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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: brian maddox on November 27, 2021, 05:10:19 PM
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Okay, so...
Can someone explain the Digico console lineup naming to me? Explain It Like I'm Five. In particular, a little idea of the history of these things would be helpful. Like which SDs came at which time/generation? And do they all use the same basic software? which ones are reaching EOL vs. which ones are "current"?
I know the S21/31 are the baby Digicos and don't use the same software as the SDs. And I know that the SD7 is the "big boy". But all the rest are just a fuzzy mess to me.
[I feel like there was a discussion of this sometime fairly recently, so a push in that direction would also be useful if this is a redundant question]
thanks!
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Lol. Good luck making any sense out it. But... I think the "Quantum" is now the big boy series now. Thought that the Q software could be popped into the SD line, but maybe not.
Be interesting to see a nice feature matrix of all the models throughout history to the present.
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Lol. Good luck making any sense out it. But... I think the "Quantum" is now the big boy series now. Thought that the Q software could be popped into the SD line, but maybe not.
Be interesting to see a nice feature matrix of all the models throughout history to the present.
I use DiGiCo everyday... and yes their product lineup is confusing... :o
Especially the I/O products
Quantum is the newest Desk, and S is the more budget tier. Keep in mind the SD series is getting older in the tooth, the SD7/SD8 came out in 2008.
Roughly Speaking I think lineup is as follows:
Quantum 7 - SD 7
Quantum 5 - SD 5
Quantum 338 - SD10?
N/A - SD8?
Quantum 225 - SD12? (SD12 came out in 2020 I believe, so confused where this lands)
N/A - SD9? (the SD9 came out in 2010)
SD series use the same basic software. I believe everything (except for the SD12) is running windows XP under the hood. Different SD consoles will have slightly different button layouts, but the software is the same.
Quantum offers a step up in processing capabilities, and uses a similar piece of software to SD. I have heard (I need to verify) that the Quantum series is running windows 11, which has... Windows XP going on virtually inside of that. I have touch a Quantum once and it seemed fairly similar to SD with some new bells and whistles.
My place of employment has started to purchase Quantums, and press releases withstanding, the actual reason is that the SD series is old, and we are uncertain of how many new features/updates there will be.
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I know the SD console series was updated with the stealth core after release which I believe expanded the channel count and processing capabilities.
I have heard rumor from a DiGiCo rep that this could potentially happen with Quantum, which would be nice.
Hopefully this is somewhat helpful, and hopefully someone who knows more than I will shed some more light. :)
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And...
Just when we thought it couldn't get MORE confusing... ;-)
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Okay, so...
Can someone explain the Digico console lineup naming to me? Explain It Like I'm Five. In particular, a little idea of the history of these things would be helpful. Like which SDs came at which time/generation? And do they all use the same basic software? which ones are reaching EOL vs. which ones are "current"?
I know the S21/31 are the baby Digicos and don't use the same software as the SDs. And I know that the SD7 is the "big boy". But all the rest are just a fuzzy mess to me.
[I feel like there was a discussion of this sometime fairly recently, so a push in that direction would also be useful if this is a redundant question]
thanks!
S21 and S31 are named after the number of SLIDERS they have. It's the most sensible thing DiGiCo has ever done in its product marketing.
Quantum 225 and 338 are numbered for the screens and faders they contain.
The SD series numbering represents √MSRP/(channel count-number of faders and knobs). This was done to simplify ordering.
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AFAIK the SD12 came out in 2018 sometime. The original SD line-up runs windows xp embedded and I believe the new new quantums are running Windows 10 embedded.
The quantum consoles have a new fpga, and I did hear that there was talk about the ability to upgrade a regular sd to quantum by changing the processing motherboard (or whatever cool sounding term digico calls it.)
Originally the SD series was named in the order in which they were released. The sd7 was released first, so its: sd7, sd8, sd9, sd10, and so on.. Until the sd5 came out and messed it all up.
I guess the boffins at digico went aah fuck it, we've messed it up anyway so lets just come up with something else.
Sent from my RMX1931 using Tapatalk
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The SD series numbering represents √MSRP/(channel count-number of faders and knobs). This was done to simplify ordering.
This is the first time I've heard this one. AFAIK it was SD(year it came out) for all except the SD5 which was released on the anniversary of the D5, and then the SD12 which was its own thing prior to the Quantum line.
