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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Wireless and Communications => Topic started by: MikeHarris on January 30, 2020, 03:04:17 am

Title: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: MikeHarris on January 30, 2020, 03:04:17 am
We are Shure dealers and I am curious which Axient features lead you to prefer it over the ULXD.
while the 4 channel receiver is @ 25% more than the ULXD4Q...the tx are @ 2X the price and am just wondering if the benefits are evident
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: David Sturzenbecher on January 30, 2020, 07:22:04 am
We are Shure dealers and I am curious which Axient features lead you to prefer it over the ULXD.
while the 4 channel receiver is @ 25% more than the ULXD4Q...the tx are @ 2X the price and am just wondering if the benefits are evident

For me, the main benefit is the automatic interference detection and frequency hopping. You need to get additional hardware for this though.  I donít typically use the frequency diversity transmitters as no one will hear a blip in my applications.
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Ike Zimbel on January 30, 2020, 08:33:43 am
We are Shure dealers and I am curious which Axient features lead you to prefer it over the ULXD.
while the 4 channel receiver is @ 25% more than the ULXD4Q...the tx are @ 2X the price and am just wondering if the benefits are evident
The diversity system in the AD is much more sophisticated than the system in the ULXD. The very short strokes is that AD takes the best of both antennas all of the time while ULXD is taking an "either A, or B" approach.
Other features that contribute to the price difference include the AD headphone system, which allows you to monitor any device on the Dante network from one unit, and, all of the i/o on the back. The fact that ULXD has NO headphone output at all has always bugged me.
       So, they are not apples-to-apples. The ULXD works fine, in many applications, the AD is a great system.
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Christopher Irwin on January 30, 2020, 03:28:30 pm
We are Shure dealers and I am curious which Axient features lead you to prefer it over the ULXD.
while the 4 channel receiver is @ 25% more than the ULXD4Q...the tx are @ 2X the price and am just wondering if the benefits are evident


There is also a huge difference in the available frequency range - Axient gives you the entire 184MHz (?) range, whereas with ULXD you have to choose a range in roughly 60MHz increments. For me, this is a huge selling point. The better diversity system also gives a quality rating ("Q") for the RF signal - so even if you have full bars, it will notify you of poor quality if you happen to have significant interference, reflections, etc (at least that is my understanding).
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Henry Cohen on January 30, 2020, 05:30:21 pm
The diversity system in the AD is much more sophisticated than the system in the ULXD. The very short strokes is that AD takes the best of both antennas all of the time while ULXD is taking an "either A, or B" approach.
Other features that contribute to the price difference include the AD headphone system, which allows you to monitor any device on the Dante network from one unit, and, all of the i/o on the back. The fact that ULXD has NO headphone output at all has always bugged me.
       So, they are not apples-to-apples. The ULXD works fine, in many applications, the AD is a great system.

It can't be stressed enough in this comparison, the far more advanced design and performance of the RF section in the Axient over the ULXD. Digging a bit deeper in Ike's comments, the ULXD will blindly switch to the other antenna once the predefined BER threshold is surpassed, whether or not the newly switched antenna has better or worse RSSI/BER.

Additionally, the Axient receiver has far better sensitivity and selectivity, while the transmitters have significantly better linearity and RF power control. Further, the transmission scheme and codec are superior. (Most of the 'golden ears' will say the Axient sounds better than the ULXD.) In short, when the ULXD is reaching its performance limits, the Axient still has a lot of headroom.

The real question is what makes ROI sense for you.
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Jason Glass on January 30, 2020, 05:46:20 pm
It can't be stressed enough in this comparison, the far more advanced design and performance of the RF section in the Axient over the ULXD. Digging a bit deeper in Ike's comments, the ULXD will blindly switch to the other antenna once the predefined BER threshold is surpassed, whether or not the newly switched antenna has better or worse RSSI/BER.

Additionally, the Axient receiver has far better sensitivity and selectivity, while the transmitters have significantly better linearity and RF power control. Further, the transmission scheme and codec are superior. (Most of the 'golden ears' will say the Axient sounds better than the ULXD.) In short, when the ULXD is reaching its performance limits, the Axient still has a lot of headroom.

The real question is what makes ROI sense for you.

It's also worth noting, although not necessarily applicable to the OP, that AD's superior RX front end linearity and tight filtering allow an advanced user under extreme conditions and high channel counts to space channel frequencies closer together than best practice normally allows.
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Henry Cohen on January 30, 2020, 05:58:28 pm
. . . to space channel frequencies closer together than best practice normally allows.

