".
It takes effort to step back, look and figure out the best way to do any job. Of course, you also have to balance that with not re-inventing the wheel everytime!
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That picture truly puts the scale of that room in perspective. That is a huge space. It makes the Q in Cleveland look like a shed.
Scott, its possible that Ivan, Tom D, and I are the only people in this thread who have physically spent time in this room. It is HUGE, the entirety of the adjacent old stadium (roof included) would fit inside the air conditioned volume of this space.
For scale in the photo above of the Clair Cohesion delays, the very dark area that you see is a 360 degree video wall hung above the upper deck seating. This wall is 53' feet high. You can just see the supporting steel at the top of the wall in the middle of the photo. And then there's a retractable center roof above that. I've attached a better picture of that video wall structure below.
Also, unlike a typical stadium, the concourses are very deep and spacious. There are very substantial volumes of space behind every area of seating. For perspective, I've attached a picture of one of the 4 sided bars that ring the main seating level. There are at least 4 bars this size. I've also attached a view of the "standard" food stall throughout the building. These ring the seating. Bathrooms are tucked behind them.
Large horns, or a full range cardioid-type array would be the only feasible approaches in this room.
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...
Although getting tours to use properly installed house systems is firmly against the decades-long traditions that unfortunately already have a lock on our relatively new industry.
As usual someone else finds a way to say what i meant to say with greater clarity and far fewer words.
tl;dr this^^
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Also note that tying in to house systems is not in the financial interest of the PA system provider. Further, it requires a tacit admission that "our work and products are not up to the task." NOBODY wants to communicate that to clients.
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Also note that tying in to house systems is not in the financial interest of the PA system provider. Further, it requires a tacit admission that "our work and products are not up to the task." NOBODY wants to communicate that to clients.
Perfect. You summed up this thread in 2 lines.
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Also note that tying in to house systems is not in the financial interest of the PA system provider. Further, it requires a tacit admission that "our work and products are not up to the task." NOBODY wants to communicate that to clients.
So instead, you SHOW 80,000 paying customers ?
I dunno, there's got to be a middle ground somewhere.
What are the chances that the A-1 took one look around, and said "Shit. This is going to be a BAD night".
I know I've done that once or twice when rig provided was not up to the task at hand. i made it all work out, but jeez. 4 times the budget would have been nice.
Chris.
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What are the chances that the A-1 took one look around, and said "Shit. This is going to be a BAD night".
I'm willing to bet he got paid. So it was a good night for him.
The reality is that some touring people are wiling to use the some/all of the house systems. Some aren't. I've had Broadway tours come in that have tied into my main PA system while hanging and running their own main system, as well as tie into my balcony delays. Most of the Broadway tours will tie into our balcony system and FOH/Backstage program systems. A few have nto tied into anything except our hearing assist. :-\
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Phil...amazing. thanks for the pics.
I was recovering from surgery during the Republican convention and moving slowly. Poor Henry Cohen was patient with me. The walk from the broadcast truck bays to the floor was about 1/2 mile. Can't imaging how physically taxing working MB must be.
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Justice...Most folks are risk averse and making the two systems play together is outside their comfort zone. All risk with little reward. If it works who is going to notice and reward the positive behavior. If it doesn't work it's on the engineers head.
On the other hand deploying the system as designed affords little personal risk. Doing what your told you can't be blamed for a negative outcome.
On a small scale we did a dance/cheer event at a local venue with about a 10k cap. Our scope was to deploy our stacks and make the deck bump for the kids and parents.
Lots of announcements and people milling around the venue manager from the local offered a tie in to the venue system. We compressed the music and added in the announcement mics and sent the mix to them. The promoter said nobody had done that before. We got more dates from the company.
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I'm willing to bet he got paid. So it was a good night for him.
If the only criteria on "good night" is getting paid, why are we even having this discussion?
It was obviously not a good night.
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The advice on these audio boards is ALWAYS do what is rider friendly, has proven ROI, and is cross rentable.
Doing anything for the simple reason that it sounds good is NEVER good business advice.
One bad gig is not going to change any industry standards.
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The advice on these audio boards is ALWAYS do what is rider friendly, has proven ROI, and is cross rentable.
Doing anything for the simple reason that it sounds good is NEVER good business advice.
One bad gig is not going to change any industry standards.
What this is more likely to do: eliminate MB Stadium as a concert venue - no promoter wants the liability of refunding tickets and no artist's manager will accept that liability, or the costs to provide enough PA to provide the "experience" will result in onerous price increases.
What is unlikely to happen: tying in to the house system unless the VENUE subsidizes the cost of the advancing, provides free rent for the additional day of use while integrating, aligning and optimizing the tour & installed systems, and provides the house system at no additional charge to tour or promoter. This doesn't include another days rental on the tour PA, the costs of touring crew, and the loss of revenue by having those assets tied up on a non-performance day. Note that this also precludes the tour from a paying date.
We'll know in 6 months to a year or so how my predictions turn out.