To Brian's original question:
All SD desks are "current". All run the same WinXP-based OS and software.* There is a piece of Windows software to convert so you can take a show file from any desk and put it on any other desk.** Updating a standard SD series desk to a B or T extension costs money, but can be done. Upgrading from the original ("Core 1") software to Core 2 costs money but greatly expanded the capabilities of the desk. With the exception of the SD7 and SD5, the rest of the SD desks are relatively done with the big updates as of the Core2 software release several years ago. They may see additional minor updates as firmware/software revisions happen, but the limiting factor is the internal FPGA chip (as I was told)
* - There are 'B' and 'T' software extensions available for some desks - Broadcast and Theatre, respectively. These enable different features/functions not available on the "standard" software
** - Obviously you can't take a 120 channel show and put it on an 80 channel desk. But it allows you to convert/trim to create your show file with minimal headache.
Quantum desks are "Next Gen" - new FPGA chip, new baseline OS. You can do a full engine swap on an SD7 or SD5 and get a Quantum 7 or Quantum 5, but those are the only desks able to do it as the engine is a removable chassis on the back - dual redundant engines in the case of the SD7/Q7. The Q338 and Q225 are fully new desks and derive their model nomenclature from Q(#of Screens)(# of Faders). The Q225 is cheating a little on that as the 2nd screen is optional external, but it's what they did. I don't *think* you would be able to upgrade the SD12 to a Quantum desk eventually (if they were to release a secret decoder ring), but I've never looked under the hood.
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Function-wise, differentiating between SD-series consoles is almost as fun as trying to figure out the name scheme, particularly in the middle of the line-up. Things are relatively easy at the extremes: the SD11 is the only single-bank console (it's rack-mountable), and the SD7 and SD5 are the giants with three banks of faders and three screens (although telling them apart can be a bit tricky; both can have the B software, but only the SD7 can have the T software, and only the SD7 has a compatible "extender" that adds two more screens and banks of faders).
Everything else is in between these two extremes, representing a constellation of four similar-but-not-identical consoles. The SD12 is the only SD-series console with two screens (and, IIRC, the only one running Windows 7e under the hood); all the rest (except for the big ones) are single-screen-only. The SD9 is the only one with a screen that doesn't line up with any fader banks (and if that sounds confusing, that's because it is). The SD8 and SD10 both come in both 2-fader-bank and 3-fader-bank versions, but only SD10 can have the B or T software installed like the SD9 (the SD12 is T software but not B, which is the reverse of the SD11); the SD10 is also the only mid-level SD console that can have a fully-redundant mix engine added.
All clear now? :D
{...} The SD series numbering represents √MSRP/(channel count-number of faders and knobs). This was done to simplify ordering.
You really oughta warn people before you say stuff like this. I'm glad I wasn't taking a sip of anything when I read it! ;D
-Russ
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Hey lettuce not forget the SD11 vs SD11i =)
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Hey lettuce not forget the SD11 vs SD11i =)
That's actually a good one (particularly since I believe it's actually the SD11i, not the base-model SD11, that has the B software available for it).
The other thing to note about the SD11 (and -i) is that it's the only SD-series console with more than 8x8 analogue IO onboard. I believe it's also the only SD-series console to come from the factory with only one PSU in it (although a second, external one can be added).
-Russ
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Okay, so...
Can someone explain the Digico console lineup naming to me? Explain It Like I'm Five. In particular, a little idea of the history of these things would be helpful. Like which SDs came at which time/generation? And do they all use the same basic software? which ones are reaching EOL vs. which ones are "current"?
I know the S21/31 are the baby Digicos and don't use the same software as the SDs. And I know that the SD7 is the "big boy". But all the rest are just a fuzzy mess to me.
[I feel like there was a discussion of this sometime fairly recently, so a push in that direction would also be useful if this is a redundant question]
thanks!
Having read through the responses so far, I think the short answer is "No" :P
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Hey lettuce not forget the SD11 vs SD11i =)
I'm not sure about Canada, but you can't even buy the "plain" SD11 in the US - only the SD11i or SD11B. If there's a regular SD11 in the US, it's been "imported" from somewhere else.
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I'm not sure about Canada, but you can't even buy the "plain" SD11 in the US - only the SD11i or SD11B. If there's a regular SD11 in the US, it's been "imported" from somewhere else.
Yeah, SD11 has been dropped from the dealer PL and just he SD11i and SD11iB remain. More channels and stuff. The 11i had the Core 2 upgrade which is now standard on everything. I'm sure it's just coincidental that the SD11i with a D rack costs just a bit less than a QL1 with Rio 3224. . .
An even more amazing coincidence is the Quantum 225 with a stage box is very similar in price to a QL5 with Rio. . .and now has packages with an automixer card.
