Bradford "BJ" James wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 17:52 |
You're f....n' kidding me. |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 12:06 |
And this is surprising to whom? All markets are like pyramids... the view is better from the top, but the mass is in the base... JR |
Mike Smith wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 12:24 |
I'm going to pre-order my UltraVenice. |
Bradford "BJ" James wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 11:34 | ||
Make mine an UltraVenicePro. |
Mike Smith wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 12:24 |
I'm going to pre-order my UltraVenice. |
Arthur Skudra wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 11:09 |
From the article: "Robert Mulatz, senior VP of Bosch Communications Systems, admits that the brands did not really fit comfortably within the Bosch portfolio: "Midas and Klark Teknik have always epitomised the highest possible performance and reliability in the mixing console and signal processing markets. Within the professional audio business of Bosch this niche market has not been defined as a core business area due to its size and specific requirements. We believe that in the Music Group we have found both the passion and the financial ability needed to grow Midas and Klark Teknik. Among all potential buyers that have been screened, we have selected the Music Group as the best fit."" So if mixing consoles and signal processing are not a good fit within the Bosch portfolio, then what's next on the cutting block? And one has to wonder, what the screening process was? |
Shane Presley wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 06:08 |
Well I guess the BEH***** word morphing will have to include KLA***** and MIDA* from now on.. lol The best and worst collide |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 12:06 |
And this is surprising to whom? All markets are like pyramids... the view is better from the top, but the mass is in the base... |
Bradford "BJ" James wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 12:34 | ||
Make mine an UltraVenicePro. |
Jon Martin wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 10:50 |
As much as we like demonize Uli, he is a very sharp guy and also a musician himself. (gasp! did he just say that??) Find me some Behringer compressors that say "Made in Germany" on the back and I'd put them side by side with the higher end competition's compressors. Audio wise you'd be hard pressed to dismiss them as "crap". |
Brad Weber wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 12:55 | ||
True, but with an up to now very different market focus and distribution model it is an odd pairing. I don't see many people impulse buying current Midas or KT models because they are part of a "Midas and KT Blow Out" sale at the local store. |
Mike Smith wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 18:24 |
I'm going to pre-order my UltraVenice. |
Tim McCulloch wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 11:15 |
Hi Jon- I don't buy the "nothing's gonna change." It has to, that's the nature of commerce and capitalism. Presumably Midas/KT wasn't sufficiently profitable to justify it's place on the Bosch roster and for them to be profitable on the Music Group line card will probably require changes in design, manufacturing, distribution and marketing. In other words, pretty much aspect of Midas/KT will be up for evaluation and changes that result in greater profitability for the new owners. What Music Group also attains is Brand Respectability. The open question is what manner and type of change will take place, and when. I suppose the best thing that can be said of this is "at least the buyer wasn't Sun Capital/LOUD. Have fun, good luck. Tim Mc |
Lee Brenkman wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 13:20 | ||
FWIW - Fiat has owned Ferrari since 1993. They have been happy to own a prestige car company with a great engineering heritage and have kept their noses out for the most part. I wish I was as optimistic about them running what's left of Chrysler though :-0. |
Music Group CEO Michael Deeb said: |
“MIDAS and KLARK TEKNIK are at the very pinnacle of their market segment. They address a very unique client base and have a different sales channel from our current core business. The brands will continue to operate autonomously under the leadership of John Oakley while benefiting from the synergies of our combined efforts. All brands will take advantage of the MUSIC Group’s extensive resources and industry-leading competencies including product development, lifecycle management, supply chain and logistics. |
Alex Cooper, MIDAS Director of Console Engineering said: |
“For over twenty years I have devoted my life to designing the finest quality audio products possible. It has always been our goal to achieve the very best performance while continuing to broaden our market presence and expand our customer base. I am convinced that working with the MUSIC Group will provide us with advantages that will help us maintain our high standards and grow the business for the long term.” |
Lee Brenkman wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 13:20 | ||
FWIW - Fiat has owned Ferrari since 1993. They have been happy to own a prestige car company with a great engineering heritage and have kept their noses out for the most part. I wish I was as optimistic about them running what's left of Chrysler though :-0. |
Tim McCulloch wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 11:44 |
Fiat and Chrysler... oh man, don't get me started (because the Fiat won't...) The devil is in the details, but I *do* see a line of mixers and outboard that claim a Midas or KT ancestry. This purchase is about acquiring intellectual property as well as purchasing a running (and presumed profitable, cash-flow-positive) business that doesn't fit the current owner's plans. It is what it is; we'll have to wait and see what it becomes. Have fun, good luck. Tim Mc |