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or the costs to provide enough PA to provide the "experience" will result in onerous price increases.
A) shouldn't this be scaleable? $X/ticket goes to production. With 80,000X you should have enough to give sound to the audience.
1A) Isn't this also a given paradox? That part of the experience is going to be the experience of 80,000 people, and that you are going to have to give up something in return? EG, not being able to even tell if that is Garth Brooks on stage.
2) Isn't it ironic that I have a Clair Bros ad banner on my page?
I agree that the market will figure itself out. I already have. I would much rather go to a smaller venue, or a house concert, but sometimes I have to brave the crowds to see certain acts.
It just seems like a lot of hand wringing with advise that runs counter to what is usually posited here.
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Note that this also precludes the tour from a paying date.
This kind of states that there was a void there before, and that there are no other places to play. I'm sure the lure of an 80,000 person pay date is attractive, but that there was another more proven venue that they will go back to.
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A) shouldn't this be scaleable? $X/ticket goes to production. With 80,000X you should have enough to give sound to the audience.
1A) Isn't this also a given paradox? That part of the experience is going to be the experience of 80,000 people, and that you are going to have to give up something in return? EG, not being able to even tell if that is Garth Brooks on stage.
2) Isn't it ironic that I have a Clair Bros ad banner on my page?
I agree that the market will figure itself out. I already have. I would much rather go to a smaller venue, or a house concert, but sometimes I have to brave the crowds to see certain acts.
It just seems like a lot of hand wringing with advise that runs counter to what is usually posited here.
The top end concert provisioning biz is not the same business that most of us at the regional, local, or lounge-level experience. To quote someone else, whatever ain't physics is psychology. I'm sure there was much hand-wringing and clutching of pearls in Lititz , Nashville and in Stillwater over this. The immediate way to avoid massive negative publicity is to NOT DO what garnered that negativity. That's the first step.
I'm not sure that scaling up the production to the expectation of "the experience" is commensurate with ticket prices and the cheapest seats are the ones needing the most enhancement. Couple this with the resonant cavities that Ivan mentions and Phil provided pictures of and the challenge is not just hanging more PA around the bowl.
Avoiding MB Stadium until all the pesky details are worked out (more PA? House system tie-in? Acoustical treatment as recommended by another installation design?) is the likely outcome. The economies of scale for an act like Garth Brooks is based on playing 1 date for 60k-80k versus playing 5 dates for the same number of people; what will make the difference is how much resources must be deployed (time & money) to make MB Stadium an acceptable environment for that one show day. If it takes a week of non-revenue generating days to make this all work, it's mostly a wash as the artist would be better off playing shows for fans than paying salary and per diems to the band and its artistic crew while waiting for MB Stadium to be ready.
No matter what, I will further predict that ticket prices will increase by 20% because of the cost of providing "the experience" in that venue, regardless of what the technical details are.
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I'm sure there was much hand-wringing and clutching of pearls in Lititz , Nashville and in Stillwater over this.
I have kind of ended up arguing with you, when you were the person I generally agreed with in the thread.
My point was that A1 dude seems to be taking a lot of flack for something that is not only beyond his control, but also when he has pretty much followed protocol as to what the LAB dictates.
Everything else, including economics, is out of his control.
The hand wringing I was talking about was that being expressed here, in how he messed up.
The immediate way to avoid massive negative publicity is to NOT DO what garnered that negativity. That's the first step.
I'm thinking that the first step is to not play this place again, which gets us back to playing the smaller places, or not performing.
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Everyone here realizes that at least a dozen top back row patrons of the ancient theatre of Dionysus griped about not being able to hear, right? This is the oldest discussion in show biz.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/c0e610f6e32b2f207adc980bfb7999e0.jpg)
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Everyone here realizes that at least a dozen top back row patrons of the ancient theatre of Dionysus griped about not being able to hear, right? This is the oldest discussion in show biz.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/c0e610f6e32b2f207adc980bfb7999e0.jpg)
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For a few drachma more you can get closer...
Jack, we're in agreement. It's going to take time to figure out where the various turf boundaries are, what the potential fixes are and who will pay for them.
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and who will pay for them.
Amen.
Mac
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So it appears as if they will tie into the house system at the next concert
https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2017/10/18/kenny-chesney-follows-garth-brooks-ed-sheeran-with.html
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So it appears as if they will tie into the house system at the next concert
https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2017/10/18/kenny-chesney-follows-garth-brooks-ed-sheeran-with.html
Next concert May 26, 2018?
Few will remember the sucking sound in the upper ring by then, the masses go to "see the show", not hear it...
Garth's "in the round" approach could not have worked properly with a house system set for propagation from the point source above where Kenny will place the stage.
That said, whether it would have been worse or better with re-alignment of the upper ring house system interacting with Garth's in the round Clair mains/monitor system is a moot point now, since the option was not pursued.
With the stupid slow video lag using digital processing, at the far ends of the arena it may line up to the sound in the "nose bleed" seats for Kenny.
