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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: Stan Shields on January 21, 2016, 02:34:43 PM
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Guys-
I'm about to go down the rabbit hole of helping a new community theater spec and install a sound system. The space is rectangular, very reverberant with all hard reflective surfaces. I'll post dimensions and hopefully a drawing shortly.
My first question is this: Anybody have any experience with a ceiling-mounted distributed system for Theater instead of the typical L&R or LCR placement? It occurred to me that if I can get the speakers closer to the listener I might do better in the gain-before-feedback dept. keeping the energy off the walls and directing it towards the relatively absorptive audience.
Am I crazy or is this an approach worth investigating?
Stan
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Is this a black box space or a proscenium, etc. type venue? The intimacy of an acting environment can really influence the way audio is distributed.
- Jordan Wolf
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More details on the space will help but your concept of getting the speakers closer to peoples ears is good in acoustically challenged rooms.
If going with ceiling speakers you may want to have them in a couple of zones so you can delay each zone as needed back to the stage so the focal point of sound is somewhat still the stage and not quite so much directly overhead. The key words there are "somewhat" and "not quite so much".
Send us a picture and dimensions, we'll be more than happy to help you spend your money!
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How high is the ceiling? If the room is very reverberant I am guessing the ceiling is somewhat high. If that's the case the walls might get the loudspeakers closer to the audience, or you would want to drop the speakers down below the ceiling. Also, Mike is absolutely right that delaying the speakers further from the stage will be important to keep the perceived source at the stage.
Also, do you plan to specify some treatment for the room itself? Depending on the size of the space the theater may get more audio bang for their buck by mitigating the acoustic problems directly than by trying to overcome them electronically. This is especially true if there are audible echos.
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Guys-
I'm about to go down the rabbit hole of helping a new community theater spec and install a sound system. The space is rectangular, very reverberant with all hard reflective surfaces. I'll post dimensions and hopefully a drawing shortly.
My first question is this: Anybody have any experience with a ceiling-mounted distributed system for Theater instead of the typical L&R or LCR placement? It occurred to me that if I can get the speakers closer to the listener I might do better in the gain-before-feedback dept. keeping the energy off the walls and directing it towards the relatively absorptive audience.
Am I crazy or is this an approach worth investigating?
Stan
I would start by making the room sound proper using architectural and dimensional modifications before even thinking about the audio reproduction system. (IE get the RT60 where it needs to be, make the room sound like a good theatre, then your audio system has a fighting chance at providing the quality that the audience deserves.)
nick
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How high is the ceiling? If the room is very reverberant I am guessing the ceiling is somewhat high. If that's the case the walls might get the loudspeakers closer to the audience, or you would want to drop the speakers down below the ceiling. Also, Mike is absolutely right that delaying the speakers further from the stage will be important to keep the perceived source at the stage.
Also, do you plan to specify some treatment for the room itself? Depending on the size of the space the theater may get more audio bang for their buck by mitigating the acoustic problems directly than by trying to overcome them electronically. This is especially true if there are audible echos.
The room is 73' X 56' with a 29ft. centerline peaked roof running front-to-back (73'). There are roof trusses and a lighting grid that form a flat "ceiling" at the 16ft. height. I'm gonna try to post the drawings...
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The room is 73' X 56' with a 29ft. centerline peaked roof running front-to-back (73'). There are roof trusses and a lighting grid that form a flat "ceiling" at the 16ft. height. I'm gonna try to post the drawings...
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I would start by making the room sound proper using architectural and dimensional modifications before even thinking about the audio reproduction system. (IE get the RT60 where it needs to be, make the room sound like a good theatre, then your audio system has a fighting chance at providing the quality that the audience deserves.)
nick
Yup, I would like to do as much acoustic treatment as possible before any system is installed. The building is up and finished so dimensions are what they are. Any treatments would be bandaids installed in the existing space. Does anybody know if system design software like EASE or Modeler allows treatments to be auditioned? I think the surfaces will remain drywall for the most part, I don't expect the powers that be will want to treat entire walls with absorptive materials so I'm thinking panels hung on the walls or objects/panels hung from the trusses. Do typical system design tools allow for measuring the affect of those types of absorption/diffusion treatments?
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Yup, I would like to do as much acoustic treatment as possible before any system is installed. The building is up and finished so dimensions are what they are. Any treatments would be bandaids installed in the existing space. Does anybody know if system design software like EASE or Modeler allows treatments to be auditioned? I think the surfaces will remain drywall for the most part, I don't expect the powers that be will want to treat entire walls with absorptive materials so I'm thinking panels hung on the walls or objects/panels hung from the trusses. Do typical system design tools allow for measuring the affect of those types of absorption/diffusion treatments?
Both EASE and Modeler include acoustic modeling functions that will give you both numbers and, if you have the right modules installed, the ability to use Auralization to create "acoustic renderings" of a space. The key isn't getting the data - it's knowing how to interpret it and the best way to act on it. Was there an acoustical consultant on the construction project?
I will preface the next paragraph with the caveat that the info is general - every space is different and requires a different approach. If the space is a black box, coverage of any number of creative seating layouts could be required.
In general for traditional systems, ceiling distribution can work to increase GBF, but the problem is imaging. If an audience member sees a person singing in a musical in front of them but the sound is coming from above, it brings them out of the play and lessens the theatrical experience. Usually the best system design approach for musical theater voice & drama speech reproduction is the good old center cluster. It has high intelligibility (if well designed) and a "pretty good" image for most of the audience. Adding the L-R to make an LCR system is usually for improved music reproduction.