Jon Martin wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 10:50 |
Nothing is going to change. Midas will still be "Midas" as we know it |
Quote: |
all of the U.K. folks are still in charge of Midas, David Cooper will still be the brains of Midas (he built the XL4/XL8/PRO6) and they will continue to build products worthy of the Midas name. (no Legend cracks..OK?) |
Ken Freeman wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 13:17 |
I am all good until I have to go to GC to get parts for a $70,000.00 mixer. |
Mike Smith wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 16:27 |
PS Maybe Wal Mart will start selling Behringer products? |
Mike Smith wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 15:27 |
After thirty years of challenges and arguable "success" in pro audio, I remain connected to the trade because I love it: the art, the technology, and the tests of my skills and ability to deliver. I buy yogurt at Wal Mart because it is a good-tasting product priced far lower than the competition's. I don't buy Behringer gear although I understand why people do. Both corporations are admired for their ability to cover a market and be profitable. Both are despised for ruthlessness and an apparent lack of humanity/decency/ethics/whatever. I think a forum like this one reminds us how much we are influenced by our passions and our personal opinions. Yay for choices. PS Maybe Wal Mart will start selling Behringer products? |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 14:22 |
I have a little bit different perspective on this topic than most, and I see a huge difference between Walmart and Behringer. The interesting question Walmart begs is what is wrong about being so good at what they do? They have eliminated unneeded cost from the entire supply chain while delivering merchantable commodity products to end users. They are so good at it average competitors don't have a chance. No doubt their size gives them remarkable power, but I don't see them abusing it (yet). Some may remember the old Montgomery Ward, and how they would build up then squeeze their vendors on price to the point they put many of them out of business. Perhaps Walmart is just smart enough to not kill their vendors. I for one would like to see Walmart's take on healthcare delivery... not so much Behringer's, while I can already guess Behringer's approach for reducing patent drug expenses. |
Craig Leerman wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 12:24 | ||
For how long? Is Crest still the old pre Peavey Crest? |
Brian Bolly wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 09:50 | ||
Apparently you already can. |
Craig Leerman wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 18:15 |
Yes, Wally World DOES squeeze their vendors, not only on price, but delivery. |
Rick Stansby wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 00:36 | ||||
I'm sure Uli is designing Midas logos for that mixer as we speak. Why keep the Midas Factory open, when you can just throw a midas logo on a Behringer mixer. The credibility of the Midas name will suffer severely, but not before Uli makes millions of dollars selling thousands of the new, reduced-price "Midas" Venice. Just wait until you see how much smaller the XL8 is when it is built on the chassis of a DDX3216 |
Jonathan 'JP' Peirce wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 00:53 |
....Chinese bashing.... , IMO we Americans, (and people from other 'western' nations) better wake up soon... |
Bruce Pritchard wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 11:45 |
I fully expected to click the link and be directed to The Onion... |
Bob Leonard wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 21:01 |
Hello world, Uli speaking..... Regardless, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I had narrowed my next small format mixer choices to Midas and a Yamaha LS9-16. So thank you Uli, you've made the choice for me and look forward to entering the digital world with a brand new spanking clean LS9. Let's not be silly here. The fact is that Uli and his crew could leave Midas and KT alone, modernize the plants, and keep the team intact. But facts speak much louder than words. The components will be cheapened, the assembly will be Chinese, and as has been said, Midas and KT will suffer from the Behringer stigma as do all of Uli's products German made or not. I have worked side by side both Chinese mainland and Taiwanese workers, Vietnamese workers, and Japanese workers. By far the hardest working most quality conscious people I have EVER worked with have been the Japanese. And by far, the worst and most careless manufacturing methods I have ever observed have been in mainland China or Taiwan. Slam it out as cheaply as possible, thank you GI. I am sure that as the Chinese become more and more westernized the quality of workmanship and materials will improve to a point where there is no question regarding quality and durability. However, I'll be taking a dirt nap by then, and Midas and KT will be another GC special item, if they exist at all. |
trace knight wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 21:47 |
Hammer, cookies and now baskets, what else are you hiding? tk |
Kristian Johnsen wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 07:22 |
Bob. All nations will have citizens with good qualities and bad. Judging a nation of over 1.300.000.000 (that's 1,300,000,000 to you) based on the few you have worked with doesn't speak greatly of you or the nation YOU represent (have you thought about that?). I try to buy products based on the merits of the products, not the people who make them. The only exception is if the products are known to be made by slaves/children (some lines of clothes, for instance) or if they clearly are copies (like 3 USD "Oakley" glasses in tourist shops). If you were really thorough about this ideology you'd keep track of exactly who runs the main offices of the companies who make any one of the zillion products most of have in our homes, throw away your things one by one as you find that their workers don't "meet the expectations of your ideology" and buy a new product, until that company sells enough stock to be owned by someone else that you don't like. If you can afford it, it'd probably keep your home looking real nice and new, but of course, you'd produce a lot of waste and keep the cycle going, and thereby helping the factories you don't like stay in business, too. |