So many coincidences.
You really oughta warn people before you say stuff like this. I'm glad I wasn't taking a sip of anything when I read it! ;D
-Russ
Just to clarify, MSRP must be expressed in £ Sterling or the math doesn't come out right.
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Huh, looks like I was wrong about one thing: the SD7 can be optioned with over 24x24 local I/O (although I think some of it has to be AES3 to max it out). I wonder if the SD7's local I/O (or the SD11's, for that matter) comes with the same caveats as that of the rest of the SD-series?
Yeah, SD11 has been dropped from the dealer PL and just he SD11i and SD11iB remain. {...}
So, you can't buy an SD11, but you can still buy an SD8? Why? Are they that much cheaper than an SD10?
{...} Just to clarify, MSRP must be expressed in £ Sterling or the math doesn't come out right.
Right, and it's also important to use the pre-Core-2 channel counts.
-Russ
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So, you can't buy an SD11, but you can still buy an SD8? Why? Are they that much cheaper than an SD10?
Looking at the surface only, an SD8 and SD12-72 both cost about the same and both are 30% less than an SD10. . .then the options start. . .
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Brian -
No, there is no simple & elegant logic to the range of DiGiCo SD offerings. That horse has left the barn. What I will say is that they are the most updated and updateable desks. Where DiGiCo goes the rest of the bunch seem to follow: more screens, more knobs, more I/O. They were never walk-up-and-go consoles for engineers du jour, but are extremely malleable for evolving professional uses.
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Looking at the surface only, an SD8 and SD12-72 both cost about the same and both are 30% less than an SD10. . .then the options start. . .
...which, I suppose, serves as an excellent reminder that the only thing more confusing than the SD-series naming conventions is their pricing structure. :P
-Russ
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Where do the S21 and S31 configure in the Digico lineup? Are they actually the same quality as their other offerings or are they just there to compete with lower cost boards like the X32/M32, AllenHeath, Soundcraft etc, and perform on a similar level?
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Where do the S21 and S31 configure in the Digico lineup? Are they actually the same quality as their other offerings or are they just there to compete with lower cost boards like the X32/M32, AllenHeath, Soundcraft etc, and perform on a similar level?
From a signal path standpoint, the S-series are nearly indistinguishable from the rest of the DiGiCo lineup. They use the same I/O (and you can do headamp sharing and gain-tracking across lines), and they use an FPGA-based signal processor that is very similar to that of the SD series.
The big differences between S and SD are in the packaging and UI. The S-series have significant on-board analogue I/O, a Linux-based multi-touch interface (that has very little in common with the SD-series interface), and a somewhat-simplified routing structure (plus a couple other processing limitations). They also lack the redundant power supplies of the SD-series (except the SD11) and don't have the same physical size and heft (an SD12, with its 26 faders and limited onboard I/O, weighs roughly twice as much as an S21 with 5 fewer faders but significantly more XLRs on the back). This means they are somewhat less powerful (and, arguably, reliable) than an SD-series console, but also probably a bit more user- (and walk-up-) friendly (and certainly a lot cheaper).
Ultimately it depends on what you mean by "quality": the S-series doesn't have nearly the same physical robustness as the SD-series, but from an audio quality standpoint they should sound basically the same.
-Russ
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From a signal path standpoint, the S-series are nearly indistinguishable from the rest of the DiGiCo lineup. They use the same I/O (and you can do headamp sharing and gain-tracking across lines), and they use an FPGA-based signal processor that is very similar to that of the SD series.
The big differences between S and SD are in the packaging and UI. The S-series have significant on-board analogue I/O, a Linux-based multi-touch interface (that has very little in common with the SD-series interface), and a somewhat-simplified routing structure (plus a couple other processing limitations). They also lack the redundant power supplies of the SD-series (except the SD11) and don't have the same physical size and heft (an SD12, with its 26 faders and limited onboard I/O, weighs roughly twice as much as an S21 with 5 fewer faders but significantly more XLRs on the back). This means they are somewhat less powerful (and, arguably, reliable) than an SD-series console, but also probably a bit more user- (and walk-up-) friendly (and certainly a lot cheaper).
Ultimately it depends on what you mean by "quality": the S-series doesn't have nearly the same physical robustness as the SD-series, but from an audio quality standpoint they should sound basically the same.
-Russ
Thanks for that info
Reason I'm asking is that I may finally get some money to spend on my rig next year and 1st on my list is replacing the X32's. I'll never get enough of a budget for an SD10 etc, but a pair of S31's might be doable. I'm wondering if that would fulfill some of the riders I get. 3 weeks ago I had to rent 2 Digicos. They sent an SD10 and a Quantum for monitors. Nice but not cheap. This Sat I'm renting an Avid Profile and I'm sure I'll be getting SL6 requests in the future.