I always bring binoculars or "opera glasses" to big shows, have always hated video lagging audio, it's so "faky" it reminds me of the worst sci-fi dubbed in movies from the 1960's.
OK, rant over..
Sayonara,
Gojira
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Everyone here realizes that at least a dozen top back row patrons of the ancient theatre of Dionysus griped about not being able to hear, right? This is the oldest discussion in show biz.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/c0e610f6e32b2f207adc980bfb7999e0.jpg)
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They clearly needed a bigger horn. 8)
JR
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So it appears as if they will tie into the house system at the next concert
https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2017/10/18/kenny-chesney-follows-garth-brooks-ed-sheeran-with.html (https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2017/10/18/kenny-chesney-follows-garth-brooks-ed-sheeran-with.html)
Haskell said his company's approach with Chesney is to go inside a new stadium about six months before the show to see where the crews will be staged and to take note of what equipment the house has available.
"Now, does that involve tying into the house system? Ninety percent of the time with a stadium of this size, absolutely it does because it's a matter of physics," he said. "Wherever you're trying to go, there are areas that they've invested millions of dollars in to make sure those high points in the area [sound fine]. Most of the time it involves tying in."
WHAT!!! You mean they are going to advance their show and make use of them systems already in place to help cover areas that their touring rig isn't equipped to handle?
UNPOSSIBLE!
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Next concert May 26, 2018?
Few will remember the sucking sound in the upper ring by then, the masses go to "see the show", not hear it...
Garth's "in the round" approach could not have worked properly with a house system set for propagation from the point source above where Kenny will place the stage.
That said, whether it would have been worse or better with re-alignment of the upper ring house system interacting with Garth's in the round Clair mains/monitor system is a moot point now, since the option was not pursued.
With the stupid slow video lag using digital processing, at the far ends of the arena it may line up to the sound in the "nose bleed" seats for Kenny.
I always bring binoculars or "opera glasses" to big shows, have always hated video lagging audio, it's so "faky" it reminds me of the worst sci-fi dubbed in movies from the 1960's.
OK, rant over..
Sayonara,
Gojira
I seriously doubt the *in house* video processing delays get addressed as they're moot issues in sports IMAG and I'm not sure the majority of concert attendees care about it (yet) so long as they can get drunk/high/post pics and videos on Face Space and InstaTwit.
As you point out, where the tour puts their PA changes everything, every time. That the house install is designed to radiate out from the center (scoreboard localization) means that there will be another week of alignment to create system input(s) suitable for an end stage placement and likely an in-the-round placement. I still foresee the need for an advance SE visit and probably a day of advance Smaart/SIM/SysTune work, maybe more.
It looks like the revenue potential exists for promoters and providers to do the work; now it's a matter of having a way to gauge how much ticket prices increase because of this. As a new venue with little history it will be hard to track and I'm certain none of the entities involved will be disclosing that information.
"If you build it too big, it will suck bigger". - Me
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Everyone here realizes that at least a dozen top back row patrons of the ancient theatre of Dionysus griped about not being able to hear, right? This is the oldest discussion in show biz.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171019/c0e610f6e32b2f207adc980bfb7999e0.jpg)
Back then, they just threw the sound guy to the lions if they couldn't hear.
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Phil...amazing. thanks for the pics.
I was recovering from surgery during the Republican convention and moving slowly. Poor Henry Cohen was patient with me. The walk from the broadcast truck bays to the floor was about 1/2 mile. Can't imaging how physically taxing working MB must be.
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Scott,
It's quite the structure. Simultaneously completely silly and a great experience as an attending fan. Spacious, excellent food, lots of places to mill about/explore. It was way over budget, but it does seem like Mr. Blank continued to say "yes" even though the numbers increased.
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The other aspect of municipal stadiums is the sound bleed. Sheeran cancelled his show at Levi's here in Santa Clara because of the noise curfew. It seems to me that a high directivity system properly deployed could make the difference between annoying the neighbors and being actually able to present events. Which would end up requiring tours to use the house system so that the outside SPLs could be guaranteed to the city council.
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The other aspect of municipal stadiums is the sound bleed. Sheeran cancelled his show at Levi's here in Santa Clara because of the noise curfew. It seems to me that a high directivity system properly deployed could make the difference between annoying the neighbors and being actually able to present events. Which would end up requiring tours to use the house system so that the outside SPLs could be guaranteed to the city council.
It’s a discussion that’s regularly had in our municipality... the Greek in LA requires the use of the house system. Unfortunately we aren’t them, and most tours would just go somewhere else if we tried to leverage that sort of rule....
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It seems to me that selective use of the house system and dedicating a L&R omni with appropriate delay applied would be a benefit. I would think that if you are mixing in an arena, this is information that should be made available ahead of time so that there is ample time for even a rudimentary approach to be formulated. Whatever zones were mapped out with the installation should be available on request I am sure.
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It’s a discussion that’s regularly had in our municipality... the Greek in LA requires the use of the house system. Unfortunately we aren’t them, and most tours would just go somewhere else if we tried to leverage that sort of rule....
