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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Ryan C. Davis on August 25, 2013, 10:52:02 AM
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I provided sound last night for a 3 piece all-girl bluegrass(progressive) band. I don't run a lot of show ever year, maybe half a dozen. I have what I would consider a decent rig, SRX715 Mains, 2 SRX718's, DRPA+, Crown Amps, EV Foldback, SL 24.4.2...
For whatever reason I feel like I get an excessive amount of energy when anyone says or sings anything with a "p" in it. The girl singing, the MC making announcements, etc... I got a lot of compliments on the show last night and I feel really good about most of it but for the life of me I could not figure out how to get rid of that freaking "puh" sound. I had that mic (SM58) High passed and I thought that would get rid of it since it seemed like the noise was coming from the subs but that didn't seem to help. I even raised the freq until it started affecting the way the singer sounded (150-180Hz) to see if that helped and I can't say it made an audible difference. I messed around a little with the parametric but everything else in the show was sounding really good so I decided to leave it how it was. I think I'm the one who noticed the most (obviously) but I'd sure love to know how to smooth that out without taking a giant cut somewhere. Any of you guys had that experience or have any pointers on how to remedy it?
TIA.
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I provided sound last night for a 3 piece all-girl bluegrass(progressive) band. I don't run a lot of show ever year, maybe half a dozen. I have what I would consider a decent rig, SRX715 Mains, 2 SRX718's, DRPA+, Crown Amps, EV Foldback, SL 24.4.2...
For whatever reason I feel like I get an excessive amount of energy when anyone says or sings anything with a "p" in it. The girl singing, the MC making announcements, etc... I got a lot of compliments on the show last night and I feel really good about most of it but for the life of me I could not figure out how to get rid of that freaking "puh" sound. I had that mic (SM58) High passed and I thought that would get rid of it since it seemed like the noise was coming from the subs but that didn't seem to help. I even raised the freq until it started affecting the way the singer sounded (150-180Hz) to see if that helped and I can't say it made an audible difference. I messed around a little with the parametric but everything else in the show was sounding really good so I decided to leave it how it was. I think I'm the one who noticed the most (obviously) but I'd sure love to know how to smooth that out without taking a giant cut somewhere. Any of you guys had that experience or have any pointers on how to remedy it?
TIA.
Adding a windscreen will help, but the best all around live technique is ...
mic technique.
If you are on a one off show, there might not be much you can do, but if the band is someone you have a longer term relationship with, make the singer conscious of the problem and have them try to turn their heads slightly on those sounds.
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I provided sound last night for a 3 piece all-girl bluegrass(progressive) band. I don't run a lot of show ever year, maybe half a dozen. I have what I would consider a decent rig, SRX715 Mains, 2 SRX718's, DRPA+, Crown Amps, EV Foldback, SL 24.4.2...
For whatever reason I feel like I get an excessive amount of energy when anyone says or sings anything with a "p" in it. The girl singing, the MC making announcements, etc... I got a lot of compliments on the show last night and I feel really good about most of it but for the life of me I could not figure out how to get rid of that freaking "puh" sound. I had that mic (SM58) High passed and I thought that would get rid of it since it seemed like the noise was coming from the subs but that didn't seem to help. I even raised the freq until it started affecting the way the singer sounded (150-180Hz) to see if that helped and I can't say it made an audible difference. I messed around a little with the parametric but everything else in the show was sounding really good so I decided to leave it how it was. I think I'm the one who noticed the most (obviously) but I'd sure love to know how to smooth that out without taking a giant cut somewhere. Any of you guys had that experience or have any pointers on how to remedy it?
TIA.
Short of better microphone technique from your vocalist, have you considered adding a windscreen to the mic? I guess what I'm really getting at is this: fix it at the source. Anything else is just polishing a t*rd.
Looks like a simul-post with Jay.
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Thanks guys. It's a band I work with regularly so I can address that with them but I wasn't sure if it was more me or them.
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I find that singing with lips on the grill and some assertive application of eq to compensate for proximity effect works best. The eq really needs to be a shelf with a roll off between 500Hz and 1kHz. With basic analog eq the fixed HPF and some low cut is a tolerable approximation. This is probably easier to get them to do than turning for every P.
The stream of air barely loses power over the first 6" while the sound itself falls off drastically in that distance, so getting close doesn't substantially worsen the blast but it strongly boosts the actual sound of the voice at the mic.
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I provided sound last night for a 3 piece all-girl bluegrass(progressive) band. I don't run a lot of show ever year, maybe half a dozen. I have what I would consider a decent rig, SRX715 Mains, 2 SRX718's, DRPA+, Crown Amps, EV Foldback, SL 24.4.2...
For whatever reason I feel like I get an excessive amount of energy when anyone says or sings anything with a "p" in it. The girl singing, the MC making announcements, etc... I got a lot of compliments on the show last night and I feel really good about most of it but for the life of me I could not figure out how to get rid of that freaking "puh" sound. I had that mic (SM58) High passed and I thought that would get rid of it since it seemed like the noise was coming from the subs but that didn't seem to help. I even raised the freq until it started affecting the way the singer sounded (150-180Hz) to see if that helped and I can't say it made an audible difference. I messed around a little with the parametric but everything else in the show was sounding really good so I decided to leave it how it was. I think I'm the one who noticed the most (obviously) but I'd sure love to know how to smooth that out without taking a giant cut somewhere. Any of you guys had that experience or have any pointers on how to remedy it?