Digico's seem to be the most rider-friendly board in this area so I'm curious as to whether S21/31 would be acceptable for bands that ask for Digico/Avid and need up to 40 inputs.
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Thanks to all for the replies. It has been informative.
I will say that I'm very happy that I am NOT five, because it appears that explaining this for five year old me would in fact be impossible.
So I've got a couple of takeaways so far.
1. SD consoles were basically named for the year they were released. Which I will go on record as saying is really really dumb. Naming something with a numbering convention that has NO bearing on its functionality just defies any and all logical thinking. But there it is. At least I see where it came from. Is this where the D1 and D5 got their names?
2. I can derive some reasonable sense of where these consoles sit relative to each other by simply looking at the Digico website and seeing how the consoles are listed on the products page. They are clearly listed more or less from most capable to least capable, with I'm sure some key overlaps. But close enough. That is helpful for me to understand what it means when someone says they've got an SD5 at FOH and an SD10 at Monitors or whatever.
3. Understanding that the SD5 was named as an homage to the D5 helps me understand this Unicorn of Naming. I'm not sure given my experience with the D5 that I would want to be doing an Homage to said console but I digress...
4. The new naming scheme is based on faders and screens. I guess this makes sense. ish. Still doesn't seem to bear any direct relationship with actual capability, which would kinda be nice. But whatever.
5. S-series desks are different beasts. But I kinda knew that. Still good to have that documented somewhere
Thanks to all for the info, and I welcome and more that can be added. I'm especially interested in overlap between console models as well anyone's crystal ball with regards to which desks are expected to be retired first/soon. I know some of that was referenced above with the reference to "core 2" software likely being the last step for a number of the desks, but anything anyone would like to add would be great.
Thanks to all for the attempt to educate me. It really is very much appreciated as I really truly have not understood the Digico naming thing. now I at least know that not understanding it is actually understandable.
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Thanks for that info
Reason I'm asking is that I may finally get some money to spend on my rig next year and 1st on my list is replacing the X32's. I'll never get enough of a budget for an SD10 etc, but a pair of S31's might be doable. I'm wondering if that would fulfill some of the riders I get. 3 weeks ago I had to rent 2 Digicos. They sent an SD10 and a Quantum for monitors. Nice but not cheap. This Sat I'm renting an Avid Profile and I'm sure I'll be getting SL6 requests in the future.
Digico's seem to be the most rider-friendly board in this area so I'm curious as to whether S21/31 would be acceptable for bands that ask for Digico/Avid and need up to 40 inputs.
A S series console would not be an acceptable substitute for a SD desk in most people’s eyes. If I was expecting a SD I’d be pretty unhappy if someone substituted in a S.
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{...}
4. The new naming scheme is based on faders and screens. I guess this makes sense. ish. Still doesn't seem to bear any direct relationship with actual capability, which would kinda be nice. But whatever.
{...}
My impression is that, outside of some very specific applications, the consoles' actually capabilities aren't typically much of a limiting factor in the DiGiCo line-up. For example, outside of the 48-input S-series, DiGiCo currently doesn't sell a console with fewer than 72 inputs, 24 aux/buses, or a 12x8 matrix section.
{...} I'm especially interested in overlap between console models {}
If you're looking for a console with two fader banks and at least 72 channels, the SD8-24, SD9, SD10-24, SD12 (any version), and Quantum 225 are all suitable. If you're looking for a console with three fader banks and at least 120 inputs, the SD8, SD10, SD5 (any version), SD7, Quantum 338, Quantum 5, and Quantum 7 are all suitable. (How's that for overlap!)
{...} anyone's crystal ball with regards to which desks are expected to be retired first/soon {...}
The SD8 and SD9 are the oldest SD-series consoles still running exclusively on their original hardware (and, with their cheaper price-point, have probably been poaching SD10, SD12, and maybe even Quantum sales), but the SD10 and SD11 aren't really any much newer, so a piecemeal EOL of the SD-series seems unlikely at this point (save, perhaps, for the much newer, and still ostensibly under active development, SD12). My guess is that DiGiCo will probably fill out their Quantum line-up a bit more before they start looking to discontinue the SD-series (assuming they can still get the parts to manufacture a 13-plus-year-old console, that is).
-Russ
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A S series console would not be an acceptable substitute for a SD desk in most people’s eyes. If I was expecting a SD I’d be pretty unhappy if someone substituted in a S.
