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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => DJ Forum => Topic started by: Mike Henderson on July 12, 2020, 07:26:07 am

Title: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Henderson on July 12, 2020, 07:26:07 am
Hello all. I have this sonic here is you can have a look please?

https://www.sixstardj.com/sonicr218sub.html

The original subwoofers was replace with Eminence kilomax Pro which is 1400W Continuous and 2400W Peak. I get a lot of Depth with this cab and a serious grunt when the power is turned up. What this cab is lacking, for me, is punch and distance.

I listened to a friend's EAW SB1000 and that bass had roundness, punch and distance. A friend is tell me if I were to replace the Eminence will RCF I should get a similar output to the EAW. This is I am not seeing as the two cabs have different technology. Also when I compare the specs of both the EAW shows the better specs.

I have attached a screenshot of both Cab's specs, can you guys advise me on this please? Thanks.


(http://)
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: MikeHarris on July 12, 2020, 08:09:03 am
it is not mystic...its the rules you use your real name
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on July 12, 2020, 08:13:17 am
I had written a nice, informative post, but I've deleted that.

You clicked through a lot of pages, and there are reminders everywhere (including the forum rules, which you're advised to read before posting) - fix your displayed name, and then we'll talk.

Chris
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on July 12, 2020, 12:34:03 pm
Hello all.

 can you guys advise me on this please? Thanks.

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
admin
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Henderson on July 12, 2020, 08:03:42 pm
Hello all. I have this sonic here is you can have a look please?

https://www.sixstardj.com/sonicr218sub.html

The original subwoofers was replace with Eminence kilomax Pro which is 1400W Continuous and 2400W Peak. I get a lot of Depth with this cab and a serious grunt when the power is turned up. What this cab is lacking, for me, is punch and distance.

I listened to a friend's EAW SB1000 and that bass had roundness, punch and distance. A friend is tell me if I were to replace the Eminence will RCF I should get a similar output to the EAW. This is I am not seeing as the two cabs have different technology. Also when I compare the specs of both the EAW shows the better specs.

I have attached a screenshot of both Cab's specs, can you guys advise me on this please? Thanks.
(http://)

Sorry about the username oversight guys, I have corrected it.

Please note that I had done some research on the net and on here regarding the SB1000 prior to creating this thread. My question relates to making a choice between replacing the Eminence woofers with RCF's on my Sonic or going with the SB 1000.
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Caleb Dueck on July 12, 2020, 08:30:40 pm
Sorry about the username oversight guys, I have corrected it.

Please note that I had done some research on the net and on here regarding the SB1000 prior to creating this thread. My question relates to making a choice between replacing the Eminence woofers with RCF's on my Sonic or going with the SB 1000.

Replace the whole subs with SB1000's.  They shouldn't cost all that much more than just new drivers, assuming they are used.

There's a LOT more to subwoofers than just the drivers. 

SB1000's aren't exactly modern technology anymore.  Unless you found some for real cheap - there are multiple other options you should look at as well. 

Basically you noticed that older technology but not cheap - performs better than cheap.  Rather than rush to spend money - take the next step and look at current technology, then save funds and buy what fits best. 
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Caldwell on July 12, 2020, 08:46:00 pm
Your talking about two different leagues of subs here first or all.

The Kilomax is a fairly picky speaker as to the box it will work well in, it wants a decent
amount of cubic footage first of all.

Download WinISD speaker design program and do some reverse engineering, figure the internal cubic footage of you subs, measure the port dimensions, load some different 18 inch driver TS parameters into the program.

Loaded with correct drivers your subs would be decent.

Ok I just did a little work for you....
According to the Sonic link you provided the sub has a internal volume
of 16.4 cubic feet and is tuned to 32hz.

I ran a double 18 box loaded with two Kilomax 18's tuned to 32 hz.
With that it wanted a 46 cubic foot internal volume box.
I guessed the port on your sub to be about 23 inches wide, at that
width at the minimum it would need to be 10 inches tall with no ducting for a 46 cubic foot box.

In the attached picture the green line is the Kilomax speakers loaded into your sub tuned to 32 hz. The yellow line is Eminence Definimax 18's and the white line is Peavey Lowrider 18's.


I just tried a few RCF 18's that I thought would be worth trying and they did not model as well as the Lowrider or the Definimax did. Not that RCF 18's are bad in any, the one's I tried just want a different box.

The SB1000 is going to be assumingly built better than your Sonic cabinets.

As far front loaded 18 inch subs go there just a really well built box holding a speaker, the magic is the right driver matched to the box size, port size and desired compromise in output and frequency extension.




Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on July 12, 2020, 08:47:50 pm
There is no fundamental difference in the EAW sub and yours except packaging, the SB1000 was just designed to allow more drivers to fit into a given radiating area. It uses better drivers than what your cabs contain but there are even better drivers available now and much more efficient cab designs, so depending how much time and money you want to invest into this upgrade you could potentially end up with several times more output in the same footprint.
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on July 13, 2020, 03:23:11 am
I wouldn't bother with the Kilomax drivers. They barely had enough motor for a 15" cone, let alone the 18" version. A modern high-power sub driver would cheerfully annihilate them, so long as your cabs are half-decent.

Take a look at B&C, Faital Pro, etc, to see what's out there.

Chris
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Henderson on July 13, 2020, 07:57:35 am
I wouldn't bother with the Kilomax drivers. They barely had enough motor for a 15" cone, let alone the 18" version. A modern high-power sub driver would cheerfully annihilate them, so long as your cabs are half-decent.

Take a look at B&C, Faital Pro, etc, to see what's out there.

Chris

Thanks for coming to my rescue guys. Sorry I did not want to create many posts responding to each of you so I will address all in this post.

From reading everyone's post I gather that yes, my instincts was correct that it would be better to go with the SB1000, thanks for settling that for me and I appreciate you taking the time to do all of that work for me Mike [Caldwell], thank you!

Caleb, yes, I had inquired about other speaker design options for punch bass on different forums but could not get an answer from anyone. As mentioned I loved the roundness, depth, distance and punch of SB1000. All of those features is what I am seeking. Especially though I want punch [boom] when the bass hits.

I had inquired into which types of cabinet design gives punch or rather what is it exactly in a speaker design which determines the amount of punch the cab would give. I had asked this question on forums and even of an experienced local speaker builder and he could not answer this question which surprised me I must say.

Then too, would a 15 or 18" be better for punch?

If you guys might be able to answer the above questions or at least recommend any other type cab I can look into which would give me the punch bass with a distance of say 20', I would appreciate it, thanks.

Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Ivan Beaver on July 13, 2020, 08:12:23 am
There is more to a sub  than simply the design or the drivers used.  Putting better drivers in a flimsy cabinet will have minimal effect.

How well it is constructed, bracing, type of wood etc makes a BIG difference in the final outcome/performance.

Every Sonic cabinet I have seen has been cheap wood, minimal or no bracing, cheap construction etc.

This all adds together and will absorb the energy from the woofers, instead of putting it out into the audience.

EAW has always build a solid cabinet, that holds together well.

That means more energy for the audience.

Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: scottstephens on July 13, 2020, 01:01:07 pm
Mike,

   As stated before, Sonic isn't exactly "stellar" to say the least! You get what you pay for! Also, What amp are you using to drive the subs?  A Big Amp Like a high end Crown ( I tech, MA ) or a QSC PL series or several other manufacturers will stomp a cheap amp. Every Day All Day!

Scott
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Henderson on July 13, 2020, 04:12:10 pm
Mike,

   As stated before, Sonic isn't exactly "stellar" to say the least! You get what you pay for! Also, What amp are you using to drive the subs?  A Big Amp Like a high end Crown ( I tech, MA ) or a QSC PL series or several other manufacturers will stomp a cheap amp. Every Day All Day!

Scott

I got that guys. Based on your answer I have to assume you did not see my last post? If not, here is it is again so ADMIN please note that I am not meaning to double post or bump:


Thanks for coming to my rescue guys. Sorry I did not want to create many posts responding to each of you so I will address all in this post.

From reading everyone's post I gather that yes, my instincts was correct that it would be better to go with the SB1000, thanks for settling that for me and I appreciate you taking the time to do all of that work for me Mike [Caldwell], thank you!

Caleb, yes, I had inquired about other speaker design options for punch bass on different forums but could not get an answer from anyone. As mentioned I loved the roundness, depth, distance and punch of SB1000. All of those features is what I am seeking. Especially though I want punch [boom] when the bass hits.

I had inquired into which types of cabinet design gives punch or rather what is it exactly in a speaker design which determines the amount of punch the cab would give. I had asked this question on forums and even of an experienced local speaker builder and he could not answer this question which surprised me I must say.

Then too, would a 15 or 18" be better for punch?

