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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Product Reviews => Topic started by: Phil B on December 25, 2021, 12:19:05 PM

Title: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 25, 2021, 12:19:05 PM
We're looking at potentially getting a "stick" / column PA. I like the idea of being able to wall-mount the tops. Has anyone perhaps compared the JBL PRX One, HK Audio Elements and db Technologies ES1203?


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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Steve-White on December 25, 2021, 01:38:56 PM
For what purpose?

If you were mowing 2 1/2 acres and were asking about how well an 18" battery power lawnmower would work, I would advise you against that and suggest something with a 60" mowing deck and at least 25 HP.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 25, 2021, 01:52:24 PM
Our church is moving into a beautiful old, but acoustically challenging, building. It's an old style stone church with a big echo. The audience zone is about 18m deep and 9m wide. Someone suggested we look at a column array (as proper line array is above our budget) and I've been intrigued, especially with HK now bringing out the 15"  elements sub.

I was wondering if anyone has done a comparison between the options, as obviously not everything is readable off of a spec sheet.

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on December 25, 2021, 02:16:56 PM
Our church is moving into a beautiful old, but acoustically challenging, building. It's an old style stone church with a big echo. The audience zone is about 18m deep and 9m wide. Someone suggested we look at a column array (as proper line array is above our budget) and I've been intrigued, especially with HK now bringing out the 15"  elements sub.

Well.. at least you're asking before buying. Column speakers do work in these spaces if distributed down the length and delayed, and a little less well if deployed as a distributed system with no delays. The key is to keep the SPL from any given column low enough that it doesn't excite the room too much or overlap with the coverage of the other speakers.. and of course they have to be elevated and pointed down at the listeners... not pointed at the far walls. Two speakers of any type at the front pointed straight back and cranked up so it can be heard in the back rows will do nothing but excite the room and be an uninteligible mess for spoken word.

Is that HK system designed to be separated and mounted? Most of the portable stick systems only work with the stick mounted in the sub, but JBL, Bose and others have columns that are designed for installation.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 25, 2021, 02:24:01 PM
Well.. at least you're asking before buying. Column speakers do work in these spaces if distributed down the length and delayed, and a little less well if deployed as a distributed system with no delays. The key is to keep the SPL from any given column low enough that it doesn't excite the room too much or overlap with the coverage of the other speakers.. and of course they have to be elevated and pointed down at the listeners... not pointed at the far walls. Two speakers of any type at the front pointed straight back and cranked up so it can be heard in the back rows will do nothing but excite the room and be an uninteligible mess for spoken word.

Is that HK system designed to be separated and mounted? Most of the portable stick systems only work with the stick mounted in the sub, but JBL, Bose and others have columns that are designed for installation.
That's kind of the reason I'm particularly drawn to the HK. It allows one to stack the array part as high as you want, has an install kit which allows for tops to be wall mounted, the new 15" sub has option to set delay and then it also has independent tops (with their own amp) we could setup as delays midway through the room. My main concern is whether they'll have enough punch as the advertised SPL isn't particularly high.

I've heard SPL numbers aren't necessarily consistent across manufacturers so was wondering how it compares to the competition. And then obviously how the sound quality compares

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on December 25, 2021, 03:10:16 PM
My main concern is whether they'll have enough punch as the advertised SPL isn't particularly high.

You can't power your way to clarity in a highly reverbant room like this, the only two solutions that work are (lots of)room treatments or multiple speakers that are only just loud enough to be heard.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Doug Fowler on December 25, 2021, 03:44:17 PM
Our church is moving into a beautiful old, but acoustically challenging, building. It's an old style stone church with a big echo. The audience zone is about 18m deep and 9m wide. Someone suggested we look at a column array (as proper line array is above our budget) and I've been intrigued, especially with HK now bringing out the 15"  elements sub.

I was wondering if anyone has done a comparison between the options, as obviously not everything is readable off of a spec sheet.

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Have a look at the Danley column speakers.  The vertical pattern control is outstanding. Itís a wide horizontal pattern so it lends itself better to a center fill, at least in your situation (I think).  Model it in Danleyís prediction software. 