Nobody likes surprises in audio. But if you had an SD desk in your rider and I contacted you to say that we had an S31, would you be OK with that?
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Hi,
I also thought that the SD series console names are derived from the year that they came out, it can seem that way but the name is derived from the order sequence in which they came out -
SD7 (2007) was the first of the series and it was the first that pioneered the new FPGA technology which is used in all SD, Quantum and S consoles. This console has the most channel count than all the others, more knobs and faders and more screens (it has 7 screens - 3 touch control screens, 3 screens for the metering and one small video screen). This console is still one of the most demanded in large productions.
SD8 (2008) - 1 screen, 37 faders
SD9 (2009) - 1 screen, 24 faders
SD10 (2010) - almost the same console as SD8 - 1 screen, 37 faders
SD11 - AFAIK also came out in 2010 - 1 screen, 12 faders
SD5 - I think it came out in 2012 or 2013. It is named as a homage to the D5 as someone mentioned here. 3 screens, 37 faders
SD12 (2017) - 2 screens, 26 faders
Then came the Quantum versions of the SD7 and SD5 (which are now named Quantum 7 and Quantum 5)
After that you have the Quantum 338 (2020) - 3 screens, 38 faders and the Quantum 225 (2021) - 1 screen, 25 faders
Regarding the rider acceptability of the S series - you cannot convert SD console files to the S series. I don't believe that if someone asks for a DiGiCo console, he will accept a S console instead of an SD. At least that is how it is where I come from, and I believe that is the same everywhere.
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Nobody likes surprises in audio. But if you had an SD desk in your rider and I contacted you to say that we had an S31, would you be OK with that?
Probably not, the desk UI's are completely and radically different and show files aren't compatible. AFAIK there is no simple way to convert from one to the other, either.
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Probably not, the desk UI's are completely and radically different and show files aren't compatible. AFAIK there is no simple way to convert from one to the other, either.
Thanks. Think I'll scrap that idea. I'll get a board that fits my budget that I'll use and rent boards for the big boys.
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Thanks. Think I'll scrap that idea. I'll get a board that fits my budget that I'll use and rent boards for the big boys.
Take a look at the Allen and Heath Dlive C series a LOT of functionality and easily scaled up and down to suit your needs.
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Nobody likes surprises in audio. But if you had an SD desk in your rider and I contacted you to say that we had an S31, would you be OK with that?
I would modify the other poster's "probably not" answer to "not a snowballs chance in hell."
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Nobody likes surprises in audio. But if you had an SD desk in your rider and I contacted you to say that we had an S31, would you be OK with that?
That would depend on why I had speced the SD. I personally just strongly prefer the workflow and flexibility of the SD desks. I haven’t been on a S in a few years but my last experience left me very wanting compared to the SD. It’s been long enough that I can’t remember the specifics.
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I would modify the other poster's "probably not" answer to "not a snowballs chance in hell."
I was being generous. I suspect that it would probably be better to sub an M32 for an SD series. The visiting engineer probably has a show file for that.
DiGiCo S series gets no love, even though it's a nice console at a pretty good price point.
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I was being generous. I suspect that it would probably be better to sub an M32 for an SD series. The visiting engineer probably has a show file for that.
DiGiCo S series gets no love, even though it's a nice console at a pretty good price point.
Digico S sounds pretty good, a lot better than the A&H offerings mentioned earlier.
But the UI is «interesting»….
I owned a Digico SD for years, the transition to S31 was not easy the first time I meet one on the road.
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That would depend on why I had speced the SD. I personally just strongly prefer the workflow and flexibility of the SD desks. I haven’t been on a S in a few years but my last experience left me very wanting compared to the SD. It’s been long enough that I can’t remember the specifics.
I'm starting to think that an S31 would have a better chance at being accepted than any other board in that price range. Midas Pro series and Profiles are old. Never seen A&H on a rider here. I see "no Midas M Series" on riders. Maybe a Yamaha CL or QL series?
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I'm starting to think that an S31 would have a better chance at being accepted than any other board in that price range. Midas Pro series and Profiles are old. Never seen A&H on a rider here. I see "no Midas M Series" on riders. Maybe a Yamaha CL or QL series?
My perception is that the S21/31 suffer from the fact that they have like a dozen older brothers that are all tall, good looking, and extremely successful. Meanwhile they're the "redheaded step child" that's relegated to the kids table at all the family gatherings.