Kristian Johnsen wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 06:22 |
Bob. All nations will have citizens with good qualities and bad. Judging a nation of over 1.300.000.000 (that's 1,300,000,000 to you) based on the few you have worked with doesn't speak greatly of you or the nation YOU represent (have you thought about that?). I try to buy products based on the merits of the products, not the people who make them. The only exception is if the products are known to be made by slaves/children (some lines of clothes, for instance) or if they clearly are copies (like 3 USD "Oakley" glasses in tourist shops). If you were really thorough about this ideology you'd keep track of exactly who runs the main offices of the companies who make any one of the zillion products most of have in our homes, throw away your things one by one as you find that their workers don't "meet the expectations of your ideology" and buy a new product, until that company sells enough stock to be owned by someone else that you don't like. If you can afford it, it'd probably keep your home looking real nice and new, but of course, you'd produce a lot of waste and keep the cycle going, and thereby helping the factories you don't like stay in business, too. |
Dave Stevens wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 00:07 |
When I first saw that this morning I was hoping that the winery had taken an interest in pro audio. Guess not... Midas had some of the same issues that brought down Cadac and forced the sale. (no, not that they were both Brits... ) They were slow to move to digital and like Cadac held their own analog products in high regard even when the market was clearly moving to digital they missed the curve by dissing digital when it was clear that larger analog consoles were in a rapidly diminishing position in the market. It didn't happen overnight. Doyler and Webby left almost 10 years ago for Digico. You can be certain that if Midas were selling PM5D or M7 numbers (or even D5 D1 or SD numbers)Bosch would never have kicked them loose. Instead they chose to enter that market with and ultra expensive product that was in some ways less capable than lower priced offerings and took far too long to get into the middle part of the market. Frankly I'm surprised they didn't cut them loose sooner. So things may stay the same, at least for now. AFAIK Music Group has no marquee pro audio brands. I might be a good thing but it may also be a bad thing. While Sun may have saved the Loud brands, it did so at the cost of a marquee pro audio brand. Uli Behringer has a lot more audio manufacturing experience than any of those empty suits from Sun that control Loud right now. At least the Smaart product was able to be saved by people that know the product and more importantly, know how to market it. Time will tell if this is a good move long term. But like anything else perception is reality and the perception is that Behringer makes low end crap. Rightfully or wrongly so, perception is reality and the real work for Music Group isn't making good product, it's convincing the users they have to ability to do more than just knock off crap sold in music stores. Good luck. They're going to need it... |
Brian Bolly wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 10:50 | ||
Apparently you already can. |
Tom Reid wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 07:58 |
Out of 4 pages of rants and counter rants, not one person has indicated that this deal has fubarred thier purchase of Midas/KT this year or next. Add a poll to see how many Labsters are now deciding to buy something else, or had major purchases planned in the next 3 yers that they have to 'rethink'. |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 10:05 | ||
As the resident apologist for things contrary, I have defended China more than attacked them, but there is often some truth in stereotypes. That said, it is sloppy production management to rely upon factory workers or line supervisors to arbitrate fit and finish decisions. They are unlikely to have a clue about customer expectations. I ran into similar issues in US factories, trying to run very high finish quality recording studio products down production lines shared by "hide in a dark closet" install products. It can be confusing for line workers to hear that a minor cosmetic flaw acceptable on one product is not acceptable on another. The solution is to completely document the process and define what is acceptable ahead of the questions, so distant line workers or supervisors never have to make that call. The day of craftsman factory line workers, who have the experience to make final calls on such things are gone for any remotely mass market product. No matter where it's built. I submit that any product, can be built anywhere, to any level of quality, with proper process controls and management. Doing so profitably is another matter, and right now China is in the fat part of the curve, but all to soon, they will be replaced by Africa, or who knows. It will be interesting in a hundred years or so, when we run out of developing countries, to attract marginal manufacturing, and it comes home to roost. By then "stuff" will probably be built by robots, so maybe a good field of study for young kids is robotics. Until the robots start building robots. JR |
Noah Waldron wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 16:51 | ||
Have you guys taken a look at this Behringer Console? Its layout and everything is the same as a Midas Venice! Pretty Funny....... |
Charlotte Evans wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 12:51 |