TIA.
Did you have a cut at around 200 hz dialed in to cut the proximity effect?
SM58's almost always need it
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If it was coming out of the subs as you mentioned I would look at the DRPA..Sounds like you should lower the high pass on the subs
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If it was coming out of the subs as you mentioned I would look at the DRPA..Sounds like you should lower the high pass on the subs
If it's coming out of the subs, something's really awry. But...
To me it sounds like you need to make de-"puh" cuts in the LF on the vocal mic channels...
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I provided sound last night for a 3 piece all-girl bluegrass(progressive) band. I don't run a lot of show ever year, maybe half a dozen. I have what I would consider a decent rig, SRX715 Mains, 2 SRX718's, DRPA+, Crown Amps, EV Foldback, SL 24.4.2...
For whatever reason I feel like I get an excessive amount of energy when anyone says or sings anything with a "p" in it. The girl singing, the MC making announcements, etc... I got a lot of compliments on the show last night and I feel really good about most of it but for the life of me I could not figure out how to get rid of that freaking "puh" sound. I had that mic (SM58) High passed and I thought that would get rid of it since it seemed like the noise was coming from the subs but that didn't seem to help. I even raised the freq until it started affecting the way the singer sounded (150-180Hz) to see if that helped and I can't say it made an audible difference. I messed around a little with the parametric but everything else in the show was sounding really good so I decided to leave it how it was. I think I'm the one who noticed the most (obviously) but I'd sure love to know how to smooth that out without taking a giant cut somewhere. Any of you guys had that experience or have any pointers on how to remedy it?
TIA.
Tell them to puh puh puh please learn mic technique and maybe roll off the lows..or just hold the mic an inch or two farther away to start with.
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If it was coming out of the subs as you mentioned I would look at the DRPA..Sounds like you should lower the high pass on the subs
Or more to the point, lower the low pass on the subs. Using aux ed subs will let you keep vocals out of the subs altogether.
Better windscreens and better mic technique are the other answers.
Mac
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The slope of the highpass filter on the SL24 is only 6db/octave I believe. I find that I need to use the Low EQ (shelf) to cut out more of the lows, in addition to the HPF, to really get rid of the "puhs" with the StudioLive. Aux fed subs help too.
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As others have stated, fixing the problem BEFORE it gets to the mixer is the best solution. Any EQ adjustments you may make would be less effective.
Teaching people how to use a mic is the best solution, and if you're working with the band regularly, it shouldn't be too difficult. In practice, do the opposite on the EQ as what you would do to fix the problem. This will make it more pronounced and you can have them practice softening their P sounds until it's tolerable. Then go back to flat on the EQ and you're going to be sounding great.
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As others have stated, fixing the problem BEFORE it gets to the mixer is the best solution. Any EQ adjustments you may make would be less effective.
Teaching people how to use a mic is the best solution, and if you're working with the band regularly, it shouldn't be too difficult. In practice, do the opposite on the EQ as what you would do to fix the problem. This will make it more pronounced and you can have them practice softening their P sounds until it's tolerable. Then go back to flat on the EQ and you're going to be sounding great.
RE20's for everyone!!!!
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RE20's for everyone!!!!
Ah if only that were true. Up side, one of the easiest to get trouble free up close vocals, down side can't work the mic's tone, nor the tightest pattern around.
I think aside from some of it's other design features part of it's game is it doesn't actually let you get as close to the cap as the other standards'.
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Ah if only that were true. Up side, one of the easiest to get trouble free up close vocals, down side can't work the mic's tone, nor the tightest pattern around.
I think aside from some of it's other design features part of it's game is it doesn't actually let you get as close to the cap as the other standards'.
Wayne...
It was a joke. But not quite as funny as your response.
Bazinga!!!
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Wayne...
It was a joke. But not quite as funny as your response.
Bazinga!!!
Not sure what you mean, but I use them regularly for just those reasons.
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As mentioned earlier- the best solution is to stop the problem at the source. Mic technique is very important and should not be overlooked. Something I do to lesson the impact of initial hard consonants when singing backup vocals is to just eliminate them. There's no way to really harmonize initial T, P, B, K, S, etc. sounds... they're too percussive. If three singers all start with a "T" sound just a little off from each other it can sound stuttery and sloppy. Let the lead singer do the "T" sound while backup singers provide the following vowel sounds. For example, a lead line might be:
Pour some sugar on me
While the backup would be:
Or umm ooger on may
It's important to come in softly. If done right it enhances the lead vocal while making things sound a lot tighter.
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Sometimes, you just can't train the person singing or speaking.
Keep some clean windscreens handy and don't be afraid to use 'em.
Also, a compressor set to fast attack, fast release and a high ratio side chained with an EQ can be effective but a bit more high tech than a foam windsock.