Think about it. Yamaha has basically the PM line, the CL/QL line, and the TF line. 3 very different price points and customers with little to no overlap. A&H has dLive, Avantis, and SQ. Again pretty easy to sort out. Other manufacturers have similar lineups. But Digico has 14 SD consoles that are all somewhat interchangeable with a TON of overlap, and then these two little guys at the bottom of the line that, at least on the surface, have basically nothing in common with their big brothers. No wonder no one takes them seriously.
I used an s31 recently and it was fine, but definitely felt like a "cheap" console. That's not a bad thing necessarily. I've made a lot of money using X/M32 consoles. But yeah, there's no way that anyone wanting an SD is gonna go for an S. Smaller/Older SD than they want? maybe. But yes, if you want a lower end console that will pass the "Rider" test, even as a distant third choice, you'd likely do better with an M32. Nobody "likes" them, but nearly everyone below A-list has a show file for them.
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I'm starting to think that an S31 would have a better chance at being accepted than any other board in that price range. Midas Pro series and Profiles are old. Never seen A&H on a rider here. I see "no Midas M Series" on riders. Maybe a Yamaha CL or QL series?
If I needed a console "right now" I would pick up a used Midas Pro series. Still one of the best sounding consoles out there.
In fact I did, got myself a Pro2 and a Pro6 during the last year for way less money than buying anything else.
If you get one with the right I/O, you can use that later on if you wish to get a HD-96.
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Always get great responses here. Looks like board rentals are in my future and I'll upgrade to something that I like and fits the budget.
Brian, you're right about the M32. Everyone has a show file for M/X32. In the meantime, let's see what new offerings are available in the new year. A new "M32" model might be what I need.
I won't be getting a console right now Helge. We're getting new owners so I'll have to see what they'll throw at me after the dust settles. I really like Midas boards but I've yet to see one on a rider list that comes across my desk at this venue. But since I'll be renting rider boards, I might consider a Pro2 or better.
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Always get great responses here. Looks like board rentals are in my future and I'll upgrade to something that I like and fits the budget.
Brian, you're right about the M32. Everyone has a show file for M/X32. In the meantime, let's see what new offerings are available in the new year. A new "M32" model might be what I need.
I won't be getting a console right now Helge. We're getting new owners so I'll have to see what they'll throw at me after the dust settles. I really like Midas boards but I've yet to see one on a rider list that comes across my desk at this venue. But since I'll be renting rider boards, I might consider a Pro2 or better.
Be sure to ask your local MT dealer about the B-Stock specials running on Midas Pro desks right now. They are being blown out to make up fr a lack of M32's
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Be sure to ask your local MT dealer about the B-Stock specials running on Midas Pro desks right now. They are being blown out to make up fr a lack of M32's
Indeed! That offer came by here as well. Pro2-TP for ~$8.5k? We passed.
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Digico S sounds pretty good, a lot better than the A&H offerings mentioned earlier.
But the UI is «interesting»….
I owned a Digico SD for years, the transition to S31 was not easy the first time I meet one on the road.
Really? At this point how can anything sound "a lot" better, or even different, than anything else. Especially between two consoles that share a parent company and ostensibly a good chunk of r&d and hardware? I've been on both, albeit not at the same time. I'd be interested to hear the basis for this conclusion.
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Really? At this point how can anything sound "a lot" better, or even different, than anything else. Especially between two consoles that share a parent company and ostensibly a good chunk of r&d and hardware? I've been on both, albeit not at the same time. I'd be interested to hear the basis for this conclusion.
Try mixing a few shows on them in controlled listening environments and listen to the basic operation of EQ and comps. :) (Not talking about reverbs here, that has it's own can of worms).
To my ears, they behave differently, and they are voiced differently.
Good/bad? Depends on your application.
Digico SD, as an example, has a super clean EQ. Perfect if you want it, I just find it plain boring for mixing music.
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Everyone has a show file for M/X32.
Used to say that about the M7CL..
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Really? At this point how can anything sound "a lot" better, or even different, than anything else. Especially between two consoles that share a parent company and ostensibly a good chunk of r&d and hardware? I've been on both, albeit not at the same time. I'd be interested to hear the basis for this conclusion.
3 weeks ago I rented an SD10 for the band. The difference between the sound of trax played through that board compared to what I was used to hearing through my X32 was night and day. That's why I'm looking for a new console now. I really don't want to use an X32 again.
I just got a Profile delivered for this Saturday's band. Hoping to find some time to play with it. I'll probably have to re eq the mains as they're setup with the X32.
The BE has an SL6 and no other options in his rider but he's good with the Profile so that saved us a few bucks. Hoping Profiles/SC48's are still acceptable for a few more years.