Jesus, some of the comments on here.......a good analogy would be like the french fries/freedom fries issue a few years back |
Tom Reid wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 07:58 |
Out of 4 pages of rants and counter rants, not one person has indicated that this deal has fubarred thier purchase of Midas/KT this year or next. Add a poll to see how many Labsters are now deciding to buy something else, or had major purchases planned in the next 3 yers that they have to 'rethink'. |
Gus Housen wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 13:10 |
+1 I was suprised when Peavey launched their line Array they didnt use the Crest Branding, Seems like It would have had better market street cred. |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 22:32 | ||
I didn't know that crest had any reputation in the speaker business? I did a nice 2 way plastic box for a crest speaker model using Charlie's quadratic horn. It was actually a sweet box but as usual was underestimated by customers because of the dubious heritage. EDIT_ FWIW we were also kicking the tires on at least one speaker company (I think more than one) that were on the block around that same time... but didn't buy one. That would have been the better candidate to front higher end speakers. /edit ---- I tried desperately to get the crest marketing guys to embrace the peavey Mentor, the DSP based feedback locater, that wasn't working in PV distribution because PV customers would just buy a graphic EQ with the FLS build in for a few bux more.. IMO this product could have done OK in the Crest distribution where customers liked their non-PV eqs. But I couldn't get the marketing types to drink the kool-aid (what could I possibly know about Crest customers?), and I couldn't make them so I ended up obsoleting the Mentor despite a hardcore base of users. Wouldn't be the first or last time people ignored my advice. It is difficult for such marriages to share a common vision, below the highest levels, if they even exist there. JR |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 21:32 | ||
I didn't know that crest had any reputation in the speaker business? JR |
Dave Stevens wrote on Thu, 10 December 2009 09:20 |
As I said in the previous post, perception is reality and the reality is that they have a great deal of brand finessing to do make those that might buy one of these high end units comfortable. Dave |
Brandon Blakeney wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 18:44 |
However the QW and Versarray lines sound as good or better than alot of high end EAW and JBL stuff I've heard recently. |
Brandon Blakeney wrote on Thu, 10 December 2009 06:12 |
I didn't mean QW competes with huge line arrays. However, it holds its own with its SRX/KF counterparts. |
Brandon Blakeney wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 20:44 |
You are absolutely right Peavey is the MOST underrated brand! I used to hate peavey because I worked with some of their "value-based" products in highschool and was not impressed. However the QW and Versarray lines sound as good or better than alot of high end EAW and JBL stuff I've heard recently. I will admit Behringer is not the most reliable especially their most recent lines. However, a small sound company like mine would benefit from a 40x8 Midas in the $6-8K range. |
Moby (Mike Diack) wrote on Thu, 10 December 2009 04:25 | ||
Amazingly, It worked for Skoda. (some brilliant advertising and real engineering / QC improvements were involved) M |
Brandon Blakeney wrote on Thu, 10 December 2009 01:12 |
I didn't mean QW competes with huge line arrays. However, it holds its own with its SRX/KF counterparts. |
Bob Leonard wrote on Wed, 09 December 2009 14:57 | ||
Kristian, I think you're out of line here. My statements concern workmanship and quality, and having lived, worked and fought in those countries for a period of almost 6 years, and recently traveling to Tiawan, I beleive I have a slight insight into the mentality behind Asian production processes and craftsmanship, old and new. I have to leave for the day job now, and it's snowing and cold here so I'll put on the Columbia coat I bought 3 days ago. The one with the label that say's "Made in Vietnam". |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Thu, 10 December 2009 12:46 |
Not to speak ill of my old alma mater, there are several factors that separate the wheat from the chaff in more professional applications. This has little or nothing to do with design engineering chops. As I have argued before it's harder to design a successful volkswagen than ferrari... but there are features that cost real money that broader market dealers/customers aren't willing to pay for. I recall from one past run at a serious higher end loudspeaker box, that the drivers have to be very tightly specified to match each other (a lot more expensive), so the voicing wouldn't vary at all from box to box. This is very important when arraying multiple cabinets, and not much of an issue in single box applications. I have seen serious (PV) dealers who wanted to sell to the more professional customers, but refused to accept that these "more professional" boxes could possibly cost as much as they needed to, even from Peavey with their value oriented profit margins.. The customer never gets to hear what Peavey could do if the dealers don't believe in and support the more professional product effort. Perhaps under a higher end brand the real world cost wouldn't result in the same knee jerk resistance. This is just one of several such considerations, but I can't think of many examples where low and and high end products coexist within a single brand. JR PS: IMO it is possible to alter a brands image (think Sony). There are new customers being born every day, so it just takes time and effort. What is not possible is to hold both the high ground and low ground at the same time. Nobody wants to give up the low ground, because in this case, that is where the money is, so attempts to take the high ground "too", are ultimately doomed to failure . |