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Does Dirk Schubert still have the contract for the Greek? Our first 16 VerTec 4889s and 2 I-Tech racks came from there... I recall he put in a d&b system and later replaced it a year later.
JBL worked with Dirk to build custom presets to help address the noise control complaints from the folks who built homes on the side of the hill (after the next 6.0 quake, they'll be on the Greek Theater stage). These were the presets in the I-Techs when we received them and after giving them a quick listen I can only call the efforts 'heroic' but I can't say they sounded good. Reference the Classic LAB topic about noise control and people that build near noisy stuff and expect the established 'polluter' to change...
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Does Dirk Schubert still have the contract for the Greek? Our first 16 VerTec 4889s and 2 I-Tech racks came from there... I recall he put in a d&b system and later replaced it a year later.
JBL worked with Dirk to build custom presets to help address the noise control complaints from the folks who built homes on the side of the hill (after the next 6.0 quake, they'll be on the Greek Theater stage). These were the presets in the I-Techs when we received them and after giving them a quick listen I can only call the efforts 'heroic' but I can't say they sounded good. Reference the Classic LAB topic about noise control and people that build near noisy stuff and expect the established 'polluter' to change...
Tim; That would be similar to folks who bought properties directly across a four-lane road, not a highway, just a road, from our nearest oil refinery then complained about the smell of oil on their patios when the winds blew out of the south. Similarly, folks purchased homes immediately beside and / or across the street from a three story pig slaughtering, rendering and meat processing plant then complained about the stench of swine on delivery days and excrement at slaughtering times. The hog processing plant built more than fifty years ago when the city's outskirts were still two miles west of them.
'nough said. Go figure.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
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Tim; That would be similar to folks who bought properties directly across a four-lane road, not a highway, just a road, from our nearest oil refinery then complained about the smell of oil on their patios when the winds blew out of the south. Similarly, folks purchased homes immediately beside and / or across the street from a three story pig slaughtering, rendering and meat processing plant then complained about the stench of swine on delivery days and excrement at slaughtering times. The hog processing plant built more than fifty years ago when the city's outskirts were still two miles west of them.
'nough said. Go figure.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
"Hey, I got a great deal on this 3 bedroom bungalow beside runway 24L. gotta talk to my city councilor about all the noise when the planes are taking off....."
Chris.
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Tim; That would be similar to folks who bought properties directly across a four-lane road, not a highway, just a road, from our nearest oil refinery then complained about the smell of oil on their patios when the winds blew out of the south. Similarly, folks purchased homes immediately beside and / or across the street from a three story pig slaughtering, rendering and meat processing plant then complained about the stench of swine on delivery days and excrement at slaughtering times. The hog processing plant built more than fifty years ago when the city's outskirts were still two miles west of them.
'nough said. Go figure.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
I'm sure we could all share stories from our own towns/cities; ok, guess I will. :-)
We have a similar scenario here... a local brewery with an outdoor Bier Garten that features a pretty decent live sound stage is now battling the city and neighbors. The brewery has been in its current location for 30+ years, and the Bier Garten has been an integral/important part of their business. It's really quite gorgeous, comfortable, and inviting. People bring their kids, pets, etc., and everyone just gets along. Lots of picnic tables, huge shade canopy, lots of trees, etc.
The brewery regularly hosts fundraiser events in the Garten for local charities and organizations. If I had to venture a guess, they probably hold 20-25 events throughout the summer. They also host a local bicycle club and serve as the start/finish point for weekly rides.
Music acts aren't outrageous - lots of folk/Americana/bluegrass type stuff, and they always end by around 9pm or so. The brewery closes by 10pm every night (if not earlier).
About a year or so ago, a developer built a hundred-plus-unit luxury apartment/condo complex about 100 feet from the back of the outdoor stage. The brewery now has regular complaints about noise (not only from music, but from the din of the crowds), and the cops seem to be there quite a bit with their SPL meter.
There was a fairly large event a few weekends ago - a Saturday afternoon - and it featured a fairly well-known regional/almost-national act. The show was stopped several times because of noise complaints. Now, mind you - they had about 1200 people there plus a fairly lively band. I'd understand somewhat if the event was during the evening hours, but it ran from 11am - 4pm...
It baffles me how city planners/permitting committees say "yes" to new developments like this while completely overlooking legacy buildings/establishments/settings. And, who moves-in to a place like that and then gets surprised that there's noise?
Making matters even more interesting, there's an active railway directly behind both the brewery and new apartment/condo complex, with numerous road crossings... the regular blasts from the train horns at all hours of the day/night have to be louder than the brewery. :-)
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Music acts aren't outrageous - lots of folk/Americana/bluegrass type stuff, and they always end by around 9pm or so. The brewery closes by 10pm every night (if not earlier).
About a year or so ago, a developer built a hundred-plus-unit luxury apartment/condo complex about 100 feet from the back of the outdoor stage. The brewery now has regular complaints about noise (not only from music, but from the din of the crowds), and the cops seem to be there quite a bit with their SPL meter.
