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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Chris Grimshaw on May 11, 2018, 09:27:05 AM
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Hi all,
So I've been wondering about this. I see a lot of people going for 15" stage monitors because "the drummer likes some kick", or "the keyboard/bassist needs some low end". For a good majority of stages, I'm not convinced that a 15" is really required, because you can do this with four of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXuV-Cl0hmI which was 85dBC-slow at around 280'.
Putting all of that energy on a stage just seems crazy to me.
I get that when you've got a 16-box hang per side and a big stage to play with, a couple of 15"s will help keep some "punch" when the artist moves away from the monitors. My FOH would be a sidefill for those gigs.
For LAB Lounge sized stages? I just don't think it's something that's needed.
The monitors I have right now are okay, and a step up from what most bands are used to. I would, however, like to replace them with something that manages more sound per cubic foot. I used a 12" coaxial (whose cone has around 2mm of linear movement before it's just distorting) for a drummer recently, with the rest of the band on 8" coaxials, and the drummer was happy with how much kick he could get in the monitor, and actually asked me to drop the level a little during soundcheck.
So, how much stage monitor do we really need?
I'm starting to think a good 12" should do it - after all, wedding DJs with a sub + column system have enough low end with a 12" per side to fill a small dancefloor, and we're looking to provide enough grunt for someone that's within 10' of the cabinet.
If a good 12" can do it, a pair of 8"s should get very close. If you can make one of those 8"s coaxial and still work with the other, you've got a nice low-profile monitor that should be fine giving the drummer some kick.
Curious about what you all think. Are 12"s the new 15", or do we increase levels to use up the available headroom anyway?
Chris
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Chris,
I think it depends on how much you spend. I'd rather have a nice 12 over a cheap 15 any day. However, with that being said, I used to have a Yamaha Club series 15 that drummers just loved. And, let's face it, that is kind of low end. But apparently, good for a "lounge-level" gig.
We use JBL VP series and they have 12's and they beat the snot out of Almost Every 15 we've put it up against. They cost us what us a lot of money though; $2k each maybe. I don't remember. Recently, I filled in for a friend and he had 5- 15's Turbosound Somethings for monitors and they just ran out of gas. It was a larger outdoor stage, I think it was 16' deep and 20' wide. I wasn't really impressed when they stated to break up. The band was very understanding and professional enough to lower their levels. Yes, you read that correctly!!
Just my 2 cents.
Scott
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Chris,
I think it depends on how much you spend. I'd rather have a nice 12 over a cheap 15 any day. However, with that being said, I used to have a Yamaha Club series 15 that drummers just loved. And, let's face it, that is kind of low end. But apparently, good for a "lounge-level" gig.
We use JBL VP series and they have 12's and they beat the snot out of Almost Every 15 we've put it up against. They cost us what us a lot of money though; $2k each maybe. I don't remember. Recently, I filled in for a friend and he had 5- 15's Turbosound Somethings for monitors and they just ran out of gas. It was a larger outdoor stage, I think it was 16' deep and 20' wide. I wasn't really impressed when they stated to break up. The band was very understanding and professional enough to lower their levels. Yes, you read that correctly!!
Just my 2 cents.
Scott
Turbosound IQ10s get plenty loud for stage monitoring. They simply do not run out of gas.
Not sure I'd put a ton of kick thru it, but you get the point. If I needed kick, I would have full confidence in the IQ12.
The Turbosounds you were using must've been a lower end model.
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Hi all,
So I've been wondering about this. I see a lot of people going for 15" stage monitors because "the drummer likes some kick", or "the keyboard/bassist needs some low end". For a good majority of stages, I'm not convinced that a 15" is really required, because you can do this with four of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXuV-Cl0hmI which was 85dBC-slow at around 280'.
Putting all of that energy on a stage just seems crazy to me.
I get that when you've got a 16-box hang per side and a big stage to play with, a couple of 15"s will help keep some "punch" when the artist moves away from the monitors. My FOH would be a sidefill for those gigs.
For LAB Lounge sized stages? I just don't think it's something that's needed.
The monitors I have right now are okay, and a step up from what most bands are used to. I would, however, like to replace them with something that manages more sound per cubic foot. I used a 12" coaxial (whose cone has around 2mm of linear movement before it's just distorting) for a drummer recently, with the rest of the band on 8" coaxials, and the drummer was happy with how much kick he could get in the monitor, and actually asked me to drop the level a little during soundcheck.
So, how much stage monitor do we really need?
I'm starting to think a good 12" should do it - after all, wedding DJs with a sub + column system have enough low end with a 12" per side to fill a small dancefloor, and we're looking to provide enough grunt for someone that's within 10' of the cabinet.
If a good 12" can do it, a pair of 8"s should get very close. If you can make one of those 8"s coaxial and still work with the other, you've got a nice low-profile monitor that should be fine giving the drummer some kick.
Curious about what you all think. Are 12"s the new 15", or do we increase levels to use up the available headroom anyway?
Chris
This is pretty subjective, and I think we would all agree that what's 'necessary' by any objective auditory standard doesn't always jive with what's 'required' to make the talent happy.
Here's a look from two directions:
1. OSHA's 8-hour exposure limit is 90dBA, with a 5dBA exchange rate, meaning you can be exposed to 95dBA for 4 hours or 100dBA for 2 hours and have the same cumulative exposure. Based on a two-hour show, any monitor that can produce at least 100dBA should be plenty adequate.
2. The function of a monitor is to give the performer feedback. For this to work, the monitor must be able to produce more level than the background noise the performer is competing against. For sake of argument, let's call it 10dB more than background. I have measured snare and cymbal volume at the drummer's head position at north of 120dBA fast. Based on this number, a drum wedge would need to be able to produce at least 130dBA fast to compete.