Renkus-Heinz also has good solutions but itís steering, and likely pretty expensive.

Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 25, 2021, 04:01:54 PM
Have a look at the Danley column speakers.  The vertical pattern control is outstanding. Itís a wide horizontal pattern so it lends itself better to a center fill, at least in your situation (I think).  Model it in Danleyís prediction software. 

Renkus-Heinz also has good solutions but itís steering, and likely pretty expensive.
Thanks. I'll definitely have a look at those. I guess I should also mention I'm in South Africa and not all the makes/models are available here.

I was just reading up about the dbTechnology ingenia series which is also pretty cool.

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Doug Fowler on December 25, 2021, 04:27:52 PM
Thanks. I'll definitely have a look at those. I guess I should also mention I'm in South Africa and not all the makes/models are available here.

I was just reading up about the dbTechnology ingenia series which is also pretty cool.

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It looks like Danley has distribution in South Africa.  Iím sure Renkus-Heinz does also.

https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/international-danley-sales-team/
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Keith Broughton on December 26, 2021, 06:35:13 AM
Have a look at the Danley column speakers.  The vertical pattern control is outstanding. Itís a wide horizontal pattern so it lends itself better to a center fill, at least in your situation (I think).  Model it in Danleyís prediction software. 

Renkus-Heinz also has good solutions but itís steering, and likely pretty expensive.
I have used the Danley SBH10 and SBH20 and they are excellent sounding speakers with very good vertical pattern control.
They are not your conventional designed column speakers!
They won't fix the acoustic problem with your room but will sound better at a distance than most other speakers.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 27, 2021, 02:35:12 PM
Doing some more reading over the last few days I've moved away from the portable PA / complete set type columns to the larger, more standalone models with separate subs such as dB Ingenia, RCF NX L24, JBL CBT & FBT Vertus.

Having never worked with these column types before, how would they compare to traditional point source boxes, such as Yamaha DXR12s? They obviously have smaller woofers, although more of them. Anyway, I'd really appreciate your thoughts.

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Steve-White on December 27, 2021, 03:24:31 PM
^^^ You're headed in a good direction sir.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Doug Fowler on December 27, 2021, 04:25:10 PM
Doing some more reading over the last few days I've moved away from the portable PA / complete set type columns to the larger, more standalone models with separate subs such as dB Ingenia, RCF NX L24, JBL CBT & FBT Vertus.

Having never worked with these column types before, how would they compare to traditional point source boxes, such as Yamaha DXR12s? They obviously have smaller woofers, although more of them. Anyway, I'd really appreciate your thoughts.

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Yamaha and other direct radiating designs will have zero pattern control or close to it below the crossover point, where the HF horn is out of the picture.   Thatís a bad thing in an acoustically challenged space.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: lindsay Dean on December 28, 2021, 01:12:54 PM
Pictures and proposed seating layout of the room would help greatly.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 28, 2021, 01:18:01 PM
Pictures and proposed seating layout of the room would help greatly.
Hi Lindsay. Thanks for your input. I think the key questions are how the various column  / tall thin speakers compare to each other, as well as to more traditional point source speakers.

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Caleb Dueck on December 28, 2021, 06:37:48 PM
Hi Lindsay. Thanks for your input. I think the key questions are how the various column  / tall thin speakers compare to each other, as well as to more traditional point source speakers.

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If this is for an installation - you just completely missed the most critical detail.  How a speaker 'sounds' is low on the list compared to dispersion pattern and pattern control. 
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 28, 2021, 11:12:34 PM
How does the dispersion pattern and pattern control of a modern column speaker (eg dB Ingenia 1T) compare to a traditional point source speaker?

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Doug Fowler on December 28, 2021, 11:41:23 PM
How does the dispersion pattern and pattern control of a modern column speaker (eg dB Ingenia 1T) compare to a traditional point source speaker?

