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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: Rick Alan on February 21, 2012, 11:46:20 AM
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Looking at getting new pair of subs. Need your opinion based on performance.
Danley TH118 vs Turbosound TSW 218.
Music is rock/hardcore/hip hop.
Venue: Outside and inside. Little of everything.
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Looking at getting new pair of subs. Need your opinion based on performance.
Danley TH118 vs Turbosound TSW 218.
Music is rock/hardcore/hip hop.
Venue: Outside and inside. Little of everything.
The Danley is smaller and lighter. Specs are too close to call without actual comparisons, so I'd go with the TH118. Of course, I'd go with a Danley sub most all of the time...
John
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Looking at getting new pair of subs. Need your opinion based on performance.
Danley TH118 vs Turbosound TSW 218.
Music is rock/hardcore/hip hop.
Venue: Outside and inside. Little of everything.
A good place to start is by looking at the measured response of both cabinets and their spec sheets and comparing what the graphs show. Both companies offer response curves (not everybody does).
You CANNOT simply go by the "simple numbers" on the spec sheets-since it is hard to figure out where they come from.
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Interesting topic as i own two Turbosound TSW 218DP and was thinking of replacing them with four TH118’s.
The reason for wanting to change the TSW 218’s is i am only a small company and don’t have a big work force to be able to lift these subs in and out the the van and into venues, So have been struggling with two of us and my back is paying the price!
Unfortunately iv’e never heard the TH118 so am unable to give a comparison.
Was hoping someone on here would be a able to go more in depth in comparing the specs by looking at the graphs and response curves as i don’t understand them.
Also would anyone know if the TH118 would be a good match for my Turbosound TA500DP tops?
http://www.turbosound.com/docs/products/TA-500DP.shtml
And lastly whats the best way to go with the Danley’s, Active or passive?
Thanks Rory
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Was hoping someone on here would be a able to go more in depth in comparing the specs by looking at the graphs and response curves as i don’t understand them.
And lastly whats the best way to go with the Danley’s, Active or passive?
Thanks Rory
Graphs like this are pretty easy to read-just follow the lines.
The way the cabinets are measured is different-Turbo spec using 1w/1m while Danley uses 2.83V/1M Both are legit ways and can be argued either way-you just have to compensate for the difference because the Danley is a 4 ohm cabinet.
So you subtract 3dB from the Danley rating to "lineup" with the Turbo rating.
Attached are both response graphs.
Let's look at 4 freq across the sub range.
30Hz The Danley is 100-3=97dB The Turbo is 90dB 7dB difference
40Hz The Danely is 105-3=102dB The Turbo is 99db 3dB difference
60Hz The Danley is 107-3=104dB The Turbo is 101db 3dB difference
90Hz The Danley is 110-3=107dB The Turbo is 104db 3dB difference
The power capacity is so close as to be equal and a non issue. So from 40Hz you would have to "push" twice as much power into the Turbo to be just as loud as the Danley. At 30Hz-you would have to "push" about 5 times as much power into the Turbo to be just as loud.
Size and weight are pretty easy to figure out.
Both are 4 ohm boxes with the same power rating-so amp power is the same.
Powered or active is really up to you and your situation. Each has it own set of advantages and disadvantages. The Danley has a 2400 watt amp for the active unit.
Hope that helps
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Graphs like this are pretty easy to read-just follow the lines.
The way the cabinets are measured is different-Turbo spec using 1w/1m while Danley uses 2.83V/1M Both are legit ways and can be argued either way-you just have to compensate for the difference because the Danley is a 4 ohm cabinet.
So you subtract 3dB from the Danley rating to "lineup" with the Turbo rating.
Attached are both response graphs.
Let's look at 4 freq across the sub range.
30Hz The Danley is 100-3=97dB The Turbo is 90dB 7dB difference
40Hz The Danely is 105-3=102dB The Turbo is 99db 3dB difference
60Hz The Danley is 107-3=104dB The Turbo is 101db 3dB difference
90Hz The Danley is 110-3=107dB The Turbo is 104db 3dB difference
The power capacity is so close as to be equal and a non issue. So from 40Hz you would have to "push" twice as much power into the Turbo to be just as loud as the Danley. At 30Hz-you would have to "push" about 5 times as much power into the Turbo to be just as loud.
Size and weight are pretty easy to figure out.
Both are 4 ohm boxes with the same power rating-so amp power is the same.
Powered or active is really up to you and your situation. Each has it own set of advantages and disadvantages. The Danley has a 2400 watt amp for the active unit.
Hope that helps
Thank you Ivan this helps a lot!
The Danley looks more efficient through out the frequency range.
Its a huge decision for me to change to the Danley’s and also very costly so want to have all the information possible.
My last issue is if my Turbosound tops will work well together with the TH118, The crossover and phase are already programmed to the dsp on the turbosound sub the match the tops, I am able to do this through an amplifier with out to much difficulty?
The uk company i am dealing with (I live in Jersey Channel islands) recommended i use the Hoellstern Delta 7.2 DSP amplifier which is able to power 4 TH118’s.