Paul Bell wrote on Thu, 10 December 2009 19:21 |
Surely you all realize that Uli Behringer is lurking here and keeping tabs on reactions/comments/thoughts. It's already been said by several that he is a sharp businessman. |
Bob Leonard wrote on Thu, 10 December 2009 17:21 |
John, I think there are a number of companies who have been able to embrace both the high end market and the low end market successfully. However, the ability to do so has historically been because the company has, in most cases, started as a manufacturer of quality and well made goods. In the early 70's, well before the Japanese stereo invasion many of us stationed in Japan were well aware of the quality products available to the Japanese, but not yet available outside of the country. Most of us returned with Yamaha, Sansui, JVC and Akai components that were the rival of almost anything made in the US then, and in some cases even now. I even purchased a guitar amplifier with speaker in it shaped like the human ear. I sold that amplifier, and have never seen one like it since. These products were a far cry from the cheap tin toys any of us had as a child. The toys and goods rejected by the US as far inferior to our own. The Japanese learned quickly. In the case of Japanese products we are all aware of their capabilities and attention to detail. We also know that Japanese products generally have a price tag equal to products of similar design and craftsmanship manufactured here, in England, and in other European counties. The one key fact I recall is that unlike today, poorly made products were rejected by the public almost regardless of price. However, today cheaply made products abound and are accepted by the masses, a fact of life in a world where disposable income (until recently) was readily available, and in a world where standards are not held as high as they were in the past. All to often you hear the words "Good enough for now, if it fails I'll buy another, they're cheap enough.". Good enough to many companies is money in the bank and a return customer a second thought. Uli has built his reputation. Yes, there were products manufactured in Germany that are in many cases acceptable for use, but to me that is the equal of saying a $100 Gibson knock off from China is "good enough for use". For what? Fire wood? Or how about any of the products such as line arrays, amplifiers, cables, mixers, microphones, etc.? Are they "good enough for use"? Maybe, but by who and for what? It's more than perception at this point it's procedural fact. Fact, poor component handling, lower rated components and sloppy assembly lead to premature failures, something most if not all of us want nothing to do with. I have not spent the past 58 years under a bed, so in light of that I will concede that there are many well made and quality products produced in China, Taiwan and now Vietnam. But, I will not turn a blind eye and except the majority of those goods as equal to the goods manufactured in the US, England and Europe. The fact remains that a few tall building don't make for an industrialized nation and proving that point might be a simple as pointing to dog food, baby's milk or toy's. I will certainly be willing to purchase goods from any manufacturer who has proved to me in the past they are capable of producing quality goods. Midas and KT have made these points through out the history of their being. However, Behringer has proved the opposite. I hope I am wrong here, but I doubt that Uli will will do anything less than pull the manufacture of these products overseas eventually denigrating the quality and reputation of these two proud firms to that of slightly better than that of the Behringer of today. Yes the Vienamese Columbia jacket keeps me warm. But having paid $127 for it I expected nothing less. |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Fri, 11 December 2009 03:58 | ||
Name a few brands that can simultaneously occupy high and low end markets. if they come to mind so easily... I am still having trouble coming up with one... JR |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Thu, 10 December 2009 20:58 |
Name a few brands that can simultaneously occupy high and low end markets. if they come to mind so easily... I am still having trouble coming up with one... JR |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Thu, 10 December 2009 22:58 |
Name a few brands that can simultaneously occupy high and low end markets. if they come to mind so easily... I am still having trouble coming up with one... JR |
Andrew Broughton wrote on Fri, 11 December 2009 09:05 | ||
Sony, Sennheiser, Soundcraft (sort of), Midas, IBM, Cisco, Motorola, just off the top of my head - I'm sure there's lots more. Unless of course I've misunderstood your meaning. |
Winston Gamble wrote on Thu, 10 December 2009 22:11 |
How about Yamaha? Maybe not quite the highest, but pretty close. Winston |
Andrew Broughton wrote on Fri, 11 December 2009 02:05 |
Sony, Sennheiser, Soundcraft (sort of), Midas, IBM, Cisco, Motorola, just off the top of my head - I'm sure there's lots more. Unless of course I've misunderstood your meaning. |
Kristian Johnsen wrote on Fri, 11 December 2009 02:47 |
Most cell phone companies, many airlines and some car manufacturers would be on my list. Again, if I understood the meaning correctly, also. |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Fri, 11 December 2009 06:56 |
All of those brands strike me as neither very low end or very high end.. |
Andrew Broughton wrote on Sat, 12 December 2009 08:53 | ||
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Andrew Broughton wrote on Fri, 11 December 2009 12:53 | ||
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Andrew Broughton wrote on Fri, 11 December 2009 13:53 | ||
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Bob Leonard wrote on Fri, 11 December 2009 14:44 |