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Try mixing a few shows on them in controlled listening environments and listen to the basic operation of EQ and comps. :) (Not talking about reverbs here, that has it's own can of worms).
To my ears, they behave differently, and they are voiced differently.
Good/bad? Depends on your application.
Digico SD, as an example, has a super clean EQ. Perfect if you want it, I just find it plain boring for mixing music.
Sure, I'll buy all of that. There are certainly personal preferences that may steer an individual one way or the other. But to say that an s21/s31 sounds "a lot" better than a d-live (insert any professional desk du jour) is sensational. Maybe I just don't have the golden ears, as I'm sure my mix sucked equally on both/all of them.
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Sure, I'll buy all of that. There are certainly personal preferences that may steer an individual one way or the other. But to say that an s21/s31 sounds "a lot" better than a d-live (insert any professional desk du jour) is sensational. Maybe I just don't have the golden ears, as I'm sure my mix sucked equally on both/all of them.
To my ears, d:live has all the features you want, but not all the sound quality.
Mixed hundreds of shows on them, can make it do what I need it to do, but it doesn’t get any praise for it’s sound quality. I find it pretty meh, very boring and uninspiring to mix on.
S31 OTOH was a very pleasant suprise once I got comfortable with the GUI.
Not a SD, but not bad at all.
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Thanks for that info
Reason I'm asking is that I may finally get some money to spend on my rig next year and 1st on my list is replacing the X32's. I'll never get enough of a budget for an SD10 etc, but a pair of S31's might be doable. I'm wondering if that would fulfill some of the riders I get. 3 weeks ago I had to rent 2 Digicos. They sent an SD10 and a Quantum for monitors. Nice but not cheap. This Sat I'm renting an Avid Profile and I'm sure I'll be getting SL6 requests in the future.
Digico's seem to be the most rider-friendly board in this area so I'm curious as to whether S21/31 would be acceptable for bands that ask for Digico/Avid and need up to 40 inputs.
I can't imagine it would be, it's totally different. Let me ask you this because we are also looking at consoles. Has anyone ever called you and asked you to rent a Digico? Have you ever had to cross rent one to fill a rider? One of our close competitors we cross rent a ton of gear from has a pair of Avid Profile's and three mix engines. We get a great rate on them and nobody complains. If you shop well I think you could get a decent surface and a loaded Mix rack for under 10k. It's old though so back to the discussion.
If someone just had their heart set on a DiGiCo 8th day is right down the street and I can get anything I want, know it's been taken care of, updates are done right and it will be at the dock within 30 minutes of a call. I can make a few bucks and move on.
Going back to our purchase, most of the time we are not filling riders. Bigger consoles are really nice on festivals with quick changes. I think the Allen and Heath C series of the D-Live fill the bill, the only issue is they are not dual power supply. So maybe the big bod D-Live then a SQ-7 for monitors. What I probably will end up with is the Aventis and the SQ and a selection of interface boxes.
Very interested in your selection process and how it progresses.
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I can't imagine it would be, it's totally different. Let me ask you this because we are also looking at consoles. Has anyone ever called you and asked you to rent a Digico? Have you ever had to cross rent one to fill a rider? One of our close competitors we cross rent a ton of gear from has a pair of Avid Profile's and three mix engines. We get a great rate on them and nobody complains. If you shop well I think you could get a decent surface and a loaded Mix rack for under 10k. It's old though so back to the discussion.
If someone just had their heart set on a DiGiCo 8th day is right down the street and I can get anything I want, know it's been taken care of, updates are done right and it will be at the dock within 30 minutes of a call. I can make a few bucks and move on.
Going back to our purchase, most of the time we are not filling riders. Bigger consoles are really nice on festivals with quick changes. I think the Allen and Heath C series of the D-Live fill the bill, the only issue is they are not dual power supply. So maybe the big bod D-Live then a SQ-7 for monitors. What I probably will end up with is the Aventis and the SQ and a selection of interface boxes.
Very interested in your selection process and how it progresses.
I'm not seeing anything that excites me in my budget. Right now I'm leaning toward the S31 but it's at least 5 years old. As of now, I'll just keep using the X32 and rent consoles for the riders. We don't do many shows here and the ones coming up next year will all need rentals.
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To my ears, d:live has all the features you want, but not all the sound quality.
Mixed hundreds of shows on them, can make it do what I need it to do, but it doesn’t get any praise for it’s sound quality. I find it pretty meh, very boring and uninspiring to mix on.
