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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Kevin Rudolph on February 12, 2020, 03:52:05 PM
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Gentleman,
I received a random call from a coworker today asking a question I didn't really know how to answer. I typically work in event production - not installation, and at that, most of the venues we work in have 16' ceilings at max. Mostly we ground support everything. On occasion we use chain motors, but when needed we use qualified riggers to do that work.
The question was "How much budget should I allot for the rigging of a 7 box array"? 26' from the ground - 3 clusters of 7. This is new construction, so I was assured there were certified rigging points to bear the load.
To be clear - I am not going to attempt this, and should my colleague win the bid, the rigging will be contracted out to someone who knows what they are doing. I'm really just asking for my own knowledge. I imagine you would probably assemble it on the ground and use chain motors to lift it in place like we do for temporary use. I also know you aren't supposed to use chain motors for permanent installation unless you pin them off somehow.
Thanks for your time.
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Riggers time + scaff rental + motor rental + hardware for fixed mounting + profit?
From what I know most permanent installs aren't on motors but use fixed lines and would need a structural engineers sign off regardless here in South Africa.
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Gentleman,
I received a random call from a coworker today asking a question I didn't really know how to answer. I typically work in event production - not installation, and at that, most of the venues we work in have 16' ceilings at max. Mostly we ground support everything. On occasion we use chain motors, but when needed we use qualified riggers to do that work.
The question was "How much budget should I allot for the rigging of a 7 box array"? 26' from the ground - 3 clusters of 7. This is new construction, so I was assured there were certified rigging points to bear the load.
To be clear - I am not going to attempt this, and should my colleague win the bid, the rigging will be contracted out to someone who knows what they are doing. I'm really just asking for my own knowledge. I imagine you would probably assemble it on the ground and use chain motors to lift it in place like we do for temporary use. I also know you aren't supposed to use chain motors for permanent installation unless you pin them off somehow.
Thanks for your time.
Depending on where this is located the specific engineering requirements will change but there are a few things that may be required that can significantly change the costs;
- Engineering certifications for the loads and the rigging methods
- Engineering inspections after the installation
- Seismic requirements
- Special motors with braking systems designed for permanent suspension and not just lifting (this can be done for permanent install but does require certification)
Lee
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You can reach out to Chuck Fudge, who has this post in the Marketplace for a ground supported EV line array from a now closed club in Peoria, IL. Chuck is the technical director for the management group that opened the club and has worked on other installs for them, including a dead hung KF600 system in an old theater.
https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,173064.0.html (https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,173064.0.html)
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As a general starting place system installs should budget 18-20% of hardware costs.
Lifts and rigging can be additional.
Obviously every situation different.
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Gentleman,
I received a random call from a coworker today asking a question I didn't really know how to answer. I typically work in event production - not installation, and at that, most of the venues we work in have 16' ceilings at max. Mostly we ground support everything. On occasion we use chain motors, but when needed we use qualified riggers to do that work.
The question was "How much budget should I allot for the rigging of a 7 box array"? 26' from the ground - 3 clusters of 7. This is new construction, so I was assured there were certified rigging points to bear the load.
To be clear - I am not going to attempt this, and should my colleague win the bid, the rigging will be contracted out to someone who knows what they are doing. I'm really just asking for my own knowledge. I imagine you would probably assemble it on the ground and use chain motors to lift it in place like we do for temporary use. I also know you aren't supposed to use chain motors for permanent installation unless you pin them off somehow.
Thanks for your time.
Impossible to say without more information.
Are the points in the right place or will additional gear be needed to get points to the right place?
Is it an open floor below the points so a lift can be brought in?
Is the floor flat or raked or are there steps that will impede a lift completely?
Is the floor slab on grade or does it need to be determined if the floor will even support a lift?
What size/type lift is needed? Think two installers + tools + heaviest single load + room to work.
If a lift isn’t/can’t be used how will you get personal up and is there an additional point or points for motor rigging?
Is there adequate power for the types of motors available to you?
Just a starting list but you get the idea.
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The architects and engineers should specify how, where, and with what materials and methods the arrays should be hung. If they haven't, the client should get on them now for information. Once you have that in hand you can get bids from rigging companies or firms that do this kind of installation. Without specifications you'll get 'back of envelope' estimates, not bids.
Also, vertical arrays designed specifically for installation often have different ways of assembling the array and the way you've done portable PA suspension my not apply. You'll need to take a good look at "Really The Fine Manual" if this is not portable equipment you're accustomed to using.
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There's a significant difference between an AV installation company installing a system, and a live production company trying to install a system.
A good install company has individuals with production experience and vice versa, but even if the equipment is similar - it's not the same.
Some companies can do both well, but doing one doesn't automatically mean they can do the other.
With the small amount of info given - it seems like this may be what is at play. This is simply a days work for any good install company.