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What is the seating arrangement, and is the arrangement variable? The drawing looks like the setup might be 270 at least, and you may be limited in your speaker configuration by what makes sense with the seating.
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Both EASE and Modeler include acoustic modeling functions that will give you both numbers and, if you have the right modules installed, the ability to use Auralization to create "acoustic renderings" of a space. The key isn't getting the data - it's knowing how to interpret it and the best way to act on it. Was there an acoustical consultant on the construction project?
This was a renovation of an existing building (a Dairy barn) so there was no consideration of acoustics, the size and shape were apparently based upon input from the cows ;-)
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What is the seating arrangement, and is the arrangement variable? The drawing looks like the setup might be 270 at least, and you may be limited in your speaker configuration by what makes sense with the seating.
The "stage" will be centered on the wall to the left in the plan view drawing, against the wall with the open storage/green room space behind it. The seating will not be permanent and so it could certainly be variable.
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Both EASE and Modeler include acoustic modeling functions that will give you both numbers and, if you have the right modules installed, the ability to use Auralization to create "acoustic renderings" of a space. The key isn't getting the data - it's knowing how to interpret it and the best way to act on it. Was there an acoustical consultant on the construction project?
I will preface the next paragraph with the caveat that the info is general - every space is different and requires a different approach. If the space is a black box, coverage of any number of creative seating layouts could be required.
In general for traditional systems, ceiling distribution can work to increase GBF, but the problem is imaging. If an audience member sees a person singing in a musical in front of them but the sound is coming from above, it brings them out of the play and lessens the theatrical experience. Usually the best system design approach for musical theater voice & drama speech reproduction is the good old center cluster. It has high intelligibility (if well designed) and a "pretty good" image for most of the audience. Adding the L-R to make an LCR system is usually for improved music reproduction.
Yeah, I hear you about the imaging, I understand that's an important trade-off. It will be a multi-purpose space so Live Music, theater, children's theater, lectures, wedding receptions, etc.
Maybe I end up with an overhead system as well as a conventional L&R or Center cluster...
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Yeah, I hear you about the imaging, I understand that's an important trade-off. It will be a multi-purpose space so Live Music, theater, children's theater, lectures, wedding receptions, etc.
Maybe I end up with an overhead system as well as a conventional L&R or Center cluster...
That makes things interesting now.
The live music aspect takes it to a whole other level depending on how much production you want to have available on hand at all times ready to cover the needs of incoming bands based on the type of bands you plan on bringing in.
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That makes things interesting now.
The live music aspect takes it to a whole other level depending on how much production you want to have available on hand at all times ready to cover the needs of incoming bands based on the type of bands you plan on bringing in.
Agree. Not sure yet how serious they want to go for the Live Music acts, need to give them a range. They may want to start modestly and build as they go...
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Guys-
I'm about to go down the rabbit hole of helping a new community theater spec and install a sound system. The space is rectangular, very reverberant with all hard reflective surfaces. I'll post dimensions and hopefully a drawing shortly.
My first question is this: Anybody have any experience with a ceiling-mounted distributed system for Theater instead of the typical L&R or LCR placement? It occurred to me that if I can get the speakers closer to the listener I might do better in the gain-before-feedback dept. keeping the energy off the walls and directing it towards the relatively absorptive audience.
Am I crazy or is this an approach worth investigating?
Stan
Somebody posted a response to this first post offering their services, I assume the moderators took it down since it's no longer here. If that member wants to PM me it would be cool.
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That makes things interesting now.
The live music aspect takes it to a whole other level depending on how much production you want to have available on hand at all times ready to cover the needs of incoming bands based on the type of bands you plan on bringing in.
Let me add to this:
A lot of smaller venues like yours that want to host live music will start by saying they only want small acts, solo, duo maybe a light weight trio but it always ramps up sometimes rather quickly to something like full blown 10 piece R&B bands.
Ask the powers that be up to what scale of live music production do they want to host and provide production for, anything above that said level the bands or promoter will need to bring in production.
Something else for them to consider, do they have anyone who will be dedicated to operating, maintaining, inventorying the sound system and equipment or do they think a new sound system will magically just start working when you turn on the power switch.
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Ok - so I do a fair bit of theater work and I simply fail to understand how sound reinforcement will be needed in a space this small... Maybe if they are doing a musical and the band can't control themselves...
I would reccomend 8 speakers on yokes with clamps. The sound designer for each show puts them where they need to be. The system is going to be environmental and used for effects mostly so in that sense the needs will change with each show.
For a musical, I don't see why anything more than an exploded center cluster with good pattern control to reinforce vocals on body mics would be needed.
Delay rings, distributed etc could be cool but I don't see it as being needed or anything more than an installer spending money a community theater might not have.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Ok - so I do a fair bit of theater work and I simply fail to understand how sound reinforcement will be needed in a space this small... Maybe if they are doing a musical and the band can't control themselves...
I would reccomend 8 speakers on yokes with clamps. The sound designer for each show puts them where they need to be. The system is going to be environmental and used for effects mostly so in that sense the needs will change with each show.
For a musical, I don't see why anything more than an exploded center cluster with good pattern control to reinforce vocals on body mics would be needed.
Delay rings, distributed etc could be cool but I don't see it as being needed or anything more than an installer spending money a community theater might not have.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That system concept would be fine, lots of yoke mount speakers to chose from and with his open frame style ceiling would make for a fairly easy install, I don't think they would really ever need to be moved, four per side covering the bleachers. The mixer, amps, wireless, ect. all could be in a rolling portable rack, when the shows over disconnect from the system and store it away.
That would work well for the theater productions, the proposed live music aspect is what adds a huge variable to the plan.