There was a fairly large event a few weekends ago - a Saturday afternoon - and it featured a fairly well-known regional/almost-national act. The show was stopped several times because of noise complaints. Now, mind you - they had about 1200 people there plus a fairly lively band. I'd understand somewhat if the event was during the evening hours, but it ran from 11am - 4pm...
It baffles me how city planners/permitting committees say "yes" to new developments like this while completely overlooking legacy buildings/establishments/settings. And, who moves-in to a place like that and then gets surprised that there's noise?
Making matters even more interesting, there's an active railway directly behind both the brewery and new apartment/condo complex, with numerous road crossings... the regular blasts from the train horns at all hours of the day/night have to be louder than the brewery. :-)
The side I would argue to be correct, would depend on if I am at the party or resting in my living room.
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Tim; That would be similar to folks who bought properties directly across a four-lane road, not a highway, just a road, from our nearest oil refinery then complained about the smell of oil on their patios when the winds blew out of the south. Similarly, folks purchased homes immediately beside and / or across the street from a three story pig slaughtering, rendering and meat processing plant then complained about the stench of swine on delivery days and excrement at slaughtering times. The hog processing plant built more than fifty years ago when the city's outskirts were still two miles west of them.
'nough said. Go figure.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
Reminds me of the folks who move in next to the USAF base near me and then complain about the jet noise. The base has been around for nearly 80 years and jets are LOUD. And who would complain about fighter jet noise? After 31 years it's still music to my ears. ;D
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Reminds me of the folks who move in next to the USAF base near me and then complain about the jet noise. The base has been around for nearly 80 years and jets are LOUD. And who would complain about fighter jet noise? After 31 years it's still music to my ears. ;D
The jets probably weren't very loud there 80 years ago.
Perhaps in Germany?
JR
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The side I would argue to be correct, would depend on if I am at the party or resting in my living room.
If you care about noise it's on you to look for a house that does not have obvious noise issues. Today that is pretty easy. Find house online and look at it in Google maps satellite view. If you see an airport or other large noise facility move on. When looking at houses we did that. Easy to dismiss a potential house just looking at how many houses have green swimming pools (slum.)
When looking we found one house we really liked that was near a highway but they had a huge cement noise wall and really nice walk way/ park along said wall. We decided to drive out and take a listen about the time we would be home from work and resting out side. Never got out of the car, it was too noisy during rush hour traffic.
The house we bought has some barking dogs nearby. Were OK with that. It's a large dog and there is no crime on this block ;D
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The house we bought has some barking dogs nearby. Were OK with that. It's a large dog and there is no crime on this block ;D
Then the dog leaves presents on you front steps. You complain to the owner. The owner gets rid of the dog. Hoodlums takes presents from under your Christmas tree because no dogs are barking. (no leash law, or the dog can climb fences, or can dig under, whatever) Not everything is foreseeable. Noise-wise, the only real way to control your surroundings is to buy your surroundings.
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Then the dog leaves presents on you front steps. You complain to the owner. The owner gets rid of the dog. Hoodlums takes presents from under your Christmas tree because no dogs are barking. (no leash law, or the dog can climb fences, or can dig under, whatever) Not everything is foreseeable. Noise-wise, the only real way to control your surroundings is to buy your surroundings.
We have found it works best to be friends with our nebors. Also tall fences make for good nebors. We have 6ft block walls.
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The jets probably weren't very loud there 80 years ago.
Perhaps in Germany?
JR
Oh, did they complain in Germany, too? ;)
Even as recent as 25 years ago much of the land around the base was agricultural or land that was otherwise untouched. Obviously, I'm referring to people who moved next to an active air force base and then complained about the noise.
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Oh, did they complain in Germany, too? ;)
Even as recent as 25 years ago much of the land around the base was agricultural or land that was otherwise untouched. Obviously, I'm referring to people who moved next to an active air force base and then complained about the noise.
And I am referring to jets first being used by Germans in WWII close to 80 years ago.
US didn't get seriously into flying jets until Korea (less than 80 years ago).
JR
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The jets probably weren't very loud there 80 years ago.
Perhaps in Germany?
JR
No, but the airplanes were loud. Big planes make big noise too. ;-)
They still fire up some of the oldies and fly them around the valley. Loud.
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Oh, did they complain in Germany, too? ;)
germans treat complaining like a sport, lol
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germans treat complaining like a sport, lol
I believe that
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Nevermind - I saw the answer to my question about who provided the sound. This must really be an exceptionally abysmal acoustic space, even by stadium standards, if a premier company like Clair couldn't make a passable mix there.
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Nevermind - I saw the answer to my question about who provided the sound. This must really be an exceptionally abysmal acoustic space, even by stadium standards, if a premier company like Clair couldn't make a passable mix there.
One of the biggest problems is the way it was designed/built. In my opinion, the faulty design has nothing to do with "audience energy for sports", but rather a design for "openness".
Basically you have a big bowl seating area. Then a building around the bowl.