John, My reference to selling to both high end and low end customers was not specific to a product line but more relevent to a corporation overall. Leveraging a name known for quality is easy. If I were to use Cisco a brand I am intimately familiar with, then I would ask you to note it is not uncommen for me to work with quarter million dollar router in the morning, and a sub $50 router in the afternoon, all at the same company. If I ask the customer why they bought the $50 router they will invariably tell me they bought the router because it filled the need and because it was a Cisco. |
Quote: |
Now based on perception, right or wrong, if I were to own an array from any known and respected manufacturer, Meyer, JBL, etc., then I would also be willing to buy their $50 speakers for my TV or Ipod. Why? Because I would feel that I was purchasing a low cost but quality low cost product based on the manufacturers reputation. That by the way, is why I bought a Columbia jacket even though the tag said "Made in Vietnam." |
Quote: |
Behringer has never enjoyed the benefit of producing a first class quality piece of hardware that most if not all of us "Just had to have." They have catered to the low dollar masses, made their niche, and are happy with their volume sales. I believe that Uli's touch will and already has tainted the names of two respected manufacturers. I also think the unless Uli changes his approach to sales, then these manufacturers will suffer the same reputation as Behringer now. |
Quote: |
Perhaps if Uli isolates KT and Midas from the Behringer name by creating a professional group, using higher end components, better service, support and better guarantees he may overcome this obstacle. He's done this with his Bugera line of guitar amps, and just not seeing the name Behringer seems to help, but he has a long row to hoe, and I doubt he'll ever finish. Look for Midas and KT lines to start appearing at your local Guitar Center in mass soon. |
Art Welter wrote on Fri, 11 December 2009 12:37 |
[ The top mixer cost 5780 times more than the bottom one! |
Robin Parker wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 00:34 |
1000 pardons.... |
Robin Parker wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 10:00 |
My point exactly! I do so enjoy listening to the rants of those that proclaim “golden hearing” – “this is crap – this is great” – sort of like watching a tennis match, sitting near the net. Recently I read an article regarding (guitar) amp modelers vs. the real thing (cabinet/mic). Six (+/-) “experts” were asked to identify the real thing from the modeled version…. (Sorry for not remembering all of the details, I didn’t know there was going to be a test) in a blind comparison listening test. Long story short, they were wrong in their assessments approximately 65% of the time…. Did you see the Penn & Teller (BS) episode about bottled water? Same thing. I’d love to line up every person in professional audio and conduct the same sort of test – there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there would be a mass percentage leaving the table with their tails tucked between their legs. There are a bazillion things we could compare… Shure vs. Audix – Crown vs. QSC – BBS vs. DBX… you could go on for days….hell, centuries. You’re either a Chevy or a Ford person - the reasons are unknown and never will be - and that’s ok…. The Behringer/Midas issue is simply the beginning of another chapter – and more fodder to rant about! |
Charlie Zureki wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 05:47 |
Not laughing at you Robin... just, that Mr. Cameron's "reminder" was a bit late in this thread. |
gerald winkler wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 12:50 |
...seems to be, as a lot of owners of midas consoles are to be found here... as far as i know is the so beloved Venice not made bei midas, but (at least) assembled by dynacord! u. behringer is apparentely so successfull in his productionlines - I can not imagine, that he will "sacrify" that brand for using it for his silvereared devices. |
Lee Brenkman wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 15:46 | ||
I might question the "beloved" description of the Venice. It's peculiarities of channel count and aux send layout have been well discussed in here. As has it's Dynacord manufacture. Now that Midas is no longer part of Bosch but EV/Dynacord, as far as I know, still is that connection may be severed and the future Venice level consoles will be made in China instead of by Dynacord. Here in the US Mercedes Sprinter Vans have been sold by the Dodge Division of Chrysler. Now that Fiat controls Chrysler they will soon be badged differently and sold through other channels. |
Dick Rees wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 13:48 |
[ |
Lee Brenkman wrote on Tue, 15 December 2009 15:46 |
Now that Midas is no longer part of Bosch but EV/Dynacord, as far as I know, still is that connection may be severed and the future Venice level consoles will be made in China instead of by Dynacord. |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Thu, 10 December 2009 21:58 | ||
Name a few brands that can simultaneously occupy high and low end markets. if they come to mind so easily... I am still having trouble coming up with one... JR |
Ian Hunt wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 08:56 |
Mercedes Benz (from the smart to the maybach) Edit: because I can Ian |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 07:56 | ||
I've never seen one so I had to google it, and it appears they are trying to sell them here. A couple $k more than rice burner entry level, for a car that looks like it would be blown off the road by a passing vehicle or strong gust of wind. Probably OK for driving to the train station or local market. I wonder how these do on the autobahn? -snip- |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 09:56 | ||