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Do yourself a favor and run some models. 
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 28, 2021, 11:50:31 PM
Do yourself a favor and run some models.
Yeah, that seems my only option. Was hoping the forum would help narrow the field, but I guess I'll have to try source as many models as I can in the new year.

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Doug Fowler on December 29, 2021, 12:08:06 AM
Yeah, that seems my only option. Was hoping the forum would help narrow the field, but I guess I'll have to try source as many models as I can in the new year.

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You already have most of what you need to know courtesy of this forum but Iím not sure you realize it.

Find your local distributors for demos. 
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 29, 2021, 12:18:20 AM
You already have most of what you need to know courtesy of this forum but Iím not sure you realize it.

Find your local distributors for demos.
Thanks. Sadly I don't have a single user experience, which is kind of the one thing I can't read off of a spec sheet.

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Doug Fowler on December 29, 2021, 12:35:46 AM
Thanks. Sadly I don't have a single user experience, which is kind of the one thing I can't read off of a spec sheet.

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Lemme break it down:

ANY ďcolumnĒ type loudspeaker will offer FAR more intelligibility (which is what you really want) than any direct radiating LF traditional loudspeaker.  The height of the column mostly determines how low (frequency wise) you still maintain vertical pattern control.  Forget about anything that is a traditional direct radiating box.  A horn loaded point source loudspeaker will offer pattern control on both axes (sp?) but needs to be large in both dimensions to accomplish this.

Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 29, 2021, 12:48:22 AM
Lemme break it down:

ANY ďcolumnĒ type loudspeaker will offer FAR more intelligibility (which is what you really want) than any direct radiating LF traditional loudspeaker.  The height of the column mostly determines how low (frequency wise) you still maintain vertical pattern control.  Forget about anything that is a traditional direct radiating box.  A horn loaded point source loudspeaker will offer pattern control on both axes (sp?) but needs to be large in both dimensions to accomplish this.
Thank you. That confirms my (very limited) understanding.

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 29, 2021, 01:33:06 AM
Which brings me back to my original question as to the differences between the various speakers.

I find it intriguing that had I asked for a comparison between Yamaha DXR and EV ELX I would likely have received a number of opinions. Asking a similar question for columns yields hardly any insight.

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Dave Garoutte on December 29, 2021, 12:43:39 PM
Which brings me back to my original question as to the differences between the various speakers.

I find it intriguing that had I asked for a comparison between Yamaha DXR and EV ELX I would likely have received a number of opinions. Asking a similar question for columns yields hardly any insight.

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I would guess that's because they are primarily used for installs and most posters here tend towards events.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Don T. Williams on December 29, 2021, 03:33:37 PM
To add a little to what Doug said, the horn loaded point source may need to be very large physically to achieve good pattern control in both vertical and horizontal planes.  Columns with enough length can produce greater intelligibility, but to work well over a fairly broad frequency range, the individual drivers in most designs are fairly small.  2" to 3" "full range" cone drivers are typically used.  The one downside of these designs is that the horizontal coverage is usually very wide.  They may not work well in narrow rooms with very reflective walls, and they can spill onto the stage in other cases.  Like many things, the best sound system for a specific room is probably the one with the best compromises unless there is an unlimited budget available.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 29, 2021, 03:39:47 PM


To add a little to what Doug said, the horn loaded point source may need to be very large physically to achieve good pattern control in both vertical and horizontal planes.  Columns with enough length can produce greater intelligibility, but to work well over a fairly broad frequency range, the individual drivers in most designs are fairly small.  2" to 3" "full range" cone drivers are typically used.  The one downside of these designs is that the horizontal coverage is usually very wide.  They may not work well in narrow rooms with very reflective walls, and they can spill onto the stage in other cases.  Like many things, the best sound system for a specific room is probably the one with the best compromises unless there is an unlimited budget available.

Thanks Don, that helps. The columns I'm looking at have between 6.5" and 12" drivers with smaller (1" to 1 1/4" HF). I'm assuming this increases the quality of their lower mids?