But on top of the bowl there is a LARGE open area that goes to the floors below.
So the sound that gets "directed" towards the side walls (via the domed roof), gets behind the seats, "rattles around a bit", then comes back out where it came from, AND flows down to the lower sections, and comes back out into the bowl via the vomitories, much latter in time.
Of course all of the mid and high information is gone, so all you have left is low end mush that just keeps going and going and going.
It is interesting to clap your hands when it is quiet. All you hear is the initial clap, then a couple of short reflections of stuff near you and nothing. Almost as being outside. Your hand clap simply can't energize the room enough. But loud sounds can.
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One of the biggest problems is the way it was designed/built. In my opinion, the faulty design has nothing to do with "audience energy for sports", but rather a design for "openness".
Basically you have a big bowl seating area. Then a building around the bowl.
But on top of the bowl there is a LARGE open area that goes to the floors below.
So the sound that gets "directed" towards the side walls (via the domed roof), gets behind the seats, "rattles around a bit", then comes back out where it came from, AND flows down to the lower sections, and comes back out into the bowl via the vomitories, much latter in time.
Of course all of the mid and high information is gone, so all you have left is low end mush that just keeps going and going and going.
It is interesting to clap your hands when it is quiet. All you hear is the initial clap, then a couple of short reflections of stuff near you and nothing. Almost as being outside. Your hand clap simply can't energize the room enough. But loud sounds can.
Ivan, from your description, I have a solution.
The only way to put on a decent presentation at that place is to use the parking lot.
Seriously.
Then you just have to worry about pissing off the neighbors, not the ticket holders.
Chris.
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One of the biggest problems is the way it was designed/built...
It is interesting to clap your hands when it is quiet. All you hear is the initial clap, then a couple of short reflections of stuff near you and nothing. Almost as being outside. Your hand clap simply can't energize the room enough. But loud sounds can.
I saw a Facebook thread discussing our version of what you're talking about - a $1B venue that you will all get to see this coming February. The venue is super, and it is a bowl-shaped one. Quite appropriate if you think about it, actually.
One solution suggested was one IEM transmitter and 60,000 IEM receivers. I think another would be running the concert at about 85dB with 200 speakers on sticks pointed at each section. My personal plan is to be as far away from the venue as possible.
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One of the biggest problems is the way it was designed/built. In my opinion, the faulty design has nothing to do with "audience energy for sports", but rather a design for "openness".
Basically you have a big bowl seating area. Then a building around the bowl.
But on top of the bowl there is a LARGE open area that goes to the floors below.
So the sound that gets "directed" towards the side walls (via the domed roof), gets behind the seats, "rattles around a bit", then comes back out where it came from, AND flows down to the lower sections, and comes back out into the bowl via the vomitories, much latter in time.
Of course all of the mid and high information is gone, so all you have left is low end mush that just keeps going and going and going.
It is interesting to clap your hands when it is quiet. All you hear is the initial clap, then a couple of short reflections of stuff near you and nothing. Almost as being outside. Your hand clap simply can't energize the room enough. But loud sounds can.
Ivan,
Any distinguishable difference when the roof opens? Was it even openable when you were tweeking, and did you build a preset for open vs closed? I know for the opening games (at least Alabama / Fla St) the roof could not be opened because they were behind schedule.
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Ivan, from your description, I have a solution.
The only way to put on a decent presentation at that place is to use the parking lot.
What parking lot? This is downtown Atlanta and almost no parking. Most people use public transit to get there.
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Ivan,
Any distinguishable difference when the roof opens? Was it even openable when you were tweeking, and did you build a preset for open vs closed? I know for the opening games (at least Alabama / Fla St) the roof could not be opened because they were behind schedule.
The RT60 is less when the roof is open.
During the alignments (which were random days over several weeks-we were having to work around construction still going on), it would take "an act of congress" to get it open or closed as needed. There were (maybe still is) issues getting it to work properly-I am not sure.
It was open the first night of tuning (but most of that night was not actually tuning, but getting ready and tracing down install issues), but closed all of the other nights of tuning.
There is very little that tuning can do for that type of reverb. I tried a "little trick" that I sometimes use, which is measuring the RT60 and if there is a "standout" freq, notch it so that it does not energize the room so much. When we did that, it took out the impact of the music, so we didn't do it.
What is interesting in listening to spoken word through the house system, it is clear and you can easily understand, but after a couple of seconds the room "builds up" and you hear this indistinct reverb (that seems very disconnected from the actual source) that is in the background.
When you consider that some of the paths (to and from) can exceed 1.5 seconds, it is not a "normal" room. Directivity without lobes is your friend in a place like this.
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It sounds like a massive acoustic treatment could help,,, expensive and perhaps hard to justify.
JR
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It sounds like a massive acoustic treatment could help,,, expensive and perhaps hard to justify.
JR
Up thread Ivan mentioned that one of the things on another proposal was $3m worth of acoustic treatments, treatments that DSL's design did not require.