The only thing closer is Jason's haircut  ;D
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Mac Kerr on January 30, 2020, 06:25:05 pm
The only thing closer is Jason's haircut  ;D

Hey, I resemble that remark!

Mac
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: brian maddox on January 30, 2020, 06:46:58 pm
The only thing closer is Jason's haircut  ;D

So, if i've still got all [most] of my hair does that mean i can't have as many channels of RF?
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Henry Cohen on January 30, 2020, 06:58:49 pm
So, if i've still got all [most] of my hair does that mean i can't have as many channels of RF?

Correct. You have to use Samson wireless.
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: brian maddox on January 30, 2020, 08:58:22 pm
Correct. You have to use Samson wireless.

Okay, Henry wins the internet or the RF bandwidth or something 'cause that's funny....
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Russell Ault on January 30, 2020, 09:16:46 pm
Correct. You have to use Samson wireless.

Well, at least you're not heartless; I was expecting you to banish us to 2.4 GHz...

-Russ
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: MikeHarris on January 31, 2020, 02:28:21 am
Thanks for the details on performance as it confirms our clients success with both systems.
In our church fixed installs the less sophisticated ULXD has yet to reveal any shortcomings while our event and touring clients often comment on how the AD has impressive range and performance in difficult situations.
We have yet to deliver any of the bi-directional systems
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Scott Helmke on January 31, 2020, 09:55:00 am
So, if i've still got all [most] of my hair does that mean i can't have as many channels of RF?

The output might be a bit fuzzy.
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Pete Erskine on February 01, 2020, 01:46:42 pm
So, if i've still got all [most] of my hair does that mean i can't have as many channels of RF?

RF Spectrum compression requires green hair.... for infinite RF channels...
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: brian maddox on February 01, 2020, 04:24:39 pm
RF Spectrum compression requires green hair.... for infinite RF channels...

I feel like you omitted this nugget of truth in your recent podcast appearance.  :) 

[heading to CVS for hair dye...]
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Andrien (No Last Name) on February 02, 2020, 03:31:29 am
If our church got the budget, I would really like to splurge on the Axient ADX system. It will probably saves a lot of time training new sound engineer how to scan automatically than use Workbench plus some TV Tunner to find non-interfering frequency especially on not so clean wireless spectrum here. I can also imagine doing remote troubleshooting easier with the Spectrum Manager especially when I'm not around. In the end we got only 1 QLX-D and still a big jump to our old SLX system, so sound quality wise ULXD will be good I think.
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: MikeHarris on February 02, 2020, 08:53:18 am
Surprised you got 41 posts in without being banned
Rules say use full real name
Macís gonna have a cow man.
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Andrien (No Last Name) on February 02, 2020, 09:17:40 pm
Surprised you got 41 posts in without being banned
Rules say use full real name
Macís gonna have a cow man.
That's my real name, and yes I only have 1 single name with no last name. It has been discussed previously.
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 03, 2020, 07:41:13 am
If our church got the budget, I would really like to splurge on the Axient ADX system. It will probably saves a lot of time training new sound engineer how to scan automatically than use Workbench plus some TV Tunner to find non-interfering frequency especially on not so clean wireless spectrum here. I can also imagine doing remote troubleshooting easier with the Spectrum Manager especially when I'm not around. In the end we got only 1 QLX-D and still a big jump to our old SLX system, so sound quality wise ULXD will be good I think.
Hi Andrien-

I'm confused.  Why would your church techs need to change frequencies?  "Portable" church that never uses the same venue again?  That travels 50-100 miles?

I agree that QLX-D is a big audio and RF step up from SLX.  We over-hire Axient when we run out of our Sennheisers and I prefer the Axient until we get into the Senny 3000-5000 series when, from an audio standpoint, they are roughly equals AND the Axient is less money.
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Andrien (No Last Name) on February 03, 2020, 10:08:07 pm
Hi Andrien-

I'm confused.  Why would your church techs need to change frequencies?  "Portable" church that never uses the same venue again?  That travels 50-100 miles?

I agree that QLX-D is a big audio and RF step up from SLX.  We over-hire Axient when we run out of our Sennheisers and I prefer the Axient until we get into the Senny 3000-5000 series when, from an audio standpoint, they are roughly equals AND the Axient is less money.

Our church is just exactly beside another Church (about 100meters) which also uses lots of wireless microphone, and we do not coordinate on our frequency especially during big events like Christmas or Good Friday. Not only that, our country is also not known for having strong laws in regards to stray frequency. The law in regards to Wireless Mic is pretty much useless as no body follows that, and there are not clear allocation between TV channels and open channels, this made worse by those Chinese fake wireless mic that we do not even know which frequency it actually uses without a scanner.