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I've also found that people trained in theater tend to over enunciate their consonants, which is correct when you're on stage and unamplified or with distant mics but is the opposite of what is needed with closer vocal mics in a band context. Sometimes you have to suggest they "pull" their consonants rather than "push" them.
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Keep some clean windscreens handy and don't be afraid to use 'em.
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+1, Windscreens are your friend. Good quality black ones can be cleaned, cheap colored ones are , for me, disposables.
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Thanks guys. It's a band I work with regularly so I can address that with them but I wasn't sure if it was more me or them.
I am not familiar with the capabilities of your mixer but if you can put your vocals (sm58) into a subgroup and insert an EQ (if it isn’t there already) and you will need to scoop out the frequencies around 200hz. If you have a good sounding system and playback and tight miced instruments sound good then you will usually have a problem with the vocal mics. If you do as I say and use the inserted vocal sub group equalization to get good gain before feedback and deal with the 200hz problem you will get much better results.
I also use aux feed subs and keep the vocal mics out of the subs.
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With my particular mixer, with the particular mics we use, in our particular room, a small notch at around 125Hz on most of the vocal channels helped alleviate this.
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I provided sound last night for a 3 piece all-girl bluegrass(progressive) band. I don't run a lot of show ever year, maybe half a dozen. I have what I would consider a decent rig, SRX715 Mains, 2 SRX718's, DRPA+, Crown Amps, EV Foldback, SL 24.4.2...
For whatever reason I feel like I get an excessive amount of energy when anyone says or sings anything with a "p" in it. The girl singing, the MC making announcements, etc... I got a lot of compliments on the show last night and I feel really good about most of it but for the life of me I could not figure out how to get rid of that freaking "puh" sound. I had that mic (SM58) High passed and I thought that would get rid of it since it seemed like the noise was coming from the subs but that didn't seem to help. I even raised the freq until it started affecting the way the singer sounded (150-180Hz) to see if that helped and I can't say it made an audible difference. I messed around a little with the parametric but everything else in the show was sounding really good so I decided to leave it how it was. I think I'm the one who noticed the most (obviously) but I'd sure love to know how to smooth that out without taking a giant cut somewhere. Any of you guys had that experience or have any pointers on how to remedy it?
TIA.
Get thee a frequency sensitive compressor, or create one using a cheap EQ and a compressor with a side-chain input.
If you can monitor the frequency responsive of the plosive (RTA driven off cue bus will work fine), use that information to set up your de-esser. Except it will be a "de-puher" rather than a de-esser.
Find the problem frequencies, then adjust the attack and release times to dial it in.
Keith Broughton already mentioned this. If you need help setting it up, start a new thread please.
The reason the EQ can be cheap is because no audio passes through it out to your loudspeakers. It's merely used to boost problem frequencies into the compressor side-chain, causing the compressor to "activate" selectively on the plosives.
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I've also found that people trained in theater tend to over enunciate their consonants, which is correct when you're on stage and unamplified or with distant mics but is the opposite of what is needed with closer vocal mics in a band context. Sometimes you have to suggest they "pull" their consonants rather than "push" them.
Interesting that you should mention that.
I work with a singer that did Phantom of the Opera and Les Mis and I have to use a windscreen on his mic.
The Neuman 105 is perfect for his "sound" but I did have problems with 'plosives.
Nice Sennheiser windsock and presto...all good :)
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I provided sound last night for a 3 piece all-girl bluegrass(progressive) band. I don't run a lot of show ever year, maybe half a dozen. I have what I would consider a decent rig, SRX715 Mains, 2 SRX718's, DRPA+, Crown Amps, EV Foldback, SL 24.4.2...
For whatever reason I feel like I get an excessive amount of energy when anyone says or sings anything with a "p" in it. The girl singing, the MC making announcements, etc... I got a lot of compliments on the show last night and I feel really good about most of it but for the life of me I could not figure out how to get rid of that freaking "puh" sound. I had that mic (SM58) High passed and I thought that would get rid of it since it seemed like the noise was coming from the subs but that didn't seem to help. I even raised the freq until it started affecting the way the singer sounded (150-180Hz) to see if that helped and I can't say it made an audible difference. I messed around a little with the parametric but everything else in the show was sounding really good so I decided to leave it how it was. I think I'm the one who noticed the most (obviously) but I'd sure love to know how to smooth that out without taking a giant cut somewhere. Any of you guys had that experience or have any pointers on how to remedy it?
TIA.
I'll throw in my "two cents" here, and that's probably all it's worth. LOL Quick fix is to notch the lowest frequency on the channel eq, usually around 80 - 100 hz. It's not going to solve the problem, but it will help. Sometimes windscreens are not an option especially with something like a more discreet headset mic like countryman or some of the similar ones. You may be able to "train" the performers here as you have worked with them before, but on a one or two off performance, that won't work. It's hard to get people to change their habits, heck, if it were easy, it'd be easy to eliminate the problems with drugs, smoking, and alcohol. :o Some people are just not happy with the thought of the extra windscreens on their mics. Just some thoughts, not meaning to conflict with other suggestions.