The LF mush build up that occurs because there are essentially low pass filters built into the architecture - that's a major design fail. It exemplifies the negative impact of Project Creep during construction - things get done because they seem like a good idea, without regard to impact on anything but mechanical systems and pedestrian/personnel access (and sometimes not those, either).
This will be another stadium I'll be happy to avoid for any reason.
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Up thread Ivan mentioned that one of the things on another proposal was $3m worth of acoustic treatments, treatments that DSL's design did not require.
The LF mush build up that occurs because there are essentially low pass filters built into the architecture - that's a major design fail. It exemplifies the negative impact of Project Creep during construction - things get done because they seem like a good idea, without regard to impact on anything but mechanical systems and pedestrian/personnel access (and sometimes not those, either).
This will be another stadium I'll be happy to avoid for any reason.
Of course the "acoustic prediction" was based on STIpa-so vocal intelligibility, NOT full range music. The main reason was that in the old facility, there was literally no intellilgibility. You could make out every couple of words-IF you were lucky. The "management" wanted much better clarity. Which they have.
The "big mush" is down below 150Hz or so, 90Hzish is what comes to mind.
Stopping or absorbing THOSE freq are a whole different ball game.
The $3million, would have been for the vocal range (if they had gone with the previous design), and would still not really address the deeper freq.
My gut feeling is that to lower the long RT to an acceptable level is going to take A LOT more than $3m. I think at least another zero.
When you see the shear size of the space and the areas to be treated, you say WOW, that's gonna take A BUNCH of fuzz---------------- :)
Some real design and consideration needs to be done, and not just "throwing up some fuzz", which won't address the real issue. In this case, putting lots of stuff in the wrong place is a complete waste of money.
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What parking lot? This is downtown Atlanta and almost no parking. Most people use public transit to get there.
Sorry Buddy,
yer screwed ! 8)
Well, not you. The paying show-goer is screwed.
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Up thread Ivan mentioned that one of the things on another proposal was $3m worth of acoustic treatments, treatments that DSL's design did not require.
The LF mush build up that occurs because there are essentially low pass filters built into the architecture - that's a major design fail. It exemplifies the negative impact of Project Creep during construction - things get done because they seem like a good idea, without regard to impact on anything but mechanical systems and pedestrian/personnel access (and sometimes not those, either).
This will be another stadium I'll be happy to avoid for any reason.
For sports events they probably don't mind the LF reverberation build up (louder means more excitement), for music not so much.
JR
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Of course the "acoustic prediction" was based on STIpa-so vocal intelligibility, NOT full range music. The main reason was that in the old facility, there was literally no intellilgibility. You could make out every couple of words-IF you were lucky. The "management" wanted much better clarity. Which they have.
The "big mush" is down below 150Hz or so, 90Hzish is what comes to mind.
Stopping or absorbing THOSE freq are a whole different ball game.
The $3million, would have been for the vocal range (if they had gone with the previous design), and would still not really address the deeper freq.
My gut feeling is that to lower the long RT to an acceptable level is going to take A LOT more than $3m. I think at least another zero.
When you see the shear size of the space and the areas to be treated, you say WOW, that's gonna take A BUNCH of fuzz---------------- :)
Some real design and consideration needs to be done, and not just "throwing up some fuzz", which won't address the real issue. In this case, putting lots of stuff in the wrong place is a complete waste of money.
Perhaps the most sensible thing to do for the largest musical acts playing Atlanta is to simply avoid this hole, and continue to use Ga. Tech's stadium, which is more of a neutral acoustic space. I still remember how fabulous the sound was at Pink Floyd's Division Bell tour show there in the '90s.
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Perhaps the most sensible thing to do for the largest musical acts playing Atlanta is to simply avoid this hole, and continue to use Ga. Tech's stadium, which is more of a neutral acoustic space. I still remember how fabulous the sound was at Pink Floyd's Division Bell tour show there in the '90s.
Was that a quadraphonic tour?
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Was that a quadraphonic tour?
http://pfco.neptunepinkfloyd.co.uk/band/interviews/art-rev/art-sosxtra.html
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"Some real design and consideration needs to be done, and not just "throwing up some fuzz", which won't address the real issue. In this case, putting lots of stuff in the wrong place is a complete waste of money."
Which is the tragedy which repeats itself, year after year…..
It never stopped to amaze me, during my 25 years on the road, how little attention to sound /the use of
the new Consert Hall-Community Hall-Big Arena etc the the people who picked up the bill paid to this.
If an exprerienced sound engineer or installation firm had just a day or two, early in the project,
so much time and money would be saved. And a better experience/result for all.