So, the obvious answer is to get a speaker capable of competing with 120+dBA ambient noise but limiting the performer's exposure to 100dBA. :)
I don't work with bands that are ridiculously loud so YMMV, but I've never had trouble making the talent happy with any reasonable powered speaker. Arguably, monitor clarity is more important than volume. Louder mush doesn't fix the issue, while clear-sounding monitors will be functional at a much lower volume. The JBL SRX812p is a great monitor wedge.
I've commented on this before, but I have never in my life owned a 15" box. Ever. I've had lots of 10"s and 12"s and 18"s, but never a 15". I don't think I'm missing out.
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Chris,
I think it depends on how much you spend. I'd rather have a nice 12 over a cheap 15 any day. However, with that being said, I used to have a Yamaha Club series 15 that drummers just loved. And, let's face it, that is kind of low end. But apparently, good for a "lounge-level" gig.
We use JBL VP series and they have 12's and they beat the snot out of Almost Every 15 we've put it up against. They cost us what us a lot of money though; $2k each maybe. I don't remember. Recently, I filled in for a friend and he had 5- 15's Turbosound Somethings for monitors and they just ran out of gas. It was a larger outdoor stage, I think it was 16' deep and 20' wide. I wasn't really impressed when they stated to break up. The band was very understanding and professional enough to lower their levels. Yes, you read that correctly!!
Just my 2 cents.
Scott
I have a small/local sound-for-hire business.
For "lounge level" gigs I, for one, think that many people "over do" monitors most of the time.
I have four (bi-amped) yorkville e152's that I have used as monitors on outdoor gigs. They sound great but they are a bit big and cumbersome to move around and find places for them in club situations.
Hey, if all you have are 15's, by all means, use what you have..
For the past several years I have been using bose passive 402's as monitors (the older series). For indoor club / hall band shows they work well.
They are light (17 lbs per cab) and have a transit kit that holds two cabs.
As a professional musician I can't tolerate loud monitors blaring at me on stage....I bring earplugs to those gigs..(keep a bag of 'em in my sax case).
At the lounge level: loud monitors.......why?
Kind of reminds me of going to McDonalds for a burger... You can purchase most sandwich meals in three sizes: regular/medium/large...The regular size is fine.
In the medium/large orders the sandwich is the same size but the fries/fountain drinks get larger & larger......the stuff that has the most "bad stuff" in it gets larger...
How many time have I regretted getting the large......lost count.
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Hi all,
I used a 12" coaxial (whose cone has around 2mm of linear movement before it's just distorting) for a drummer recently, with the rest of the band on 8" coaxials, and the drummer was happy with how much kick he could get in the monitor, and actually asked me to drop the level a little during soundcheck.
Chris
Chris,
Just curious, which 8 & 12" coaxial speakers were you using?
Most of what we are using is based on trial and error, and what we could afford at the time of purchase. But, we have had good luck using a 12" on drums, indoors and outdoors. Blues, Country, Southern Rock etc. Not sure how it would work for all genres. The ironic part is that we have been using the EV SX250, which is a 15", across the front and the EV TX1122FM, which is a 12", on drums. On the outdoor shows I did last year, I received some great feedback from the bands using this setup, including the drummers.
Of course, we are talking small crowds, less than 300 and small stages 16' x16' and 16' x 20'.
We have changed out the front SX250s at our venue and went to the QSC E10, which is a 10". The house sound guy has been bragging about the performance of the 10. Tonight I will be at the venue helping with a rocking Blues band and it will be my first experience with the E10s. I will report back. I am also going to try the E10s on an outdoor stage in June and see what happens.
I know the E10 is an inexpensive speaker, but for the money if it works out I won't complain.
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I use JBL SRX 712m's for my events. Nobody has ever complained about their sound quality or how loud they get. The occasional guy wants more and more in his wedge and then things can get carried away. I have also used on bigger stages the EV Xw12 & Xw15 and nobody complains about those also.
It's a matter of choice, opinion and budget.
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I recently bought a single Behringer EUROLIVE B205D for my band to play with. We have been using it here and there as one guy's or another's monitor.
We normally use ELX112Ps and I think we have a tendency to run them hot, because we can, not because we really need the volume which causes too much monitor wash out front.
I noticed when I do sound for for other bands the same thing happens: because we can make them loud and clear people sometimes want them louder than necessary or I will set them louder than necessary. Occasionally folks will tell me to back off my initial volume but I think I tend to make them too loud when I am doing my initial sound check before the band gets there.
Any way, back to the Behringer. I had never before used any other "hot spot" style monitor and I must say it works fine for me. Amazing how you can get so much volume at the mic but the guy next to you can't even really hear it. I imagine if we all used those our stage wash would be reduced by at least half or more. Of course it doesn't look cool, so...
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I'm converting to RCF NX-10SMA and 12SMA from dxr10s.
Very nice looking and sounding box.
Check out the review forum here in PSW.
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I also have the RCF NX-12SMA wedges. I do some work in church halls, smaller clubs and arts centers. They are more than enough. I upgraded from DSR112's which were nearly the same acoustically but I find the RCF's smoother sounding, certainly lighter and smaller size.
Even with relatively loud rock bands I have shut down the FOH during sound check and marveled at the amount of vocals I hear from the monitors, in the house.
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So I've been wondering about this. I see a lot of people going for 15" stage monitors because "the drummer likes some kick", or "the keyboard/bassist needs some low end".
As already mentioned, there has been a lot of development (read: improvement) in coaxial wedges - especially powered ones with internal DSP and their low profile, small footprint attributes are very attractive. IMHO, the RCF's are worth consideration. I'd like to spend some time with the upper series Turbosounds some day.