If you guys might be able to answer the above questions or at least recommend any other type cab I can look into which would give me the punch bass with a distance of say 20', I would appreciate it, thanks.

p.s. To answer your question Scott, I am using Crown VZ 3600 so it's not a power issue with the Sonic. The Sonic just doesn't give the type of bass and response that I had heard from my friends SB1000.
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Doug Fowler on July 13, 2020, 04:35:50 pm
I got that guys. Based on your answer I have to assume you did not see my last post? If not, here is it is again so ADMIN please note that I am not meaning to double post or bump:


Thanks for coming to my rescue guys. Sorry I did not want to create many posts responding to each of you so I will address all in this post.

From reading everyone's post I gather that yes, my instincts was correct that it would be better to go with the SB1000, thanks for settling that for me and I appreciate you taking the time to do all of that work for me Mike [Caldwell], thank you!

Caleb, yes, I had inquired about other speaker design options for punch bass on different forums but could not get an answer from anyone. As mentioned I loved the roundness, depth, distance and punch of SB1000. All of those features is what I am seeking. Especially though I want punch [boom] when the bass hits.

I had inquired into which types of cabinet design gives punch or rather what is it exactly in a speaker design which determines the amount of punch the cab would give. I had asked this question on forums and even of an experienced local speaker builder and he could not answer this question which surprised me I must say.

Then too, would a 15 or 18" be better for punch?

If you guys might be able to answer the above questions or at least recommend any other type cab I can look into which would give me the punch bass with a distance of say 20', I would appreciate it, thanks.

p.s. To answer your question Scott, I am using Crown VZ 3600 so it's not a power issue with the Sonic. The Sonic just doesn't give the type of bass and response that I had heard from my friends SB1000.

There is a reason SB1000 costs 4-5 times as much as that Sonic box.  It's been an industry standard for 20 years. 

Be careful with a 3600 on subs.  There used to be a particular point of failure but I can't recall specifically. Maybe it got fixed with VZ.

"Punch at 20 feet" sounds like a guitarist chasing "tone".  That's a lifelong quest for many.  It's definitely not measurable.  I will say, however, that for many years big stage drum monitoring setups commonly used 15s for the low end. 

Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Chris Grimshaw on July 13, 2020, 05:04:09 pm
I find that "punch" is typically a function of the integration between the subs and main speakers. Having a solid 70-160Hz range is important.

Chris
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Doug Fowler on July 13, 2020, 06:30:57 pm
I find that "punch" is typically a function of the integration between the subs and main speakers. Having a solid 70-160Hz range is important.

Chris

Agreed.  Especially important for EDM.
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Henderson on July 13, 2020, 06:40:18 pm
I find that "punch" is typically a function of the integration between the subs and main speakers. Having a solid 70-160Hz range is important.

Chris

That's pretty much where my crossover frequency is set but this Sonic does not give a punch bass. It will rattle the floor and shake the walls effectively but I certainly would not say it produces a punchy bass therefore I cannot say it's the frequency alone which determines if a Cab would produce punch.

I had thought either a specific Cab's design or a specific woofer itself or both would determine if you would get punch bass. If this is not the case then how does one go about getting a speaker if they like punchy bass? Would a person need to simply go listen to different Subs in the hopes to find one which gives a punchy bass?
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Caldwell on July 13, 2020, 07:20:49 pm
Are you using an effective high pass filter at some point between the mixer and the subs.
If there flapping around trying to reproduce what they can't that can dull the "punch".

Going back to your original post, when you said you listened to your friends SB1000's was that in their complete system or did you just swap in the SB1000's to your system?
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Henderson on July 13, 2020, 07:42:52 pm
Are you using an effective high pass filter at some point between the mixer and the subs.

My DJ Mixer runs to a DBX EQ which runs into the Ashly 1001 Crossover then to the Crown Amps.

Yes, the friend was simply running the SB1000 with his EAW Tops.

We have tweaked my system every which way and whatever punch it throws out is not close to the SB 1000. My mind is pretty much set on getting the SB1000 so no need to further discuss the Sonic for any reason.