There is one time we have do freq coordination and testing with Workbench but on the day itself the mics fail 8) . I do not have a proper tools for scanning (only use RTL-SDR) so that might be the reason also (I do calibrate that RTL-SDR with KAL and try to find one with quite good ppm oscillator).

As I'm doing this voluntarily, system like Axient will help a lot on automating frequency coordination and even better I could remote the system whenever trouble shall arise using OpenVPN. The fact that the church used to employ office boy as sound technician thus any tools that simplify technical troubleshooting should help a lot. There are one time where we use about 12 wireless microphone which some we rent and the rental guy doesn't do a good coordination, it under perform on actual Christmas day.


Sorry for my rants, our church just got conned a bit on our new line array system and right now the decision maker person are kinda pointing finger towards the problem. Also English is not my first language so sorry for any grammar or spelling mistake. Cheers

Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Tim McCulloch on February 03, 2020, 10:27:51 pm
Our church is just exactly beside another Church (about 100meters) which also uses lots of wireless microphone, and we do not coordinate on our frequency especially during big events like Christmas or Good Friday. Not only that, our country is also not known for having strong laws in regards to stray frequency. The law in regards to Wireless Mic is pretty much useless as no body follows that, and there are not clear allocation between TV channels and open channels, this made worse by those Chinese fake wireless mic that we do not even know which frequency it actually uses without a scanner.

There is one time we have do freq coordination and testing with Workbench but on the day itself the mics fail 8) . I do not have a proper tools for scanning (only use RTL-SDR) so that might be the reason also (I do calibrate that RTL-SDR with KAL and try to find one with quite good ppm oscillator).

As I'm doing this voluntarily, system like Axient will help a lot on automating frequency coordination and even better I could remote the system whenever trouble shall arise using OpenVPN. The fact that the church used to employ office boy as sound technician thus any tools that simplify technical troubleshooting should help a lot. There are one time where we use about 12 wireless microphone which some we rent and the rental guy doesn't do a good coordination, it under perform on actual Christmas day.


Sorry for my rants, our church just got conned a bit on our new line array system and right now the decision maker person are kinda pointing finger towards the problem. Also English is not my first language so sorry for any grammar or spelling mistake. Cheers

All good, Andrien!  It sounds like a more cooperative spirit with the neighboring church would help but I don't hold out great hope for it (why are churches so territorial?).
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Andrien (No Last Name) on February 04, 2020, 03:31:05 am
All good, Andrien!  It sounds like a more cooperative spirit with the neighboring church would help but I don't hold out great hope for it (why are churches so territorial?).
Wish like that, but yeah different denomination so there's that (they're Catholic while ours Protestant). Got problem also with the councils, but I believe it is not professional to talk about that here tho.
I am actually B.Comp.Sci grads, and are not technically trained for sound engineering but doing this out of interest and hobby but with lack of techies in our church anyone with bits of tech knowledge will do. I'm grateful that our other churches' sound tech are very kind in sharing information with me, while I also help them a little bit on networking and computer knowledge.
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Thomas Le on February 04, 2020, 09:53:31 am
Hi Andrien, I volunteer at two catholic churches on weekends and it strikes me odd that a catholic church uses more wireless than a protestant church, I would imagine it would be the opposite. On two systems that I touch on, the max I work with is five, but not all five are on at the same time, unless you're factoring in the whole campus like the worship space and the activity hall.
Title: Re: Shure Axient vs ULXD
Post by: Andrien (No Last Name) on February 04, 2020, 09:23:25 pm
Hi Andrien, I volunteer at two catholic churches on weekends and it strikes me odd that a catholic church uses more wireless than a protestant church, I would imagine it would be the opposite. On two systems that I touch on, the max I work with is five, but not all five are on at the same time, unless you're factoring in the whole campus like the worship space and the activity hall.

You won't believe it but my other Catholic church is actually more modern sounding than our church. AFAIK they have a band to play for modern worship, but their wireless is mostly used for drama during Christmas and Good Friday (and that's also when we do use a lot of Wireless mic). I am not sure how they work it out, but I got some idea on how much mic they use as my uncle used to help them purchase Shure wireless mic from Singapore. They do not have onsite campus, I think most churches here build another school/university separate from the church building as they do have quite a number of branches, like my church do have branches quite spread throughout west part of the country. One of my branch rent about 20 Mipro wireless microphone on one university drama session, not sure how much do they rent on the main event as I'm only helping there once. If only somebody can rent out Axient :sigh:.

I think I have been quite out of topic, lets go back to the main topic ;D.