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The uk company i am dealing with (I live in Jersey Channel islands) recommended i use the Hoellstern Delta 7.2 DSP amplifier which is able to power 4 TH118’s.
Don't forget that according to the frequency response graphs a single TH118 is about 3dB louder than the TSW218 throughout the frequency range.
Mac
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My last issue is if my Turbosound tops will work well together with the TH118, The crossover and phase are already programmed to the dsp on the turbosound sub the match the tops, I am able to do this through an amplifier with out to much difficulty?
The uk company i am dealing with (I live in Jersey Channel islands) recommended i use the Hoellstern Delta 7.2 DSP amplifier which is able to power 4 TH118’s.
Here it gets a bit "tricky". The program you have would "assume" some physical positioning of the sub and the full range cabinet. When you move them to a different location (higher or wider or anything other than the position the program was derived at) the delay time-and possibly crossover points would change.
This will happen with ANY combination of loudspeakers-of the same manufacturer or different ones.
If the cabinets are in a particular position (let's say the full range is 15' off the ground and the sub is on the ground), then as YOU move around-the delay time will also change. Of course you cannot adjust the delay to get the same arrival at all positions-so you have to choose some "important" location and align to that.
I would not want to even make a guess at what the "proper" setting should be. Sorry. HOWEVER-I would start using the settings for the full range cabinet-then adjust the sub to that. I especially would not go with a lower highpass on the full range box than the suggested settings.
Something else to consider-when you change the relative level between the sub and the main (using whatever products) the ACOUSTICAL crossover points will change-therefore requiring some changes (even of the preset program) between the sub and full range product.
So in any case-some "on the fly" adjustments are going to be made "to taste"-since very rarely do people like the sound of a "flat" system-especially on the low freq side-in which the subs could be run as high as 20dB higher than the full range boxes. It would be really important to know how much of a "haystack" the program was designed for.
There are a lot of variables-and rarely is the preset correct for all applications.
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Rory, i have no doubt that the Hoelstern amp you are mentioning is an excellent piece of equipment, but i will never run any amp on sub duty at its full potential at 2 ohms as my rule. Maybe as an exception, but i would not design my rig around that kind of setup.
7.2 can do 4000W at 2 ohms and that will leave you with no real headroom because TH118 will take it and ask for more. You need at least 2500W per TH118. In my opinion anyway.
Regards
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Rory, i have no doubt that the Hoelstern amp you are mentioning is an excellent piece of equipment, but i will never run any amp on sub duty at its full potential at 2 ohms as my rule. Maybe as an exception, but i would not design my rig around that kind of setup.
7.2 can do 4000W at 2 ohms and that will leave you with no real headroom because TH118 will take it and ask for more. You need at least 2500W per TH118. In my opinion anyway.
Regards
I would disagree with that.
I would say the TH118 only NEEDS maybe 1 watt.
Now how much is REQUIRED TO REACH A PARTICULAR SPL AT A PARTICULAR DISTANCE is a different story.
Just because a loudspeaker can HANDLE a particular amount of power does not mean that it NEEDS that much power for specific need is a different story.
That is true of any loudspeaker. But with loudspeakers with high sensitivity loudspeakers, the NEEDED power is less than with lower sensitivity loudspeakers-to reach "SPL goal".
There is nothing wrong with running a loudspeaker with an amp that has a lower power rating (than the loudspeaker). ASSUMING the system remains linear-meaning you don't clip the amp. In fact loudspeakers really LIKE that.
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Ivan, i agree with you, but he is looking to replace 2 TSW218 with 4 TH118, which brings me to a conclusion that he needs a lot more spl in the sub region.
Wile you are correct that you don't need to operate them full tilt, people usually do just that.
If you get 4 TH118 and run them at half power, surely there are more compact offerings that can do the same. Isn't there?
My comment was more about using the amp at 2 ohm on a regular basis then the power that it will give to the subs.
Regards
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Ivan, i agree with you, but he is looking to replace 2 TSW218 with 4 TH118, which brings me to a conclusion that he needs a lot more spl in the sub region.
Wile you are correct that you don't need to operate them full tilt, people usually do just that.
If you get 4 TH118 and run them at half power, surely there are more compact offerings that can do the same. Isn't there?
My comment was more about using the amp at 2 ohm on a regular basis then the power that it will give to the subs.
Regards
Of course "half power" is only 3dB down. When you start looking at what is happening down around 30Hz, it can get interesting.
And then you have to consider what do you want-Do you want a sub that is "crusing along at "half power"-or one that is run at its maximum and on the edge of blowing up.
And then you also have to consider what happens to the distortion when you apply more power. As a general rule-the lower the power (in relation to the maximum the driver can handle) the lower the distortion.
So a driver that is run at half power is going to have less distortion than one run at full power.
I would agree and disagree that people run cabinets at full power. Some do-some don't. When you look at the overall sound reinforcement scene-I would say that most people/systems do not run anywhere near the max output.
If you look at the club scene-then it would probably be quite the opposite.
it all depends on the particular application/situation.