Carry a sub to stick underneath the drum wedge, if needed.
In the past, a lot of Riders spec'd 15" + 2" throat horns primarily to weed out consumer-grade stuff. Much less of an issue nowadays.
Dave
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My normal venue has five FBT StageMaxx 12MA coaxial monitors. Stunning clarity. The bands love them. It sure helps when I say I’d like to put a shield in front of their amps to stand next to them in stage with my tablet and say “Here. I can give you plenty of reference in your face. How much do you want”? I love to watch their eyes light up. As someone said above, great clarity can substantially offset the need for volume. I must say I just didn’t realize beforehand just how much high-quality monitors can reduce stage volume and thereby improve the overall sound of the room.
..db
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I must say I just didn’t realize beforehand just how much high-quality monitors can reduce stage volume and thereby improve the overall sound of the room.
..db
THAT is the key. I learned that back in the early 90's
I have 1/2 dozen steam powered 15/2 bi-amp wedges.
It is rare i am asked to turn up, once the night get's going.
i am often asked to turn down.....
Chris.
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I use JBL SRX 712m's for my events. Nobody has ever complained about their sound quality or how loud they get. The occasional guy wants more and more in his wedge and then things can get carried away. I have also used on bigger stages the EV Xw12 & Xw15 and nobody complains about those also.
It's a matter of choice, opinion and budget.
We have xW15 and they kick ass. It's a serious wedge on par with the Clair 12am in terms of acceptance by touring acts.
We own a bunch (around 20) of SRX712m and they're great little monitors (had national acts accept them when biamped) and make for nice speakers on sticks, too.
The hard part is training monitor mixing persons to ask "what is too loud in your mix" rather than "what do you need want more of?"
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Chris,
Just curious, which 8 & 12" coaxial speakers were you using?
I actually picked them up off eBay. MY-Audio - I haven't heard of them, either. Spotted them at a silly-cheap price, so bought one of the 8"s.
Plugged it in, it sounded pretty good. Much better than the price tag would ever imply. Opened it up, and it's a cast-frame driver with venting under the spider, poly caps, air-cored inductors and an actual HF protection circuit. HF unit has a titanium diaphragm, around 44mm diameter, on a 1" exit. Cabinets are 18mm plywood, too. Pretty much everything you'd want to see in a mid-level stage monitor.
So I bought more until they ran out. The 8"s were £35 each, and the 12"s £55. The ROI on them has been off the charts, but they're becoming the limiting factor in my system so it's getting towards time to move on - they're not the smoothest through the midrange, and low-frequency output is pretty limited. They'll probably see me through this year of festivals, though.
It's starting to sound to me like smaller stages can get by just fine with 12" monitors, even for the drummer. Thanks, all, for the input. I suppose if the drummer really isn't getting enough, putting another wedge at the other side of them would give another 6dB.
Edit - The EV 15" monitor is interesting, and the datasheet reveals a lot. Looks like that's something to aim at.
I'll get to work on designing some new monitors, then.
Rough plan so far - set off with a realistic 12" design, possibly simulating one of the 12" RCF coaxial drivers. Then, try to match it with a pair of 8"s, one coaxial.
Getting the two drivers to work together will be interesting - they might end up with slightly different bass reflex chambers to keep the frequency responses closely matched.
Any interest in watching the progress here?
Chris
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I'll get to work on designing some new monitors, then.
Rough plan so far - set off with a realistic 12" design, possibly simulating one of the 12" RCF coaxial drivers. Then, try to match it with a pair of 8"s, one coaxial.
Getting the two drivers to work together will be interesting - they might end up with slightly different bass reflex chambers to keep the frequency responses closely matched.
Any interest in watching the progress here?
Chris
You may want to have a look at the Smithers Wedge on soundforums. I'd post a link but I can't remember how to make them short.
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In my band we use electronic drums and the stage monitor for them is an HPR152. They sound much better than when I tried my vintage (RCF made) Mackie SRM450s as monitors, which otherwise make perfectly fine monitors for our vocals. In our case stage volume is still very low, it is just much better clarity with the 15. (Yes, I know comparing an HPR to an SRM450 is not exactly an apples to apples sort of thing.)
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You may want to have a look at the Smithers Wedge on soundforums. I'd post a link but I can't remember how to make them short.
http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,156617.0.html
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http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,156617.0.html
Thanks Tim.
Check out the DIY coaxial wedge here. (https://soundforums.net/community/threads/free-monitor-plan-12-coaxial-smithers-wedge-by-michael-smithers.3768/)
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I'm converting to RCF NX-10SMA and 12SMA from dxr10s.
Very nice looking and sounding box.
Check out the review forum here in PSW.
Are you selling the DXRs? :D
I use a DXS12 at the drummer outdoors to give them the impact they want. If a keyboard player wants "more" I'll run it though a sidefill. For lounge level things, even the music in the park things I do, the stage volume is usually enough and the wedges are vocal only. I'll put K10s as side fills and run a bit of people on the other side through the opposite side fill. But outside of a keyboard player who doesn't bother to bring their own stage amplification loud full stage monitors usually just add mud. Often there's enough wrap from the FOH subs that you don't need more low end along the front of the stage.
Many MI powered boxes are "discoized" with built in smiley face eq. I used to play in a venue that had a bunch of M-Pro415s for wedges. The house sound dood would set them up getting this big FM DJ sound. But when you started playing, you couldn't hear yourself sing. I've had similar experiences of things like EV ZLXs used as monitors.
Those RCFs look great. I wish someone (Yamaha?) would make something in between those and the Alto SXMs I have.
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Thanks Tim.