Caleb mentioned there are other options aside from the SB1000 so what those options are is what I would like to at least look into meantime.
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Don T. Williams on July 14, 2020, 03:39:22 pm
Things are even more complicated than you think.  Almost always, the subs are run louder than the cabinets they cross up to.  +10 to +12 is not uncommon and for EDM it can be much greater.  With a conventional cross-over, electrically the highs and lows should perfectly sum together at the crossover point and the system will be flat through that range if both low and high speakers have equal output levels.  That's the theory.  In reality, this almost never happens for a lot of reasons.  When the subs are run louder that the highs, it changes (raises) the acoustical (what we hear) cross-over point - sometimes by an octave!  Example - you think you are crossing over at 75Hz (the Ashly's setting) but the acoustical crossover point might actually be 125Hz.  Again this varies due to a lot of factors and this was a theoretical example.  In reality they probably overlap each other but are not in phase in the overlap range.  Unless you have a cross-over that has separate high-pass and low-pass filter settings (and possibly adjustable filter slopes), you may never get the "punch" you are looking for.  I told you it gets complicated!
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Henderson on July 15, 2020, 07:59:39 am
Unless you have a cross-over that has separate high-pass and low-pass filter settings (and possibly adjustable filter slopes), you may never get the "punch" you are looking for.  I told you it gets complicated!

Ok now I understand what you mean by "high Pass Filter". So this info is suggesting to me that to get Punch it does not only depend on type of cab and woofers but also maybe even more so on the Processor being used, is this correct please? So maybe best to get a Digital Processor for Speaker Management instead of using the Analog Ashly?
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Caldwell on July 15, 2020, 01:02:28 pm
Ok now I understand what you mean by "high Pass Filter". So this info is suggesting to me that to get Punch it does not only depend on type of cab and woofers but also maybe even more so on the Processor being used, is this correct please? So maybe best to get a Digital Processor for Speaker Management instead of using the Analog Ashly?

In my reference to a high pass filter that was for the subwoofer to block sub low frequencies from being amplified and causing the sub to "unload" in trying to reproduce frequencies that it can not do.

Yes the "punch" can be a cabinet and processing overall combination.

What Don was talking about is crossover under lapping .

Below is a copy of a basic description of this topic I posted on another forum a while back.



In the case of crossing over from lows to mids or from any band pass to the next is when you run the band passes at different level as in more lows than mids raising the low output level increased the low drivers frequencies that are over lapping into the mid range area.

Excuse my crude drawing!

The middle vertical black line represents your intended crossover frequency.

The green line is your mid range crossover output level and cut off slope.

The red line to the left of the green line is the low frequency output level and cutoff slope.

Both at the same level the crossover frequency both electronic and acoustic is the same.
Now look at the upper red line that represents a higher low frequency output level and low pass cutoff frequency that is still set at the same high pass frequency as the mid range.

You can see that it moved the acoustic crossover frequency higher with more overlap between the lows and the mids.

The dashed blue line represents the same higher low frequency output level only with a
lower low pass frequency and the resulting acoustic crossover now matches what the intended electronic crossover frequency was to be.
 
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Henderson on July 15, 2020, 02:17:31 pm
In my reference to a high pass filter that was for the subwoofer to block sub low frequencies from being amplified and causing the sub to "unload" in trying to reproduce frequencies that it can not do.

Yes the "punch" can be a cabinet and processing overall combination.

What Don was talking about is crossover under lapping .

Even though I'm not sure I have grasped all of this technical stuff, thanks for taking the time to do the drawing and explaining it.

A friend had told be that a Digital processor will make the speaker perform more accurately than an Analog Crossover so that I get.
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Caldwell on July 15, 2020, 03:17:43 pm
Even though I'm not sure I have grasped all of this technical stuff, thanks for taking the time to do the drawing and explaining it.

A friend had told be that a Digital processor will make the speaker perform more accurately than an Analog Crossover so that I get.

Yes and no.............
Just slapping in a DSP and dialing up a crossover frequency not so much.

Setting up bandpass output limiting, driver/cabinet offset delay, crossover frequency underlap, output
bandpass EQ will take more understanding of system set up and some analyzing software to get things dialed in will help you get the most out of your system.

What are your top boxes in the system?
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Don T. Williams on July 15, 2020, 04:44:09 pm
In my reference to a high pass filter that was for the subwoofer to block sub low frequencies from being amplified and causing the sub to "unload" in trying to reproduce frequencies that it can not do.

Yes the "punch" can be a cabinet and processing overall combination.

What Don was talking about is crossover under lapping .

Below is a copy of a basic description of this topic I posted on another forum a while back.



In the case of crossing over from lows to mids or from any band pass to the next is when you run the band passes at different level as in more lows than mids raising the low output level increased the low drivers frequencies that are over lapping into the mid range area.

Excuse my crude drawing!

The middle vertical black line represents your intended crossover frequency.

The green line is your mid range crossover output level and cut off slope.

The red line to the left of the green line is the low frequency output level and cutoff slope.

Both at the same level the crossover frequency both electronic and acoustic is the same.
Now look at the upper red line that represents a higher low frequency output level and low pass cutoff frequency that is still set at the same high pass frequency as the mid range.