Well that's 15 minutes I'll never get back... I've never seen one so I had to google it, and it appears they are trying to sell them here. A couple $k more than rice burner entry level, for a car that looks like it would be blown off the road by a passing vehicle or strong gust of wind. Probably OK for driving to the train station or local market. I wonder how these do on the autobahn? I won't debate other peoples perceptions of brands. My thesis is success in the low end, erodes high end panache, and is probably harder to do. Didn't Mercedes already cut and run from one attempt at the larger mid-low end with Chrysler? I guess that failure was Chryslers fault? I recall past efforts from Mercedes for cute smaller cars, but they always struck me as cars for rich people to buy their college kids (or mistress), not cars for kids to buy themselves. This looks like a run at that market so good luck. JR |
Caleb Dick wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 10:41 | ||||
I've seen a few of those 'pregnant roller skate' Smart cars around. In addition to passing breezes, I bet a couple solid linebackers could scare it. I would agree that there are very few, if any, brands that can cover the very-cheap and very-high end well. Basic business - you can't be all things to all people, all better than the competition, and profitable at the same time. For the Mercedes example - I would argue they are essentially independent brands under a common umbrella. If the same engineers designed everything from Smart to Maybach, then yes one company has the breadth required. Just like I will assume Behringer will use different engineers for their Behringer branded gear vs Midas - not ignoring some cross-pollination. Caleb |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 09:56 | ||
Well that's 15 minutes I'll never get back... I've never seen one so I had to google it, and it appears they are trying to sell them here. A couple $k more than rice burner entry level, for a car that looks like it would be blown off the road by a passing vehicle or strong gust of wind. Probably OK for driving to the train station or local market. I wonder how these do on the autobahn? I won't debate other peoples perceptions of brands. My thesis is success in the low end, erodes high end panache, and is probably harder to do. Didn't Mercedes already cut and run from one attempt at the larger mid-low end with Chrysler? I guess that failure was Chryslers fault? I recall past efforts from Mercedes for cute smaller cars, but they always struck me as cars for rich people to buy their college kids (or mistress), not cars for kids to buy themselves. This looks like a run at that market so good luck. JR |
Ian Hunt wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 10:43 |
You probably have seen the maybach, looks exactly like every other nondescript large car, but big enough to sling a couple of smarts off the side, like lifeboats. Ian |
Ian Hunt wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 10:49 |
The Maybach is merely (merely!) one of the big S class Mercedes with a new frock and extra toys, so that counts, the Smart is an inhouse design also (the A class first showed some smart technology a few years prior). Germany has very tough safety laws and the Smart complies fully, but I wouldn't want to get in an accident in one, I wouldn't want to get in an accident in a Suburban either. Ian |
Ian Hunt wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 10:59 |
Apologies if you don't like the answer but I thought the question was show me a company selling product in the lo, mid & hi end of their market. Mercedes meet that definition with the cars mentioned, all of which are successful in many Mercedes markets, the Smart has only recently come on sale here, time will tell if there is sufficient volume for the USA to stand amongst the successful Smart markets. The Maybach costs a fortune and by the standards of the over 400K class sells well enough. Then there is the Mercedes Benz line, I think they have been successful in the 121 years they've been making cars. Ian |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 12:52 | ||
Again, I won't argue about your perception, and will try not to weasel the definition of my thesis too much. Mercedes is no doubt successful (if we ignore Chrysler), but in my mind are still an upper to upper-mid positioned car brand. Many companies have tried to be all things to all people and some in head scratching ways. I recall one series of advertisements from Ford, including all of their sundry car badges in one ad, (several sold or retired now). My response was WTF are they trying to accomplish? IMO such an ad will impress maybe 10% of the audience, and confuse or diminish the image of the other brands positioned above the Ford badge, which is all of the other brands. Kind of like shooting yourself in your wallet. Sorry if I hijacked this away from an Uli bashing rant... but I have been a student of brand management ever since it was a day job (among others), and I think the brands involved are what he bought to exploit, because they aren't Behringer and locked into that Behringer place in the consumer's perception. It would be far cheaper and easier to just copy the successful KT and Midas SKUs, if he could do that and succeed in their market niche. JR |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 16:56 | ||
Probably OK for driving to the train station or local market. I wonder how these do on the autobahn? JR |
Bob Lee (QSC) wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 23:25 |
Smart is co-owned by MB, but it doesn't bear the Mercedes Benz name, roundel, et al. |
Ian Hunt wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 15:56 | ||||
Mercedes Benz (from the smart to the maybach) Edit: because I can Ian |
Kristian Johnsen wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 18:07 |
You'd probably be surprised to hear that they do very, very well in crash tests against stationary objects. Their low mass gives them less energy to crumple the "cage" surrounding the passengers as well as making it easier for the vehicle to be deflected to one side or the other upon impact. Against other vehicles? It depends, the low mass is working against you in a head-on, but then again - unless you're driving a big-rig there is always someone bigger around. The big SUVs that some of us are so enamoured with are a lot less safe than might be expected, particularly due to their tendency to roll over. |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 01:45 | ||