Check out the DIY coaxial wedge here. (https://soundforums.net/community/threads/free-monitor-plan-12-coaxial-smithers-wedge-by-michael-smithers.3768/)
I have 4 of them, probably spent $2k on everything including the drivers, crossovers, wood, hardware, Duratex and renting a table saw to make the cuts. They are great and take up fairly small space, but looking back I wish I'd spent the extra $ to buy the 12CXN76 B&C neo coaxials instead of the heavier 12FCX76 ferrite models.
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Size != Performance
My SRX812's seem to have as much low end as the prx615's they replaced.
If they were only for monitors maybe i could have got something even smaller for lounge gigs, but i have used them for anything from monitors, foh - with/without subs, guitaramp (axefx), delay speaker, step ladder, etc.
It's more important to me to have a versatile speaker that will do anything I ask of it.
So to the OP, figure out what you need then find a speaker the meets your needs.
Leave out speaker size, wattage (heat), and focus on performance, weight, etc.
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All Yamaha passive cabinets for monitors....... 4 - 12s, 4 - 15s, 1 - single 18" sub. 1 - 12" vertical on top of single 18" is drum & 4 - 15s for 5 mixes is our typical, often add a pair of 12s front center, with horns opposite ends, for lead vocal for 6 mixes is a close 2nd. Often have 2 or 3 in-ears added into the shuffle btw, frequency split and biamp the drum monitor.
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My personal opinion is that 12" is the end all be all monitor size. Drums should and can use a sub, but should have a 12" atop of it.
From an objective standpoint, the 12" form factor is perfect in size, frequency response and level to do the job. They are usually cheaper, smaller and in theory should sound better. There really isn't much a 12" can't do when put up against a like 15" model. If you want all that low end, then go get a three way model and do it right :)
I own the RCF NX12SMA model and I too love it. It gets REALLY loud, is stable and sounds good doing it. Compared to my other Renkus Heinz CFX series monitors ( also 12" ) they really show you what the difference between a coaxial and conventional layout design can do with pretty much all else being the same. The RH CFX121M and the RCF NX12SMA are spec for spec, nearly identical. The RH's are no slouch and certainly sound better than many other monitors out there and that I have owned / used. The NX12SMA's are definitely on another level though. Just about every coaxial unit I have ever used has just been better than a conventional 2 way design. If your looking to get some real wedges, the NX12SMA's are a good choice.
I think the whole 15" monitor thing is more about SPL than sonic range really. The 15" models typically get 1-3db louder than comparable 12" models and this is what sticks in the minds of users and perhaps even some engineers. My attitude is that it doesn't matter how loud a speaker can get if you can't get it loud enough to be heard without feedback. While I haven't had too many bands that were slamming 120db of anything out, my experience has been that if the monitor is capable of producing around 125db peak or more, it should work well for most acts. Now work is the big ? mark. If you can't get the speaker to be stable at the needed levels, it just won't matter how loud the speaker could get.
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That is a true statement; however, clarity throughout the spectrum is much better from a 15" cone than a 12" cone, highs use same cone
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2 things:
Huh? Bullshit.
Change the display name field in your profile to your real first and last names or the mods will delete your post.
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Size != Performance
My SRX812's seem to have as much low end as the prx615's they replaced.
If they were only for monitors maybe i could have got something even smaller for lounge gigs, but i have used them for anything from monitors, foh - with/without subs, guitaramp (axefx), delay speaker, step ladder, etc.
It's more important to me to have a versatile speaker that will do anything I ask of it.
So to the OP, figure out what you need then find a speaker the meets your needs.
Leave out speaker size, wattage (heat), and focus on performance, weight, etc.
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Callan,
I'm going to be designing and building from scratch (as I have done with all my FOH gear), and wanted a target to aim at. It looks like the RCF coaxials are the ones to match or beat.
It'd be relatively easy to slap a 12" coaxial in a box and call it good. I like the form-factor of a pair of 8"s with one of them coaxial, so I'm going to see if it can be done that way.
Chris
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That is a true statement; however, clarity throughout the spectrum is much better from a 15" cone than a 12" cone, highs use same cone
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I would love to hear the reasoning behind this statement.
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All Yamaha passive cabinets for monitors...
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Mac
admin
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My personal opinion is that 12" is the end all be all monitor size. Drums should and can use a sub, but should have a 12" atop of it.
From an objective standpoint, the 12" form factor is perfect in size, frequency response and level to do the job. They are usually cheaper, smaller and in theory should sound better. There really isn't much a 12" can't do when put up against a like 15" model. If you want all that low end, then go get a three way model and do it right :)
I totally agree. Prior to our sound company startup, I was a regional musician and got to use many different wedges before we went IEM. I always preferred our vocals through a 12” monitor for whatever reason.
We took advantage of our Eminence dealership and access to their technical people to build a killer little bi-amp 12” wedge. We tuned it to go down to 50 Hz and it gets the job done in most situations. I typically cut it off with the processors at 55 Hz to be safe. We liked it well enough to build 14 of them and may add a few more. The 12” helps keep the box size to a minimum so the musicians don’t look cut off below the knees like with larger boxes.
We still do not send kick or bass through them unless we are in a bind. Drummers need a sub plus a wedge (higher wedge HPF of course). Bassists need to bring their own amp, but we can accommodate with a drummer sub if needed. Keyboardists have been very happy with them. Everyone else, especially vocalists, love them and always comment on the clarity. Clarity is indeed the key.
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Callan,
I'm going to be designing and building from scratch (as I have done with all my FOH gear), and wanted a target to aim at. It looks like the RCF coaxials are the ones to match or beat.