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Don T. Williams on December 29, 2021, 07:09:17 PM

Thanks Don, that helps. The columns I'm looking at have between 6.5" and 12" drivers with smaller (1" to 1 1/4" HF). I'm assuming this increases the quality of their lower mids?

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Sorry Phillip.  You had stated that first thing and I just got caught up in the general discussion of speaker design.  I am familiar with the ES1203 system and many other similar type (Bose L1, JBL Eon 1, et al)).  Most of these only have fairly short "line elements" and a separate amp/mixer/sub enclosure.  The full range "column" section in most of these are so short as to provide very little vertical control.  For that, lines of drivers that are 1m or greater in length are needed to have much control (2m and up is better).  In many portable applications these systems can sound acceptable.  Bose actually stated their L1 system is a "personal performing/monitor system". It was not designed to be a PA for a band. If you try to run these as a PA for a full band, they are very very limited.  The DB ES1203 is more powerful than the L1.  In general, an equal priced powered point source speaker will probably outperform the smaller of these type systems in terms of output level.  This is just my opinion.  Full disclosure - I am a DB Tech dealer and have more that 60 of their DVA and DVM products.  I do not do online sales.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 29, 2021, 10:56:17 PM
Sorry Phillip.  You had stated that first thing and I just got caught up in the general discussion of speaker design.  I am familiar with the ES1203 system and many other similar type (Bose L1, JBL Eon 1, et al)).  Most of these only have fairly short "line elements" and a separate amp/mixer/sub enclosure.  The full range "column" section in most of these are so short as to provide very little vertical control.  For that, lines of drivers that are 1m or greater in length are needed to have much control (2m and up is better).  In many portable applications these systems can sound acceptable.  Bose actually stated their L1 system is a "personal performing/monitor system". It was not designed to be a PA for a band. If you try to run these as a PA for a full band, they are very very limited.  The DB ES1203 is more powerful than the L1.  In general, an equal priced powered point source speaker will probably outperform the smaller of these type systems in terms of output level.  This is just my opinion.  Full disclosure - I am a DB Tech dealer and have more that 60 of their DVA and DVM products.  I do not do online sales.
Thanks for those insights.

Have you looked at any of the dB technologies Ingenia products?

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Dave Garoutte on December 30, 2021, 03:00:26 AM

Thanks Don, that helps. The columns I'm looking at have between 6.5" and 12" drivers with smaller (1" to 1 1/4" HF). I'm assuming this increases the quality of their lower mids?

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The Danley SHB series uses a rather different method to achieve an actual single wave front.  Very interesting.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 30, 2021, 03:18:08 AM
The Danley SHB series uses a rather different method to achieve an actual single wave front.  Very interesting.
Is there any way to obtain ballpark pricing on the Danleys online? I can't find any sites that have prices.

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Don T. Williams on December 30, 2021, 01:18:48 PM
Thanks for those insights.

Have you looked at any of the dB technologies Ingenia products?

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I have four of the IG 4's and two if the IG 3's in my rental/production stock at this time. I recently used two IG 4's per side over two S 30N's for an outdoor event to cover about 1,000 people with a blues band and a 9-piece variety band with horns.  They worked beautifully!  when they are stacked two high and IR coupled, they have some digital steering settings that work well, and with a "line source" of about 2 m, there is good vertical control of the low-mid to mid-highs.  If this is what you are leaning towards, I think you will find several forum members that really like and use this product.  As always it is tool and used in the right situation it works well.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Dave Garoutte on December 30, 2021, 01:22:52 PM
Is there any way to obtain ballpark pricing on the Danleys online? I can't find any sites that have prices.

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It's a dealer only thing.  Mike Pyle here in Nor Cal.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 30, 2021, 11:42:34 PM
It's a dealer only thing.  Mike Pyle here in Nor Cal.
Even the dealer sites don't have pricing. Puts up big red flags for me when there is secrecy / lack of transparency around a product.

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Steve-White on December 30, 2021, 11:52:17 PM
Even the dealer sites don't have pricing. Puts up big red flags for me when there is secrecy / lack of transparency around a product.