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Hey hey all. It just so happens I worked the in and out for what I think was the next gig on this Garth tour in Lincoln, NE, and I was on audio, and had a minute to ask the guy I was working with about this on the load out. He pretty much told me this whole gig was f***ed from the beginning. He had tons of trouble advancing, because I believe he said the venue was brand new, and that he had to hire on extra people just to make it happen. He said they, the venue, were pretty much not prepared to do a huge concert yet. He said at load out, they had hardly any loaders or something like that, and that it took them to 6 am to get out of there. This was days later, and he said he was still recovering, and you could tell. Sounded to me like the whole crew knew going into this gig that things weren't up to the usual standards on their end, despite doing everything they could beforehand. Dude was run ragged. My two cents. I don't think these guys even had the time to tweak things and make it all sound amazing everywhere. Sounds like they were just trying to get it all working so the show could happen and it was all a mess. My two cents.
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I don't think these guys even had the time to tweak things and make it all sound amazing everywhere.
How many concerts (of a decently large scale) have you been to that had it "sounding amazing everywhere"? That would be pretty rare. A friend of mine attended a high profile (ie big name) show and had pretty decent seats in a different "large" venue.
The PA was supposedly know for "providing the same sound everywhere". He said it was fine during the songs-because you "already knew all the words". But when the artist was talking between songs, everybody around them was saying "can you understand what he is saying?"
I would not call that "sounding amazing" everywhere.
Trust me on this, having some more time to "tweak" would not have fixed the major problems in this room with the gear that was used.
A friend of mine overheard a conversation on the train ride in to the stadium for the football game after the concert.
A lady said she has been working concerts at the major arenas in downtown Atlanta for years.
What stood out for her was how short the sound check was. She said it was about 20 minutes. That seemed very unusual to her, and she is a "food concession" lady, not an audio person.
I was not there, so have no idea about the actual soundcheck, just relaying what was overheard.
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How many concerts (of a decently large scale) have you been to that had it "sounding amazing everywhere"? That would be pretty rare. A friend of mine attended a high profile (ie big name) show and had pretty decent seats in a different "large" venue.
The PA was supposedly know for "providing the same sound everywhere". He said it was fine during the songs-because you "already knew all the words". But when the artist was talking between songs, everybody around them was saying "can you understand what he is saying?"
I would not call that "sounding amazing" everywhere.
Trust me on this, having some more time to "tweak" would not have fixed the major problems in this room with the gear that was used.
A friend of mine overheard a conversation on the train ride in to the stadium for the football game after the concert.
A lady said she has been working concerts at the major arenas in downtown Atlanta for years.
What stood out for her was how short the sound check was. She said it was about 20 minutes. That seemed very unusual to her, and she is a "food concession" lady, not an audio person.
I was not there, so have no idea about the actual soundcheck, just relaying what was overheard.
It sounded to me like they barely had time to get things set up. Is it not totally possible that if they had a normal day they would have had time to address issues such as maybe tying into the house rig and resolving some of these issues they had?
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It sounded to me like they barely had time to get things set up. Is it not totally possible that if they had a normal day they would have had time to address issues such as maybe tying into the house rig and resolving some of these issues they had?
They did not plan on tying into the house rig that day.
The "original" plan, back in the summer, was that the portable system would cover the floor and lower seating areas (100 level), and the house system would cover the 200 and 300 levels. The house system is zoned so that various parts can be turned off as needed for smaller events, without having to reaim the loudspeakers.
We were informed a couple of days before the show that the house system was not going to be used, and they were going to fly delays. Which is what happened.
We had sent coverage maps of what the coverage would be with the lower level speakers turned off (months before the show), so they had an idea of what would need to be covered.
They (whoever that is-I don't know specifically) decided not to use the house system.
The plan (by the production company) for the next show is to tie into the house system.
Here is a little video that was taken last week, with an empty house, full system on, at a good healthy level, in the "cheap seats"-where most of the complaints came from. Although there were a number of complaints from the floor seats-that were in the direct coverage of the portable system.
It is just a phone video.
Compare this to some of the videos taken at the "concert in question".
https://www.facebook.com/wildwoodluthier/videos/10155092362768601/
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They did not plan on tying into the house rig that day.
The "original" plan, back in the summer, was that the portable system would cover the floor and lower seating areas (100 level), and the house system would cover the 200 and 300 levels. The house system is zoned so that various parts can be turned off as needed for smaller events, without having to reaim the loudspeakers.
We were informed a couple of days before the show that the house system was not going to be used, and they were going to fly delays. Which is what happened.
We had sent coverage maps of what the coverage would be with the lower level speakers turned off (months before the show), so they had an idea of what would need to be covered.
They (whoever that is-I don't know specifically) decided not to use the house system.
The plan (by the production company) for the next show is to tie into the house system.
Here is a little video that was taken last week, with an empty house, full system on, at a good healthy level, in the "cheap seats"-where most of the complaints came from. Although there were a number of complaints from the floor seats-that were in the direct coverage of the portable system.
It is just a phone video.
Compare this to some of the videos taken at the "concert in question".
https://www.facebook.com/wildwoodluthier/videos/10155092362768601/
gotcha. thanks for the info. i am just going off of the convo i had while pushing stuff around on load out. he said there were too many problems to list with the whole event. no clue what that entails. live and learn right? i have worked opening day a couple smaller places here and there in my life. there are always surprises :)