It'd be relatively easy to slap a 12" coaxial in a box and call it good. I like the form-factor of a pair of 8"s with one of them coaxial, so I'm going to see if it can be done that way.
Chris
The Smithers wedge mentioned earlier is a very good place to start for DIY. It would take some serious work to out do that.
The dual 8 will have issues. You would need to low pass the 2nd driver at 1/4 wave of the spacing so that you don't get interference with a weird horizontal pattern. The main benefit of coaxial monitors is that the behavior in the crossover range doesn't change as you move along the axis of a conventional multi driver box. So, now that you've low passed the 2nd 8 to avoid the interference, what have you gained? More LF output. Which you don't really need for most wedge applications. Maybe as a low profile keyboard monitor. I believe in having a small sub at the drum kit if LF is needed to hear the bass guitar or kick drum (while it seems intuitive that the drummer should be able to hear a drum they're nearly sitting on top of the reality is that the snare blocks a lot of it and much of the sound comes off the front head).
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Hi Stephen,
The pair of 8"s side-by-side would be within a quarter wavelength at just over 400Hz. Running down to 80Hz gives a useful bandwidth to run the second 8", so I still think it's worthwhile. You could run the second 8" even higher and narrow the dispersion a little through the midrange, which isn't necessarily a bad thing - other people on-stage will probably appreciate having less spill from adjacent monitors.
With the size of the stages I'm running at the moment (and there aren't any plans to go bigger), a not-as-good-as-the-RCF 12" coaxial does fine for drummers that want a bit of their kick. It won't flap their T-shirts, but does give a bit of "feel". I'm hoping the new cabinets will improve on that by around 6dB.
That reminds me, I should probably measure the current monitors, too...
Chris
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We have xW15 and they kick ass. It's a serious wedge on par with the Clair 12am in terms of acceptance by touring acts.
We own a bunch (around 20) of SRX712m and they're great little monitors (had national acts accept them when biamped) and make for nice speakers on sticks, too.
The hard part is training monitor mixing persons to ask "what is too loud in your mix" rather than "what do you need want more of?"
I have 6 of the 712m, great boxes and versatile. I do like the xW15 and they do kick ass sound wise.
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I have 6 of the 712m, great boxes and versatile. I do like the xW15 and they do kick ass sound wise.
Just curious - the xW15 uses a 15" and horn side-by-side, and it looks like the frequency response changes off-axis. Is that much of a problem in use? Is the crossover steep enough that you don't notice much interference between the two drivers?
TIA,
Chris
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Just curious - the xW15 uses a 15" and horn side-by-side, and it looks like the frequency response changes off-axis. Is that much of a problem in use? Is the crossover steep enough that you don't notice much interference between the two drivers?
TIA,
Chris
It's 24dB/oct L-R, IIRC. Don't recall if there is an under-lap or not.
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Hi all,
So I've been wondering about this. I see a lot of people going for 15" stage monitors because "the drummer likes some kick", or "the keyboard/bassist needs some low end". For a good majority of stages, I'm not convinced that a 15" is really required, because you can do this with four of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXuV-Cl0hmI which was 85dBC-slow at around 280'.
Putting all of that energy on a stage just seems crazy to me.
I get that when you've got a 16-box hang per side and a big stage to play with, a couple of 15"s will help keep some "punch" when the artist moves away from the monitors. My FOH would be a sidefill for those gigs.
For LAB Lounge sized stages? I just don't think it's something that's needed.
The monitors I have right now are okay, and a step up from what most bands are used to. I would, however, like to replace them with something that manages more sound per cubic foot. I used a 12" coaxial (whose cone has around 2mm of linear movement before it's just distorting) for a drummer recently, with the rest of the band on 8" coaxials, and the drummer was happy with how much kick he could get in the monitor, and actually asked me to drop the level a little during soundcheck.
So, how much stage monitor do we really need?
I'm starting to think a good 12" should do it - after all, wedding DJs with a sub + column system have enough low end with a 12" per side to fill a small dancefloor, and we're looking to provide enough grunt for someone that's within 10' of the cabinet.
If a good 12" can do it, a pair of 8"s should get very close. If you can make one of those 8"s coaxial and still work with the other, you've got a nice low-profile monitor that should be fine giving the drummer some kick.
Curious about what you all think. Are 12"s the new 15", or do we increase levels to use up the available headroom anyway?
Chris
Chris, personally speaking as a semi professional musician, the newer active 12" stage monitors are the way to go. I too have never owned any 15" stage wedges for ANY of my clients, whether it's a small club to larger outdoor stages, 12" to me are the perfect size and amount of energy on stage.
For the past 10 years, I've been running IEM's and most of my ban, even most of my clients have now switched to those as well, so stage monitors are becoming more and more scarce. (fine with me, less to carry!!)
I do recall working with a client of mine who had always used 15" wedges (always had it on his tech rider) and now working with them for over a year he loves the sound and smaller footprint of the active 12" ZLX's I bring in and now looking into buying a IEM for himself. :)
just my $.2
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I have 6 of the 712m, great boxes and versatile. I do like the xW15 and they do kick ass sound wise.
For those who think the 712m doesn't have any bass; a few years ago we played a county festival ahead of a has been band you've heard of. The organizers promised backline and told me to call Raul. He read off a list of what was scheduled to be there the day we were on and it all sounded cool. Go to plug in at the show and we find that the backline wasn't his. Has beens had rerouted the backline to be done by someone else. And most of it was locked down by them. I had brought my guitar amp in case but the bass player was stuck. He pulled a Countryman DI out of his bag and we played with him only coming though various 712s scattered around the stage. No problem at all.