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Well it is somewhat of a lack of transparency, but not by design of the manufacturer.  These products are for a niche market and typically not found at retail outlets.  They have dealership networks, but are visible only to those in the industry.  They don't utilize standard retail marketing which is good, because they don't compete with lower end stuff and it doesn't add to price of the product.

Hope I'm explaining this, having a bit of a struggle to articulate it.

Danley gear is the real deal high end stuff.

Look up "McCauley Sound" on a web search.  Another major league audio manufacturer that's been around for ~40 years and isn't in the mainstream.  But McCauley gear is worldwide at fixed installations and touring systems, theme parks, etc.  McCauley is a heavy hitter in the audio industry and virtually unheard of in the retail arena.

http://www.mccauleysound.com/
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 31, 2021, 12:01:20 AM
Well it is somewhat of a lack of transparency, but not by design of the manufacturer.  These products are for a niche market and typically not found at retail outlets.  They have dealership networks, but are visible only to those in the industry.  They don't utilize standard retail marketing which is good, because they don't compete with lower end stuff and it doesn't add to price of the product.

Hope I'm explaining this, having a bit of a struggle to articulate it.

Danley gear is the real deal high end stuff.

Look up "McCauley Sound" on a web search.  Another major league audio manufacturer that's been around for 40+ years and isn't in the mainstream.  But McCauley gear is worldwide at fixed installations and touring systems, theme parks, etc.  McCauley is a heavy hitter in the audio industry and virtually unheard of in the retail arena.
I get all of that. Still doesn't require the price to be a state secret though. Speaking of which, does anyone have any idea what the pricing for SBH10 and SBH20 would be?

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Doug Fowler on December 31, 2021, 12:25:05 AM
I get all of that. Still doesn't require the price to be a state secret though. Speaking of which, does anyone have any idea what the pricing for SBH10 and SBH20 would be?

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Itís hardly a state secret.  An email or phone call gets you the information you want.

Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Dave Garoutte on December 31, 2021, 03:54:09 PM
Itís hardly a state secret.  An email or phone call gets you the information you want.
Exactly, plus, they aren't building hundreds at a time, so pricing may vary a bit.  Your dealer can get you the final pricing and delivery.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Steve-White on December 31, 2021, 04:37:09 PM
Itís hardly a state secret.  An email or phone call gets you the information you want.

For the OP.  Phillip, without sounding condescending to your sir.  When you move into the upper echelon of professional gear the manufacturers control the access points by design.

For instance, you can only buy a new Stihl chainsaw from an authorized dealer.  No back door.  Can't buy a new one at Home Depot or Lowes or eBay.  Why not?  Because Stihl wants to ensure their products are represented by knowledgeable professionals and deployed for success.

Hand an idiot the set of keys to a Lamborghini, Ferrari, Hellcat, Shelby Cobra, or C8 Vette and the results will most likely be spectacular as one can see on Youtube every day.

Take a Danley system that's in an installation, if the gear is improperly setup and doesn't sound good - the box still says Danley on the side of it, or McCauley, JBL, EV, whatever.  Upper echelon manufacturers are aware of this - they aren't just interested in sales, they are interested in results.

I'm a "dog guy" and have raised German Shepherds for 45 years.  Over the years, I've gotten into the "inner circle" of working German Shepherd bloodlines.  Dogs that are capable of law enforcement and military service.  These are the high end of the working bloodlines and mainly are imports from Germany or Eastern Europe.  I guarantee you that I can buy dogs that the average Joe Blow can't get their hands on - or wouldn't even know where to go look.  These are hardcore dogs that in the wrong hands would be a disaster - for professional experienced use only.  The breeders screen the people that get their dogs, again it's not just about the sale, it's about a proper home for the dog and obtaining "results" within the bloodline.  A reputable breeder will never place a formidable dog into the hands of the inexperienced - ever.

So, talk to a Danley Rep and get a consultation - or simply go online onto Sweetwater or Guitar Center and buy some speakers and hang 'em up and hope.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Doug Fowler on December 31, 2021, 05:22:04 PM
For the OP.  Phillip, without sounding condescending to your sir.  When you move into the upper echelon of professional gear the manufacturers control the access points by design.