You can see that it moved the acoustic crossover frequency higher with more overlap between the lows and the mids.

The dashed blue line represents the same higher low frequency output level only with a
lower low pass frequency and the resulting acoustic crossover now matches what the intended electronic crossover frequency was to be.
 

Mike, Thanks for the illustrations and additional information.  There is so much more information and knowledge available today from when I entered into the world of live sound in the 1960's.  I don't think bi-amping and separate subwoofers were even available at that, and digital speaker controller/processors were not even imaginable.  Who would have thought that power amplifiers that produced thousands of watts and weighed under 25 lbs. would be available - and affordable! 
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Doug Fowler on July 15, 2020, 05:36:15 pm
Even though I'm not sure I have grasped all of this technical stuff, thanks for taking the time to do the drawing and explaining it.

A friend had told be that a Digital processor will make the speaker perform more accurately than an Analog Crossover so that I get.

"A friend told me".

Do yourself a favor and buy a powered sub.  You're barely treading water in the deep end of the pool.

https://www.bassboss.com/buy/powered-subwoofer-dj18s/

Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Don T. Williams on July 15, 2020, 05:59:54 pm
"A friend told me".

Do yourself a favor and buy a powered sub.  You're barely treading water in the deep end of the pool.

https://www.bassboss.com/buy/powered-subwoofer-dj18s/

+1 for that!  Much easier and will probably sound better too.
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Henderson on July 16, 2020, 06:52:47 am
"A friend told me".

Do yourself a favor and buy a powered sub.  You're barely treading water in the deep end of the pool.

https://www.bassboss.com/buy/powered-subwoofer-dj18s/

I must say what I am reading is very impressive. I will definitely look into it thanks!
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Doug Fowler on July 16, 2020, 03:47:12 pm
I must say what I am reading is very impressive. I will definitely look into it thanks!

A big part of what Dave has done at BASSBOSS is create tightly controlled systems that are almost impossible to damage.  This is huge for club owners, meaning no more re-cones (no, really).  That engineering technology trickles down to the portable DJ series. 

Call the factory with your questions, they will be very helpful. 

Disclaimer: I have never received compensation in any form from this company. I know the owner, I have used his products in (extreme) anger several times, and you can be confident with a purchase. 
I have only ever used the three way top box once, and it also is very good.
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Mike Henderson on July 16, 2020, 04:21:17 pm
Call the factory with your questions, they will be very helpful.

I guess I will need to call them, has to be a reason why they don't list the prices on the page. I shudder to know the price :)
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: JohnPinchin on July 16, 2020, 05:04:14 pm
I guess I will need to call them, has to be a reason why they don't list the prices on the page. I shudder to know the price :)


You can see the price - click add to cart and the price of your order will show up.   
Whether that is the actual price you can get them for when you talk to them is another matter. 

They look great, a shame they aren't in the UK.
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Doug Fowler on July 16, 2020, 06:47:55 pm
I guess I will need to call them, has to be a reason why they don't list the prices on the page. I shudder to know the price :)

Prices are there, just keep scrolling down.

Pro Tip:

1.  No one pays retail.
2.  "Everyone makes their own deal" - Jay Leno
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Tim McCulloch on July 17, 2020, 01:02:57 am
I guess I will need to call them, has to be a reason why they don't list the prices on the page. I shudder to know the price :)

You will shudder at the performance.  A dozen years ago, then under the name BassMaxx, David Lee brought a 3 x 12" sub to a shoot out held in NYC.  Lots of impressive LF was heard, many were measured with TEF.  But when David's sub was auditioned we got a visit from the NYC Environmental Police.  Seems a neighbor complained about stuff rattling in the apartment - across the street 3 or 4 floors up.
Title: Re: EAW SB1000 vs Sonic R218 bass??
Post by: Caleb Dueck on July 18, 2020, 02:20:59 pm
You will shudder at the performance.  A dozen years ago, then under the name BassMaxx, David Lee brought a 3 x 12" sub to a shoot out held in NYC.  Lots of impressive LF was heard, many were measured with TEF.  But when David's sub was auditioned we got a visit from the NYC Environmental Police.  Seems a neighbor complained about stuff rattling in the apartment - across the street 3 or 4 floors up.

I haven't heard the new products, but have heard 8 of the older B1(?; Precursor to the B-Zero) subs run flat out, and they replaced a pile of SB528's.  From conversations with David Lee and reading through that shootout thread Tim mentioned - I wouldn't hesitate to use their current products.