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For those who think the 712m doesn't have any bass; a few years ago we played a county festival ahead of a has been band you've heard of. The organizers promised backline and told me to call Raul. He read off a list of what was scheduled to be there the day we were on and it all sounded cool. Go to plug in at the show and we find that the backline wasn't his. Has beens had rerouted the backline to be done by someone else. And most of it was locked down by them. I had brought my guitar amp in case but the bass player was stuck. He pulled a Countryman DI out of his bag and we played with him only coming though various 712s scattered around the stage. No problem at all.
QSC HPR 12's Bass players use Sans Amps and run through the monitors. Works like a champ no issue.
I have one drummer left who insists I bring along a little 12" powered sub and I put a coax 12" on top of it (the Alto, I wish I could get 4 more of those).
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Hi Chris,
A model for your dual 8" coax concept:
https://www.tannoy.com/Categories/Tannoy/VX/VX-8-2/p/P0BUM
Note that a small 8" box will likely have a bit wider dispersion than a 12".
Good health, Weogo
Callan,
I'm going to be designing and building from scratch (as I have done with all my FOH gear), and wanted a target to aim at. It looks like the RCF coaxials are the ones to match or beat.
It'd be relatively easy to slap a 12" coaxial in a box and call it good. I like the form-factor of a pair of 8"s with one of them coaxial, so I'm going to see if it can be done that way.
Chris
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Hey Weogo,
Yep, that Tannoy cab is the sort of thing. I'm aiming at more power handling and more output, though.
I understand why a lot of people like coaxial monitors, but the standard MF/HF side-by-side arrangement also seems to work well. At 6' distance, moving 20 degrees off axis means you've gone a little over 2' across the stage, and 40 degrees is 5' across the stage.
EV's spec sheet for the 15" two-way monitor is quite revealing - while the off-axis response does get messy, you're still flat within 10 degrees out, and there's a 3 or 4dB dip when 20 degrees out. At 40 degrees, it's pretty messy but certainly not the end of the world.
Compare it to the polar maps here for 18Sound's top 12" coaxial - http://www.eighteensound.com/Products/Articles/Detail/catid/4065/eid/3416/12ncx750h
And, actually, having the two drivers side-by-side doesn't look too bad. I don't think it's as cut and dried as people often think.
The RCF 12" coaxial can be matched in sensitivity and output by good 10" midbass units - Faital Pro's 10FH520, for example. That's on account of the coaxial having to share it's motor strength across two drivers, and the compromises that happen with the cone when you've got to mount a horn in the middle of it.
The saga continues - a 10" two-way would be another option if it can be made to match the RCFs.
Chris
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For those who think the 712m doesn't have any bass; a few years ago we played a county festival ahead of a has been band you've heard of. The organizers promised backline and told me to call Raul. He read off a list of what was scheduled to be there the day we were on and it all sounded cool. Go to plug in at the show and we find that the backline wasn't his. Has beens had rerouted the backline to be done by someone else. And most of it was locked down by them. I had brought my guitar amp in case but the bass player was stuck. He pulled a Countryman DI out of his bag and we played with him only coming though various 712s scattered around the stage. No problem at all.
The key to getting the 712m really going is in bi-amp and with a nice amp like an Itech. They pack quite the punch for a small package.
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Bumping this back up.
So, the 12" RCF driver is a 300w unit with a 1" HF unit firing through a 60-degree circular horn. The midbass section is okay, but very much geared towards mid-band sensitivity at the expense of low-frequency response in a small box - it really wants a cabinet that's around 40L to get flat to the mid-70s, or 27L to be flat to 100Hz.
Of course, you can just throw some EQ around, but 300w isn't a lot of power handling and I'd like to keep these cabinets as flat as possible without needing external EQ.
The Faital Pro 10FH520 is a good 10" unit that can match the RCF 12" coaxial, on account of having more thermal power handling (600w), and more linear cone travel (7.5mm, 50% more than the RCF). The FP 10" has a much more powerful motor, so can provide the same LF response of the RCF in a 10L cabinet, compared to the 27L of the RCF.
When it comes to going loud from a small box, it looks like the Faital Pro 10" is the one to go for, although the RCF does have a sensitivity advantage.
In all cases, I've gone for a similar low-frequency response to the EV XW15A monitors mentioned elsewhere - flat to 100Hz.
Now, my main PA speakers happen to have the Faital Pro 10FH520 drivers in there, so I'm going to pull one and build a prototype cabinet. I also happen to have some compression drivers that look like B&C DE250s, and 18Sound XT120 horns, so this might come together quite quickly.
Crossover will be 2kHz, since the 10"s get messy above that. I'll start active, take measurements, etc, and then see about doing a passive crossover.
I'd prefer to have a cabinet that can be used on stands for small venues, so a seperate horn of something like 90x60 dispersion would be useful in that regard. The RCF's 60-degree dispersion might be a bit narrow for that.
I also considered the new drivers from 18Sound that feature Active Impedance Control. Instead of demodulating rings, it adds a small coil that's driven by the amplifier to counter-act magnetic flux modulation. A rather neat idea, and their paper does show reduction in distortion, but their offerings don't have the power handling to keep up with the Faital Pro unit.
That's all for now.
Chris
PS - Mods, if you feel it'd be best to split this off to a new thread, feel free.
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So, just out of curiosity. Did you achieve your goal!?
Verstuurd vanaf mijn G8341 met Tapatalk
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So, just out of curiosity. Did you achieve your goal!?
Verstuurd vanaf mijn G8341 met Tapatalk
Not yet. Life has a way of putting a halt to these things - a combination of the main speakers (which house the Faital Pro 10" drivers) being used 2-3 days a week every week this Summer, plus moving into a house/project (which is starting to come together now) has meant little time for experimenting recently.