For instance, you can only buy a new Stihl chainsaw from an authorized dealer.  No back door.  Can't buy a new one at Home Depot or Lowes or eBay.  Why not?  Because Stihl wants to ensure their products are represented by knowledgeable professionals and deployed for success.

Hand an idiot the set of keys to a Lamborghini, Ferrari, Hellcat, Shelby Cobra, or C8 Vette and the results will most likely be spectacular as one can see on Youtube every day.

Take a Danley system that's in an installation, if the gear is improperly setup and doesn't sound good - the box still says Danley on the side of it, or McCauley, JBL, EV, whatever.  Upper echelon manufacturers are aware of this - they aren't just interested in sales, they are interested in results.

I'm a "dog guy" and have raised German Shepherds for 45 years.  Over the years, I've gotten into the "inner circle" of working German Shepherd bloodlines.  Dogs that are capable of law enforcement and military service.  These are the high end of the working bloodlines and mainly are imports from Germany or Eastern Europe.  I guarantee you that I can buy dogs that the average Joe Blow can't get their hands on - or wouldn't even know where to go look.  These are hardcore dogs that in the wrong hands would be a disaster - for professional experienced use only.  The breeders screen the people that get their dogs, again it's not just about the sale, it's about a proper home for the dog and obtaining "results" within the bloodline.  A reputable breeder will never place a formidable dog into the hands of the inexperienced - ever.

So, talk to a Danley Rep and get a consultation - or simply go online onto Sweetwater or Guitar Center and buy some speakers and hang 'em up and hope.

Well said.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Phil B on December 31, 2021, 06:06:59 PM


For the OP.  Phillip, without sounding condescending to your sir.  When you move into the upper echelon of professional gear the manufacturers control the access points by design.

For instance, you can only buy a new Stihl chainsaw from an authorized dealer.  No back door.  Can't buy a new one at Home Depot or Lowes or eBay.  Why not?  Because Stihl wants to ensure their products are represented by knowledgeable professionals and deployed for success.

Hand an idiot the set of keys to a Lamborghini, Ferrari, Hellcat, Shelby Cobra, or C8 Vette and the results will most likely be spectacular as one can see on Youtube every day.

Take a Danley system that's in an installation, if the gear is improperly setup and doesn't sound good - the box still says Danley on the side of it, or McCauley, JBL, EV, whatever.  Upper echelon manufacturers are aware of this - they aren't just interested in sales, they are interested in results.

I'm a "dog guy" and have raised German Shepherds for 45 years.  Over the years, I've gotten into the "inner circle" of working German Shepherd bloodlines.  Dogs that are capable of law enforcement and military service.  These are the high end of the working bloodlines and mainly are imports from Germany or Eastern Europe.  I guarantee you that I can buy dogs that the average Joe Blow can't get their hands on - or wouldn't even know where to go look.  These are hardcore dogs that in the wrong hands would be a disaster - for professional experienced use only.  The breeders screen the people that get their dogs, again it's not just about the sale, it's about a proper home for the dog and obtaining "results" within the bloodline.  A reputable breeder will never place a formidable dog into the hands of the inexperienced - ever.

So, talk to a Danley Rep and get a consultation - or simply go online onto Sweetwater or Guitar Center and buy some speakers and hang 'em up and hope.

And yet a quick Google search gives a ton of pricing for all of the brands you've mentioned. Nobody is speaking about backdoor buying, so I don't get what high horse you're speaking from. You can have controlled access and published pricing at the same time.

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Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Steve-White on December 31, 2021, 08:31:42 PM
Good luck with your endeavor.
Title: Re: Column PAs
Post by: Doug Fowler on December 31, 2021, 08:36:31 PM

And yet a quick Google search gives a ton of pricing for all of the brands you've mentioned. Nobody is speaking about backdoor buying, so I don't get what high horse you're speaking from. You can have controlled access and published pricing at the same time.

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Thatís allÖ.