The guy that owns the soundco that dropped off a Profile yesterday was raving about the sound of the A&H boards. He said that he couldn't afford the new SL6's so he's bought some A&H consoles. Not sure about the model. He still has a few Profiles and SC48's so I can rent them from him if their acceptable to the BE's. Personally, I like the Profile.
But I am curious as why you find it boring and uninspiring to mix on. Those are qualities you don't hear when describing a console.
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The guy that owns the soundco that dropped off a Profile yesterday was raving about the sound of the A&H boards. He said that he couldn't afford the new SL6's so he's bought some A&H consoles. Not sure about the model. He still has a few Profiles and SC48's so I can rent them from him if their acceptable to the BE's. Personally, I like the Profile.
But I am curious as why you find it boring and uninspiring to mix on. Those are qualities you don't hear when describing a console.
In lack of a better term, I’ll call it «very corporate sounding».
You want something that sounds clean, adds no character on it’s own and with a bit of air on top?
D:Live is your desk :)
I think the D:Live is very much like Yamaha CL, but the CL can add some character on it’s own when you dive into the premium rack. Haven’t found anyting similar on the D:Live yet.
Except the Bus Comp (SSL clone) that came with one of the later fw upgrades, I rather like that.
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You want something that sounds clean, adds no character on it’s own and with a bit of air on top?
That's what *I* generally prefer!
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That's what *I* generally prefer!
^^^ This. I want the console to mix the audio. If I want my audio colored, I will use other tools to accomplish unless I want only the same color on everything.
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I think the D:Live is very much like Yamaha CL, but the CL can add some character on it’s own when you dive into the premium rack. Haven’t found anyting similar on the D:Live yet.
You haven't tried the various preamp modelling functions? You can completely change the channel character using them.
https://youtu.be/1Ejh3jwbdnw?t=60 (https://youtu.be/1Ejh3jwbdnw?t=60)
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That's what *I* generally prefer!
I get that, I prefer the same thing for corporate stuff :)
But for mixing music, I just find it boring.
On a SD8 today, sounds very clean (and good), just wish the console had a bit more character in the eq so I could get some character into a couple of inputs.
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You haven't tried the various preamp modelling functions? You can completely change the channel character using them.
https://youtu.be/1Ejh3jwbdnw?t=60 (https://youtu.be/1Ejh3jwbdnw?t=60)
Thanks for the tip, I’ll have a look at them next time :)
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On a SD8 today, sounds very clean (and good), just wish the console had a bit more character in the eq so I could get some character into a couple of inputs.
Typing with tongue in cheek here, but by "character" do you mean "distortion"?
Generally if something is "boring" then I've probably chosen the wrong mic.
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Typing with tongue in cheek here, but by "character" do you mean "distortion"?
Yes, in the most general sense of the word, meaning "a change from the original"... Still see distressors in outboard racks - a distortion/harmonic generator (I believe - never used one). Many people love Silk on preamps and transformer modelling, either via Neve products or plugins. It's a saturation and eq coloration effect that many like.
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Typing with tongue in cheek here, but by "character" do you mean "distortion"?
Generally if something is "boring" then I've probably chosen the wrong mic.
I don’t think so, but I could be wrong :)
I generally don’t like distortion plugins or preamp emulations, but I do like a well designed preamp with it’s own character running within it’s non-distorting range.
As an example, I’ve never been a fan of running Midas consoles in the red so they distort, but I do like the character of their eq.
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I don’t think so, but I could be wrong :)
I generally don’t like distortion plugins or preamp emulations, but I do like a well designed preamp with it’s own character running within it’s non-distorting range.
As an example, I’ve never been a fan of running Midas consoles in the red so they distort, but I do like the character of their eq.
That "character" is usually some sort non-linear property; ie harmonic distortion/compression of some sort. Certain types of distortion can be incredibly pleasing, and actually add detail and clarity in many instances. Think odd vs even harmonics etc.
Obviously some "preamps" or "vintage EQ's" or "ACME-Box-O-Colour" are more heavy handed while others are quite subtle.
As an audio example check out the Kazrog True Iron or Kush plugins (REDDI, Omega, Blyss). While these plugins are not oriented towards live sound, and while they do have some more extreme settings, they also can be utilized in some very subtle pleasing manners.
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You haven't tried the various preamp modelling functions? You can completely change the channel character using them.
https://youtu.be/1Ejh3jwbdnw?t=60 (https://youtu.be/1Ejh3jwbdnw?t=60)
Tested them today, not my cup of tea.
Either no audible difference or just distortion to my ears depending on what settings I dialed in.