A new set of stage monitors is definitely high up on my list, though - I consider them the weak point of my current system, and I'm hoping to get a new set of monitors built for the next festival season.
I'm also investigating a different angle in the Fane 15" triple-cone unit. The motor is quite weak, so it demands large boxes to do anything useful. I've picked up a couple to play with, and I'm going to try increasing the motor strength. Not sure how well it's going to work - one guy in France has done it and measured good changes in the T/S parameters, but there's really not much data on that area, so it'll be very interesting to see how it goes.
Chris
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I've used the 10" and 12" RCFsma monitors a few times now and EVERY time the artists say it the best they have sounded on stage.
I'm not doing anything fancy mixing or EQ-wise. It's been with both me setting them up or the BE.
I can't speak to whether they are loud enough for you, but they were too loud for my taste.
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I have an old set of PAS co-ax 15’s that work great on drums,keys or bass. My front line are RH 12 and horn passive boxes. The form factor makes them a great wedge. I have also used (and will use this weekend) K12’s. The k12’s, like some older PRX 612’s I had require blocks to get them into a reasonable monitor position. With out the blocks, they have to be 3 feet away to be heard. Not always convenient on limited stages. The angle on the RH box or the PAS for that matter allows for placement at the mic stand base.
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I've used the 10" and 12" RCFsma monitors a few times now and EVERY time the artists say it the best they have sounded on stage.
I'm not doing anything fancy mixing or EQ-wise. It's been with both me setting them up or the BE.
I can't speak to whether they are loud enough for you, but they were too loud for my taste.
Dave, they probably are loud enough for me, and from what I've heard here they ought to sound great.
However, each one costs as much as my current mixing desk. I enjoy a good project and I don't have loads of cash to throw around, so DIY is the way I do things.
If the plan works, the Fane units ought to be something special - linear-phase point source, ~128dB continuous output, in a box that's around 400mm x 440mm x 400mm (hwd). LF extension isn't fantastic (similar to the EV 15" monitor mentioned earlier), but if it was flat to 40Hz I wouldn't be telling everyone, just selling the latest miracle box.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
A model for your dual 8" coax concept:
https://www.tannoy.com/Categories/Tannoy/VX/VX-8-2/p/P0BUM
Note that a small 8" box will likely have a bit wider dispersion than a 12".
Good health, Weogo
My experience with dual woofer boxes is that unless you cross to the HF very low or do the bit where one woofer is band passed lower, they have limited dispersion along the stacked axis. A side by side wedge will likely have a narrow pattern right where the fundamentals of the vocals lie. Coupled with a narrow HF and enough of them on the stage this could be an advantage. In the more typical lounge situation with 2-3 across the front, it may become a liability.
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Bit of an update here.
Obviously the pandemic killed off any plans to re-do my stage monitor setup, so I kept the same monitors as previous years to keep me going for a bit.
Had a couple of gigs over the weekend. The first was at a large hotel function room. Couple of bands with drums/bass/2xguitar/vocals.
The second gig was in a 200-cap venue. Drums/bass/guitar/keys/vocals.
In both cases, I was running the monitors with a Powersoft T304, with a peak limiter set for 2x the continuous power rating of the cabinets. The monitors are older-model 12" 2-ways, with Beyma components. 300w RMS.
In both cases, the monitors were into the limiters pretty solidly. At the second one (200 cap venue, small stage), the guitarist's monitor hit 10dB of gain reduction due to the peak limiter. He had brought his own monitor, but it kept cutting out, so we ended up pushing my wedge pretty hard.
Now, the RCF CX12N251 used in their NX 12-SMA stage monitors simulates 3dB more sensitivity than the Beyma 12"s, and RCF use a large amplifier which would mean about 6dB more headroom than my monitors, so they'd still be about 4dB into the limiters at times.
4dB into the limiters is a more comfortable number than 10dB, so it looks like I have my target. Even so, I can't help but ponder how much monitor would be required to stay completely out of the limiters.
Back to the simulators, and on with the challenge.
Chris
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I went with the RCF TT20-CXA, dual 8" with a 3" CD. The vocal clarity is outstanding, but the low end is lacking. I thought it would be an issue, but I've never had a band ask for bass in the wedges, and you can hear the attack of the kick drum just fine. Lots of GBF, too.
Nice compact package for small stages, reasonable good pattern control and I'll probably just add a small sub for drums down the road.
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Smaller, lighter, coaxial monitors that sound great are wonderful, but what I really want to know is how do we convince everyone to move to IEM's so we can stop dragging monitors around? When I invested in IEM's a few years back I thought my days of lugging monitors around were ending....but here I am looking at buying more monitors.....arrrghhhhh
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Smaller, lighter, coaxial monitors that sound great are wonderful, but what I really want to know is how do we convince everyone to move to IEM's so we can stop dragging monitors around? When I invested in IEM's a few years back I thought my days of lugging monitors around were ending....but here I am looking at buying more monitors.....arrrghhhhh
Then we need better IEM systems.
Even the "flagship" PSM1000 sounds bad compared to a off the shelf headphone amp with XLR inputs from the console.
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Then we need better IEM systems.
Even the "flagship" PSM1000 sounds bad compared to a off the shelf headphone amp with XLR inputs from the console.
I think the bigger issue is the earbuds. People don't like things stuck in their ears, the generic fits don't work for everyone, customs are expensive, and it is one more thing to fiddle with vs just walking on stage with your instrument.
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I think the bigger issue is the earbuds. People don't like things stuck in their ears, the generic fits don't work for everyone, customs are expensive, and it is one more thing to fiddle with vs just walking on stage with your instrument.
IMHO the earbuds are a bandaid for the deeper issue, namely the poor SQ of most IEM systems.