Why would I be surprised about the crash cage,,, I said i googled these and mercedes is well know for their engineering. One minor point about selling cars or brand, it is all about perception... So these could be as safe as that futuristic car Stallone crashed in "Demolition Man". Betty house wife is just going to feel safer in her SUV (AKA a pickup truck with a car body). No matter what the reality is. My Autobahn question was really about high speed stability and such. It doesn't look very aerodynamic, and some of the reviews complained about side winds affecting them. I don't think i'd want to be in one getting passed at speed, by a huge truck, in the rain at night. But I am speculating, it may be fine. I recall driving my M151A1 (Army jeep) on the Autobahn back in 1970 and even though I wound the speedometer all the way around to zero again, i had people flashing their high beams and cursing me, when I tried to pass slower trucks at merely 85-90 MPH. JR |
Kristian Johnsen wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 18:09 | ||||||
Both MB and Toyota (amongst others) give their top models another brand name, which kinda proves JR's point in my opinion. What's so cool about MB is that they make trucks, agricultural vehicles and military vehicles, as well. |
Caleb Dick wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 10:41 |
I've seen a few of those 'pregnant roller skate' Smart cars around. In addition to passing breezes, I bet a couple solid linebackers could scare it. Caleb |
Kristian Johnsen wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 19:21 |
Your autobahn comment seemed to be safety-oriented, hence the presumed surprise. Having a German-born mother who learned to drive in Germany in her youth I have heard quite few stories about how aggressive the autobahn motorists used to be until the Police did some heavy cleaning up regarding bad attitudes. In general the Autobahn isn't as fast as they are rumored to be. Many places have restrictions in general, others have restrictions under certain conditions (like rain) and others are just congested. Trucks are always restricted to the right hand lane (and I believe 100 km/h). This includes all vehicles over 3500Kg, not just big-rigs. |
Ian Hunt wrote on Mon, 21 December 2009 19:25 |
While that is true not one of them go to any lengths to disguise the parent brand, indeed in most of the world there is no Acura or Infiniti, just expensive Honda and Nissan vehicles, is a Honda NSX any less capable because of it's badge? |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 09:56 |
The CS800 is hard to kill (but not impossible), by design. And FWIW some people dislike both olives and anchovies. JR |
Robin Parker wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 11:00 |
My point exactly! I do so enjoy listening to the rants of those that proclaim “golden hearing” – “this is crap – this is great” – sort of like watching a tennis match, sitting near the net. Recently I read an article regarding (guitar) amp modelers vs. the real thing (cabinet/mic). Six (+/-) “experts” were asked to identify the real thing from the modeled version…. (Sorry for not remembering all of the details, I didn’t know there was going to be a test) in a blind comparison listening test. Long story short, they were wrong in their assessments approximately 65% of the time…. |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 13:25 | ||
I've heard of the Maybach(?) on that effete BBC car show. I'd heard of the Smart also, in passing, but not as a serious commercial venture. I stand informed that the Smart is a serious attempt, but I fear it is a zero sum game, as success there will come out of their other pockets. or not... JR |
Ian Hunt wrote on Sat, 19 December 2009 13:57 | ||||
I agree, Mercedes brand perception is upper to middle class, I think they are hoping that the cachet will trickle down and make the Smart more desirable. I looked up the sales figures, since it went on sale in the US (mar 08) 38,553 have been sold, no idea what MB need to make it work though. Ian |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 03:18 | ||
Bad attitude? opinions vary.. I like velocity within reason. A good car, on a good road sounds very appealing. Driving a fast car slow, is using the wrong tool for the job, and makes nobody very happy. JR |
Jon Martin wrote on Tue, 08 December 2009 13:50 |
As much as we like demonize Uli, he is a very sharp guy and also a musician himself. (gasp! did he just say that??) Find me some Behringer compressors that say "Made in Germany" on the back and I'd put them side by side with the higher end competition's compressors. Audio wise you'd be hard pressed to dismiss them as "crap". |
Andy Peters wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 10:57 |
I think everyone is missing the point of the Smart car. It is not intended to be a highway machine. It is designed for use in crowded cities where maneuverability and the ability to park in tiny spaces are more important than 0 to 60 time or highway MPG. Of course, it's really not much smaller than a Miata or an S2000, and has similar trunk space, so I really don't see the point. -a |
Andy Peters wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 11:57 |
I think everyone is missing the point of the Smart car. It is not intended to be a highway machine. It is designed for use in crowded cities where maneuverability and the ability to park in tiny spaces are more important than 0 to 60 time or highway MPG. Of course, it's really not much smaller than a Miata or an S2000, and has similar trunk space, so I really don't see the point. -a |
Bob Lee (QSC) wrote on Tue, 22 December 2009 17:50 |
I've seen them quite often on the Autobahn. They'll do about 145 kph or so. |