Try a simple test with a pair of good speakers, run them off a IEM belt pack. They doesn't sound as good as they do with a regular xlr cable.
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IMHO the earbuds are a bandaid for the deeper issue, namely the poor SQ of most IEM systems.
Try a simple test with a pair of good speakers, run them off a IEM belt pack. They doesn't sound as good as they do with a regular xlr cable.
Welcome to RF, where you can spend $10k on something that is almost, but not quite, as good as a $25 cable. :P
-Russ
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IMHO the earbuds are a bandaid for the deeper issue, namely the poor SQ of most IEM systems.
Try a simple test with a pair of good speakers, run them off a IEM belt pack. They doesn't sound as good as they do with a regular xlr cable.
And the poor quality of "mixing" for IEMs. It's a different way of listening that needs a different approach to building the mix, IMHO.
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IEM monitor mixing is very much a work of art. It takes multitudes more work and attention to do it well. When you get it though, it is amazing.
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IMHO the earbuds are a bandaid for the deeper issue, namely the poor SQ of most IEM systems.
Try a simple test with a pair of good speakers, run them off a IEM belt pack. They doesn't sound as good as they do with a regular xlr cable.
I'm excited for the future of IEM RF, honestly.
Lectrosonics has proven that digital IEM systems are feasible and effective - as long as total system latency doesn't add up. M2's 1.4ms latency is fantastic in that respect. Shure/Senn are not far behind though with their digital RF systems; it's only a matter of time before they turn them around into IEM systems and attempt to shave down the last few ms of latency.
Personally? I predict Shure will probably come to market first with digital IEMs based off of SLX-D's digital system - greater latency penalty, but that's less of a problem in the MI and semi-pro markets. (With wired mics it should still be possible to stay under 5ms total system latency.) It'd make a good lower-stakes test bed before releasing a digital PSM1000 replacement.
And, of course, as digital IEMs are more widely accepted at the pro level, older analog gear becomes cheaper and more accessible for semi-pros and hobbyists, pushing the ubiquity of IEMs even further. Ubiquity at every level will help minimize use of wedges for good.
One fun/silly project I'd love to work on someday: 1U analog IEM transmitter using an SDR and sufficient DSP for the FM modulation and combination, allowing multiple IEM feeds to be to transmitted through a single RF output stage. Would be a neat product...if it can be sufficiently optimized such that cost/channel is lower than EW IEM/PSM300 with combiner. :) (Hey bands, chuck this in a rack with an X32-Rack and a split snake, and bring whatever IEM receivers are cheap on eBay...)
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In both cases, the monitors were into the limiters pretty solidly. At the second one (200 cap venue, small stage), the guitarist's monitor hit 10dB of gain reduction due to the peak limiter.
Now, the RCF CX12N251 used in their NX 12-SMA stage monitors simulates 3dB more sensitivity than the Beyma 12"s, and RCF use a large amplifier which would mean about 6dB more headroom than my monitors, so they'd still be about 4dB into the limiters at times.
4dB into the limiters is a more comfortable number than 10dB, so it looks like I have my target. Even so, I can't help but ponder how much monitor would be required to stay completely out of the limiters.
Chris,
With deaf musicians playing electric instruments, it is nearly impossible to stay completely out of the limiters and save drivers no matter what type or how many monitors used.
With midband sensitivity near 99dB, the RCF CX12N251 should be able to do as the NX 12-SMA specs say- about 129dB at one meter with 1000 watts peak.
Since the monitor is usually about 2 meters from the muso's ear (double distance, -6dB) that drops to 123 dB.
It's not at all difficult for many vocalists to hit 130dB peak at the mic (I just sang in the closet for the first time in ages and easily went way over 126dB, maxed out my analog dB meter). Gain before feedback can reach near the SPL level produced at the microphone, so one 12" ends up about 6dB short of reproducing the peak without limiting.
Add a second monitor and another 1000 watts (+6dB), you'll probably not see much limiting on vocals.
That said, in small venues, the entire mix then has to be built around an already too-loud-reflected mess, sometimes it's better to just let the limiters do their thing ;^).
Art
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Chris,
With deaf musicians playing electric instruments, it is nearly impossible to stay completely out of the limiters and save drivers no matter what type or how many monitors used.
With midband sensitivity near 99dB, the RCF CX12N251 should be able to do as the NX 12-SMA specs say- about 129dB at one meter with 1000 watts peak.
Since the monitor is usually about 2 meters from the muso's ear (double distance, -6dB) that drops to 123 dB.
It's not at all difficult for many vocalists to hit 130dB peak at the mic (I just sang in the closet for the first time in ages and easily went way over 126dB, maxed out my analog dB meter). Gain before feedback can reach near the SPL level produced at the microphone, so one 12" ends up about 6dB short of reproducing the peak without limiting.
Add a second monitor and another 1000 watts (+6dB), you'll probably not see much limiting on vocals.
That said, in small venues, the entire mix then has to be built around an already too-loud-reflected mess, sometimes it's better to just let the limiters do their thing ;^).
Art
What Art said.
Monitors are like subs - if you ask the performers there are never enough.
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What Art said.
Monitors are like subs - if you ask the performers there are never enough.
And the more sub level, the more monitor level is required to combat the upward auditory masking the low frequency masker creates. Mud begets more mud.
And the deafer one becomes, the worse the effects of upward masking..
https://blogs.qsc.com/live-sound/auditory-masking-and-its-effect-on-our-perception-of-sound/
Art
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And the more sub level, the more monitor level is required to combat the upward auditory masking the low frequency masker creates. Mud begets more mud. {...}
Yet one more reason to use cardioid subwoofer arrays. :)
-Russ